91 year old WW2 Vet beaten viciously for car.


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Kali Endgame
May 12, 2007, 08:28 AM
Here is the link. (http://video.aol.com/video/caught-91-year-old-viciously-beaten-on-tape/1904670) Warning Disturbing.

At a time when there are so few of those old, brave warriors left, this makes me sick. What really got to me was the people who just stood around and did nothing.

To keep this gun related. My question is: due to the mans advanced age and frailty, is using a gun legal to defend the Vet? Although, the man only used his fists, is this a situation warranting the use of a gun?

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Erebus
May 12, 2007, 08:33 AM
Absolutely disgusting. I can't believe that croud of people just let that guy beat him like that.

Lupinus
May 12, 2007, 08:41 AM
What really got to me was the people who just stood around and did nothing.

That's because as a society we have been coached to stand by call 911 don't get involved because doing so is likely to jsut make the situation worse and complicate things, and then be a good witness. Personally I am more willing to complicate things for the police then to be a good witness at a murder, rape, etc trial. No one should play cop, but there are times when common decency come into play and frankly if I stood by and watched an old man be beaten half to death or a woman rapped I couldn't look at myself in the mirror, but I damn sure could after killing the bastard.

gyp_c2
May 12, 2007, 08:51 AM
...maybe they were all in on it...like a pack...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

Winter Borne
May 12, 2007, 09:01 AM
It is reprehensible that WE as a society allow this to happen. I am sick about this and all of the other violent crime that is allowed to go on in our country un-checked and even apologized for by our school system, politicians, and feel good social programs that look to make excuses for these criminals and apply light sentences if they are even caught. I am just as guilty here, being a “good” person who moved away from NYC to a gated community in VA where I won’t have to have my family exposed to this type of crime, rather than stay and try to clean it up.

The problem seems almost insurmountable to me though. The way I see it, as long as we have a huge welfare state that grows up to believe that they are owed something for nothing, and get violent when they don’t get it, we will never break the cycle of this cancer in our country. It seems that violence is excused everywhere now in our inner cities. As if it’s just another inconvenient fact of life that we all must now live with. It seems to me that our courts often plea bargain these crimes down. It also seems to me that a huge proportion of crime is committed over and over again by the same criminals.

I am not a LEO and perhaps I have no idea what I’m talking about, but perhaps, WE should be taking to the streets in peaceful demonstrations in all of our inner cities and demand that crime be punished so extremely that it be almost eradicated.

I say we ZUMBO crime. We need to make every elected politician, judge, district attorney, and police department know we are fed up with these animals roaming free and preying on our citizens.

Just a thought, but if WE, as a society cannot protect our weakest among us, but rather allow them to fall prey to vicious predators, then WE deserve no less than what we have. Crime will continue to encroach on our lives, and we’ll build bigger walls and carry more ammo. This must end, or surely it will end us.


mk

Isildur
May 12, 2007, 09:23 AM
These incidents are a mirror, painfully reminding us of the society we live in. I absolutely agree that this violence was enabled by those folks advocating "Do nothing", "There are professionals in this country, you don't need to get involved"-**** it! Those professionals who might be able to respond better than I are not there!

In my opinion just complaining leads nowhere. Organizing a protest march is a good thing but hey, what's about using Web 2.0? There are thousands of little banners "against racism", "against guns" etc. why not initiate something like that in favor of a free, self-defending society? We could place it in signatures, on our hompages....

TCB in TN
May 12, 2007, 10:59 AM
That makes me sick, that is just as bad, maybe even worse than the video of the girl beat by that PO in Chicago. The individual who beat that old man is a dangerous animal, and as such should either be permanently caged or put down because he certainly should not be on the streets.

Crunker1337
May 12, 2007, 11:43 AM
Brought a tear to my eye.

What's even more disgusting than the fact that that criminal beat a 91-year-old was that five people stood around and watched. If all of them jumped in I'm sure they could have given the gangster what he deserved.

I hope the police catch him.

The Unknown User
May 12, 2007, 12:07 PM
That's because as a society we have been coached to stand by call 911 don't get involved because doing so is likely to jsut make the situation worse and complicate things, and then be a good witness. Personally I am more willing to complicate things for the police then to be a good witness at a murder, rape, etc trial. No one should play cop, but there are times when common decency come into play and frankly if I stood by and watched an old man be beaten half to death or a woman rapped I couldn't look at myself in the mirror, but I damn sure could after killing the bastard.Actually, it's an observable psychological effect aptly named the "bystander effect." All it takes is one person to break it, however. It happens because people learn the "correct" way to respond to a situation by watching others. So, when you present a large group of people with a situation they've never been in before, they don't know what to do. So they all look to each other for signs of how to behave, and see everyone else standing there going "What?" It makes it easier to oppose normative social influence once one person goes against it.

So, if you're ever in a stressful situation like that, make sure you step out of line and become the "leader" of the group.

Web
May 12, 2007, 12:33 PM
But for most people physical violence plays no part in their day-to-day lives. How are they going to be the first to step into that situation and face getting punched by this guy themselves?

Ghengis Kahn
May 12, 2007, 12:52 PM
the crowd should have dragged the guy off the old man and beat him to death.

I can't believe that some people would even consider that over-the-top, i mean, if i'm standing there and some guy tries to pick a fight with me i'm going to "non-THR criminal action removed by Mod". "proportional response" is for "vulgar non-THR term removed by Mod".

obxned
May 12, 2007, 01:23 PM
This is a good example of why decent people need to be armed. Sometimes being a good witness is just not good enough!

I would have no faith in the other bystanders helping if I intervened, and I'm too old and smart to try to fight a younger thug who probably has a knife or gun or whatever on him, particularly with AIDS being a possibility. That leaves just one reasonable, moral thing to do.

Biker
May 12, 2007, 01:33 PM
I'm a big time MOB type of guy, but I will not sit and watch while the old, infirm, young, women or animals are physically abused. It triggers something in me that I can't control and don't really want to. I get downright primal. Never could stand a bully.

Biker

TheOld Man
May 12, 2007, 01:42 PM
The problem is that, in many jurisdictions, if you step in to help, you can be charged with Assault against the perp. PLUS, the perp and/or their families can sue you into bankruptcy.:banghead:

hankdatank1362
May 12, 2007, 01:44 PM
Someone on this board a while back referred to a moment of anger he had as a "Hulk smash!" (i.e. the comic book character) kind of moment.

I think seeing something like this would provoke a "hulk smash" moment from myself. I wouldn't even touch my gun, unless it turns out the BG had a knife or a gun himself. I'd just do my honest best to ruin his life (can't say kill here) with my bare hands.

Biker
May 12, 2007, 01:46 PM
True enough, Old Man, but sometimes you just have to do the Right Thing and worry about the ass-whuppin' later.
Least, that's the way I see things.

Biker:)

carpenter
May 12, 2007, 01:57 PM
is using a gun legal to defend the Vet?

Depends upon the state in which you live. Some CCW laws are written to allow it. Some forbid it. Of course, some states won't even issue a CCW so the question there is moot.

You'd bloody well better know exactly what your law says before you even opt to carry. There's no excuse to carry concealed, thus accepting the implicit and explicit liabililty of such, and not know the law.

Crunker1337
May 12, 2007, 02:24 PM
the crowd should have dragged the guy off the old man and beat him to death.

I can't believe that some people would even consider that over-the-top, i mean, if i'm standing there and some guy tries to pick a fight with me i'm going to shoot him dead. "proportional response" is for ******.

I don't think beating him to death would be justified. I leave judgment up to God, the only reason I'd step in is because that guy is a direct threat to the vet. I don't dish out punishment, I just try to stop crimes in the act or in preemptive strikes.

If you're willing to kill someone for trying to pick a fight with you then so be it; you'll be carted off to jail. I'll defend myself if necessary, but my intent is always to survive; not necessarily to kill or injure anyone else. I don't think it's bad to do either of those things if there's no other way though.

dcoop
May 12, 2007, 07:51 PM
I would have shot that SOB. Words cannot describe my disgust for that individual:fire:

Cosmoline
May 12, 2007, 07:58 PM
It is reprehensible that WE as a society allow this to happen

We?? I wasn't there. The folks watching were almost certainly in on it. Just look at them.

WE should be taking to the streets in peaceful demonstrations

We shouldn't be LEAVING the city to the nogoodniks in the first place, as we have been for generations now. I cruise the streets of a dangerous neighborhood every day. Lots of folks, including a lot of people on this forum, have told me I should move to someplace safer with gates and green lawns. Not only would such a place kill me with boredom, retreating to these suburban enclaves is a cowardly act. Peaceful demonstration is pointless. We need to come back to the city and we need to be ARMED.

I don't think beating him to death would be justified. I leave judgment up to God, the only reason I'd step in is because that guy is a direct threat to the vet. I don't dish out punishment, I just try to stop crimes in the act or in preemptive strikes.

True, a mob beating him to death would not have been justified. But from the angle of the video, he is wailing on an old man while pinning him between the door edge and another car. That's imminent deadly peril in spades. Unless something else was going on there that doesn't show up in the video, it would have been a perfectly good shot to blow his head off with no warning. Of curse, that being Detroit the powers that be would still probaby try to convict you of murder. But that's another matter.

if you step in to help, you can be charged with Assault against the perp. PLUS, the perp and/or their families can sue you into bankruptcy.

That's easy to avoid. Simply never try to stop a fist fight with fists, and don't try to stop one at all unless someone is about to kill another. If it's just mutual combat, it's a matter for the police, NOT you. If it's a young guy pounding an old guy to his death, kill the young guy to stop it. But don't lay hand on him. You lay hand on him and YOU become part of the fight. Everything gets murky after that.

Jack19
May 12, 2007, 08:04 PM
I grew up in Detroit, and policed there in the early 80s (as did most of my male relatives; from the late 1920s on.) Detroit was then, and is now, a **** hole; whenever I go back, I can't wait to leave.

My father-in-law, is an 83 year old WW2 vet. The bastard that beat this guy needs to be shot on sight.

06
May 12, 2007, 08:23 PM
My bestest buddy from the "Crotch"'s mother was brutally beaten in a purse snatching in a shopping center in North Charlotte, NC. We hunted for him for several days. I made myself a promise that if I ever witnesssed anything like that I would put a sudden stop to it even if it meant prison time for me. Someone has to take a stand-someone has to have the guts to put a halt to assults on the helpless-or anyone. There were about 20 people in that shopping center and no one-NO ONE- so much as even shouted at the perp. The police finally got there 43 minutes after the call. She spent nearly a week in the hospital with facial, rib, and collar bone fractures. A sad commentary on "people" when they will not help an elderly woman being terribly assaulted. The perp dragged her about 75 feet before finally kicking her loose. She had the church money in it that she was about to deposit. wc

theken206
May 12, 2007, 08:23 PM
I would enjoy bouncing that gentlmens head off the ground a few times after I knocked him there and then applying some torque onto a few of his limbs till some stuff goes snap crackle pop.

that was wrong on so many levels but im neither shocked at the casuall violence of the perp {he would have done that to anyone he thought he could have,a pretty much helpless old man,your 16 yo teenage daughter who ever}it nor suprised that no one would do a thing to help.

Dorryn
May 12, 2007, 09:03 PM
Society has changed. We are no longer able to defend the innocent by any means. If we meet force with force we are subject to laws that make it "fair" for the criminal, the bully, the hooligan that subjects the elderly and infirm to brutal violence.

For everyone who said they would have shot the guy beating the vet, good for you. For the rest who would have not gotten involved for fear of being sued, going to jail, or simply just looking out for Number 1, shame on you. You disgust me.

Elza
May 12, 2007, 09:04 PM
TheOld Man: The problem is that, in many jurisdictions, if you step in to help, you can be charged with Assault against the perp.Not to mention the possibility of being charged with a “hate crime”.

TCB in TN
May 12, 2007, 09:13 PM
If hating to see an old man beaten by a young punk POS constitutes a hate crime, then I am guilty as charged.

joab
May 12, 2007, 09:14 PM
if you step in to help, you can be charged with Assault against the perp. I'd like to see the statutes that prevent a citizen from intervening in the commission of a violent crime that would most certainly result in death or grave bodily injury.

I'm sorry but to me this is simply an unsupported excuse not to do the right thing

The folks watching were almost certainly in on it. Just look at them.That would certainly be something to keep in mind if you ever find yourself observing a situation like this.
And another good reason to draw and not get tangled up with the obvious target

Kacerdias
May 12, 2007, 09:43 PM
I think I just threw up a little.

I don't know much about deadly force laws in Michigan but as I read Texas law drawing would have been justified since A) disparity of force was present: 91 year old physically frail man vs a 20 something healthy scumbag, B) repeated blows to the head like that CAN EASILY be lethal: this is now deadly force, and C) Texas law allows you to use deadly force on behalf of another if you would have been justified in using it if you were in the victim's shoes. Robbery + Assault & Battery - either one qualifies.

All that aside, if ventillating that creep on the spot means I'd be arrested and charged with murder then I would GLADLY do the time. I concider it more than a fair trade for this vet's service to the country. It's men like him that ensured the US and most of Europe aren't speaking German right now. Never forget that. :fire:

Tokugawa
May 12, 2007, 11:01 PM
A bullet is way too good for that POS. A stake and a wood pile.

Stevie-Ray
May 12, 2007, 11:06 PM
Detroit is a sewer, surely, but helping in this case probably would have gotten you some type of award for bravery from hizzoner Kwame Kilpatrick. I've seen that happen before. Had I been one of that crowd, that punk would have gotten a screamin kick in the spine. That would have been too easy as the perp never looked behind him. It would have been a pleasure.

coelacanth
May 12, 2007, 11:32 PM
look at the video again and you can't help but come to the conclusion that most if not all of that crowd knew each other. They are all complicit in that crime whether they did or not. If you come upon an accident with injuries and you drive away you are guilty of the crime of failure to stop and render aid. If you stand around and watch while and old man is beaten senseless by a street punk and do nothing you are an accessory to the crime in my judgement.

Ghengis Kahn
May 13, 2007, 01:08 AM
"I don't think beating him to death would be justified. I leave judgment up to God, the only reason I'd step in is because that guy is a direct threat to the vet. I don't dish out punishment, I just try to stop crimes in the act or in preemptive strikes.

If you're willing to kill someone for trying to pick a fight with you then so be it; you'll be carted off to jail. I'll defend myself if necessary, but my intent is always to survive; not necessarily to kill or injure anyone else. I don't think it's bad to do either of those things if there's no other way though."

After further review, the call stands. Drag him off the poor guy, pin his ass onto the ground, and beat the hell out of him, break every bone in his ****ing body, until you're damn sure he's dead. The cops got a problem with that? They can ****ing deal with it. In War 2 aiding Jews was illegal in Germany. Men with character don't give a flying **** about "law", only about whats right, since the two are often not the same thing.

F4GIB
May 13, 2007, 01:22 AM
is using a gun legal to defend the Vet?

Yes.

ArfinGreebly
May 13, 2007, 01:29 AM
Dude.

Welcome to THE HIGH ROAD where we generally avoid outright calls for anyone's death.

It's understood that sometimes violence may be required to interdict a violent crime.

The banger is scum, and we are pretty much all on board with that.

There's a natural impulse to want to punish that kind of thing.

There is, however, a marked difference between STOPPING a crime and PUNISHING a crime.

Do what has to be done to STOP the crime.

Leave judgement and punishment up to the guys who have that job.

Our job, as citizens, is to avoid and where necessary actively prevent crime.

Yeah, a guy like that is easy to want to harm, but justice is a different domain.

Now, it's completely understandable if stopping the crime results in some collateral damage. Hey, stuff happens.

When the people we've hired to sweep up these messes arrive, that's when we change hats and become good witnesses. Good enough that Mr. Toughguy banger will have the opportunity to explain himself to his "peers" during his extended stay at the Hotel Greybar.

Sometimes, when stepping in to prevent a murder, one is attacked by the would-be murderer and one must perforce defend oneself and, depending on where you live, there are various acceptable levels of force that may be employed in 1) the defense of one's self and 2) the defense of another.

But the primary objective is to STOP the crime.

Jorg Nysgerrig
May 13, 2007, 02:40 AM
ESPECIALLY when they darn near gave there lives for this country. What stand around and wait for the judge to show up and punish him

I bet if you ask that veteran whether he believed he was fighting for an America where the ideals of justice and due process are valued or one where a mob-mentality of vigilante justice ruled, his answer would be the former.

He's probably also be ashamed of your comments, despite fighting for your right to say them.

While the attacker should have been stopped, that should have been the goal. To stop the attack, not retribution.

collateral
May 13, 2007, 02:41 AM
this video honestly made me want to throw up.
People who attack the elderly are cowards, nothing more.
That scumbags obviously has a pathetic life if he needs to pummel an old vet and take his car to feel like a man.

He should be locked up, and never released. Crimes like this are unforgiveable.

Plink
May 13, 2007, 02:47 AM
What really got to me was the people who just stood around and did nothing.


It disgusts me that the lowlifes target the elderly like that. It also disgusts me that people won't act. I remember back in the 80's when actress Rebecca Shaefer was stabbed to death with a gang of people standing around watching. It's the same thing that happened when the shooter was on the train shooting then reloading then shooting some more. Nobody will act! It's like they're all waiting for someone else to do something first. Though they'd probably still stand back and let the poor brave SOB fight a solo fight rather than help anyway.

Davo
May 13, 2007, 03:09 AM
We raise sheep, and then wonder why they act that way. Sadly we are taught that acting like a sheep dog will get us in trouble. The wolves win.

In my years on the street as a medic, nothing has upset me more then witnessing the pain, and anguish that these bastards cause our elderly.
In southern Kali, home invasions against the elderly are common place, especially old ladies. I hate this.

Plink
May 13, 2007, 03:16 AM
I hate it too. The cowardly bastards are always raping and mugging elderly ladies here. My mom is elderly and becoming quite frail, so I worry about her a lot. Of course she wields a mean revolver and has had a CHL since they first came out, so I pity the idiot who tries.

geekWithA.45
May 13, 2007, 08:18 AM
Listen up.

As the keepers and bearers of arms, we each individually have a great deal of power.

With that power comes responsibility.

One of those responsibilities is knowing the moral, ethical and legal constraints on the defense of yourself or others, which does NOT extend to being judge, jury and executioner.

Those story lines are for the ignoranti who write for Hollywood, and those who really need some more time for reflection on the responsibilities that come with being and armed citizen.


We hold ourselves to higher standards than hollywood and yahoos.

We are responsible armed citizens, not vigilantes.

Step up, or step out.

straightShot
May 13, 2007, 08:22 AM
Sick, sick, sick.

Beating on a defenseless elderly man is simply sick.

joab
May 13, 2007, 08:46 AM
disparity of force was present: 91 year old physically frail man vs a 20 something healthy scumbag,Point of clarification
The disparity of force would have to be between you and the BG not between the BG and the vet in order for you to use that as justification for drawing or shooting

If you are a 200 lb man and see a 91year old vet beating a kid with a stick you would have a hard time using disparity of force as justification for shooting the vet

Tis was a man willing and capable of inflicting a brutal attack against a helpless person
The crowds reaction would lead a reasonable person to suspect that they may be complicit in the attack
That would justify, in my mind, disparity of force

hankdatank1362
May 13, 2007, 09:33 AM
Those were his "homies" standing around watching.


As it stands now, the best thing we can hope for is that the vet has a 300lb grandson (with a penchant for man-lovin') who happens to reside in the same prison as the guy who attacked his gramps is going to.

hso
May 13, 2007, 09:36 AM
Folks,

We're not a lynch mob and acting like one gains no one anything.

Defending a third party who is under threat of death or grave bodily injury may be a positive defense to prosecution, but it's a decision every individual has to make. It's not to be done in the heat of the moment and it's not a decision that should be left to the last moment.

Acting to beat or kill a criminal after the threat has been stopped is itself criminal behavior and, again, does no one any good. Holding them, sure, but not "metting out justice":rolleyes: .

Consider that by acting after the threat to the old gentleman has stopped you take yourself out of the equation for all future opportunities to provide help to anyone ever again because you've put yourself in jail. How do you benefit, how does society benefit and how does the next guy who needs your help benefit if you gave in to anger and the urge for revenge?

sadhvacman
May 13, 2007, 10:10 AM
my granddad is 90 years old and a wwII vet. That s--- absolutely enrages me! That gets me as upset as sex crimes on precious little children does. I can promise you this, he would have had to have killed me had I been there. The only honorable thing to do would have been to beat the ever lovin' s--- out of that big bad gangsta. what a tough guy!! I am so pissed off, I knew I shouldnt have watched it!!

DigitalWarrior
May 13, 2007, 10:43 AM
I don't think beating him to death would be justified. I leave judgment up to God, the only reason I'd step in is because that guy is a direct threat to the vet. I don't dish out punishment, I just try to stop crimes in the act or in preemptive strikes.

(urban legend)There was a professor once who told his class that he was going to prove the non-existance of God. He said that faith was stupid, and if there was a God, God would knock him off the podium in the next five minutes. About two minutes later a student gets up walks up to the professor and punches him in the face, then kicks him off the podium. Professor says "what are you doing?" Student says "I am a US Marine, God was busy, so he put me here to take care of this for him."(/urban legend)

There really was a danger to the Vet's life. I would have stopped it as quickly as I knew how.

Semper Fi
DigitalWarrior

PS It would be the funniest comedy skit ever to see a trial where they accuse me of a hate crime... I am a prince Hall Mason. That idea gives me the giggles.

Tokugawa
May 13, 2007, 10:55 AM
The sick thing is the fact that there is a whole cultures out there, where this sort of action is OK. And they are multiplying way faster than the rest of us.

sterling180
May 13, 2007, 11:12 AM
It is absolutely disgraceful,that a 92 year old person doesn't feel safe in society anymore,without fear of attack.People like that stupid dim****,who attacked that man,should have the crap kicked out of them by the cops.It seems that in most of western society thesedays,that the law is on the criminals side.My grandma never lived to that age and she was very frail at 85 years of age,so that old timer,at least was in excellent shape,to have survived that savage beating,where he could have died

I hope that someone somewhere gives that punk a good 'roughing up'.

Isildur
May 13, 2007, 11:26 AM
I don't think it would be a good idea to beat this guy up, I mean what purpose does it serve? Vengeance?
What really concerns me are two points.
First even most criminals usually do not beat up old people, disabled people, children or women(at least pregnant women or women with little children) this folk apparently didn't care about that. And second these goddamn "good" witnesses standing near by and doing nothing. When you witness such an incident you have got the choice between 911 and 1911 and it should be clear what do first.

Afy
May 13, 2007, 04:04 PM
It is the world like this, which makes me wonder sometimes if I would really want to live in a world like this.

The ONE reason I will never have children.

Deanimator
May 13, 2007, 04:31 PM
My question is: due to the mans advanced age and frailty, is using a gun legal to defend the Vet? Although, the man only used his fists, is this a situation warranting the use of a gun?
You bet.

There was a large Samoan guy named Tavai who did essentially the same thing to a Texas CCW holder who was much younger than this victim. Due to the savageness of the attack, the fact that the victim was trapped in his car, and the disparity in size between the attacker and the victim, Tavai's shooting was ruled justifiable homicide.

Deanimator
May 13, 2007, 04:47 PM
That makes me sick, that is just as bad, maybe even worse than the video of the girl beat by that PO in Chicago.
The beating of the barmaid by Officer Anthony Abbate is worse than this beating for the simple reason that while both are crimes, the cop's actions undermined the entire "justice" system. Some level of violent crime is inevitable, but when those allegedly charged with fighting crime commit it, it's like an auto-immune disease like AIDS, causing the body politic to destroy itself. Remember, there were passive witnesses to the Abbate beating too. Why? At least some of them were afraid not only of Abbate, but of his comrades in the Chicago PD.

That having been said, I wish the old man had been carrying and had shot that animal to death. Here in the Cleveland area, we recently had a man do exactly that to an armed robber who was out on parole for armed robbery.

Ghengis Kahn
May 13, 2007, 08:53 PM
while i appreciate the need for law and order, and i also agree that THR is a great place that should remain devoid of dumbasses, i also believe that my suggestion is valid.

However, as a newb to this site, i apologize if my comments were out of line and i will remember to curb my temper in the future.

joab
May 13, 2007, 08:56 PM
Again the disparity of force between the victim and the assailant has no bearing on whether you can shoot, unless we are talking about the victim doing the shooting.

wjustinen
May 13, 2007, 09:52 PM
If the assailant has the opportunity, ability, and is acting in a manner that threatens grievous bodily harm or death lethal force is justified in defense of person. This rule is generally applicable throughout the U.S. and Canada. Obviously, if you are able to stop the attack without using lethal force it is preferable to do so.

In this case, the 91 year old victim is certainly justified in using lethal force. (My opinion)

You or I probably wouldn't be justified in using lethal force.

Guy B. Meredith
May 13, 2007, 11:01 PM
Bad Guy caught. See video in top list; I don't know how to link to the video.

www.cnn.com

civilian
May 14, 2007, 01:58 PM
under most lethal force statutes, this man's advanced age and the visciousness of the attack would likely allow for the use of force in protection of a third party. shame of the 5 duds who stood by watching this happen and did nothing, and then let the accomplice walk away and without even attempting to detain her. our society is one big cluster fck.

msimonds
May 14, 2007, 02:02 PM
I too would have shot that POS in a second, What is our society coming too

fishingjld
May 14, 2007, 02:10 PM
i think it is sad as well that they allowed a older man to be beaten and then the guy just drove away as if nothing happened. those people are cowards.

helpless
May 14, 2007, 02:14 PM
I just saw this on the news. I wanted to throw up.

tuckerdog1
May 14, 2007, 03:47 PM
Hard to not get angry about something like that. But what a tough old guy! I think he fared better than I would have, had I taken those blows. Hope he makes a full recovery.

I hope the pos that beat him gets sent to prison until he's 91. And when he gets out, somebody beats the c**p out of him.

Tuckerdog1

greenflash107
May 14, 2007, 04:23 PM
I am with a lot of the posters here. I could not stand by and watch something like that happen. I would have to get involved, and to hell with possible lawsuits or getting thrown in jail or whatever. God bless the old Gentleman, I hope he's OK.

eric.cartman
May 14, 2007, 04:52 PM
I can assure you, if the thug took 21 punches to the head from ME we would not live to talk about it.

That being said, my grandmother, 80 at the time it happened, had her purse stolen by two thugs: she got hit on the head with a hard object, thrown down the stairs, and kicked several times; 2 ribs broken. I'm not making this up. She never recovered, and eventually passed away from the injuries a year or so later. The hell with the legal consequences. If I ever see a helpless eldery citizen being assaulted like that, I pray I will have to courage to stop it right there and then. And I dare any grand jurry to send me to trial :fire: :fire: :fire:

MrDig
May 14, 2007, 05:24 PM
Can you believe that 5 people stood by and did nothing? In my opinion the Bystanders should be charged as accomplises. Miscreant worthless bottomfeeding j%&*offs!!!!

Kid Prescott
May 14, 2007, 08:10 PM
man, that's not right on so many levels, I would've gladly taken an beating to defend that old man, at least the old man is ok (somewhat), he took those punches suprisingly well, tough ol' guy, criminals like that deserve to have their lives taken away through means of a cell or otherwise...

Geno
May 14, 2007, 08:22 PM
When I post about how many rounds I carry to and from work in Detroit, some people have asked why I pack so heavy. Once again we wtiness the Detroit-mentality...stand by and watch as someone gets their back-side beaten. In Detroit...you're on your own, even in the middle of a crowd...you're alone!

Doc2005

theleveloftime
May 14, 2007, 09:08 PM
I am not good at fighting hand to hand and I have been in a few life and death duke city exchanges. They have never worked out well, you can get damaged real easy and early. If you do you are toast. In all such cases you simply must prevail and if the only effective thing to do is to shoot the perp you shoot him. I'd have told him to stop or I would shoot him, if he didn't stop I would have shot him till he dropped. As for those people milling about, they were obviously lose confederates of his or at least in sympathy, good reason to have elected to use deadly force rather than take a chance at winning the struggle by trying a less effective alternative. Anyone of his blows could have killed that man. I am curious if the people milling about offered first aid?
I was recently injured and had to wear a boot and was in a lot of pain moving around. I would not have had a prayer of running away or fighting off a young fit animal. It was an odd feeling and not one I am used to. Gave me a big glimpse into what it is going to like being a old man and a more obvious target.
One reason I can't understand how older people could possibly support gun control or support the AARP which supports gun control. I hope this was high road enough. I hope the perp gets 20 years for that but I doubt he will spend anytime in jail at all for the assault or stealing the car.

351 WINCHESTER
May 14, 2007, 09:57 PM
In Fl. you have the right to do whatever it takes to stop something like this including deadly force. What if this was your father or grandfather. I'd shoot the sombitch like the mangey dog deserves. I think my bloodpressure just jumped several points. I cannot begin to tell you how angry I am. This makes me sick.

LAK
May 15, 2007, 06:27 AM
Culture problem. Planted, fostered and protected by change agents - people that have been allowed to gain control of the seat of power in this country over about 45 years. They need to be addressed first of all.

A freely armed state would have allowed our senior vet the opportunity to defend himself and his property.

A fitting number of lashes, followed by a fitting number of years at genuine hard labor while residing in something less than a stewarded hotel, would deter some of these thugs. Most of those that survived their acts and got caught would think twice before attempting such a thing again.

If police, judicial and penatential resources were not largely preoccupied with a great number of victimless "crimes", there would be sufficient resources to deal with the perpetrators of actual crimes against actual persons such as this one.

-----------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

hankpac
May 15, 2007, 06:51 AM
That crowd of people looked like they knew the Jacker.
They'll get caught and get away with it.

NCLivingBrit
May 15, 2007, 09:02 AM
My wife (an English teacher here in NC), not normally one to advocate violence of any kind had had the following to say:

"I'd be willing to lose my job (a certainty in a self defence case with her school district) or go to jail to get that <censored> to stop hurting that man."

I love my woman :)

68'chevelle
May 15, 2007, 10:08 AM
how do you delete a post that you don't want?:confused:

68'chevelle
May 15, 2007, 10:09 AM
but there are times when common decency come into play and frankly if I stood by and watched an old man be beaten half to death or a woman rapped I couldn't look at myself in the mirror, but I damn sure could after killing the bastard.
I agree if anybody hurts my family or if I seen somebody being murdered, raped, etc, They wouldn't live to see the next day! That really burns me up :fire: to see someone who has fought for our country get disrespected and beat up like that:banghead: :cuss:

SSN Vet
May 15, 2007, 11:28 AM
I interned for an auto maker years ago in the Detroit area and ventured into the city on several occasions with friends....

based on those limited experiences, this story does not surprise me.

whited
May 15, 2007, 12:50 PM
For everyone who said they would have shot the guy beating the vet, good for you. For the rest who would have not gotten involved for fear of being sued, going to jail, or simply just looking out for Number 1, shame on you. You disgust me.

I totally agree with this sentiment! The law is not to be mistaken for a
sound measuring tool of morality.

High Planes Drifter
May 15, 2007, 01:44 PM
Im betting this guy wont last long in prison once the cat is let out of the bag as to why he's there in the first place.

coylh
May 18, 2007, 06:09 PM
The by-stander effect is apparently cross-cultural.

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/uploads/media_befe4f6d2885529de_1178964044.wmv

starboard
May 19, 2007, 06:38 AM
When it comes to guns being used to stop crime, the annual number estimates are impressive. I only wish a greater percentage of those people would step up and take out the trash.

slewfoot
May 19, 2007, 06:42 AM
You guys can moralize all you want. I would have at least tried to stop the man from being beaten to death.

No self respecting District Attorney, that wants to be re elected, would have brought charges against you with that many witnesses on your behalf.

glocktoberfest
May 19, 2007, 08:38 AM
couple months back , a women was robbed in a local wal mart parking lot , several bystanders , followed / chased the perp into the woods where the perp thought he could escape . Bystanders caught him . When police arrived , perp was transported to hospital . No charges against bystanders , women got her purse back . perp goes to jail . I still smile when I think about it .

Bailey Guns
May 19, 2007, 01:55 PM
To keep this gun related. My question is: due to the mans advanced age and frailty, is using a gun legal to defend the Vet? Although, the man only used his fists, is this a situation warranting the use of a gun?

Colorado law requires a reasonable belief that a lesser degree of force would be inadequate and also requires a reasonable belief that the unlawful use of force will result in death or serious bodily injury prior to using deadly force against an attacker.

I think an argument could easily be made after watching the video that this attack might result in SBI at a minimum based on the severity of the attack and the age of the victim.

Might not be possible to get a clean shot (based on the location between the cars and the proximity of the BG/Victim to each other) but I would've liked a chance anyway.

elrod
May 19, 2007, 03:05 PM
May God bless and heal the old vet. The same God will deal very harshly with this vermin that commited the act! There will be no hung jury on his judgement day. (I only wish that the perp could have been sent to that day at the scene!):fire:

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