N.H Officer Killed, attacker killed by passer-by


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TheFederalistWeasel
May 12, 2007, 10:17 PM
N.H Officer Killed, attacker killed by passer-by
Miller cousin shot dead, officer killed in N.H.


Saturday, 12 May 2007

FRANCONIA, New Hampshire — A cousin of ski racing star Bode Miller fatally shot and ran over a police officer, then was killed by a passer-by who grabbed the officer's gun, authorities said Saturday.

Liko Kenney shot Cpl. Bruce McKay four times and ran over him after a traffic stop Friday evening, state Attorney General Kelly Ayotte said. Gregory Floyd, who was driving by with his son, grabbed McKay's gun and shot Kenney when he refused to put his gun down, Ayotte said.

The 24-year-old Kenney was convicted of assaulting McKay and resisting arrest in 2003. Ayotte had no other details of that previous incident between the men, and rejected suggestions the officer should have let someone else handle the traffic stop given his history with the driver.

Officials said McKay pulled Kenney over for speeding on Route 116. Kenney took off, and McKay pursued him for about 1 1/2 miles before pulling in front of Kenney's car and pushing it off the road.

The officer used pepper spray on Kenney and his passenger and then turned around and was shot, Ayotte said Saturday at a news conference in Concord. Soon after, Floyd arrived and confronted Kenney while his son called for help using the officer's radio. Authorities said Floyd was justified in shooting Kenney.

The 48-year-old McKay was a 12-year veteran of the Franconia Police Department.

"It really tears at the fabric of the community and the fabric of the state," said Gov. John Lynch, who visited the town of about 900 residents Saturday as people paid their respects and brought flowers to a police station.

Liko Kenney’s father is the brother of Jo Miller, Bode’s Miller mother. Bode Miller's father, Woody Miller, said there was a history of animosity between the officer and his nephew.

"They had a long relationship," said Woody Miller, who operates an international tennis camp in nearby Easton. "There's been physical altercations between them before in the course of being arrested."

Miller said Kenney, who lived next door to him, didn't have a steady job, but often took work cutting firewood and picking fiddlehead ferns, a wild green that grows in the region and is considered a delicacy.

Bode Miller, who once bailed his cousin out of jail, was on his way home to Franconia, his father said. Miller was in Park City, Utah, this week, meeting with officials of the U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association. At that meeting, the former Olympic medalist told officials he was cutting his ties with the U.S. team.

The shooting happened near this town in the White Mountain National Forest, popular with skiers and tourists who visited the Old Man of the Mountain, a rock formation and the state's symbol that crumbled into pieces four years ago.

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nwilliams
May 12, 2007, 11:07 PM
WOW!

Authorities said Floyd was justified in shooting Kenney.
Yeah I'd say he was! Give that man a medal, he did the right thing! Its just a shame about the officer, sounds like a horrible turn of events, just glad that the killer didn't get away with it.

Autolycus
May 12, 2007, 11:12 PM
Well thats a shame that the officer died but at least it illustrates one of the benefits of CCW.

mlandman
May 12, 2007, 11:50 PM
The officer used pepper spray on Kenney and his passenger and then turned around and was shot
...and turned around?

Saddly, that answers the question of the efficacy of pepper spray.

Lashlarue
May 12, 2007, 11:51 PM
The passerby used the dead officers gun to kill the bad guy...

Warren
May 12, 2007, 11:59 PM
In NYC or England they would probably be prosecuting the passerby.

Good on him.

qlajlu
May 13, 2007, 12:50 AM
The passerby used the dead officers gun to kill the bad guy...
And that is the best reason to oppose "smart-gun" legislation.
Even if it were an officer's partner, a smart-gun would not work!

Yes, this is a true tragedy, but it is also a lesson...if they will only listen. :banghead:

[It would be nice if a link to the story was also posted.]

DevLcL
May 13, 2007, 03:16 AM
I heard this story on the news tonight and I didn't catch the full stpry so naturally I had to come on here to find out more. A terrible shame that the officer was killed but GOSH DARN! The good guy just up and shot the bad guy.... And no carged filed! This is a semi-good story for gun lovers. Of course the anti's will you the old "if guns didn't exist in the first place". Like qlajlu stated "If they will only listen".

the pistolero
May 13, 2007, 05:09 AM
Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-officershot&prov=ap&type=lgns)

And that is the best reason to oppose "smart-gun" legislation.
I am not so sure about that. I don't know about New York, but I think at least in New Jersey, it's only civilians who will be burdened with the "smart gun" technology; the police will be exempt.

cheygriz
May 13, 2007, 11:47 AM
Saddly, that answers the question of the efficacy of pepper spray.

No, it doesn't! And I speak from considerable experience, because I have USED pepper spray on several dozens of occassions.

And it has NEVER failed me.

But pepper spray is just like any other weapon. It has specific purposes and specific limitations. Pepper spray is a very short term weapon, useful for stopping a fight, gaining control of a suspect, and handcuffing him. It was never designed for, and should never be used as, a substitute for proper control techniques and handcuffs.

Batons, tasers, pepper spray, kubotans, etc all have a specific purpose, and ALL are effective when properly employed!

VARifleman
May 13, 2007, 12:10 PM
cheygriz...there is a correctional officer on this forum that has described the efficiency of pepperspray. Bascially, it is good as a blinding agent, but the pain can cause a surge of adrenline enraging the subject.

pax
May 13, 2007, 12:21 PM
cheygriz ~

Even when properly employed, there are a (small) number of people who are immune to the effects of pepper spray.

Just as there are a (small) number of people who do not react to any given pain-compliance technique. Just as there are a (small) number of folks who are capable of doing the drop-n-roll fast enough to avoid getting frozen by the taser. Just as there are a (small) number of folks who are able to fight past gunshot wounds, until they are shut down by blood loss five to ten minutes later.

No such thing as a weapon that is effective 100% of the time in 100% of the cases, even when employed properly.

That's no smear on the effectiveness of any given weapon in the vast majority of cases. It is simply a realistic assessment -- the kind of "this is what life is like" knowledge that you need to take into account whenever you deploy any weapon or any control technique.

Horrible story. My sympathy goes out to the officer's family and friends. Kudos to the good citizen who got involved, instead of walking by on the other side!

pax

AR-15 Rep
May 13, 2007, 01:23 PM
Glad to hear the BG was taken care of. This guy obviously has had dealings with the law before and was a bad situation waiting to happen. This guy had no respect for other peoples lives and needed to go away. I hate to hear an officer trying to do his job gets killed over a traffic stop gone bad.
Clearly there was a need for a better next action on the officers part. If you have to spray you should prepare for the next sequence of events. I think the passenger should be charged with something as well. The passenger probabley did some action that caused the officer to focus his attention away from what was happening. I can only guess that the passenger tried getting out of the vehicle to avoid the spray, the officer turned to go around the vehicle, or get a better view of what the passenger was doing, and that was just enough time for the BG to shoot the officer. On the same token the passenger shouldn't be responsible for what the other person is doing unless they have knowledge something was going to happen.
Overall I think anyone who is willing to take a life over a traffic stop, and a little pepper spray got what he deserved.
I think Floyd did the right thing by trying to disarm the guy and at last resort shoot him before he took another life.
I give out a thanks to Mr. Floyd for helping out the community, and hope other officers look at this tragedy and learn from it.

lgsracer
May 13, 2007, 01:34 PM
My prayers for the officer and his family. BZ to the passerby.

Killer slain with officer's gun

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Killer+slain+with+officer%27s+gun&articleId=e52b5e2f-c04f-4b97-b188-299d170dd507

By PAT GROSSMITH
New Hampshire Union Leader Staff
11 hours, 47 minutes ago


The cousin of famed skier Bode Miller who shot and killed a Franconia police officer was then shot and killed by a witness who used the slain officer's .45 caliber gun to do it.

Liko Kenney, 24, of Franconia, convicted in 2003 of assaulting Franconia Police Cpl. Bruce McKay, shot him dead Friday night and then ran over him with his Toyota, authorities said yesterday at a Concord press conference.

Passer-by Gregory W. Floyd, 49, a former Marine, witnessed the shooting and came to the officer's aid.

Floyd positioned his pickup truck to shield the fallen officer, grabbed McKay's .45 caliber gun and shot Kenney, who was in his car, holding his Colt .45 caliber handgun.

McKay's cruiser videotaped the incident. The tape shows McKay, who had not drawn his gun, being shot by Kenney, according to Attorney General Kelly Ayotte. McKay, a 12-year veteran of the Franconia Police Department, was not wearing a bullet-resistant vest.

"This is a terrible loss to our state," Ayotte said. "It once again reminds us of the difficult and dangerous work that is done every day by law enforcement of the state to protect each of us. The police officers of the state, including Cpl. McKay, are nothing short of heroes."

Gov. John Lynch directed all American and state flags be flown at half staff until further notice. Yesterday, he met with members of the Franconia community to extend his condolences and offer assistance.

"This terrible tragedy has impacted families, the Franconia area and the entire state of New Hampshire," Lynch said in a prepared statement. "My thoughts and prayers, and those of my wife, Susan, are with the family of Cpl. McKay, whose courage, service and commitment to protecting others is an example for us all."

Ayotte, Capt. Russell Conte of the State Police Major Crime Unit, and Senior Assistant Attorney General Jeffery Strelzin, chief of the homicide division, detailed what happened Friday night when a routine traffic stop ended the lives of McKay and Kenney.

At 6:30 p.m., McKay pulled over the 1984 Toyota Celica Kenney was driving on Route 116 in Franconia for speeding and a problem with the car's registration. Caleb Macaulay, 21, Kenney's best friend and co-worker at Merrill's Agway in Littleton, was in the passengr seat.

Kenney asked for another officer to handle the traffic stop when he saw it was McKay who pulled him over, according to Conte and friends of Kenney.

McKay and Kenney had a long-standing dislike of each other, according to Kenney's friends and family. Kenney was convicted in 2003 of assaulting a police officer -- McKay -- and resisting arrest, Ayotte said.

Friday, when McKay refused to call in another officer, Kenney drove off. Rob Hayward, who said he talked with Macaulay, said Kenney drove off at a slow speed.

Conte said he did not know how fast McKay was driving when he overtook theToyota about 1 1/2 miles later on Route 116. Strelzin said McKay, who radioed in the pursuit and asked for backup, pulled his cruiser ahead of Kenney's car, forcing him to stop.

The officer then backed his cruiser into Kenney's Toyota, pushing it off the road and preventing Kenney from driving off a second time. McKay used a "small amount of force, not excessive" to move the car, Strelzin said.

The officer got out of his cruiser, walked up to the driver side of Kenney's car and pepper-sprayed both Kenney and Macauley.

Once he sprayed them, McKay walked away -- Conte said either to avoid the spray himself or to go back to his cruiser to check on something. Authorities don't know for sure.

Kenney fired his Colt .45, as McKay walked away, hitting the officer four times in the "upper trunk", according to Ayotte. She and Strelzin both said they had not seen the complete autopsy report and do not know if the officer was shot in the back or the chest. The bullet wounds killed him, according to the autopsy, they said.

McKay collapsed in the road, and then Kenney ran over him, pinning the officer under his car.

Authorities said Floyd and his son, Gregory P. Floyd, 21, were in their 4-door Tahoe and witnessed the shooting. Floyd, who told investigators he is a Marine veteran, immediately positioned his truck to shield the downed officer. Then he picked up McKay's gun, which was on the ground.

Ayotte said investigators are not sure if McKay drew his gun after he was hit by the shots or if it came loose after he was run over by the Toyota.

Floyd pointed the gun at Kenney, who was still in his car holding the Colt .45, and told him to drop the gun. When Kenney failed to comply, Floyd pulled the trigger, killing the 24-year-old man.

Ayotte said Floyd's actions appear to be a "justified use of deadly force."

Bode Miller, who once bailed his cousin out of jail, is en route to Franconia, his father said.

Merrill said Kenney was learning the job at Agway, was good with customers and had a "good future here . . . I think it's a shame it had to happen."

AlaskaErik
May 13, 2007, 01:40 PM
cheygriz...there is a correctional officer on this forum that has described the efficiency of pepperspray. Bascially, it is good as a blinding agent, but the pain can cause a surge of adrenline enraging the subject.

I've been around a number of OC applications. End result...the sprayee breaks weak and gives up. And if you let them stew in it for a while, they'll be begging for relief.

Biker
May 13, 2007, 01:45 PM
It was the worst stuff *I* ever experienced...even worse than my second marriage.

Biker

natjan
May 13, 2007, 02:11 PM
In NYC or England they would probably be prosecuting the passerby.
You are correct in England the passerby would have ended up being arrested & jailed for manslaughter. ( although being a soldier he would probably been freed on appeal or given a suspended sentance )

pax
May 13, 2007, 02:38 PM
I've been around a number of OC applications. End result...the sprayee breaks weak and gives up. And if you let them stew in it for a while, they'll be begging for relief.

In my OC class, I watched one skinny little redhead take three solid hits of Fox spray, shrug, and ask, "Was that it?" She then looked around (eyes wide open), and -- directed to the water buckets -- splashed a purely token sprinkle of water on her face before stepping away to watch the rest of the class.

pax

10 Ring Tao
May 13, 2007, 03:16 PM
McKay, a 12-year veteran of the Franconia Police Department, was not wearing a bullet-resistant vest.

Doing traffic stops without a vest? :what:

qlajlu
May 13, 2007, 03:21 PM
Now hold on! Something is not making any sense here. What is missing?

From the article in lgsracer's post:
McKay's cruiser videotaped the incident. The tape shows McKay, who had not drawn his gun, being shot by Kenney, according to Attorney General Kelly Ayotte.
So they have a video that shows the officer "being shot by Kenney" and they can't tell us if McKay was shot in the back?

I'm not saying something smells fishy but we're missing some vital information!

Doing traffic stops without a vest?
10 Ring Tao, being a very small department, I can understand why the officer didn't have a vest. They don't just give those things away. The department probably couldn't afford it and I doubt officers of a small department make the kind of change required to buy one.

Rachen
May 13, 2007, 03:57 PM
That was truly incredible. This really shows that Americans are aware of the perils in their communities. It is time to take the streets and the alleys back from the night prowlers, the mercenaries, and the misfits. America belongs to Americans, we must revive the nationalism that Thomas Jefferson set down for us so long ago.

Gregory Floyd is a TRUE HERO. We must be wary of weak Liberal education, those who tell us that we sit still like obedient dogs when a madman is shooting up a classroom, and revive the spirit that creates strong men.

WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO STAY OFF THE STREETS AFTER DARK BECAUSE THE CRIMINALS ARE TAKING OVER. THE STREETS BELONG TO THE PEOPLE.

RON PAUL FOR 2008!!!!!

AR-15 Rep
May 13, 2007, 04:09 PM
I still think there is some facts missing from the whole incident. I may be wrong but doesn't most video from cruisers show the front view only? I guess they could easily show the rear but?? if the officer pushed the front of the car with his cruiser, would he then block the rear of the car, or stay in front? what made him turn away from the individuals inside the car? was the passenger getting out of the car? all sorts of questions.

Desertdog
May 13, 2007, 05:24 PM
Passing citizen kills police officer's murderer
Beverly Wang - Associated Press Writer
OneNewsNow.com
http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/05/passing_citizen_kills_police_o.php


FRANCONIA, N.H. - A cousin of skiing star Bode Miller fatally shot and ran over a police officer Friday, but was then killed by a passer-by who stopped to help the officer.

Liko Kenney shot Cpl. Bruce McKay four times and ran over him after a traffic stop Friday evening, state Attorney General Kelly Ayotte said. Gregory Floyd, who was driving by with his son, grabbed the officer's gun and shot Kenney when the attacker refused to put his gun down, Ayotte said.

The 24-year-old Kenney had been convicted of assaulting McKay and resisting arrest in 2003. Ayotte had no other details of that previous incident between the men, and rejected suggestions the officer should have let someone else handle the traffic stop given his history with the driver.

Officials said McKay pulled Kenney over for speeding on Route 116. Kenney took off, and McKay pursued him for about 1 1/2 miles before pulling in front of Kenney's car and pushing it off the road.

The officer used pepper spray on Kenney and his passenger, but was shot when he turned around to return to his vehicle, Ayotte said Saturday at a news conference in Concord. Soon after, Floyd arrived and confronted Kenney with the dying officer's gun while his son called for help using the McKay's radio. Authorities said Floyd was justified in shooting Kenney.

The 48-year-old McKay was a 12-year veteran of the Franconia Police Department.

"It really tears at the fabric of the community and the fabric of the state," said Gov. John Lynch, who visited the town of about 900 residents Saturday as people paid their respects and brought flowers to a police station.

Bode Miller's father, Woody Miller, said there was a history of animosity between the officer and his nephew.

"They had a long relationship," said Miller, who operates an international tennis camp in nearby Easton. "There's been physical altercations between them before in the course of being arrested."

Miller said Kenney, who lived next door to him, didn't have a steady job, but often took work cutting firewood and picking fiddlehead ferns, a wild green that grows in the region and is considered a delicacy.

Bode Miller, who once bailed his cousin out of jail, was on his way home to Franconia, his father said. Miller was in Park City, Utah, this week, meeting with officials of the U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association. At that meeting, the former Olympic medalist told officials he was cutting his ties with the U.S. team.

The shooting happened near this town in the White Mountain National Forest, popular with skiers and tourists who visited the Old Man of the Mountain, a rock formation and the state's symbol that crumbled into pieces four years ago.

cheygriz
May 13, 2007, 05:28 PM
cheygriz ~

Even when properly employed, there are a (small) number of people who are immune to the effects of pepper spray.


Absolutely correct. And there are a small number of people that will only become enraged when hit COM with a couple of .45s.


But pepper spray has never failed ME in several dozen uses, and my son has a stopped a bear with it when he was a park ranger.

I guess my problem with the previous post is that someone who has never been personally sprayed with it really has no idea how bad it is. Mace was extremely effective on MOST people, (certainly not all) and in my experience having used both, pepper is 10X more effective than Mace. (On MOST people)

Rattlesnake
May 13, 2007, 06:34 PM
turns out the Good Samaritan was a Marine. Good shooting Mr. Floyd.

RIP Officer McKay.

Erebus
May 13, 2007, 06:56 PM
Here's another article with some more info. Apparently the justification came when Floyd ordered Kenney to drop his weapon and Kenney reloaded.

And the officer's 2 girls who lost their Daddy.

Feud turned deadly in N.H.
Passerby guns down police officer's killer
By Michael Levenson and John M Guilfoil, Globe Correspondent | May 13, 2007

FRANCONIA, N.H. -- New Hampshire authorities said yesterday that they will not press charges against a former Marine who stepped into a deadly shooting and killed a 24-year-old high school dropout who had moments earlier fatally shot a police officer.

The former Marine, Gregory W. Floyd, 49, was driving with his son along Route 116 in Franconia on Friday night when he saw Liko Kenney, 24, shoot Franconia Police Corporal Bruce McKay, 48, four times in the torso. After Kenney drove his Toyota Celica over McKay as the officer lay on the ground, Floyd grabbed the officer's service weapon and shot and killed Kenney.

Authorities said the double shooting was the bloody climax of a long-simmering feud between McKay, a 12-year-veteran of the three-member department, and Kenney, a cousin of World Cup champion skier Bode Miller.

In 2003, Kenney was convicted of assaulting McKay, authorities said. Kenney had contended that McKay had assaulted him, breaking his jaw and leaving him in a coma, according to Bode Miller's father, Woody.

"It was a bad mixture waiting to happen," said Connie McKenzie , a nurse who said she had tried to ad minister CPR to McKay on the lawn in front of her 18th-century farmhouse on Route 116. "They hated each other."

New Hampshire's attorney general, Kelly A. Ayotte, said Floyd will not face charges because he was justified in using deadly force.

"Based on the results of the investigation, our conclusion is that Gregory Floyd's actions were justified based upon dangerous circumstances confronted with and efforts to assist McKay," Ayotte said at a news conference in Concord.

Captain Russell Conte of the New Hampshire State Police condemned the slaying of McKay, a New York native who had a 9-year-old daughter, Courtney, and in June was to marry his fiancée, who has a 14-year-old daughter, Kylea.

"Something this egregious affects everyone in law enforcement, and it is the ultimate act of defiance for someone to shoot a police officer when he's doing his duties," Conte said.

The attack unfolded Friday at about 6:30 p.m. after McKay stopped Kenney for speeding on Route 116, a two-lane country road dotted with wooden barns in this rugged, picturesque town 80 miles north of Concord.

Neighbors said Kenney was driving home from his job at a market in nearby Littleton with a friend, identified by authorities as Caleb Macaulay, 21. Kenney told McKay to "get another officer," and then he sped off, according to Ayotte. McKay gave chase in his cruiser, caught Kenney about a mile and a half down the road, and stopped his car in front of Kenney's car, forcing Kenney to stop. McKay then sprayed Kenney with OC spray, an irritant similar to pepper spray, and backed away from the vehicle, Ayotte said.

Kenney pulled out a .45-caliber handgun and shot McKay four times. As McKay stumbled across the road, bleeding, Kenney ran his vehicle over the dying officer, Ayotte said.

Floyd, who had been driving by in a Chevrolet Tahoe with his son, also named Gregory P. Floyd, saw the entire scene, Ayotte said. A video camera in McKay's cruiser also recorded the shooting, Ayotte said.

The elder Floyd drove his Tahoe into a spot between McKay and Kenney as a shield and told his son, who is in his late teens, to run to the officer's cruiser and radio for help.

The elder Floyd picked up McKay's gun from the ground and ordered Kenney to drop his weapon. Kenney refused, and Floyd saw Kenney appear to be reloading, Conte said. Floyd then shot and killed Kenney, Conte said.

The slayings brought to light a deep history of tensions between members of the Kenney family and McKay. In 2003, Kenney had challenged the assault charge, alleging that McKay had assaulted him and broken his jaw, Woody Miller said. But Kenney lost the case -- officials yesterday were unable to say what his punishment was -- because there were no witnesses to corroborate his account, Woody Miller said.

After the case, police had agreed that if McKay ever stopped Kenney, Kenney could request that another officer come to the scene, Woody Miller said. Bode Miller had also had confrontations with McKay, and had gone to court in 2005 after McKay ticketed him for driving 83 miles per hour in a 40- mile-per-hour zone. Bode Miller told Sports Illustrated at the time that he wanted "to try to get my fine reduced and to antagonize McKay."

The shootings reverberated throughout Franconia yesterday, where the American flag outside the white clapboard Town Hall was lowered to half-staff.

Kenney lived alone in a cabin built by his father in the woodlands off Route 116, just over the border in neighboring Easton. He raised chickens and turkeys and liked to ride his all-terrain vehicle, said his uncle, Bill Kenney.

The uncle said Kenney " had a rough life, a tough background, but it seemed like he was in the process of changing these past few weeks."

"I don't know what triggered that, but basically he's the type of guy that's an independent-minded fella. He doesn't buy people telling him what to do, maybe a little stubborn," Bill Kenney said yesterday . "He's basically a good-hearted kid. He'd had some trouble in his past and his upbringing as so many young people do, and he's a Kenney, and it's a family thing. We've been around here for hundreds of years basically . . . he's as native as you can get."

At Town Hall, about 20 residents gathered yesterday afternoon to mourn the death of McKay.

"He was just a nice guy," said Sally Small, the town administrative assistant. "Obviously he and Liko Kenney had issues, but there were just as many people who thought he was very professional. He was usually the officer who would prosecute cases at the court. He did his job."

Robert Thibault, town clerk in Easton and a former selectman, said he knows Floyd because Floyd had stopped into the town offices to have his truck registered. "He seems like a nice guy," said Thibault. "I'm glad somebody did something to try to stop Liko. It was a pretty brave thing to do. Unfortunately it was too late."

Steven Heath, owner of Franconia Village Store on Main Street, said Floyd walked into his shop yesterday at about 1:30 p.m., looking for copies of local newspapers.

Floyd was dressed in a T-shirt and shorts and using a cane. "He had a slight limp," Heath said.

Floyd asked the clerk for the newspapers, Heath said, and when she told him they were all sold out, he replied, "I'm the person who shot the kid."

John Guilfoil reported from Concord, N.H. Tracy Jan and Christine McConville of the Globe staff and Globe correspondents Danielle Capalbo and Stephanie Peter contributed to this report. Michael Levenson can be reached at mlevenson@globe.com.

Deaf Smith
May 13, 2007, 07:57 PM
Well the scum is now in the land of no parole. I hope it's real hot where he is at. Mr. Floyd not only kept further tragedy from happening, but he also saved the taxpayers a bundle. He has no need to regret what he did. He did right, and won.

gezzer
May 13, 2007, 08:07 PM
Godspeed Mr. Floyd, you are a true hero.

mlandman
May 13, 2007, 10:24 PM
cheygriz posted on 6/13 @ 11:47AMNo, it doesn't! And I speak from considerable experience, because I have USED pepper spray on several dozens of occassions.

And it has NEVER failed me.



It has never failed you yet. Be aware that there are many cases of Pepper Spray not stopping an attack. Take a look at the thread here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=274497&highlight=sprayed)and be careful.
Good luck to you and be safe,
M

PS.

I am glad you are aware that it works on most subjects.

hankdatank1362
May 14, 2007, 12:14 AM
I hope that miserable cop-killing SOB was gutshot and got to feel every minute of it.

brerrabbit
May 14, 2007, 07:33 AM
Good solid High road comments folks.

There were personal issues involved in this case on both sides. I really do not think we have heard anything close to the whole story. Just as in the cops behaving badly threads, I think we might want to reserve judgement.

EmGeeGeorge
May 14, 2007, 07:44 AM
"personal issues"? when I have personal issues I don't shoot someone then run them over... If the police officer had stepped outside his authority in the past, in today's climate, don't you think he would have a. lost his job, b. been charged criminally, c. been sued civilly... etc?

It may not be the whole story but.... I don't think it is ever a good thing when a life is lost unneccesarily... two lives were lost unneccesarily... but the actions of one man, who didn't want to stop for a police oficer, who didn't want to cooperate, who fired a pistol first, then after shooting the officer ran him over-precipitated the loss of both lives...

brerrabbit
May 14, 2007, 07:54 AM
Personal issues explains a lot, I could very easily make a case for the cop having it in for the guy, and just pushed the man one step too far, one too many times using his authority as a cop to handle a personal grudge.

The thing is, we do not know the whole story or the history involved.

scbair
May 14, 2007, 08:04 AM
As an ex-cop, I mourn the loss of this officer. On the other hand, there's undoubtedly a lot to this tale yet to be told.

To those automatically praising the LEO and condemning Kenney, what if Kenney had been a 90 year old lady in Atlanta??? Conversely, if that Atlanta debacle had involved a young, healthy male resident with (gasp!!) a prior conviction on his record, the whole story would have never come out.

Cops can carry grudges, too, folks! I've seen that in action. :o

pacodelahoya
May 14, 2007, 08:13 AM
I would like to kow the extent of thier dealings in the past. I have read on other threads that there were allegations of beatings and misconduct on the slain officers part against Kenney. Why did he spray the passenger too.

Lots of questions unanswered.

I personally had the chief of police get out of his car and come around to the passenger side of it(where I was talking to him through the open passenger window in of the car while it was parked in my driveway), he placed his hand on the butt of his pistol and said that my best bet was to get back into my house. This after I asked him why the zoning laws were only enforced agaisnt me and not the neighbor who happens to be township fire marshall.

I did not curse nor threaten him, though I will admit I was upset.

I am not condoning nor excusing killing the police officer, but some people can be pushed too far. Regardless, he has paid the price for his crime.

Call me a hater, but I'll bet that there is much more to this story that we'll never know about.

WeedWhacker
May 14, 2007, 08:16 AM
Authorities said the double shooting was the bloody climax of a long-simmering feud between McKay [...] and Kenney [...]

[b]McKay stopped Kenney for speeding on Route 116, a two-lane country road dotted with wooden barns in this rugged, picturesque town 80 miles north of Concord.

Neighbors said Kenney was driving home from his job at a market in nearby Littleton with a friend, identified by authorities as Caleb Macaulay, 21. Kenney told McKay to "get another officer," and then he sped off, according to Ayotte. McKay gave chase in his cruiser, caught Kenney about a mile and a half down the road, and stopped his car in front of Kenney's car, forcing Kenney to stop. McKay then sprayed Kenney with OC spray, an irritant similar to pepper spray, and backed away from the vehicle, Ayotte said.

Kenney pulled out a .45-caliber handgun and shot McKay four times. [...]

The town in question is a very small one, not some bustling metropolis infamous for high-speed chases, etc. Speeding isn't a felony nor a misdemeanor (in any state I've lived in thus far, merely a "civil" infraction). The whole incident could have been avoided at one of several points: Kenney not speeding, McKay not pursuing Kenney for a civil infraction, Kenney not leaving the scene (instead of simply waiting there and refusing to talk/roll down the window, etc.), McKay not chasing after Kenney (small town, known agent, remember?), McKay not hosing down Kenney with pepper spray, Kenney not blowing his top and using lethal force...

Was Kenney innocent? No.

Was McKay innocent? Sure doesn't look like it.

Too bad things ended in deaths.

30 cal slob
May 14, 2007, 08:17 AM
bad blood between a cop an his neighbor.

this is an unusual circumstance.

sad.

kellyj00
May 14, 2007, 09:19 AM
I hope this doesn't bug this Floyd fella too much, he did the right thing.

Sorry that the fella felt like he had to shoot a cop, sorry that the cop got shot.

What's wrong with people? So a cop may be strict and a bit mean by pepper spraying you, but do you have to shoot? Then run him over? Come on, that's pretty cold.

SDC
May 14, 2007, 09:33 AM
The Boston Globe has some more info on this pair's past history, and it makes it sound like Floyd was lucky to NOT be charged;

http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2007/05/13/feud_turned_deadly_in_nh/

Home > News > Local > N.H.

Feud turned deadly in N.H.
Passerby guns down police officer's killer
By Michael Levenson and John M Guilfoil, Globe Correspondent | May 13, 2007

FRANCONIA, N.H. -- New Hampshire authorities said yesterday that they will not press charges against a former Marine who stepped into a deadly shooting and killed a 24-year-old high school dropout who had moments earlier fatally shot a police officer.

The former Marine, Gregory W. Floyd, 49, was driving with his son along Route 116 in Franconia on Friday night when he saw Liko Kenney, 24, shoot Franconia Police Corporal Bruce McKay, 48, four times in the torso. After Kenney drove his Toyota Celica over McKay as the officer lay on the ground, Floyd grabbed the officer's service weapon and shot and killed Kenney.

Authorities said the double shooting was the bloody climax of a long-simmering feud between McKay, a 12-year-veteran of the three-member department, and Kenney, a cousin of World Cup champion skier Bode Miller.

In 2003, Kenney was convicted of assaulting McKay, authorities said. Kenney had contended that McKay had assaulted him, breaking his jaw and leaving him in a coma, according to Bode Miller's father, Woody.

"It was a bad mixture waiting to happen," said Connie McKenzie , a nurse who said she had tried to ad minister CPR to McKay on the lawn in front of her 18th-century farmhouse on Route 116. "They hated each other."

New Hampshire's attorney general, Kelly A. Ayotte, said Floyd will not face charges because he was justified in using deadly force.

"Based on the results of the investigation, our conclusion is that Gregory Floyd's actions were justified based upon dangerous circumstances confronted with and efforts to assist McKay," Ayotte said at a news conference in Concord.

Captain Russell Conte of the New Hampshire State Police condemned the slaying of McKay, a New York native who had a 9-year-old daughter, Courtney, and in June was to marry his fiancée, who has a 14-year-old daughter, Kylea.

"Something this egregious affects everyone in law enforcement, and it is the ultimate act of defiance for someone to shoot a police officer when he's doing his duties," Conte said.

The attack unfolded Friday at about 6:30 p.m. after McKay stopped Kenney for speeding on Route 116, a two-lane country road dotted with wooden barns in this rugged, picturesque town 80 miles north of Concord.

Neighbors said Kenney was driving home from his job at a market in nearby Littleton with a friend, identified by authorities as Caleb Macaulay, 21. Kenney told McKay to "get another officer," and then he sped off, according to Ayotte. McKay gave chase in his cruiser, caught Kenney about a mile and a half down the road, and stopped his car in front of Kenney's car, forcing Kenney to stop. McKay then sprayed Kenney with OC spray, an irritant similar to pepper spray, and backed away from the vehicle, Ayotte said.

Kenney pulled out a .45-caliber handgun and shot McKay four times. As McKay stumbled across the road, bleeding, Kenney ran his vehicle over the dying officer, Ayotte said.
Floyd, who had been driving by in a Chevrolet Tahoe with his son, also named Gregory P. Floyd, saw the entire scene, Ayotte said. A video camera in McKay's cruiser also recorded the shooting, Ayotte said.

The elder Floyd drove his Tahoe into a spot between McKay and Kenney as a shield and told his son, who is in his late teens, to run to the officer's cruiser and radio for help.

The elder Floyd picked up McKay's gun from the ground and ordered Kenney to drop his weapon. Kenney refused, and Floyd saw Kenney appear to be reloading, Conte said. Floyd then shot and killed Kenney, Conte said.

The slayings brought to light a deep history of tensions between members of the Kenney family and McKay. In 2003, Kenney had challenged the assault charge, alleging that McKay had assaulted him and broken his jaw, Woody Miller said. But Kenney lost the case -- officials yesterday were unable to say what his punishment was -- because there were no witnesses to corroborate his account, Woody Miller said.

After the case, police had agreed that if McKay ever stopped Kenney, Kenney could request that another officer come to the scene, Woody Miller said. Bode Miller had also had confrontations with McKay, and had gone to court in 2005 after McKay ticketed him for driving 83 miles per hour in a 40- mile-per-hour zone. Bode Miller told Sports Illustrated at the time that he wanted "to try to get my fine reduced and to antagonize McKay."

The shootings reverberated throughout Franconia yesterday, where the American flag outside the white clapboard Town Hall was lowered to half-staff.

Kenney lived alone in a cabin built by his father in the woodlands off Route 116, just over the border in neighboring Easton. He raised chickens and turkeys and liked to ride his all-terrain vehicle, said his uncle, Bill Kenney.

The uncle said Kenney " had a rough life, a tough background, but it seemed like he was in the process of changing these past few weeks."

"I don't know what triggered that, but basically he's the type of guy that's an independent-minded fella. He doesn't buy people telling him what to do, maybe a little stubborn," Bill Kenney said yesterday . "He's basically a good-hearted kid. He'd had some trouble in his past and his upbringing as so many young people do, and he's a Kenney, and it's a family thing. We've been around here for hundreds of years basically . . . he's as native as you can get."

At Town Hall, about 20 residents gathered yesterday afternoon to mourn the death of McKay.

"He was just a nice guy," said Sally Small, the town administrative assistant. "Obviously he and Liko Kenney had issues, but there were just as many people who thought he was very professional. He was usually the officer who would prosecute cases at the court. He did his job."

Robert Thibault, town clerk in Easton and a former selectman, said he knows Floyd because Floyd had stopped into the town offices to have his truck registered. "He seems like a nice guy," said Thibault. "I'm glad somebody did something to try to stop Liko. It was a pretty brave thing to do. Unfortunately it was too late."

Steven Heath, owner of Franconia Village Store on Main Street, said Floyd walked into his shop yesterday at about 1:30 p.m., looking for copies of local newspapers.

Floyd was dressed in a T-shirt and shorts and using a cane. "He had a slight limp," Heath said.

Floyd asked the clerk for the newspapers, Heath said, and when she told him they were all sold out, he replied, "I'm the person who shot the kid."

REOIV
May 14, 2007, 09:35 AM
The whole situation is wonky.

It is horrible that people died, but there was definately something going on between McKay and Kenney that led to this.

McKay did ask for another officer and had his jaw broken by Kenney before, plus he lost his suit against the officer because it came down to he said/he said debate.

I can see why this could have been the 'pushed to far' incident.

willbrink
May 14, 2007, 09:50 AM
"The officer got out of his cruiser, walked up to the driver side of Kenney's car and pepper-sprayed both Kenney and Macauley."

Is that SOP?

cassandrasdaddy
May 14, 2007, 09:58 AM
you got a cop shot 4 times and run over and video of it. the kid was described by his own family in less than the usual "he was a good boy" terms. and yet the usual suspects wanna defend him?! sad stuff.
muzt be nice to live in a world where you can pick what cop writes you up when you speed. different world than the one i live in

News Shooter
May 14, 2007, 10:01 AM
What in that story makes it appear Floyd was lucky to have not been charged, because he wanted to buy a newspaper??

brerrabbit
May 14, 2007, 10:06 AM
Sorry cassandrasdaddy

The local PD had already recognized that there was a lot of bad blood between the two, thats was why they gave him the right to get another officer if he was pulled over. The alternative was recognizing that an officer was possibly abusing his authority which would require more administrative action.

Based on the press release, the first thing the officer did when he pulled over the vehicle was to OC spray the occupants. Normal procedure?

This was not IMHO a cop behaving badly nor the case of a man arbitrarily killing a boy in blue. There was a personal feud going on between the two, there was a lot of history between them.

willbrink
May 14, 2007, 10:07 AM
Real tough one for the media to deal with. Ignor or distort the story as they normally do or make him a hero as he didn't use an evil personal gun but the LEOs gun? The state should give the man a medal of some sort, but save a cat in a tree, get a medal, kill a cop killer, and either get ignored (at best) or charges against you. You can bet the working cops will thank him, but may not be allowed to do so in public. Some years ago, a CCW shot the tires out of some fleeing bank robbers in NH I recall, and that was ignored by the media also I recall.

WeedWhacker
May 14, 2007, 10:11 AM
muzt be nice to live in a world where you can pick what cop writes you up when you speed. different world than the one i live in

Pretty much anyone can do this - ask for the Sergeant or supervisor.

(Not sure what the exact phrase is if the supe pulls you over in the first place. ;D

SDC
May 14, 2007, 10:35 AM
The spin the paper was putting on it was that Floyd "gunned down" this wingnut for no good reason.

cassandrasdaddy
May 14, 2007, 10:36 AM
"Based on the press release, the first thing the officer did when he pulled over the vehicle was to OC spray the occupants. Normal procedure? "

normal when you drive off after being pulled over.



my read was this kid was one of those folks that go through life withan atttitude. his own family alludes to it. hard world for guys like that when they aren't a cute kid anymore and face accountability



and if you ask for a supervisor do you then get to drive away without waiting for one? vid tape will be interesting

brerrabbit
May 14, 2007, 10:43 AM
Cassandrassdaddy

Sorry, but if I am ever OC sprayed by a policeman without me resisting after I have pulled over, my first reaction would quite likely be to shoot also.

Cops do not have free reign to act as thugs, nor do many of them act as thugs. The cop in question broke the guys jaw once, and in court, the only reason the cop got off was because he was a cop. I would be willing to bet this policeman had been warned not to involve himself with this guy by his superiors and disregarded it. Small town rules are different than the big cities.

There is a lot to this story we are not hearing.

cassandrasdaddy
May 14, 2007, 11:06 AM
if i drove away after being stopped for speeding i'd expect something along the lines of oc. not sure where you lic\ve but fleeing has always been bad in my world. some might call it resisting. and in the world of new hampshire was this young lad legal? after an assault on a cop might lil johny have been worried about the gun he was about to get caught with? autopsy might be revealing. i'm finding too lil noise dfrom boys kin. i've found that happens when folks "knew something bad was gonna happen." seen it too often

brerrabbit
May 14, 2007, 11:12 AM
Cassandrassdaddy

I can also make the argument that there has been too little noise from the local PD. As you have said , they knew something bad might happen also.

The local PD knew there was bad blood between the two but did the absolute minimum to shut it down. Who is at fault?

I think in this case there is enough fault to pass around on both sides.

SSN Vet
May 14, 2007, 11:39 AM
More local articles...........

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070513/NEWS0201/105130155

http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070514/NEWS0201/105140184

Paper doesn't want to make the relative of a favorite son (Bodie Miller) look bad by telling you he shot an officer in the back.

If you ever follow the exploits of Bode Miller.....you'd probably agree he's an absolute idiot and a druggie....quintisential child of privelage (elite private ski high school) who grows up thinking he's above all societal restraints (even the U.S. Ski team had to discipline him after he got in trouble for partying at the Olympics......OBTW...he didn't bring home any medals!)

Article states that when Miller was pulled over in 2005 for going 83 mph in a 40 mph ,,,,,,,,,,he chose to contest the ticket "to antagonize McKay."

Looks like being a loser runs in the family.

Thank God the passerby sealed his fate and we don't have to listen to him use police brutality as his excuse to get off lite on a murder charge.

Sistema1927
May 14, 2007, 11:57 AM
A bad deal all the way around.

one-shot-one
May 14, 2007, 12:22 PM
for those that are sugesting the officer acted badly to bring this on, you might be able to convince some that kenney felt threatend by mckay & shot him (maybe) but to then run over him with the car sorry, high road or not kenney got what he deserved.

REOIV
May 14, 2007, 12:25 PM
So his option was expect the guy he has bad blood with to get another officer and sit there hoping he does or just drive off knowing full well they know who he is, and any other officer could go to his house to deal with the speeding ticket/other problems etc.

He drove off from an officer he had prior issues with before.

Then after being driven off the road the officer's response is to pepper spray the guy. I haven't heard yet if he called for back up, if he was told to let the guy go and was acting out of a grudge etc.

There is so much here we don't know, an already shaky background between the two. To say either deserved it or was correct in their actions is ridiculous at this point.

All that is known is 2 people are dead because of stupidity all around.

What disturbs me is how much leeway people give police officers, respect sure but they aren't above the law. They can be human and have flaws, grudges, and might not always act lawfully.

Many small town police turn a blind eye to things that in the big city wouldn't be tolerated. They do it because small towns have a tight community. Chances are small town police goto church/ went to school/ are friends with the people they are policing. And many times they pull over people who have been arrested before for minor things that they would let slide on other drivers.

Course the opposite holds true I have been in big cities and seen people get away with some horrible traffic violations in front of a cop that would never ever fly in a small town. But that could be because the big city police actually have something to do other than bust people for burning leaves, kids vandalizing things and domestic disturbances. When you live in a place that averages 1 murder every 5-10 years chances are the police are bored. Most of the time the cops in the small towns I have been in had to deal with drunk driver accidents and suicides more than actual violent crimes. Heck most people didn't lock their doors and some left their keys in the car.

The first guy is at fault for driving away,escalating the whole situation and killing the officer.
The cop is at fault for, apparently, not calling in back up before pulling over this guy he has a history with and turning his back on someone he just pepper sprayed. I know that I would be leery of having anything to do with a guy that has sued me once before for doing my job and would make sure every time from then on had witnesses and was nothing but professional.

I just wish there was more information about the whole thing.

SkiLune
May 14, 2007, 12:25 PM
Good solid High road comments folks.

There were personal issues involved in this case on both sides. I really do not think we have heard anything close to the whole story. Just as in the cops behaving badly threads, I think we might want to reserve judgement.

I agree. These two have been at it for years. There is more to this story.
Condolences for the dead.

REOIV
May 14, 2007, 12:27 PM
I am wondering if he ran over the guy before being shot or afterwards.

And did he stick around after running over the officer and then the bystander showed up or did the bystander flag him down and then try to get him to drop his gun.

This is what i mean there isn't enough information.

SkiLune
May 14, 2007, 12:32 PM
Ironically, from the same edition of the Manchester Union Leader is a story of how two cases of PD misconduct are now going to Federal Court. Murder can never be justified, but the kid who shot the cop four times and then ran him over, clearly snapped.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Chester+police+facing+lawsuits+alleging+police+misconduct&articleId=88a88490-1f2e-4414-9309-ff0b73c8a18b

SkiLune
May 14, 2007, 12:46 PM
And, here is an excerpt from an article in today's Nashua Telegraph:

"Kenney and McKay knew and disliked each other. Kenney, whose cousin is famous skier Bode Miller, had been convicted of assaulting McKay in 2003, and Kenney’s family said the officer had broken Kenney’s jaw when he responded to an underage party several years ago. “They had bad blood going for a long time,” said Kenney’s uncle, Bill Kenney.

Some area residents felt McKay was too tough on young people in town.

“He was a local law enforcement officer in a small town, and he felt he was doing what was right,” said Tom Palmer, who owns the Stoney Brook Motel. “He created some hard feelings in town, but we were friends with him and he was always very professional with us.”

Police Sgt. Mark Taylor said McKay had been on the force for 12 years. He was the prosecutor for the department, which has three full-time officers and three part-time officers.

The Rev. Gary Hart of the Community Church said that during a harsh storm last month, McKay went out of his way to make sure the town’s elderly residents were safe and helped coordinate shelter arrangements. But, Hart told the New Hampshire Sunday News, “some thought he was rigid in coming down on the side of the law.”

“It’s hard to be a police officer in a small town,” Hart added. “He gave his heart and soul to the job before he gave his life to it.”

Bill Kenney described McKay as a “rogue cop” who had targeted his nephew and family for years.

“McKay stomped on him when he was a teenager,” he said, referring to the party incident several years ago. Kenney’s family said he tried to pursue the matter in court but nothing came of it because there were no other witnesses.

Bill Kenney described his nephew as troubled, but not violent.

“He was definitely part of the family, but we all had a little bit of a tenuous relationship with Liko,” he told the Concord Monitor. “I consider him a loose cannon, volatile.”

Kenney was born in Easton but spent much of his early years in Hawaii, where his parents own a coffee plantation. His uncle said he had a rough upbringing and dropped out of school by 10th grade.

Three weeks ago, Kenney started a new job at the Agway in Littleton. Owner Don Merrill said Kenney was a hard worker.

“He got along beautifully with the customers,” Merrill said. “He was learning all the ropes and doing quite well. He had a good future here.”

Rob Hayward knew both men well. He had been a friend of McKay’s since McKay joined the police department, and Kenney had been a close friend of his son, who was killed in a car accident in 2005. Kenney still kept in touch with Hayward and visited him Friday morning.

Hayward said McKay treated him with respect but said young people in town complained about problems with the officer. Kenney was “very, very afraid of Officer McKay,” he said.

“He was a good boy and I can’t understand what brought it to this,” he told the Monitor. “Officer McKay was a good officer. Those two had their problems, but I don’t understand how it got so escalated.”

Essex County
May 14, 2007, 01:14 PM
I knew none of the parties, however my daughter knew both the officer and his killer. A real tradgedy to loose a LEO. Local consensus seems to be a police officer, who was fairly agressive confronting a bad news nut case. Last night WCAX Channel 3, out of Burlington sent a newsteam to report from Franconia and they went to Bode Miller's home to interview the family. They were unsucessful. All I know about Miller is a skier and I don't know anything about the sport. Sending a newsteam to Miller's home reeks of the poorest journalism I can think of. Hat's off to Floyd.........Essex

buck00
May 14, 2007, 01:40 PM
I am not condoning nor excusing killing the police officer, but some people can be pushed too far.

Yeah, after he shot him and then decided to run over the body repeatedly that might indidcate there was some bad blood. Sounds like this cop really pissed him off.

KD5NRH
May 14, 2007, 02:05 PM
So his option was expect the guy he has bad blood with to get another officer and sit there hoping he does

Let's see, town of around 1,000 people; according to the Union Leader "McKay was the police prosecutor for the department, which has three full-time officers and three part-time officers." "Another officer" would almost certainly involve waking somebody up and waiting for them to get dressed. Sounds like a great way to have "bad blood" with *two* local cops real soon.

or just drive off knowing full well they know who he is, and any other officer could go to his house to deal with the speeding ticket/other problems etc.

Do you see a lot of that happening? Fleeing is a great way to indicate to an officer that there's something he needs to take a greater interest in. If he suspects DUI or possession of anything untoward, it's certainly in the department's best interest to not let the suspect go home and sober up or dispose of evidence.

He drove off from an officer he had prior issues with before.

Big deal, it's a small town. My town is a lot bigger, and I've been pulled over by the same cop with three different ranks. Considering he's only ticketed me once, I seriously doubt he's watching me and waiting for me to screw up so he can shake me down at every opportunity.

Then after being driven off the road the officer's response is to pepper spray the guy.

Well, he could have kept ramming the car until it was totally disabled, shot out the tires, shot the driver, or he could use pepper spray to disable the driver and keep him from running away again. Sounds to me like a reasonable, if ultimately ineffective choice.

I haven't heard yet if he called for back up, if he was told to let the guy go and was acting out of a grudge etc.

Several stories have stated that he called for backup after Kenney drove off. "Backup," in this case, would almost certainly be from another department, for the reasons stated above, and there's no telling how long it would take to arrive.

IME, small towns don't subscribe to the "if they run, let them go" theory, since it just encourages running, and invites the problems in my second paragraph. In twenty years of scanner listening and BSing with the local LE, I've never seen the city or county departments back off any more than to the limit of visual range to avoid thrown objects or gunfire.

There is so much here we don't know, an already shaky background between the two.

The "shaky background" angle is amusing; the guy was, by all accounts, a dropout deadbeat who couldn't keep a job.

His uncle described him as an "itinerant logger," which sounds a lot like "starving artist," i.e. too lazy, temperamental, and/or untalented to hold a steady job. "He's not the type to be educated. He's self-educated and that's kind of typical of his character...he wouldn't work for anybody, (and) he'd never have anyone work for him." Kenney described his nephew as "a loose cannon." "He was not the friendliest fellow," he said.

Any given one of his counterparts around here has had run-ins with most, if not all, of the local cops, and a few of them have been hospitalized by those run-ins at one time or another. It's an occupational hazard of being trailer trash with an attitude.

The cop is at fault for, apparently, not calling in back up before pulling over this guy he has a history with

See above; odds are his backup has a history with this guy too, odds are even better that after being awakened and made to put on his uniform and drive over there, the backup would immediately start a history with the guy.

and turning his back on someone he just pepper sprayed.

No source has yet stated the reason for his moving away after the spraying, to my knowledge. He could have gotten some blowback from the spray, and was trying to get clear. He might also have seen the gun and tried to run for cover.

I know that I would be leery of having anything to do with a guy that has sued me once before for doing my job and would make sure every time from then on had witnesses and was nothing but professional.

With only three full-timers, most likely the camera was the only witness he could hope for until someone got there from another city, and there's a good chance their mutual aid policy requires something more than a traffic stop of a known low-grade loser.

WayneConrad
May 14, 2007, 03:42 PM
I'm simply amazed at how long and tenuous a chain of supposition and logic humans are capable of creating to justify their point of view.

The actions of the passer-by were lawful and morally right. The man who shot the officer was wrong in every respect. The attempts to understand or rationalize the officer's shooting forget what's important: Shooting the officer wasn't self defense, it was murder.

TallPine
May 14, 2007, 03:50 PM
All I know about Miller is a skier and I don't know anything about the sport.
It has really gone downhill lately.

pacodelahoya
May 14, 2007, 03:51 PM
Don't forget that that officer had broken the speeders jaw and placed him in a coma in the past.

WayneConrad
May 14, 2007, 03:52 PM
Don't forget that that officer had broken the speeders jaw and placed him in a coma in the past.
Revenge is not self defense. It's murder.

Correia
May 14, 2007, 04:26 PM
The mental gymnastics some people are willing to make to justify their own preconceived notions, in this thread, are astounding.

Okay, back up with me for one second here and let's look at this logically.

You are the cop.

You pull somebody over. Even if this is someone you've dealt with before, it is still your job to pull them over for breaking the law.

In rural areas, you often don't have backup. I lived most of my life in the sticks. Response time was around 30 minutes.

So now you've pulled over this guy, and he just takes off.

Why would he run? What would you think? I'm sure some of you will say that he ran because he was trying to protect his sacred constitutional rights, and that this guy was really a libertarian activist like unto Ben Franklin. Well, most of us would probably think that he ran because he was doing something else bad, and he probably didn't want you to see it.

Just like if you run from a dog, it will chase you, same basic rule applies with cops. If I've pulled somebody over, and he drives off, I'm going to assume that he has something he doesn't want me to arrest him for. Whether it is a .2 blood alchohol level, a bag of dope, or a dead hooker in the trunk, it is kind of irrelevant.

But wait, Correia! If it wasn't for the unconstitutional war on drugs, then this wouldn't be an issue.

Okay, let's go with the dead hooker in the trunk then. Either way, if you run, you're gonna get chased.

So the cop chases him down, and pepper sprays him (obviously the action of a jack booted thug :rolleyes: ). I'm gonna guess that if he hadn't run the first time, he probably wouldn't have got sprayed.

Then the bad guy shoots him four times, and DRIVES HIS CAR over the cop. I don't know about you guys, but I'm thinking that there are probably better ways to resolve conflict with the local law, even if you have a personal problem with them.

As for the personal beef, and the fact that this guy got his jaw broke by this cop, and even the good descriptions of said "victim" make it sound like he was a jerk/loser/angry scumbag maybe, just maybe, the jaw breaking was justified.

And even if the jaw breaking wasn't justified, then how was shooting the guy, then driving over him, going to make anything better?

But wait, Correia! Maybe he was pushed TOO FAR by the JACKBOOTED THUGS!

Sure he was. But sane and rational people don't run from the cops, then shoot the cop, and then drive their car over them.

cassandrasdaddy
May 14, 2007, 04:46 PM
you know they are nice boys when family TRYING TO DEFEND HIS REP call him a loose cannon voaltile

REOIV
May 14, 2007, 05:15 PM
Ok lets look at this from the flip side

You are a high school student out partying and the cops bust up your high school party and in the process beat you so badly you are left with a broken jaw possible coma.

The cop that beat you is known for being a hard a** towards juveniles and young people.

You sue the cop for assault and the case is tossed out because of lack of evidence and because it was your word vs the cops on what happened.

Now the cop holds a grudge against you for making him goto court and for being a no good kid.

So every chance he gets he pulls you over for whatever reasons he feels like. You're already a criminal in his eyes. Heck he even goes after people in your family. So people you know and your family go after him by making sure he has to goto every court case and harassing him right back. It is a small town after all.

You get arrested by this guy again but this time instead of letting him rough you up you fight back and get charged with assault on a police officer. Now everyone knows you as the guy that gets in fights with cops and is a 'loose cannon.'

You are told by the people in this town you are allowed to request another officer anytime you are pulled over but surprise the guy in charge is the officer you don't like and have a history with.

Fast forward to these events where you have been pushed and harassed by this cop. All he has to do is get you to slip up once and he's got you. Besides who is going to believe a guy who attacked a cop, doesn't matter if it is the same cop. Cops are beyond reproach its his word vs yours.

You get pulled over again by this guy. who broke your jaw and harassed you. Your only defense is get another officer. What if he tells you they are all asleep, or tough etc, whatever reasons you want to think he could tell this guy.

People run out of fear and anger. He may have driven off because he was tired of this officer harassing him. He could have driven off out of fear of being attacked again. Who knows.

But now that you drove off you have escalated it and when the cop pushes you off the road he walks up and pepper sprays you and your friend.

This is where the break occurs and he decides his only way out is to shoot this cop and drive off. Shooting someone 4 times and driving over them says fear or anger (let alone we aren't sure if he drove over the officer before or after being shot by the pedestrian). It is unclear when exactly he drove over the officer and then how the bystander was able to shoot him when he was reloading.

That said there is enough here that says the cop wasn't a Saint.
It isn't mental gymnastics it is just looking at it rationally.
Yes Kenney was called a loose cannon but McKay was known for being a jerk to young people.

Besides if someone asks you what you though of a cop killer person what would you say? He was an upstanding guy you would love to hang out with?
People distance themselves really quick from those that have committed crimes. If a friend or cousin of yours ended up a child molester or cop killer what would you say to the media about them?

McKay had multiple people report him being rude and mean. So because he was a cop he gets a pass?

The whole situation is bad, I don't excuse Kenney for what he did but there is definitely more to the story than Saint Cop is gunned down by dirt bag loose cannon and then said dirt bag is killed by Hero bystander.

Correia
May 14, 2007, 05:28 PM
Wow. That saga reads like a mini-series. Make the protagonist a good looking woman and it would be a sure hit on Lifetime.

Okay, let's say you're right, and this cop was a dirtbag.

How then is putting to pedal to metal, and driving away, going to SOLVE ANYTHING?

Frustration? Anger?

Whatever, that is a terminal case of stupid.

Even if he was afraid he was going to get beaten again, (which I'm guessing is a streatch) then what did he think was going to happen after he engaged in a chase?

Plus having a fight with a cop, and a personal beef, regardless of whether or not the cop is a jerk, doesn't give you carte blanch to do whatever you want when you interact with said cop.

The cop that beat you is known for being a hard a** towards juveniles and young people. Hate to break it to you, having grown up in teeny-tiny towns, any cop that doesn't actively buy beer for you is a hard case. :scrutiny:

For your hypothetical to be true, we've got to guess on about twenty facts. For the guy to just be a scumbag who murdered a cop, we've only got to guess one. I'm going to go with the guess that the terminally unemployable guy, who his own relatives refer to as volitile, may have had some issues.

I've dealt with bad cops. In fact, I've dealt with a federal agent with a personal vendetta. In none of those situations would shooting them repeatedly and then driving my car over them be justified.

REOIV
May 14, 2007, 05:53 PM
I agree Kenney was stupid and running was the worst decision he could have made that and he is ultimately at fault for escalating this to a chase and then shooting.

But I have seen people that cannot get a job because of a screw up as a kid.

It is that much of a stretch that because of hard a** cop busting you for assault it screwed up any chance of you ever getting a job later on?

We don't make it easy for Felons or ex-criminals to go back to a normal lifestyle what so ever so they are left with what ever jobs they can find and many are forced to lead less than upstanding lives from then on. Not saying it gives Kenney a pass but he could be one of those people that decided to blame his short comings on McKay instead of himself. And that if he could get back at McKay his life would be better.

Meanwhile McKay is amused and has a grudge against Kenney. It happens all the time.

The town I grew up in if you looked under 20 and drove in at anything more than 25 mph one particular officer would pull you over and want to check your car and see if you were high etc. Everyone is school knew what cop it was and made sure to come into and leave town away from his haunts. All the rest of the cops hated this guy because he made them look bad. Parents were always in court and at city council meetings about him saying since he has enough time to lay in wait for teenagers then maybe they don't need such a big budget for x y z.But still it didn't keep him from harassing all the high school kids and teenagers in town.

You could literally watch someone with a kid in the bed of their pick up drive by and that cop not do anything yet a teenager with a busted tail light gets their car searched. Heaven help you if he ever busted you for smoking cigarettes or pot or were friends with someone busted for that. From then on it was always I smelled pot so I had to search the whole car.

He finally ended up getting busted for letting women get out of tickets by giving him oral sex.

I admit I am jaded from seeing stuff like this first hand growing up. But I also knew good cops who always helped me out when we had parking problems and domestic disturbances at the Apartments I managed.Also when people that needed to be picked up for causing problems at the bar.

To me while Kenney seems to be a stupid dirt bag, it is as likely to me that McKay egged him on and enjoyed messing with him.

BullfrogKen
May 14, 2007, 05:54 PM
Uhhh . . . young people everywhere complain about the cops being jerks and shutting down their parties. I see nothing unique by the reporter having success in tracking down "the young people" in town all too willing to give their accounts about what a killjoy he is. (Justin, it appears you aren't the only one).

If reporters found other citizens who were willing to step forth and make a claim to strongarm, authoritarian behavior, I have no doubt we'd see it printed. It appears the only audience stepping forth to make those claims are the younger folks, who probably would say the same thing of their Dads.

How in the hell a guy like Kenney, with his relatives speaking soooo highly of him, gets the benefit of . . . . "well, he could have had a justifiable reason for shooting a Peace Officer, and running over him" astounds me.

Small town cops get away with more??? That's just B.S. Huge B.S. The only reason NYC got away with the "zero tolerance" tactics Juiliani imposed upon them was precisely because its so big. Small town cops have no place to blend in and hide when they act like jerks to their communities. Simply put, they don't last long. Everyone knows who they are . . . they live, shop, and go out to dinner, and go to church in the community with the citizens . . . and when they act like jerks, the Chief, Mayor, and other elected community officials find out who they are, real quick when the good citizens bring the pressure to bear. When the less desireable and more troublesome citizens complain, it carries less weight.


Officer McKay was on camera. I'm quite sure he knew it. I'm quite sure he also knew if he behaved inappropriately, the tape from his cruiser would reflect that.


Some of these leaps really go pretty damned far. But I reckon every tall tale finds a sympathetic ear. John Kerry's portrail of Vietnam Veterans as murderers and rapists did, too.

Correia
May 14, 2007, 06:08 PM
So what if Kenney did blame McKay for his crappy life? It don't make shooting him and running over him okay.

But I have seen people that cannot get a job because of a screw up as a kid. And this is usually compounded by the prison tats on their face, their drug problems, their out of control drinking, and the fact that he beat his girlfriend in the parking lot. :p (sorry, remembering too many job interviews)

And if this cop was a dirtbag, then it wouldn't hardly keep the dead guy from getting a job, because in a small town, everybody would know the cop was a dirtbag, and take that into account when hiring.

But that doesn't sound at all like what happened. It sounds like another multiple-time loser decided to murder someobody.

Meanwhile McKay is amused and has a grudge against Kenney. It happens all the time. Totally possible. Also possible that it was some sort of grand conspiracy, a love triangle, cops on the take, or something even wackier, but without evidence, you're just guessing.

And from what I've seen, often times holding a grudge is pretty normal in small towns. Because you know who your local scumbags are. It isn't like in an urban environment where you have so many scumbags to choose from that they can just kind of blend in with the other scumbags.

REOIV
May 14, 2007, 06:13 PM
Assault rifle is to evil and scary looking as
Person is to what friends and family say about them.

I knew a guy whose father was a Vietnam vet that beat the daylights out of him and his mother regularly. Yet because he was a vet and his kid was a delinquent the dad must be beyond reproach. Which side would you take? The ex-marine Vietnam Vet that was almost beaten to death with a broom handle by his pot head son or the pot head son?

Looking at it most people would side with the vet. Unless you knew the kid and his family and saw how he ran away from home over and over to get away from his nut case father.

Do you have any family members that would love to call you a gun nut?
How about a loose cannon?

Let alone know someone that appears to be cream of the crop but is in reality a loathsome individual?

Its like saying everyone who fought in WWII was a nice guy and fun to hang out with.

Or that everyone who ever had a run in with the law is a dirtbag.

Or all gun owners are murderers waiting to happen.

To me that is the same approach to things as assault weapons are scary.

BullfrogKen
May 14, 2007, 06:26 PM
REOIV,

You're pretty talented at this. Unless you've committed to your career, you'd do well to think about one in Social Work . . . or Defense Litigation.


Neither let little details like evidence get in the way of a good arguement to excuse a prior history of consitently poor behavior.

Correia
May 14, 2007, 06:27 PM
Okay, lots of false analogies and strawmen.

In each and every instance, I would have to go with the facts and the evidence. If the vet is beating his kid then there will be evidence. I personally don't give a damn if the guy got the medal of honor bestowed on him by Thor on the side of Valhalla.

None of those things have anything to do with what we're talking about. For any thing that has ever happened, you can choose another incident that illustrates your "not what it seems" point of view.

However most of the time, the guy that shot the cop and ran him over is going to be the bad guy.

Facts in this one all seem to point to that, unless you start making up all sorts of crazy what ifs. The problem with that is that you can What If yourself to death, but at the end of the day, the facts must speak for themselves.

That is why we have courts of law, and not courts of conjecture.

Biker
May 14, 2007, 07:00 PM
Damn, that was a smooth one, TallPine. Well done.

Biker

SkiLune
May 14, 2007, 07:22 PM
From everything I have read, I think the quote in the Nashua Telegraph article from the person who knew both the murdered officer and his killer is really all that is known at the moment:

“He was a good boy and I can’t understand what brought it to this,” he told the Monitor. “Officer McKay was a good officer. Those two had their problems, but I don’t understand how it got so escalated.”

cassandrasdaddy
May 14, 2007, 08:04 PM
how it got escalated? some mommas boy had a feeling of entitlement that led him to shoot some one 4 times and run over him


i gotta wonder if some of these folks are reading the news reports before they rally round this "poor kid". its always a bad sign when your own family doesn't want you. says the guy who left home at 15. worst thing is a world fulla enablers that help someone who starts out as just a young fool grow into a young adult dimwit who does what ever he wants.

nemoaz
May 14, 2007, 08:45 PM
I knew this thread would draw the kooks like moths to a flame.

inkhead
May 14, 2007, 10:05 PM
I'm don't want to be a jerk, but if your mentally sane, and you are willing to shoot a cop, and wait... so ANGRY that after you effectly killed him, RUN him over, I would guess that there is a reason he was angry, however stupid his actions may have been. People don't display that kind of emotion to random people. They do it to people who they feel hurt, or mistreated by.

Does that make shooting a cop or anyone okay? Hell no.

I'm just trying to offer insight into maybe what transpired. In events like these, people always want to know "Why?"

cassandrasdaddy
May 14, 2007, 10:22 PM
you are sane

as opposed to being called volatile and a loose cannon? by a relative who is trying to paint you in a good liight?
maybe the drop out was just a sore loser after getting his clock cleaned when he tried to whup the cop.

pcosmar
May 14, 2007, 10:26 PM
He killed Kenny?
The bas***ds!!






Sorry.

Albatross
May 15, 2007, 04:01 AM
Live free or die?

Geister
May 15, 2007, 05:07 AM
The department probably couldn't afford it and I doubt officers of a small department make the kind of change required to buy one.

A decent vest only costs a few hundred bucks. In this situation the officer might still be alive.

ATW525
May 15, 2007, 09:53 AM
More on the good samaritan in the Union Leader today, though it's not terribly favorable and tries to paint him as a nut:

Ex-Marine who shot Kenney: 'I don't miss'

EASTON – The passer-by who confronted and killed the gunman in last Friday's police shooting was an expert marksman who used to alarm his neighbors by firing guns on his own property, court records show.

"I am an ex-Marine and an expert shot. I don't miss what I shoot at," Gregory Floyd, 49, told police officers who searched his home in 1997.

Authorities have decided not to charge Floyd in Friday's shooting, ruling he was justified when he fired at Liko Kenney, 24, just moments after watching Kenney shoot and kill Franconia Police Cpl. Bruce McKay.

Kenney's uncle, Bill, said he is not angry at Floyd.

"I thank him," Bill Kenney said yesterday. "He did an amazing thing."

A "loner" by reputation, Floyd has declined to speak with reporters since the shootings. A woman who answered the phone at his house Sunday said, "This is a private, unlisted, unpublished number. Please don't call again."

Residents in the rural White Mountains town of Easton, home to about 280 people, said they tend to keep away from Floyd, just as he keeps away from them. His property on the southern edge of town is said to be guarded by Rottweilers.

"He's the type of person I'd be very leery of," said Bob Every, the town's former police chief.

Court records show Floyd has had several run-ins with the law over the years. His record includes a 1998 conviction for attempting to knee a police trooper in the groin and a 1997 indictment, later dismissed, for being a felon in possession of weapons.

Authorities searched Floyd's cabin exactly 10 years ago this week after neighbors told then-chief Every they thought Floyd was discharging "fully automatic weapons" on his property, according to documents on file in Littleton District Court.

Floyd at one point apologized for shooting a gun, telling neighbors he was "shooting to scare off bears so his son could sleep," the documents say.

A search of his house turned up six guns, including a Glock 9mm pistol, an Ithaca 12-gauge shotgun and a Rugar Black Hawk handgun, but no automatics.

Floyd and his wife, Michelle, had moved to the area from Townsend, Mass., about six months before that. A record check in that state showed that while there had been arrests for assault with a dangerous weapon, the charges were dismissed.

One day after the May 1997 search, Floyd was charged with criminally threatening a contracted meter reader from the New Hampshire Electric Coop. Floyd allegedly instructed his son, "Go inside and get the pouch." His son, according to the report, said, "Mom is awake. I could not get the gun."

Investigating troopers claimed Floyd told them he could have given them a "third eye."

"I know you wear vests, so I could have put it right between the eyes," he said, according to the papers. "I was sitting on my Ruger."

The case was twice continued that summer. One time was because the troopers would be attending the funeral of two state troopers killed in Colebrook on Aug. 19, 1997.

Minutes before the trial was to have started in October, the case was dropped. There was a heavy police presence in the court that day.

Also in June 1997, Floyd was charged with, and later indicted for, being a felon in possession of weapons, after a records search in Georgia turned up a 1981 felony conviction for selling marijuana.

Those charges were dismissed after Floyd's attorney, Gerry Boyle, successfully argued that the Georgia conviction would not have constituted a felony in New Hampshire in 1981.

He was also charged with simple assault for attempting to knee a trooper in the groin and was given a suspended one- to three-year sentence in the New Hampshire State Prison, according to an order issued on May 28, 1998. He was placed on probation for three years, with the stipulation that he not possess any firearms.

In motions seeking the return of the firearms in August 1998, court papers noted that the guns belonged to Floyd's wife. She reportedly intended to sell some of them and have the others secured in a locked safe in Manchester.

SSN Vet
May 15, 2007, 11:06 AM
"This is a private, unlisted, unpublished number. Please don't call again."

Frankonia is up on the White Mountains and pretty darn rural....I'm not surprised that folks move up there to "not be bothered"......yet notice the courtasy of saying "please".

I think the "rugged individual" types are more common than elsewhere.

Though Floyd may have had issues with "running at he mouth" .... when it came down to brass tacks, he took a risky stand (with his son in the car) on the right side of the equation. I suspect the area LEOs will hold a different opinion of him in the future.

SkiLune
May 15, 2007, 11:26 AM
Look, Kenny deserved what he got. Clearly.

However, if (IF!!) the cop has been acting how several people have accused, does the PD not bear some responsibility to reign him in. Here is one open case against the murdered officer (from today's Boston Globe):

"In October 2005, a Franconia resident filed a civil complaint accusing McKay of threatening him while McKay was wearing his police uniform and driving his police cruiser. The man, Timothy Stephenson, said McKay rested his hand on his service weapon and said, "I'm going to do whatever I can to get rid of you." The disposition of the case, which was referred to Grafton Superior Court, was unavailable yesterday."

orionengnr
May 15, 2007, 11:36 AM
..then sprayed Kenney with OC spray, an irritant similar to pepper spray...

mmmm, yeah...very similar. :)

Libertylover
May 15, 2007, 11:45 AM
People skills can save your life, no matter what side you're on.

And it sounds as if both of these people had bad reputations. In a small town like Franconia, something bad was just bound to happen. Like I said, people skills can save your life.

ATW525
May 15, 2007, 11:57 AM
And it sounds as if both of these people had bad reputations.

Strangely enough, the man who killed Kenney with McKay's gun had a bad reputation, too. I'm starting to wonder if anybody up there has a good reputation.

MDHunter
May 15, 2007, 12:19 PM
Geez - I always came to THR because I thought The High Road was more than just a bunch of words...on this thread, evidently not.

Sure is a lot of supposition going on, by a bunch of people who weren't there, only know the part of the history that's reported in the papers, and are jumping to conclusions based on partial information.

Two people are dead, without a good reason for dying. A little more reason on both sides, might have resulted in a different outcome. Pointing all of the blame either way, when we have no idea of the full history, is just guesswork.

Nice to see the High Road alive and well.

Michael

Mazeman
May 15, 2007, 02:19 PM
Apparently, the passerby (Floyd) had his own run-ins with the cops (http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070515/REPOSITORY/705150420).

The man who jumped to the aid of a shot police officer in Franconia Friday offered a very different response several years ago to a pair of New Hampshire troopers investigating him on a criminal charge. In 1997, Gregory Floyd, 49, told the troopers how he'd kill them if he wanted them dead.

"I know you wear vests," Floyd told them, according to court records. "So I would have put it right between the eyes.".......

In the past, Floyd has found himself the target of police investigations, according to court records made available yesterday.

Floyd's arrest record goes back to at least 1981, when he was convicted in Georgia of selling marijuana and theft by unauthorized taking, the court records said. Floyd also had a misdemeanor offense of disturbing the peace in Massachusetts, but the date of that offense was not available yesterday. It is unclear from court records when Floyd, his wife Michelle and son Gregory Floyd moved to New Hampshire.

He was in the state by 1997, when he was arrested twice within a month.
In May of that year, the state police charged Floyd with criminal threatening for allegedly showing a clenched fist to a 24-year-old meter reader for New Hampshire Co-op. According to court records, Floyd asked the meter reader, "Do I need to kick your ass?"

The court file did not explain why Floyd was upset with the meter reader. The state police had been to Floyd's house the month before, the court records said, because neighbors had complained that Floyd was shooting guns on his property. Floyd told the police he'd shot at bears to scare them off and said he didn't realize how close other homes were.

Floyd also told the police he had served in the Marines and was an "expert shot," the court records said. When the state police searched Floyd's home, they found six guns but believed they had no reason to confiscate them.

The state police returned to Floyd's home after the meter reader complained that Floyd had threatened him. The police learned that during the meter reader's visit, Floyd had told his son to go inside and "get the pouch." When the son returned, he told his father, "Mom is awake, I could not get the gun," the court records said.

The police charged Floyd with criminal threatening. It was during this incident that Floyd told the police how he'd kill them if he chose to - by shooting them in the head and giving them a "third eye."

Upon further checking, the police learned that Floyd's 1991 drug arrest in Georgia was a felony level offense. That, the state police concluded, meant Floyd could not legally own guns in New Hampshire. In June 1997, the state police added a second charge against Floyd: being a felon in possession of firearms.

During that arrest, Floyd attempted to knee Trooper Scot Bryan in the groin, according to court records, and was charged with attempted assault of a police officer.........

ETC, ETC



They're trying to demonize this guy as much as possible.

SkiLune
May 16, 2007, 11:27 AM
Sure is a lot of supposition going on, by a bunch of people who weren't there, only know the part of the history that's reported in the papers, and are jumping to conclusions based on partial information.

Supposition is all we are left with, MD. The police and state AG will not release the videotape or eyewitness testimony from Kenny's passenger or Floyd's teenaged son. See Concord Monitor editorial below. No, I am not a cop hater, but this whole sorry incident does not neatly fit into the white hat/black hat category.

There are just so many unanswered questions, and I for one do not find it "anti High Road" to want to know the full story of what actually happened.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070516/REPOSITORY/705160311

MDHunter
May 16, 2007, 11:32 AM
Skilune - I think we're saying the same thing. Sounds like you are hoping for more info, I was addressing some of the heated flames on both ends based on newspaper account and lots of missing details.

Michael

SkiLune
May 16, 2007, 11:40 AM
Its cool. I know the area quite well, and ski there frequently. People up there are and around the state are just very upset about this unbelievable tragedy.

Today, on my way to work, I passed three out of town police cruisers headed north. I am sure they were going to Officer McKay's funeral service. It was pretty sad and moving, to me, watching the cruisers headed north....

To me, this is an uncomprehensible tragedy, and I believe it would be a public disservice to not examine the actions of all parties involved, rather than just closing the case as the state seems anxious to do.

SSN Vet
May 17, 2007, 12:20 PM
Friends and family called Kenney a free-spirited outdoorsman who loved all-terrain vehicles and had issues with authority. Court records show he could be volatile even with his own family

Somehow, I thought learning to respect authority figures was part of growing up (like graduating to Kindergarten??) I guess free spirited hippy kids aren't required to do that.

------------------------------------------------------------------

FRANCONIA, N.H. (AP) _ Liko Kenney, described by friends as a free-spirited "Hippie kid," had a history of bad blood with police Cpl. Bruce McKay. So there was the potential for trouble when a traffic stop brought them together again.

Within minutes of the Friday stop, both were dead, dividing this town's 924 residents between those who see McKay as a fallen hero and those who considered him a bully with a badge.

"It's a tragic situation _ two men lost and two families devastated," said Steve Heath, owner of the Franconia Village Store.

Beyond that, there's little agreement about the tragedy in Franconia, where local Olympian Bode Miller _ Kenney's cousin _ is royalty. His image appears on posters, signs and keepsakes all over town.

Authorities say McKay, 48, stopped Kenney, 24, for speeding, and Kenney asked to deal with a different officer and drove away.

By the time McKay caught up about a mile down the road, Kenney was in a frenzy, according to his friend and passenger, Caleb Macauley.

"I've never seen anyone so scared in my life," Macauley told WMUR-TV.

McKay forced him off the road and pepper-sprayed him. Kenney then shot McKay four times and drove over him.

Gregory Floyd, a passing motorist and ex-Marine who saw it all, grabbed McKay's gun and shot Kenney to death when he refused to put his gun down. Authorities quickly ruled the killing justified.

McKay, who had a 9-year-old daughter, was to have been married in July atop Cannon Mountain, where Bode Miller learned to ski. Instead his funeral will be held at the mountain.

As many as 6,000 officers from throughout the country are expected to attend Thursday's funeral, but in this close-knit mountain valley, where the Kenney family's roots run deep, at least one town may hold back.

Plans to send two fire department vehicles from neighboring Easton triggered a heated debate at the selectmen's meeting Monday night. Chairman Paul White, who is married to Kenney's cousin, moved to keep them away in protest.

Liko Kenney grew up on his grandparents' rustic tennis camp in Easton, where the extended family still lives. Liko's parents own a coffee plantation in Hawaii, and he followed their seasonal migrations: the islands in winter, the White Mountains in summer.

"He was kinda just a happy, hippie kid. He'd do anything to help anyone," said Holly Hayward, 48, who said she'd known Kenney his whole life.

Friends and family called Kenney a free-spirited outdoorsman who loved all-terrain vehicles and had issues with authority. Court records show he could be volatile even with his own family. In January 2003, an aunt, Larisa Kenney, sought a restraining order against her nephew, then 19. In a handwritten letter, she told the court Liko had frightened her by chainsawing trees near her cabin, sending one crashing onto her roof as she slept. When she confronted him, she said Liko exploded _ shouting, grabbing her and then following her on his ATV as she ran to safety at a relative's home.

Just weeks later, Liko Kenney had a violent run-in with McKay, who had followed tire tracks into an isolated parking area. Court documents say it took three officers to subdue Kenney, who tried to escape three times, once while cuffed and shackled. One officer said Kenney grabbed McKay in the groin and that McKay reacted by punching Kenney in the face. Kenney's family and many in town say McKay broke Kenney's jaw that night, but Grafton County Attorney Rick St. Hilaire said Kenney's jaw was not broken.

Kenney could have gone to prison after pleading guilty to resisting arrest and assaulting McKay. But he got 15 days in jail, time served, when McKay asked for leniency, according to St. Hilaire.

Bill Kenney, 56, said the run-in changed Liko, and that his nephew started carrying a weapon because he feared McKay. Other residents say they found him intimidating as well.

"McKay had an attitude, he was rough on people," said florist Jean McLean, 53, who remembers once asking McKay to leave after he tried to shoo away teenagers playing Hacky Sack in front of her store. She called the killings "vigilante justice."

McKay was one of three full-time officers in the department and prosecuted some of its smaller cases. One man, Timothy Stephenson, sued McKay in 2005, alleging that he used his prosecutor's role to settle scores.

The men settled the case last year, with neither admitting blame.

Bode Miller also chafed against McKay, telling Sports Illustrated that he contested a 2005 speeding ticket in part to antagonize the officer.

Police Chief Mark Montminy called McKay a dedicated officer who served the town and department well.

"We don't harass people. He did his job, he did it well, everybody was treated the same. He was very knowledgeable and very professional, a dedicated police officer," Montminy said.

Pastor Gary Hart of Franconia Community Church of Christ said McKay's image as a law-and-order man in an old hippie town may have distanced him from others.

"Most of the time people saw him he was in his patrol vehicle, he was in uniform, he was stopping people on the road for speeding. And once you get a reputation, it's almost impossible to change it," said Hart, who does some police chaplain work.

Hart said he was impressed when McKay responded to a complaint he once made about a noisy wedding reception.

"So when people tell me he was so difficult, that hadn't been my experience," Hart said.

LawDog
May 18, 2007, 11:31 AM
Multiple threads merged.

LawDog

Essex County
May 18, 2007, 12:36 PM
McKay's funeral was yesterday. My wife, a State of N.H. social worker had to make a trip to Concord. On the trip down she counted 101 police vehicles and on the trip back 126. These included out of state cars and motorcycles. Those of us that have never been LEO's should stop and reflect a moment. The sense of brotherhood is beyond comprehension. Essex

SkiLune
May 18, 2007, 01:59 PM
.... but I'll bet that there is much more to this story that we'll never know about.

Sadly, I think you're right: no one will ever know, and questions/rumors will linger forever. AG Ayotte seems to be eager to just shut this whole thing down and move on. Her actions contrast with what happened when Manchester PD Officer Briggs was murdered by a repeat, violent felon earlier this year. In Briggs' case, we heard about what the thug (Stix, I believe his name is) did, and I hope that the punk gets the needle.

I hope I'm wrong, but if people are left with only rumors and innuendoes against Officer McKay and Kenny (and the AG's statement), some people will become distrustful of the entire law enforcement community. And, that would be a damned shame. Imagine how difficult it is being a Franconia cop right now, dealing with the grieving AND a small town that is reportedly "divided" over McKay's murder.

Matt G
May 21, 2007, 02:21 AM
The town in question is a very small one, not some bustling metropolis infamous for high-speed chases, etc. Speeding isn't a felony nor a misdemeanor (in any state I've lived in thus far, merely a "civil" infraction). The whole incident could have been avoided at one of several points: Kenney not speeding, McKay not pursuing Kenney for a civil infraction, Kenney not leaving the scene (instead of simply waiting there and refusing to talk/roll down the window, etc.), McKay not chasing after Kenney (small town, known agent, remember?), McKay not hosing down Kenney with pepper spray, Kenney not blowing his top and using lethal force...
Speeding's criminal. But were it not, refusing to stop, and running from a lawful stop is criminal. Evading in a vehicle is a felony in many jurisdictions (like Texas).

Given the potential danger of a person evading in a vehicle from a law enforcement officer, combined with the fact that the violator has already been convicted of assaulting that officer, should the officer wait to be attacked by the violator again? What about the duty to the community? Arresting the boy was the way to go. He used an intermediate weapon to attempt to disable a non-cooperative violent felon, in a lawful arrest. He was shot for his trouble.

Saying that there was bad blood, simply on the basis of the fact that the officer had been a victim of the man's attack previously and had again pulled the man over again, is far too simplistic. Understand-- in a small town, the local cop deals with the same guys, over and over again. If you've got a particularly messy kid, you're going to have to deal with his messes again and again. Friends, I've been there. I could name you three guys that I've had situations with in the past, that I'll have situations with again. It's not that I'm "gunning for them," it's just that they're prone to it. To say that they're not is to ignore their histories. I would LOVE to see these guys rehabilitated. But they'll be out, and committing crimes, and meeting me and my handcuffs, before this year is through. And someone will probably claim that, because I dealt with them last time, that I've got "bad blood" with them. Nope. I just happen to know their names, and their histories. That doesn't change the objective facts of whatever harebrained act they commit next time.

In a small town, we regularly have just one guy on duty. Getting "another officer" isn't an option without calling one in from another agency. That's not the officer's job or duty. The violator, if he doesn't like the way things are being handled, can surely lodge his protests with the chief, the City, and the state and federal courts. Creating a scene at the side of the road will always put the guy who was stopped in the wrong. Why do that, when you can very possibly win in court or in the court of public opinion, later?

Every drop of blood spilled in this case was at the hands of Liko Kenney.

But at least we can all agree on this: Thank God for Gregory Floyd and his son.

SSN Vet
May 21, 2007, 09:28 AM
...let's pull some specifics out of the mire....

Kenney's own aunt had taken a restraining order out against him because of his violent, threatening behavior against her, made on her own property.

Kenney's own uncle said he was glad that Floyd shot his nephew, because he likely saved the lives of others.

Kenney's famous cousin is quoted as saying that he fought an 84 in a 40 speeding ticket in court for the sole purpose of irritating Officer McKay.

Kenney would have been in jail, if Officer McKay had not told the judge to go light on him?

Because there's no one alive to charge with McKay's murder, the forensic evidence isn't coming out, but everything is pointing to Kenney shot McKay four times in the back while he was walking away from Kenney's car, and then proceeded to run him over (potentially more than once).

one-shot-one
May 21, 2007, 12:46 PM
"Two people are dead, without a good reason for dying. A little more reason on both sides, might have resulted in a different outcome. Pointing all of the blame either way, when we have no idea of the full history, is just guesswork.

Nice to see the High Road alive and well.

Michael"

one dead without a good reason, the other, depending on the capitol punishment laws of the state was probably gonna be dead sooner or later anyway.

SkiLune
May 25, 2007, 11:10 AM
This thing is not going to go away quietly. People are wanting the entire story to come out, not the abbreviated "investigation" that has already concluded.

I have no way of knowing how accurate the following second hand accounting of the story is, but this is what is out there.

http://bostonnow.com/community/blogs/kingcast/2007/05/24/liko-kenneys-passenger-caleb-maccauly-speaks-about-the-franconia-notch-shooting-tragedy/

jerkface11
May 25, 2007, 11:47 AM
So Kenney ran from the cops when stopped for speeding. Then shot the cop 4 times and ran him over. Then sat there beside the road until a "passerby" who had previously threatened to kill police came by and shot HIM with the COPS gun. Am I the only one who thinks Floyd may have been more than a passerby?

SkiLune
May 25, 2007, 12:17 PM
The investigation has concluded, and Floyd and McKay have been pronounced heroes. Kenney has been pronounced an unstable psycopath.

Case closed in 48 hours.

FourTeeFive
May 25, 2007, 12:31 PM
Someone made that comment about Floyd. That guy's got quite a rap sheet; I wouldn't exactly call it "demonizing" to bring it out in the open.

It all does sound strange. They happened upon the scene and then were able to get the officer's weapon and shoot a guy who was already holding a weapon?

Also, while Kenney was indeed the bad guy (one of the bad guys?) in this case, did he have a good reason to fear for his life? Again, he chose his fate and that of the officer by shooting. But I do believe he had reason to fear for his life, right or wrong.

jerkface11
May 25, 2007, 01:15 PM
Obviously more happened here than they are letting on. Too bad we'll never know.

gezzer
May 25, 2007, 09:13 PM
What’s happening here is to many Monday Morning Quarterbacks :cuss::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

SkiLune
May 30, 2007, 12:26 PM
What’s happening here is to many Monday Morning Quarterbacks

Huh? Like these folks, including the Franconia Police Chief?

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NH_HEALING_FRANCONIA_NHOL-?SITE=NHCON&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

SkiLune
May 31, 2007, 03:44 PM
The state is going to release the videotape from McKay's cruiser. Public pressure became too much. I hope this ends all the rumour and innuendo about Kenney, McKay, and Floyd once and for all.

I really, really hope that everthing went down the way the State AG described it.

Polishrifleman
June 26, 2007, 02:55 PM
I am still a little confused. Not only can you take a quote out of context but this video with the initial reaction of the officer to open up with pepper spray, you would think they would give you the entire stop.

I don't know how the camera's work and haven't seen a rear video shot before so maybe they are activated differently.

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/us/2007/06/26/ergas.nh.cops.last.stop.whdh

Nautilus
June 26, 2007, 03:02 PM
I watched the Video as well... while it is odd that the officer walked up and pepper sprayed him... then turned his back and waled away. If you watch the video on youtube from the 2003 arrest of Liko Kenney by the same officer I can understand why the officer would want to use pepper spray.

FourTeeFive
June 26, 2007, 03:08 PM
I don't get why the officer is pushing the car with his car.

I certainly don't get the nonchalant blast of pepper spray and then walking away with your back turned. Is this standard operating procedure or a "guess I just showed them" attitude?

Evil Monkey
June 26, 2007, 03:42 PM
5 pages and nobody posts videos.......well here you go.

Traffic stop part 1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jDiw_i9LxfI

Traffic stop part 2
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cxdUErxidIM

Traffic stop part 3
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8D0jaJRcx-M

Different day and the shooting.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NF-BtESLEsU

USMC6177
June 26, 2007, 05:02 PM
Seriously that cop as far as I can tell was way more patient then I would ever be.

bill2
June 26, 2007, 07:28 PM
This Liko guy sounded like a complete moron. he was wrong in what he did. and I thought that the officer was really patient with him

phaed
June 26, 2007, 07:49 PM
crazy. simply crazy. i'm glad the passerby handled the situation or the BG might have gone on to do more harm.

/salute Officer McKay, rest in peace

p.s. it pisses me off that they have to include ties to celebrity. the guy being related to a famous skier is completely irrelevant, and takes away from the fact that we lost a man serving his community.

Rustynuts
June 26, 2007, 08:37 PM
The video of the shooting is up on the news sites. He kind of sprayed in the general direction it seemed, may not have even connected. Then turns right around without checking! BIG MISTAKE. I'm sure this video will be seen in many training classes as what not to do.

Possibly his previous encounters made him feel more at ease with the perp? Thinking he wouldn't do anything really bad?

Deavis
June 26, 2007, 10:00 PM
Arresting the boy was the way to go. He used an intermediate weapon to attempt to disable a non-cooperative violent felon, in a lawful arrest.

Yeah, I don't know about all that. I agree he needed to be arrested but it looks a little bit more like the officer was pissed off and decided to use pepper spray out of spite. If he was actually pursuing an arrest, I think he would have taken a different tact than hop out, spray, and turn away. His body language, to me, is 100% disgust and while the time is short I don't believe he had any intention of dealing with the kid impartially.

I mean, I can't even see the point of his use of OC, he doesn't even appear to be trying to affect an arrest. I've been pulled over before and put into "protective custody" and it didn't go down like that at all even though the officer initially felt I and the other rider were running from him, which is a felony and thus the bracelets. Plenty of verbal commands and at no point was there a disengagement like in that video. The officer is either sloppy or he used the OC as retribution IMHO. Either way, he didn't deserve to get shot for his actions, they have courts for a reason and getting sprayed with OC isn't worth losing your life over.

JWarren
June 26, 2007, 11:12 PM
From the footage, it does seem like an odd traffic stop. The events on the tape seem odd as well. I wasnt' there during the stop, so I cannot say what occured for what reasons.

As I am oft to do, I am more than willing to say that the McKay could have made some mistakes. Based on the evidence of bad blood brought to light, I am willing to entertain the possiblity that McKay could have-- in the past or present-- been a complete jerk to the BG and/or others. That could be the result of a number of things-- among them: 1.) He's had to deal with this guy numerous times and put up with his crap resulting in aggravation on his part and ill will on the others part or 2.) He could have been a cop that enjoyed throwing his badge around with a power trip.

And everything I said above is pure specualtion. The fact is it may be BS and it may contain elements of truth.

The fact is that it is irrelevant. I am thinking of a circumstance where the BG would have been justified in either 1.) shooting the officer or 2.) running over the officer. I'm sure I could come up with something-- but none of those somethings showed up on the tape. If there was a reason in the past, it was obviously not something legitimate or legal action would have been pursued.

Therefore, I'm drawing a blank. NOTHING was present that would justify the actions of the BD. No amount of hypothetical scenerios will convince me.

Sadly, I DON'T think the BG got what he deserved. I'd have liked him to stand trial for the crime and allow a jury of his peers to convict him and sentence him to death. That way, it would be officially in the records that he was a murderer and a cop killer. Now, it will always be "Alleged." You have to love technicalities.

My condolences to the officers family and may he rest in peace.


Regarding Floyd, so he had a colored past. He may have done or said some crappy things in the past. I won't go so far as to say he is a good guy. He may not be.

However, THAT day he did a good thing.

Unless we are bringing charges against him unrelated to this incident, I can only view his actions of this day and say that TODAY he did good.

Other than that, I'll let God weigh the merit of this man's soul.
If he were to break the law in the future or be tried for previous crimes, a court will decide his earthly punishment.


Even our discussion of Floyd's good or bad nature becomes speculation. What happened, happened. It was a tragic and senseless waste of life all around.


-- John

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