Letter exchange with gun-banner


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MicroBalrog
June 20, 2003, 03:12 PM
Here's my letter exchange with a Washington Post Journalist.

Dear Sir!
I have read your article with deep care. Even though I am not Christian myself, I am deeply concerned with your statement:

"And so now, in Hyattsville, because some people cannot get beyond their fascination with guns and some people actually believe the words of their faith's commandments, Sunday is a day for staring across a deep divide."

Please explain where does the Bible (New or Old Testament) say it is wrong to own a weapon? The only relevant part is in the Last Supper, where Christ warns his disciples to buy various life necessities (a sword is one of them). At least wo of the apostles were routinely armed.

Also, the Gabriele Possenti Society disagrees ( http://www.possentisociety.com/ ). They are not some random nutcases, they are endorsed by the Pope. According to the Pope's official statement, self-defense is not only a right, but a duty. So if you're a Catholic, and you're against guns, well, sorry, the Pope does not agree.

An interesting article on the topic: http://www.2ampd.net/Articles/Marshall/god_and_M-60.htm

**** ****
Bat-Yam, Israel
http://www.a-human-right.com/introduction.html

His answer:


Thanks for your note. Thou shalt not kill is pretty clear. Guns exist to
kill. No civilized society except the United States permits private
individuals to own guns outside the purpose of a militia. Thanks for
reading the column.

Best,
Marc Fisher
The Washington Post

And MY answer:



> Thanks for your note. Thou shalt not kill is pretty clear.
Hi!
Actually, that is NOT that clear. The original hebrew text of the Bible
(which I can read, being Israeli, in Hebrew), says "Al Tirz'ah", which is
"Thou shalt not Murder". Murder is then described in the Bible as an
intentional killing of an innocent person.

Most guns exist and were designed for self-defense (except a few "sporting:"
ones). Self-defense is not murder, which is specifically said in the Bible
several times. In fact, one of the most respected rabbis in Israel has ruled
recently, that if you own a gun, it is your Jewish duty (if you are Jewish)
to carry it all the time. He instructed his disciples to be routinely armed
in synagogues.

Self-defense, as I pointed out previously, is also your Christian duty.

What civilized societies do is beside the point, first of all, because
"civilized societies" have so often been wrong, second, because no proof
exist they are right, in fact, in some countries violence rates increased
after introduction of gun control (read Colin Greenwood, a british ex-police
officer working for Cambridge university - British crime rates where rising
after banning guns), and third, because we are not talking about gun
control - we are talking about whether or not it's proper for a religious
man to own a gun.

SY,
*****
Bat-Yam, Israel


He has replied yet. :D

The article discussed can be found here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30170-2003Jun7.html)

If you want to drop him a kind word - fisherm@washpost.com is the ticket

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geekWithA.45
June 20, 2003, 03:16 PM
Booyah!

Antis: Ya shine a light on em, and they either grow, or scuttle for the darkness.

MicroBalrog
June 20, 2003, 03:24 PM
I know for fact he read it - read receipts are cool. I wonder whether he'll write something about it in his paper...
I enjoy doing it to antis...:evil: :rolleyes:

pytron
June 20, 2003, 04:24 PM
Excellent reply to the saying "guns are only meant to kill". I may have to use that one...

-Pytron

Elmer Snerd
June 20, 2003, 04:28 PM
Wasn't "Thou shalt not kill" originally written as "Thou shalt not murder?

Devonai
June 20, 2003, 04:58 PM
Wasn't "Thou shalt not kill" originally written as "Thou shalt not murder?

Actually, that is NOT that clear. The original hebrew text of the Bible (which I can read, being Israeli, in Hebrew), says "Al Tirz'ah", which is
"Thou shalt not Murder". Murder is then described in the Bible as an
intentional killing of an innocent person.

jacketch
June 20, 2003, 05:08 PM
Reason has no place in the mind of an anti.

All decisions concerning firearms are emotion based.

TarpleyG
June 20, 2003, 05:47 PM
No civilized society except the United States permits private individuals to own guns outside the purpose of a militia
This idjit really needs to check his facts. IIRC, Canadians own a crapload of guns (along with many other countries) although they have to register them now. Where did he come up with this?

GT

4v50 Gary
June 20, 2003, 05:52 PM
Good work MicroBalog. You zinged him with the "original" quote and not the King James translation many grew up with.:)

Jacketch - how right you are re: reason in the mind of antis. Kudos.

Meowhead
June 20, 2003, 06:13 PM
Good job! :D

I'm curious whether you'll actually get a second response though.

Archie
June 20, 2003, 06:24 PM
Wasn't "Thou shalt not kill" originally written as "Thou shalt not murder? The word for kill or murder in the Hebrew is
"ratsach {raw-tsakh'};
1) to murder, slay, kill
a) (Qal) to murder, slay
1) premeditated
2) accidental
3) as avenger
4) slayer (intentional) (participle)
b) (Niphal) to be slain
c) (Piel)
1) to murder, assassinate
2) murderer, assassin (participle)(subst)
d) (Pual) to be killed

The meaning has to be taken in context. From the other commandments involving the death penalty, the only reasonable meaning of the commandment in Exodus 20:13 is "You will not commit murder."

The idea this is a blanket injunction against any and all uses of deadly force is a very narrow and naive view. It flies in the face of the death penalty being in force by the same commandments ordering the Ten Commandments.

Archie the Preacher
Pastor, First Southern Baptist Church, Signal Hill, PDSR California. (Right in between Sodom and Gomorrah!)

Mr. James
June 20, 2003, 06:41 PM
MB,

Excellent job. You know more of the Catholic Church's position on self-defense than, sadly, most Catholics.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church also speaks emphatically of the Christian duty to defend one's own life, and the duty to be willing to defend the lives of others, from lawless attack.

For those who didn't click on the link provided by MicroBalrog, the Gabriel Possenti Society is petitioning the Church to have St. Possenti (died 1862, canonized 1920) recognized as the patron saint of handgunners - interesting bio there.

Peace, y'all.

mec
June 20, 2003, 06:45 PM
I suspect your anti-gun newspaper man has done been trumped. he is no doubt unaccustomed to reasoned thought -particularly when it is delivered with such orderly, Rabbinical precision.

{Possenti has at least one miricle toward his apotheosis- hitting that lizard certainly qualifies.}

Don Gwinn
June 21, 2003, 03:16 AM
So, essentially, he ain't going to respond to any silly nonsense about Saint Possenti? Nor will he respond to people who point out that Christ himself supposedly told his followers that they were to get swords since they would need them?

Let's try this:

Dear Sir:
It is with great regret that I find myself behooved to inform you that you are, in fact, a drool-flecked, gibbering idiot. Please ask the nearest adult to remove all pointy, spinny, pokey or slicy objects from your household and lock them away securely. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Ever so sincerely,
Don Gwinn

0007
June 21, 2003, 08:27 AM
washington post journalist - an oxymoron of truely epic proportions.:neener:

Dionysusigma
June 22, 2003, 01:07 AM
http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/stpossen.htm

Not only the patron saint of handgunners, but of marksmen...
At the bottom is a caption that reads: "The obverse [side of the medallion] reads: "For Christian efforts in the preservation of the right of self defense against evil and tyranny. February 27, 2001."

Mikul
June 23, 2003, 12:21 PM
Why do so many christians forget that little part of the Old Testament where God told the Israelites to go into the land of Caanan and pretty much kill anything that moved. In one city, he told them to kill every man, woman, child, and their animals!

God has nothing against killing... nor even being the agressor.

mec
June 23, 2003, 02:03 PM
Mark Twain mentioned that. he had a pre-bolderized version of King James and quoted " Kill all that pisseth against the wall." Figurative, of course. they killed all that pisseth upon the ground also.

Minute_Of_Torso
June 23, 2003, 04:09 PM
For other relevant portions of Scripture (if you're interested) I would recommend Nehemiah - specifically the portions where Nehemiah required armed guards during the reconstruction of the walls of Jerusalem and for everyone who could carry an arm or a shield to be prepared to fight for their families. It was even required that the men be armed when going for water for refreshment.

The command to take Canaan, and the part about killing even the women and children, requires a little bit more theological discernment than merely "God has nothing against killing." It's a rather involved discussion so I'll not begin it unless asked.

ImJustRick
June 23, 2003, 05:07 PM
Awesome thread.

MicroBalrog, could you please let me know who the possek is? My frum parents are antis, and I would be delighted to explain how CCW fits into halacha.

Thanks!

-R

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