Ballistic gelatin test results : .38 Special Treasury Load and 158gr Nyclad HP


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Brass Fetcher
May 12, 2007, 02:11 AM
Special thanks to Carr & the folks at Franklin Gun Shop in Athens, GA for their sponsorship of this test.

Cartridge : Various .38 Special

Firearm : .38 Special revolver with 1 7/8" barrel length

Block calibration : All depths corrected (From 10.7cm @ 610 ft/sec)

Shot 1 - Winchester 110gr +P+ SJHP "Treasury Load". Impacted at 1064 ft/sec, penetrated to 8.0". Bullet recovered at 0.689" average diameter and 109.7gr weight.

Shot 2 - Federal 158gr +P Nyclad SWC-HP. Impacted at 789 ft/sec, penetrated to 13.1". Bullet recovered at 0.543" average diameter and 159.6gr weight.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=57997&stc=1&d=1178950067
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=57998&stc=1&d=1178950067

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The Unknown User
May 12, 2007, 03:02 AM
Cool. :D

I'm new to the idea of ballistic gelatin. I'm guessing that it is supposed to replicate the resistance of human flesh?

I'm curious, though: how can a bullet that small generate a wound cavity that wind? Is it just the force of the bullet going through and forcing everything out of its way?

ArchAngelCD
May 12, 2007, 03:07 AM
Thank you for the test...

Only 1 round of each? It's hard to judge the reliability of the results from only 1 round, no??

Brass Fetcher
May 12, 2007, 02:53 PM
@Rob87 - Thank you for the reply. Ballistic gelatin almost exactly replicates the resistance of mammal muscle tissue to penetration by a bullet. The density of the tissue is important, as this is the contribution that the target makes to bullet expansion (muscle=gelatin in this regard) and the kinematic viscosity is the same (indicates the amount of drag on the bullet by the fluid (muscle)).

Gordon
May 12, 2007, 03:37 PM
Thanks again!:)
I shot many 110 grain +p+ loads at Govt. expense when they first came out. I still have a few hundred. They are a spectacular dog and racoon load, especially out of a 4 or 6 " gun :what: They pretty much equal the old Super Vel Police load in that weight, they chronograph about the same.
I shot them out of 2" Colt's , mostly and also 2 1/2" model 66's and saw a few people shot with them- ugly wounds and the perps went down pretty fast.:evil:
They wore out my Colt Agents until I got wise to them being a light .357 load!
I carried the 158 Nyclad also and considered it's performance at least equal to the 158 grain SWCHP.I slaughtered quite a few animals with those 158 grain loads which it does very well.;) I think the latest Rem. 158 SWCHP is a little superior, and your recent test supports that.

Jim March
May 12, 2007, 07:22 PM
The Federal is very, very slow. Remmie and Winnie 158+Ps are at least 50 to 75fps faster as is the new Buffbore standard pressure.

Another typical Federal powder-charge wimp-out.

ugaarguy
May 12, 2007, 10:52 PM
The Federal is very, very slow. Remmie and Winnie 158+Ps are at least 50 to 75fps faster as is the new Buffbore standard pressure.

Another typical Federal powder-charge wimp-out.
Shot 2 - Federal 158gr +P Nyclad SWC-HP. Impacted at 789 ft/sec, penetrated to 13.1". Bullet recovered at 0.543" average diameter and 159.6gr weight.
Yet, from JE223's website http://www.brassfetcher.com/158%20grain%20+P%20lead%20HP%20(test%202).html;
Cartridge : Remington 158 grain +P lead hollowpoint ('FBI load') (Load # R38S12)

Firearm : .38 Special revolver with 1 7/8" barrel length.

Calibration : All depths corrected (From 9.8cm @ 609 ft/sec)

Shot 1 = 11.5" penetration.

Shot 2 = 11.5" penetration.

Shot 3 = 11.8" penetration.

Shot 4 = 11.3" penetration.

Shot 5 = 11.0" penetration.

Average final diameter (5 bullet average) = 0.592"
So, despite being slow, the Federal load expanded about .050 less while managing to penetrate about 1.5" deeper than the Remington load when both were fired from a 1&7/8" bbl revolver. Might be slow but it appears to work.

Jim March
May 12, 2007, 11:25 PM
Which means expansion is delayed. That's the only explanation of these numbers.

Total energy DOES matter. It's only one factor, with depth and expansion being two others.

Put another way: even if this slug has "enough" energy to do the job on a direct hit, it's got more or less nothing left over. What about heavier clothes? Minor barriers?

So. I ain't loading this into my guns unless it's all I had available.

Brass Fetcher
May 12, 2007, 11:39 PM
Expansion happens within 0.5" for all bullets. This is because the stagnation pressure is dependent on bullet velocity, all else being equal. Higher bullet velocity = higher pressure acting on the hollowpoint cavity/nose of the bullet... the higher the pressure, well, the more 'oomph' acting to deform the bullet jacket. The pressure only decreases as the bullet slows down.

ARTiger
May 13, 2007, 12:01 AM
The 'ol light and fast vs. heavy and slow. In this case light and slow vs. heavy and slower. For a bullet as light as 110 to have any useful purpose at all it needs 1200 fps even from a 2" bbl.

Jim March
May 13, 2007, 01:34 AM
OK....so...what am I missing?

The Federal certainly isn't "maxing out" it's expansion. Which is in some ways good, if you shoot it out of 4" or more barrels.

I have to still suspect it's marginal in the energy department?

kmrcstintn
May 13, 2007, 01:29 PM
nice test...I have some of the Federal Nyclad 158's stashed and loaded in my CCW and home defense revolvers; I was getting mixed feedback whenever I researched it on the net; I can see why the Federal Nyclads served the NYPD until Federal decided to stop making them...

the naked prophet
May 13, 2007, 04:42 PM
I'd kinda like to see compared the .38 +P Speer Gold Dot 135 grain short barrel load versus the Remington 158 grain LSWCHP.

ugaarguy
May 13, 2007, 09:11 PM
I'd kinda like to see compared the .38 +P Speer Gold Dot 135 grain short barrel load versus the Remington 158 grain LSWCHP.
From JE223's website;
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Speer%20135%20grain%20GoldDot%20Short%20Barrel.html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/158%20grain%20+P%20lead%20HP%20(test%202).html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/38special2inchbarrel.html

351 WINCHESTER
May 13, 2007, 10:06 PM
The Treasury load was, and still is, an outstanding load for a steel frame revolver. It is murder on airweights though.

the naked prophet
May 15, 2007, 11:30 AM
D'OH

jetman
May 18, 2007, 08:45 PM
I just bought a box of Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. +P HP for my Colt Cobra in 38 Special. The box didn't say anything about "short barrel" on the box, and the guy at the gunshop looked at me like he obviously had never heard of such a thing. Is this the load you're referring to, or is there a load actually labeled as a "short barrel" round???

Jim March
May 19, 2007, 04:11 PM
The 357 "lite magnum" variant of this round with the same projectile says "short barrel" on the box.

ARTiger
May 19, 2007, 04:21 PM
Speer recently changed the box design. Doesn't say "short barrel" but it is. Their only 135 grain bullet in .357 diameter is the short barrel version which is loaded in .38 spl. +P and .357 Magnum.

SlamFire1
May 19, 2007, 07:27 PM
I forgot the thread, but there was a Georgia Coroner who started a long and interesting thread of what he saw on his table. One lesson I remember was that lighter bullets will deflect off ribs and other bones. Heavier bullets were less likely to deflect. The Coroner was very positive about big bullets, even if they were slow.

I personnally prefer 158 bullets in the 38 than 125's. And if there was a good 200 grain bullet in 38 Special, I would carry that. (assuming Point of Impact was close to Point of aim)

DawgFvr
May 19, 2007, 08:11 PM
I'll stay with the Corbon DPX 110 gr. I like the lighter, faster, always expand...low recoil: quicker on the follow-up shot, copper-top round.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/110%20grain%20Cor-Bon%20DPX.html

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