Terrorist Academy in upstate NY


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Nomad, 2nd
May 12, 2007, 02:21 PM
Terrorist Academy in upstate NY
Why is this being reported by only the Canadian, and not the US media?
Oh...that's right...it's in NEW YORK.
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Springtime in Islamberg

Radical Muslim paramilitary compound flourishes in upper New York state

By Paul L. Williams Ph.D., (author of THE DAY OF ISLAM)

With the able assistance of Douglas Hagmann, Bill Krayer and Michael Travis

Friday, May 11, 2007

Situated within a dense forest at the foothills of the Catskill Mountains on the outskirts of Hancock, New York, Islamberg is not an ideal place for a summer vacation unless, of course, you are an exponent of the Jihad or a fan of Osama bin Laden.

The 70 acre complex is surrounded with "No trespassing" signs; the rocky terrain is infested with rattlesnakes; and the woods are home to black bears, coyotes, wolves, and a few bobcats.


The entrance to the community is at the bottom of a very steep hill that is difficult to navigate even on a bright sunny day in May. The road, dubbed Muslim Lane, is unpaved and marred by deep crevices that have been created by torrential downpours. On a wintry day, few, save those with all terrain vehicles, could venture forth from the remote encampment.

A sentry post has been established at the base of the hill.

The sentry, at the time of this visit, is an African American dressed in Islamic garb - - a skull cap, a prayer shawl, and a loose fitting shalwat kameez. He instructs us to turn around and leave. "Our community is not open to visitors," he says.

Behind the sentry and across a small stream stand dozens of inhabitants of the compound - - the men wearing skull caps and loose fitting tunics, the women in full burqa. They appear ready to deal with any unauthorized intruders.

The hillside is blighted by rusty trailers that appear to be without power or running water and a number of outhouses. The scent of raw sewage is in the air.

The place is even off limits to the local undertaker who says that he has delivered bodies to the complex but has never been granted entrance. "They come and take the bodies from my hearse. They won't allow me to get past the sentry post. They say that they want to prepare the bodies for burial. But I never get the bodies back. I don't know what's going on there but I don't think it's legal."

On the other side of the hill where few dare to go is a tiny village replete with a make-shift learning center (dubbed the "International Quranic Open University"); a trailer converted into a Laundromat; a small, green community center; a small and rather squalid grocery store; a newly constructed majid; over forty clapboard homes; and scores of additional trailers.

It is home to hundreds - - all in Islamic attire, and all African-Americans. Most drive late model SUVs with license plates from Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, South Carolina, and Tennessee. The locals say that some work as tollbooth operators for the New York State Thruway, while others are employed at a credit card processing center that maintains confidential financial records.

While buzzing with activity during the week, the place becomes a virtual hive on weekends. The guest includes arrivals from the inner cities of New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania and, occasionally, white-robed dignitaries in Ray-Bans from the Middle East.

Venturing into the complex last summer, Douglas Hagmann, an intrepid investigator and director of the Northeast Intelligence Service, came upon a military training area at the eastern perimeter of the property. The area was equipped with ropes hanging from tall trees, wooden fences for scaling, a make-shift obstacle course, and a firing range. Hagmann said that the range appeared to have been in regular use.

Islamberg is not as benign as a Buddhist monastery or a Carmelite convent. Nearly every weekend, neighbors hear sounds of gunfire. Some, including a combat veteran of the Vietnam War, have heard the bang of small explosives. None of the neighbors wished to be identified for fear of "retaliation." "We don't even dare to slow down when we drive by," one resident said. "They own the mountain and they know it and there is nothing we can do about it but move, and we can't even do that. Who wants to buy a property near that?"

The complex serves to scare the bejeesus out of the local residents. "If you go there, you better wear body armor," a customer at the Circle E Diner in Hancock said. "They have armed guards and if they shoot you, nobody will find your body."

At Cousins, a watering hole in nearby Deposit, a barfly, who didn't wish to be identified, said: "The place is dangerous. You can hear gunfire up there. I can't understand why the FBI won't shut it down."

Islamberg is a branch of Muslims of the Americas Inc., a tax-exempt organization formed in 1980 by Pakistani cleric Sheikh Mubarak Ali Gilani, who refers to himself as "the sixth Sultan Ul Faqr," Gilani, has been directly linked by court documents to Jamaat ul-Fuqra or "community of the impoverished," an organization that seeks to "purify" Islam through violence.

Though primarily based in Lahore, Pakistan, Jamaat ul-Fuqra has operational headquarters in New York and openly recruits through various social service organizations in the U.S., including the prison system. Members live in hamaats or compounds, such as Islamberg, where they agree to abide by the laws of Jamaat ul-Fuqra, which are considered to be above local, state and federal authority. Additional hamaats have been established in Hyattsville, Maryland; Red House, Virginia; Falls Church, Virginia; Macon, Georgia; York, South Carolina; Dover, Tennessee; Buena Vista, Colorado; Talihina, Oklahoma; Tulane Country, California; Commerce, California; and Onalaska, Washington. Others are being built, including an expansive facility in Sherman, Pennsylvania.

Before becoming a citizen of Islamberg or any of the other Fuqra compounds, the recruits - - primarily inner city black men who became converts in prison - - are compelled to sign an oath that reads: "I shall always hear and obey, and whenever given the command, I shall readily fight for Allah's sake."

In the past, thousands of members of the U.S. branches of Jamaat ul-Fuqra traveled to Pakistan for paramilitary training, but encampments, such as Islamberg, are now capable of providing book-camp training so raw recruits are no longer required to travel abroad amidst the increased scrutiny of post 9/11.

Over the years, numerous members of Jamaat ul-Fuqra have been convicted in US courts of such crimes as conspiracy to commit murder, firebombing, gun smuggling, and workers' compensation fraud. Others remain leading suspects in criminal cases throughout the country, including ten unsolved assassinations and seventeen fire-bombings between 1979 and 1990.

The criminal charges against the group and the criminal convictions are not things of the past. In 2001, a resident of a California compound was charged with first-degree murder in the shooting of a sheriff's deputy; another was charged with gun-smuggling' and twenty-four members of the Red House community were convicted of firearms violations.

By 2004 federal investigators uncovered evidence that linked both the DC "sniper killer" John Allen Muhammed and "Shoe Bomber" Richard Reid to the group and reports surfaced that Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl was captured and beheaded in the process of attempting to obtain an interview with Sheikh Gilani in Pakistan.

Even though Jamaat ul-Fuqra has been involved in terror attacks and sundry criminal activities, recruited thousands of members from federal and state penal systems, and appears to be operating paramilitary facilities for militant Muslims, it remains to be placed on the official US Terror Watch List. On the contrary, it continues to operate, flourish, and expand as a legitimate nonprofit, tax-deductible charity.

(Paul Williams is the author of THE AL QAEDA CONNECTION and forthcoming
THE DAY OF ISLAM. Lee Boyland is the author of THE RINGS OF ALLAH).

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/...iams051107.htm




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I say we set up Knob CreekII next to them... Felons with guns...

And a pig roast!

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hexidismal
May 12, 2007, 02:27 PM
Link doesn't work
Heres the right link
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/paul-williams051107.htm

That's only about 2 hours west from here or so, if that. And I've never heard of it before. Kinda scary I guess.

Biker
May 12, 2007, 02:30 PM
Well, it *is* a Free Country (used to be, anyway). Whatcha gonna do?

Biker

Pumpkinheaver
May 12, 2007, 02:32 PM
Can you say MOAB?

1 old 0311
May 12, 2007, 02:36 PM
Watch it guys. Those are Hillary's supporters you are talking about.:eek:

Biker
May 12, 2007, 02:42 PM
Me? I find these folks a bit threatening also. Having said that, do we deny folks their rights just because we find them threatening? What next...state militias?
If they want to run around the hills yelling "Allah Akbar" while shooting AKs, ain't none o' my bidness until they bring it into town. Then things get interesting.

Biker

davhina
May 12, 2007, 03:34 PM
Whatcha gonna do?
Call ghostbusters?:neener:
True, what can we do? Are they breaking the law by protecting their property?
From what i have read there is nothing, at this point, that can be done, as there has been no illegal activity.

Phaetos
May 12, 2007, 03:50 PM
Problem is, they won't let anyone in to see what illegal stuff is going on INSIDE the compound. Something has to be going on in there. Sorry, I just don't trust any of them.

Pilgrim
May 12, 2007, 03:54 PM
You can bet your booties that Morris Dees won't try to bankrupt them.

Pilgrim

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 03:55 PM
So how do we feel about white people who have 'compounds' and 'arsenals'?

Biker
May 12, 2007, 03:56 PM
They don't *have* to let anyone inside that compound minus a warrant. If a cop is sure that something is going on inside your house, should he have a right to come in and look just because of a gut feeling?
Besides, I'd be very surprised if the ATF of the Fibbies didn't already have a guy or gal 'in the loop', so to speak.

Biker

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 03:57 PM
You can bet your booties that Morris Dees won't try to bankrupt them.

Yes, when I read - completely unverified - accounts of this sort, my first thought is to whine about a guy who made his name attacking white supremacist groups. How dare he?

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 04:01 PM
Unsurprisingly, a quick search on Islamberg turns up a raft of right-wing/anti-Muslim sites repeating the claims of other right-wing/anti-Muslim sites... but not one independent, verifiable account of wrongdoing.

Given the attitude of our current President and his 'aggressive pursuit' of the 'war on Terror,' one might suspect that all the bleating is simple paranoia.

sm
May 12, 2007, 04:06 PM
Terrorist Academy in upstate NY

Politicians are now being called Terrorist ?

Heck we have known this for a long time now ...;)

hexidismal
May 12, 2007, 04:08 PM
I'm sort of tempted to make a day trip out of this and visit the area, just to see what I can see and hear what I can hear. If for no other reason than to verify the story, at least by accounts of locals.

NickHTK
May 12, 2007, 04:17 PM
Why is this being reported by only the Canadian, and not the US media?[


This is more a a 'fringe' type media. You could take the whole story as a guy trying to hawk his books.

Derek Zeanah
May 12, 2007, 04:17 PM
The description (100% black folks from big cities, Arab-style garb, unfriendly to outsiders, lots of visitors from inner cities on the weekends) makes it sound more like it might be a community devoted to black nationalism -- maybe something in the idea of the Nation of Islam (which is anything but Islam, by the way) with different dress standards and less phobia towards guns?

Just a thought. Most of the "homegrown jihadi" stories involve primarily immigrants; this has little in common other than modes of dress...

ravencon
May 12, 2007, 04:49 PM
I wonder if this is the same facility in the Catskills the Jewish Defense League terrorists used to use. :evil:

Nomad, 2nd
May 12, 2007, 05:09 PM
Before becoming a citizen of Islamberg or any of the other Fuqra compounds, the recruits - - primarily inner city black men who became converts in prison

Felons and guns...
(While I believe they should NOT be denied all their rights after they pay their debt...)

I think they should be allowed to do what they do... but it shouldn't be ignored...

RPCVYemen
May 12, 2007, 05:30 PM
Me? I find these folks a bit threatening also.

Me too.

Look at some of the activities sponsored at another similar village with the same parent organization in South Carolina:


Lovers of Jesus from amongst the Catholic, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, and Baptist denominations, and Muslims, participated in the day of fellowship, titled: “Catholics, Muslims, and Protestants: A Time to Pray and Fellowship Together.”

By the guidance of His Eminence, El-Sheikh Syed Mubarik Ali Shah Gilani, residents of Holy Islamville, SC took heed and answered the call for Muslim-Christian relations, attending and participating in the event.

A wide range of people were present, including clergymen from the Catholic, Presbyterian, and Lutheran churches; prison chaplains and citizens who are genuinely concerned about the state of affairs in America and the improvement of Muslim-Christian relations in America, beginning on a local level.


Here's the reprehensible statement their parent organization made shortly after 9/11:

Added 9/14/01. The Muslims of the Americas, Inc., issued a brief statement expressing condolences to the families of the victims of the "horrific tragedies." It says that the group has sent "over 60 young men" to New York to dispense medical supplies, blankets, and other items to victims, and to assist in recovery efforts. It states that "each and every member of our organization abhors and condemns these acts of terrorism perpetrated upon our great country," and says that "as Americans, we are ready to assist in whatever way we can to begin the recovery and healing from these tragedies. It also urges "all our countrymen" not to jump to unfounded conclusions and not to allow hatred and prejudice to overpower reason.

We had better send in the troops today - who knows what comes next? A buddy told me that radical Quakers want to found a city west of New York! Worse yet, I've heard of an extreme religious group that wants to start a around some big salty lake somewhere in Utah? What's America coming too?

Though a special ultra-super triple black deep cover operation, I found the websites for these danged terrorists. After you read these URLs, please destroy the computers you are using:

http://www.islamberg.org/

http://www.holyislamvillesc.org/

By golly, just for THR, I used my nuclear powered Seal X-Ray cell phone, deep cover White House contacts, and my Ollie North decoder ring, and got the real estate records on them unholy scourges (note this is triple quadruple fantabulous top secret - don't tell nobody):

http://www.uspdr.com/Consumer/generaldisplay.asp?unikey=1254003690000000100330000001&class=620&swis=125400

To heck with the evidence, let's just nuke 'em.


Mike

obxned
May 12, 2007, 05:39 PM
Branch Davidians and other groups have been raided for much less. Where is AFT if there are explosions heard up there? They are a sect with automatic weapons, so bring on the tanks and the press and the 'non-incendiary devices'. Oh, I forgot, they are a group that merits special treatment, so we just let them do whatever.

The only homeland security that exists is that which you own. Rather than report the news, the press ignores it because it would make it harded to sell their anti-gun agenda if people knew how close to home the danger lies.

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 05:49 PM
Branch Davidians and other groups have been raided for much less.
Now, take that to the logical conclusion: if groups have been raided and prosecuted for less than what is claimed in the article, then why hasn't the ATF or another federal agency been involved?

Two possible answers:

First, there have been no legitimate reports of the claimed activities with evidence enough to warrant intervention. The claims in the article are at best paranoia and at worst complete and utter fiction.

Second, the Bush Justice and Treasury Departments are looking the other way at Islamic (potential) terrorists operating inside the United States in plain view.

Now, which is the more likely answer?

(Hint: Occam's Razor)

CrawdaddyJim
May 12, 2007, 06:07 PM
Some of you guys need to go back and reread the constitution. Has any illegal activity been observed? Maybe, due to the bodies not being buried according to NY state health code. But wanting to be left alone and doing what you want on your property is not a crime unless someone else's rights are being violated. I say leave them alone. Unless they show themselves to be bloodthirsty zombie's then it is ON! :uhoh:

Hogfan1911
May 12, 2007, 06:20 PM
Personally, I'm just gonna wait for some enterprising media type to bring this up to Rudy or Hillary at their next debate & see the response.
And yes, I'm sure the gub'mint already knows about them.
And were this the mid '90s and it was a bunch of armed white people espousing some form of Christianity, the raid would've already occurred.

SpeedAKL
May 12, 2007, 06:25 PM
If locals have been complaining of explosions and gunfire I'm sure the Feds have gotten wind of it as well....or at least I hope....

foob
May 12, 2007, 06:28 PM
Wow the assumptions people make from one rabid unsubstantiated article. And the absurd demands for security over civil liberties. Not surprising the government has been able to chip away all our rights.

Just THINK, some people shouted "God is Great" in arabic and fired some guns (all legal activity), a video store clerk notices this on video and notifies the FBI. FBI investigates this small tip vigorously and catch some terrorists.

You THINK, with the amount of activity the article mentions, the FBI would have done some snooping? You think homeland security just sits on their butts and twiddle their thumbs? Just mentioning you want to kill the president may get the SS knocking on your door.

Maybe, just maybe, no mainstream media outlet (Fox news included) reports it is because it isn't true? No it must be the evil mass media hiding the truth from us peons. A terrorist academy, what could be the biggest scoop of the year, but everybody doesn't want to touch it because they are blacks and muslims. Right......

And were this the mid '90s and it was a bunch of armed white people espousing some form of Christianity, the raid would've already occurred.

Oh the humanity. The majority being persecuted and oppressed. I blame the blacks actually. Their Jesse 'play the race card all the time' Jackson mentality has resulted in the white "we aren't free to practice Christianity" Christian persecution complex.

------

A sentry post has been established at the base of the hill.

Sentry post? In front of a gated community in Beverly Hills it's a security guard post. In front of a muslim community it's a sentry post?

Next time one of you shoots in your backyard, I hope nobody calls it a 'paramilitary compound' or a 'terrorist academy'. My outdoor range could be referred as that. Also any boy scout camps that have obstacle courses and firearms ranges are screwed.

Behind the sentry and across a small stream stand dozens of inhabitants of the compound - - the men wearing skull caps and loose fitting tunics, the women in full burqa. They appear ready to deal with any unauthorized intruders.

Yes because being dressed in islamic attire means one appears ready to deal with intruders. Forget a bulletproof vest, I'm going to get myself a skull cap and a loose fitting tunic.

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 06:59 PM
And were this the mid '90s and it was a bunch of armed white people espousing some form of Christianity, the raid would've already occurred.

Is it George Bush's fault? Is he encouraging Islamic fundamentalism and potential terrorism within our borders?

Why hasn't he taken action?

Nomad, 2nd
May 12, 2007, 07:12 PM
Havn't read all this, but here:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2005/10/jamaat-ul-fuqra-in-virginia-part-1.html

It's not an issue about 'THE ATF SHOULD WHIPE THEM OUT.'

It's that these people declared holy WAR on us and ATTACKED and killed more than the Japs did during Pearl Harbor... and Joe Sixpack hasn't heard a WORD about this stuff...

WHY?

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 07:15 PM
"Gates of Vienna" - now that's an unbiased source!

Car Knocker
May 12, 2007, 07:18 PM
these people declared holy WAR on us and ATTACKED and killed more than the Japs did during Pearl Harbor
I thought those people perished in the attack?

foob
May 12, 2007, 07:19 PM
From the Gates of Vienna link:

"When we executed our search warrants," he said, "we found a cave with 30 firearms in it. Most of those firearms were military knockoffs, like AK-47s. We also found ammunition—6000 rounds."

Who doesn't have 6000 rounds, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Read the article in Gates of Vienna link. He has one named source, Shirley, who speculates a shiatload. And his own investigation leads to absolutely nothing, except a picture of a shack. Brilliant.

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 07:20 PM
It's that these people declared holy WAR on us and ATTACKED and killed more than the Japs did during Pearl Harbor... and Joe Sixpack hasn't heard a WORD about this stuff...

These people? You have definitive evidence that the people of Islamberg assisted in the planning of 9/11? That they have a direct connection al-Qaeda?

Why haven't you come forward with it? Have you? Is George Bush hiding the truth? Why?

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 07:23 PM
Surveillance reports of the compounds note that the residents remain in a fluid state and are continuously on the move.
Translation: Billy Bob and Johnny took the F-150 and parked on Main Street in the afternoon.

It's interesting that the long string of misdeeds attributed to the group is actually one convinction and a whole lot of "allegedly" clauses.

Ok, less 'interesting' than 'telling.'

Car Knocker
May 12, 2007, 07:29 PM
With the proper journalistic license, Front Sight and its inhabitants/personnel could be described in much the same terms. :scrutiny:

pharmer
May 12, 2007, 07:47 PM
It's a good thing they are all grouped together. When the time comes they can be exterminated most efficiently. Joe

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 07:50 PM
Now that's some high roadin' right there.

Nomad, 2nd
May 12, 2007, 08:01 PM
wooderson, Car Knocker, and everyone else:

Before I was Deployed, and when I was in Iraq (On my down time) I read quite a bit about the Islamic culture.
I have also witnessed it first hand.

I susgest everyone do some reading on the subject.

Since my return, when the subject of the war comes up I say "I don't know if we should of gone, that's unimportant now anyway. I DO know that right now they are coming from all over the world to fight us there, and they have declared a Jihad, if we leave they will come here and attack us."

Please read up on Jihad... there are 2 types, look into them both. You will be enlightened.

-I must say, that not all Muslims have these viewpoints, but I liken them to lapsed Cathlics... (I have a couple as friends)


But, remember I said it: One day, NO MATTER WHAT WE DO, they WILL bring the war to us.

Unfortunately, I think the Government will use that to increase the opression, as is true of any government in the same situation throught the ages.

Don't take my word for it, but please... find out for yourself.

foob
May 12, 2007, 08:10 PM
Nomad, what do you really mean by "bring the war to us"? Will thousands or hundreds of thousands of troops be landing on US soil?

Or is it more realistically, small cells of terrorists? We already have a buttload of tools to deal with them. Just recently the FBI arrested a bunch of them (Fort Dix terror plot).

Are you suggesting that we spend billions of dollars fighting in Iraq, losing more than one US soldier on average per day, just so small terror cells don't infiltrate the US? I'm not sure I see the benefit versus tradeoff here.

Did the Iraq war prevent the Fort Dix terror plot? The administration has said they have prevented numerous terror plots since the iraq war has started. But I thought the terrorists are all fighting in Iraq?

I'm sorry but your justification for the Iraqi war doesn't make sense. Terrorists are here apparently, and they are supposedly training in upstate NY too.

Maybe the iraq war has angered fringe muslims in the states, and instead of reducing terrorism, it has increased the likelihood on US soil.

But, remember I said it: One day, NO MATTER WHAT WE DO, they WILL bring the war to us.

Unfortunately, I think the Government will use that to increase the opression, as is true of any government in the same situation throught the ages.

So no matter what is done in Iraq, Jihad will come to the US. So how do you use that to justify the war?

If you understand the government is using the fear of terrorists to increase oppression, why can't you understand the government is using the iraq war to increase oppression and corruption.

gezzer
May 12, 2007, 08:12 PM
Mucho Loose'o tinfoil on this one. Remeber shiny side out, or is it in?????:what: :D

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 08:21 PM
Before I was Deployed, and when I was in Iraq (On my down time) I read quite a bit about the Islamic culture.
I have also witnessed it first hand.
You witnessed the events of a war zone as an enemy combatant. Do you think that the experiences of an American in Vietnam in 1967 would be identical to those of an American in 2007?

Since my return, when the subject of the war comes up I say "I don't know if we should of gone, that's unimportant now anyway. I DO know that right now they are coming from all over the world to fight us there, and they have declared a Jihad, if we leave they will come here and attack us."
How do you know this?

Is there a single indication that Iraq is 'keeping them tied up' compared to 2003 (no homeland attacks that I recall) or 2001 (hmm, seem to recall a big one) or 1999 (no again)?

No, there's an assumption without evidence or logic. But with a healthy dose of anti-Islamic paranoia.

There are more than a billion Muslims in the world. What percentage are part of these fundamentalist groups that have declared war on America and pledged to invade/destroy/etc.? Can you back that number up? Now what percentage of that percentage are currently inside Iraq? What keeps the remaining number from going ahead and attacking us?

-I must say, that not all Muslims have these viewpoints, but I liken them to lapsed Cathlics... (I have a couple as friends)
Given your reaction to a couple of undocumented stories, I would seriously question whether or not you feel that "not all Muslims" are your enemy.

Nomad, 2nd
May 12, 2007, 08:23 PM
I don't know what 'they' will do, I'm just a lowly enlisted man, and if I had that kind of intel on the enemy I wouldn't be posting here!

What I DO know, is that the 'Holy War' will continue untill we are all
-Dead
-Converted to Islam
-Slaves
This is what I said you should go and read for yourself...

I believe it is better for me to fight them there, with weapons, bodyarmor, and air support, than to have to try to stop a suicide bomber in Wallmart with just my 1911.
Or worry about my Mother/sisters when they go shopping.

Look at how Isreal lives... or heck, the things that are happening in Australia, and Europe... with women being raped cause they did not 'cover' themselves... it's our future unless we do something... I don't know what.

The more we kill there, the less get here.

I will NOT get into a 'War debate'
It isn't up to me, I can see nothing constructive coming from it.

Catsailor
May 12, 2007, 08:31 PM
Wow! I thought I had a level head but after reading this thread and applying the thought process of some I realized that since I have a German name = I MUST be a Natzi:evil: , no other resonable explanation. A private estate owned by people of dark skin and Islam faith = gotta be a terristorist training camp:fire: , no other explanation possible. :banghead: :cuss: :banghead: :neener: :eek: :banghead:
Come on, we that support the 2nd ammendment should know by now that the power of negative press can condem a person or group without a single verifible fact being released. Why would this story be treated any different?
I am pleased to see that many still believe in personal freedom, due process, ect. Sorry to rant but I am always amazed at how fast some are willing to sacrifice the liberty of others.:eek: :banghead:

shootinstudent
May 12, 2007, 08:34 PM
Nomad,

What do you recommend that we read? Specifically, where in the literature will I find support for this:

What I DO know, is that the 'Holy War' will continue untill we are all
-Dead
-Converted to Islam
-Slaves
This is what I said you should go and read for yourself...

?

Nomad, 2nd
May 12, 2007, 08:39 PM
wooderson Said:


Is there a single indication that Iraq is 'keeping them tied up' compared to 2003 (no homeland attacks that I recall) or 2001 (hmm, seem to recall a big one) or 1999 (no again)?

No, there's an assumption without evidence or logic. But with a healthy dose of anti-Islamic paranoia.
The evidence is the enemy combatants the coilition forces face, Europe, the Philopeans (Not many of these) other Middle eastern countries, I SAID go and research for yourself... you will find this to be true.


There are more than a billion Muslims in the world. What percentage are part of these fundamentalist groups that have declared war on America and pledged to invade/destroy/etc.? Can you back that number up? Now what percentage of that percentage are currently inside Iraq? What keeps the remaining number from going ahead and attacking us?

Read the Koran... all fateful followers of Islam... the only thing they hate more than us is a 'backslidden' muslem... they are instructed in the Koran to kill them also.
-I looked up the passages... go read it for yourself and see.


Quote:-I must say, that not all Muslims have these viewpoints, but I liken them to lapsed Cathlics... (I have a couple as friends)

Given your reaction to a couple of undocumented stories, I would seriously question whether or not you feel that "not all Muslims" are your enemy.

Thank you, Now why didn't you put it in plainer language and call me a FUC%!N liar straight out. It's the internet, you are free to do so without fear of reprisals.
Please find someone from War Rifles, Frugals, or the Minion and 'check out' my story of about a year ago when I helped out several Muslem women who were having some problems.
Also ask those who know me (Many personally) wether what I say is the truth (To the best of my knowledge/prespective) ALWAYS.

Now, since I have been very polite, despite your rudeness, and personal insults: I will refer you to my earlier post where I asked you to go out and READ AND LEARN on your own.

Please do so, I believe we as Americans should understand what we face.

foob
May 12, 2007, 08:40 PM
What I DO know, is that the 'Holy War' will continue untill we are all
-Dead
-Converted to Islam
-Slaves

Just because a bunch of muslims want it to continue doesn't mean it will succeed. They can keep trying and keep failing or have minimal success.

And it's really not a 'holy war', it's more like 'unholy really really small insignificant fight'.

I'll take a 9/11 every 100 years than a 100 years of living in fear.

------

Everybody calm down. It's just a discussion (yes there is sarcasm, exaggerations, and snide remarks, I am guilty of all). No need to make it personal though. Anyway we are seriously off-topic.

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 08:40 PM
Look at how Isreal lives...
Israel, which just happens to exist smack-dab in the middle of what was Islamic territory for 1000 years?

Yeah, that's totally analgous to a larger, religiously and ethnically diverse secular state separated by half a globe.

or heck, the things that are happening in Australia, and Europe... with women being raped cause they did not 'cover' themselves... it's our future unless we do something... I don't know what.
A questionable assertion in the first place, but I fail to see how this is akin to an invasion and conflict on American soil.

The more we kill there, the less get here.
The more we kill there, the more of 'them' there are. You might have noticed that 'on the ground.'

I will NOT get into a 'War debate'
That's pretty weird, because you're the one who brought it up.

Nomad, 2nd
May 12, 2007, 08:42 PM
Nomad,

What do you recommend that we read? Specifically, where in the literature will I find support for this:

It's been a while since I read them (We passed them around the Plt)
But start with the Koran... I've got a few of the passages I printed off where they talk about how to treat the infadels... that I printed off about a year ago when this came up I think on War rifles.

And I'll try to find what the books were, and look for the print out...

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 08:45 PM
The evidence is the enemy combatants the coilition forces face, Europe, the Philopeans (Not many of these) other Middle eastern countries, I SAID go and research for yourself... you will find this to be true
Yes, there are 'enemy combatants' in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Phillipines (where insurrection is something of a time-honored tradition). Stating that they exist in no way proves your case that they would otherwise have massed, wholesale on American soil.

Read the Koran... all fateful followers of Islam... the only thing they hate more than us is a 'backslidden' muslem... they are instructed in the Koran to kill them also.
-I looked up the passages... go read it for yourself and see.
So contrary to your other words, all Muslims are out to kill us (specifically me, given that I'm not even a 'person of the book')? All one billion?

Are they all concentrated in Iraq right now? No? So roughly 970 million of them are not in Iraq at this moment?

So how is Iraq keeping them from invading us, again?

Thank you, Now why didn't you put it in plainer language and call me a FUC%!N liar straight out.
I didn't say you didn't have Muslim friends. I don't particularly give a good god-damn if you do or don't.

What I questioned was your simultaneous assertions that not all Muslims are jihadists, but by definition their religion requires them to be such.

jpk1md
May 12, 2007, 08:46 PM
Folks, wake up!

If the Fed wants to know whats going on all they need to do is sick a satellite on it or do a little high altitude recon with camera's....done deal

Can you say Predator? Smile for the Camera OSAMA!

shootinstudent
May 12, 2007, 08:49 PM
Nomad,

As far as I'm aware (at least from my reading), the word infidel isn't used in the Qu'ran. As in, not even once.

I think you might be substituting "gates of vienna" for actual reading of what Muslims have to say.

Nomad, 2nd
May 12, 2007, 08:51 PM
What Thomas Jefferson learned
from the Muslim book of jihad


By Ted Sampley
U.S. Veteran Dispatch
January 2007
Democrat Keith Ellison is now officially the first Muslim United States congressman. True to his pledge, he placed his hand on the Quran, the Muslim book of jihad and pledged his allegiance to the United States during his ceremonial swearing-in.

Capitol Hill staff said Ellison's swearing-in photo opportunity drew more media than they had ever seen in the history of the U.S. House. Ellison represents the 5th Congressional District of Minnesota.

The Quran Ellison used was no ordinary book. It once belonged to Thomas Jefferson, third president of the United States and one of America's founding fathers. Ellison borrowed it from the Rare Book Section of the Library of Congress. It was one of the 6,500 Jefferson books archived in the library.

Ellison, who was born in Detroit and converted to Islam while in college, said he chose to use Jefferson's Quran because it showed that "a visionary like Jefferson" believed that wisdom could be gleaned from many sources.

There is no doubt Ellison was right about Jefferson believing wisdom could be "gleaned" from the Muslim Quran. At the time Jefferson owned the book, he needed to know everything possible about Muslims because he was about to advocate war against the Islamic "Barbary" states of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli.

Ellison's use of Jefferson's Quran as a prop illuminates a subject once well-known in the history of the United States, but, which today, is mostly forgotten - the Muslim pirate slavers who over many centuries enslaved millions of Africans and tens of thousands of Christian Europeans and Americans in the Islamic "Barbary" states.

Over the course of 10 centuries, Muslim pirates cruised the African and Mediterranean coastline, pillaging villages and seizing slaves.

The taking of slaves in pre-dawn raids on unsuspecting coastal villages had a high casualty rate. It was typical of Muslim raiders to kill off as many of the "non-Muslim" older men and women as possible so the preferred "booty" of only young women and children could be collected.

Young non-Muslim women were targeted because of their value as concubines in Islamic markets. Islamic law provides for the sexual interests of Muslim men by allowing them to take as many as four wives at one time and to have as many concubines as their fortunes allow.

Boys, as young as 9 or 10 years old, were often mutilated to create eunuchs who would bring higher prices in the slave markets of the Middle East. Muslim slave traders created "eunuch stations" along major African slave routes so the necessary surgery could be performed. It was estimated that only a small number of the boys subjected to the mutilation survived after the surgery.

When American colonists rebelled against British rule in 1776, American merchant ships lost Royal Navy protection. With no American Navy for protection, American ships were attacked and their Christian crews enslaved by Muslim pirates operating under the control of the "Dey of Algiers"--an Islamist warlord ruling Algeria.

Because American commerce in the Mediterranean was being destroyed by the pirates, the Continental Congress agreed in 1784 to negotiate treaties with the four Barbary States. Congress appointed a special commission consisting of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin, to oversee the negotiations.

Lacking the ability to protect its merchant ships in the Mediterranean, the new America government tried to appease the Muslim slavers by agreeing to pay tribute and ransoms in order to retrieve seized American ships and buy the freedom of enslaved sailors.

Adams argued in favor of paying tribute as the cheapest way to get American commerce in the Mediterranean moving again. Jefferson was opposed. He believed there would be no end to the demands for tribute and wanted matters settled "through the medium of war." He proposed a league of trading nations to force an end to Muslim piracy.

In 1786, Jefferson, then the American ambassador to France, and Adams, then the American ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the "Dey of Algiers" ambassador to Britain.

The Americans wanted to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress' vote to appease.
--------------------------------------------------------------
During the meeting Jefferson and Adams asked the Dey's ambassador why Muslims held so much hostility towards America, a nation with which they had no previous contacts.

In a later meeting with the American Congress, the two future presidents reported that Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja had answered that Islam "was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Quran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise."
------------------------------------------------------------------
For the following 15 years, the American government paid the Muslims millions of dollars for the safe passage of American ships or the return of American hostages. The payments in ransom and tribute amounted to 20 percent of United States government annual revenues in 1800.

Not long after Jefferson's inauguration as president in 1801, he dispatched a group of frigates to defend American interests in the Mediterranean, and informed Congress.

Declaring that America was going to spend "millions for defense but not one cent for tribute," Jefferson pressed the issue by deploying American Marines and many of America's best warships to the Muslim Barbary Coast.

The USS Constitution, USS Constellation, USS Philadelphia, USS Chesapeake, USS Argus, USS Syren and USS Intrepid all saw action.

In 1805, American Marines marched across the desert from Egypt into Tripolitania, forcing the surrender of Tripoli and the freeing of all American slaves.

During the Jefferson administration, the Muslim Barbary States, crumbling as a result of intense American naval bombardment and on shore raids by Marines, finally officially agreed to abandon slavery and piracy.

Jefferson's victory over the Muslims lives on today in the Marine Hymn, with the line, "From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli, We fight our country's battles in the air, on land and sea."

It wasn't until 1815 that the problem was fully settled by the total defeat of all the Muslim slave trading pirates.

Jefferson had been right. The "medium of war" was the only way to put and end to the Muslim problem. Mr. Ellison was right about Jefferson. He was a "visionary" wise enough to read and learn about the enemy from their own Muslim book of jihad.

http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan07/jeff_quran.htm

Kentucky
May 12, 2007, 08:53 PM
NEW YORK - When he began testifying at his own trial this week, a Florida doctor accused of pledging to support al-Qaida hoped to convince a jury that the FBI had it all wrong: He was a man of peace.

If that was the plan, then Rafiq Abdus Sabir had a disastrous day on the witness stand Friday.

Under cross examination, the Columbia University-trained physician was forced to acknowledge a history of family violence, a fascination with weapons and a belief that good Muslims should engage in armed jihad, or holy war.

U.S. Attorney Victor Hou asked Sabir about an audio tape, found at his house, in which a religious lecturer said God would “destroy the disbelievers.”

“That’s God’s word. I have to believe in it,” Sabir said.

They also discussed passages from religious books. One said Jews should be expelled from the Arabian peninsula. Another said Muslims are obligated to obey an imam who declares war against nonbelievers. Hou asked Sabir whether he agreed with both passages, and he said yes — but added that Muslims are only required to follow such instructions from a legitimate religious authority.

Hou pressed him further: “You believe that you must participate in armed jihad, if you get a chance to?”

“Yes,” Sabir answered

shootinstudent
May 12, 2007, 08:59 PM
Nomad,

That's interesting. If the "medium of war" is the only way Muslims could be dealt with, why did our founding fathers sign a treaty with Muslim states emphasizing that the US isn't a Christian nation? There's a whole list of these.

It seems the author of "what jefferson learned" didn't check into what Jefferson and his compatriots were doing:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/barmenu.htm

Here's a quote from the November 1797 treaty of tripoli:

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

wooderson
May 12, 2007, 09:01 PM
Democrat Keith Ellison is now officially the first Muslim United States congressman. True to his pledge, he placed his hand on the Quran, the Muslim book of jihad and pledged his allegiance to the United States during his ceremonial swearing-in.
Good to know you're relying on sources that don't have any kind bone to pick at all, Nomad.

foob
May 12, 2007, 09:10 PM
True to his pledge, he placed his hand on the Quran, the Muslim book of jihad

Man you don't see articles saying "he placed his hand on the Bible, the Christian book of violence" do you?

Sunray
May 12, 2007, 09:26 PM
"...reported by only the Canadian..." Don't believe what you see in our newspapers. They make stuff up and don't have a clue what they're talking about. A guy with two firearms has an 'arsenal' as far as our media is concerned.
"...the woods are home to black bears, coyotes, wolves, and a few bobcats..." Imagine upper NYS having them. Don't think there are any wolves though. Lots of big dogs living in NYS though.
"...infested with rattlesnakes..." Um, not likely. Timber rattlers are endangered in NYS and are protected. And they're only found in southern NYS.

Nomad, 2nd
May 12, 2007, 09:32 PM
I'm not gonna argue points, (I say that knowing I will):rolleyes:

READ for yourself:

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

Some more...
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/74536

geekWithA.45
May 12, 2007, 09:47 PM
Good, grief, how'd this thread get this far without adult supervision?

No thread shall be allowed to degenerate into "My god is better than your god."

Frankly, the relationship of Islamism to the threats facing us is a serious topic that deserves sober and reflective analysis and discussion.

It is a shame that any such attempt to do so on the Internet innevitably degenerates into a kindergarten food fight.


Lights out.

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