[BigG]

Anybody know why the African rifles were such huge bores in the blackpowder days? If you remember, guys like Sir Samuel Baker used 10/8/4 bore muzzle loading rifles with round ball to shoot pachyderms. In the transition to nitro calibers it was found that a .45 or even a .40 nitro express would do the same killing as the mammoth round balls. Why was that?

According to English Guns and Rifles, by George, it was because during the mid-nineteenth century a fad for fast twist rifling came over the English gunmakers. Rather than the classic 1:66" that stabilizes RB they reduced it to 1:36" or even faster. The problem was a patched ball would strip out of the rifling and go straight down the tube behaving like a musket ball. In other words, accuracy was a thing of the past. In order to get the ball to take the rifling, all sorts of schemes like belted balls, polygonal bores, etc. were attempted. To keep the ball from stripping, they reduced the powder charge, thus the velocity slowed and the killing power eroded. To get the killing power back, they made the ball larger until they reached the 8/4 bore level. Backed by a modest powder charge that provented stripping, these large 2 or 4 ounce payloads were able to put down jumbo.

The book does a good job of explaining how the wrong thinking about twist made necessary the huge bores of the classic dangerous game rifles. Thought you'd like to know.

[Steve Smith]

BTW, folks, one gentleman will have his 4 bore rifle at John Linebaugh's seminar this weekend.

[nextjoe]

Sir Samuel Baker had a 2 bore (!) that he called "Baby." I've heard that he was left more or less permanently punch-drunk from shooting it.

Best,
Joe

[Art Eatman]

BigG, I won't argue with the issue of the rifling, but the fact remains that there are serious limits to what velocities can be produced by black powder. I don't recall perzackly; 1,700 ft/sec? 1,800?

So, if you can't increase the velocity, ya gotta have bigger balls. How else could you break bone and get deep penetration on the larger African game? Remember, in the U.S., a .40 round-ball was considered a small game rifle. The famed Hawkens rifles were mostly in .50 and .54, IIRC. And, maybe, .58...

Art

[BigG]

2 Bore Eight ounces of lead will make any critter deathly sick. :uhoh: :p

Art, I disremember the exact details but they were using sumpin like two drams of powder to keep the huge balls from stripping out of the rifling. The proper load was supposed to be more like twelve drams IIRC. :o The ball was prolly doing like 300 fps.

The makers changed the rifling twist even though the 1:66 worked like a champ in the quest for long range accuracy as that was the big cahuna of prestige in those days. The famous sporting rifles could outshoot a Baker rifle at 300 yards but they had all the impact of a creampuff - not to mention the trajectory of a mortar - with the miniscule powder charges, therefore they had to shoot half a pound of lead to make up for the lack of velocity. All the makers did it: Westley Richards, Purdey, Manton, Forsythe, etc. This was the early days of percussion and the cap had not been standardized like it is today.

By the time of the 1850s or a little later they rediscovered the slow twist in time for the BP express cartridges which were comparatively small bore for the time - 500 caliber or so.

You will recall our US Hawken rifles in half inch bore were considered griz and buffler rifles in comparison to the Eastern kaintuck squirrel guns. ;)

[Dave Markowitz]

...there are serious limits to what velocities can be produced by black powder. I don't recall perzackly; 1,700 ft/sec? 1,800?

You can hit about 2,000 FPS at the muzzle with some of the lighter calibers and heavy (for caliber) charges. E.g., a .40 caliber rifle shooting a round ball could hit this.

The problem is that round balls are not very aerodynamic, and slow down very quickly.

[H&Hhunter]

Hey guys If'n your interested in the 4 bore check out this site.
www.African-hunter.com enter it go to search and enter 4-bore rifles.

If any of you guys now how to put that 4-bore article up so as the rest of us can see the picture of that beautifull 4-bore double as compared to a wimpy little 500-465NE that'd be real cool. That's one impressive piece of rifle!!!

1800 gr lead bullets launched by 4-500 gr of goex 2f otta put a hurting on just abpout anything I'd think.

[Art Eatman]

I was at a trade show at the Opryland Hotel in Nashville, some years back. There was a small exhibition of some of the Roy Acuff collection. Included were two four-bores, along with some rather strange-gauge European shotguns. I recall that at least one of the four-bores was of 1850s manufacture...

Four-bore is definitely a large hole that you wouldn't want staring at you.

Art

[Tamara]

1800 gr lead bullets launched by 4-500 gr of goex 2f otta put a hurting on just abpout anything I'd think.

...and it wouldn't do anything good to what you were shooting at, either. ;)

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Here's a few videos of shooting 8- and 4-bore rifles. One of 'em even gets loose! :eek:

Watch the guys who set-up behind the shooter to CATCH him when he goes flying. One of the spotters bounces a flying 4-bore off of his head. Ouch!

The Vintagers (http://www.gunshop.com/vintage6.htm) at Gunshop.com. (http://www.gunshop.com)

Ahhh, fine doubles...sigh...that I were fabulously wealthy...

[Preacherman]

H&H, is this the comparison you were talking about?


http://www.african-hunter.com/4bore_part1_p1p20v5no4.jpg
A 500/465 Nitro Express Holland & Holland compared to a 4-bore.


http://www.african-hunter.com/4bore_part1_p3p22v5no4.jpg


http://www.african-hunter.com/4bore_part2_p1p8v5no5.jpg


http://www.african-hunter.com/4bore_part2_p3p13v5no5.jpg


http://www.african-hunter.com/4bore_part2_p2p10v5no5.jpg
.465 solids recovered from an elephant and 4-bore hard lead alloy solids recovered from a buffalo.

[redneck]

Not really a reason for having those rifles you could use your arm for a cleanin rod on, but one reason there wasn't more SMALL stuff (less than .40) is probably because of manufacturing technology. When you have to bore the barrel on a huge hand powered drill, well....you have to have a drill that fits! The types of cutters and tooling available back then probably couldn't reliably cut a .30 diameter hole through 3 or 4ft of steel.
If ya can't go lighter and faster, go heavier.

[H&Hhunter]

Preacherman,
That's the one! Thanks padre.

[Mike Irwin]

"but one reason there wasn't more SMALL stuff (less than .40) is probably because of manufacturing technology."

Not at all, Redneck.

Power equipment was being used for boring and rifling barrels long before this time.

The British were leaders in this field, having the advantage offered by Huntsman's steel process, which allowed good quality tool steel for cutters used in powered machinery to be made easily, quickly, and cheaply.

There were two main reasons for not much in the way of sub .40-cal. firearms.

1. Black powder and round balls, and even conicals, puts some pretty severe limits on the amount of power you can get from a firearm. You can't up velocity easily, so the only alternative left is to increase the size of the projectile.

2. In blackpowder firearms, the smaller the bore, the more quickly it fouls out. In a .36 caliber squirrel gun you'll get two, maybe 3 shots before having to swab the bore.

As the bore gets larger, the greater the number of shots you can get out of it.

[redneck]

I wasn't really trying to say it was because they didn't have power tools, after all drilling a small hole by hand is a heck of a lot easier than drilling a big hole- less material to remove.
I meant that smaller tooling is harder to make, and harder to make work well. Its a lot easier to make something that doesn't flex or chatter big than it is small.

But all that about the fouling, and maximum pressure/expansion speed of black powder makes sense and had to have a lot more influence than anything else.