Some holsters now AOW's?


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kd7nqb
May 13, 2007, 01:50 AM
A buddy of mine at work recently purchased a Kel-Tec P3at and after he and I spent time at the range with it, I realize that I want one as well. Mostly due to size and the fact that it would fit into more attire options.

While doing some online research on pocket holsters I found this, wonder if anybody has any more insight on this topic.

"The ATF's ruling a few years ago entails two parts. If the holster gives the overall appearance of looking like a wallet, AND the gun can be operated, i.e., pull the trigger, while it is still seated in the holster, then you have to register the wallet holster. There is a fee (approx $200+) to register it, and you also have to inform ATF if you transfer ownership to another person."

I would hate to think that the ATF is now legislating the size and shape of the leather I put my gun in.

I found another link saying that they were AOW'S thus its a five dollar fee instead of 200

Please clarify.

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Nomad, 2nd
May 13, 2007, 01:56 AM
IF you can shoot it in the holster.

If you gatta pull it out to shoot it you are OK.

Librarian
May 13, 2007, 02:10 AM
Do you suppose they mean something like this (http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/POCKETGUN.jpg)?
Picture of the Week
The oddball contraption below is a Pachmyr pocket holster attached to a Smith &Wesson Model 60. The holster was designed to keep the gun from printing in a pocket, to shroud the hammer, and to carry extra ammo. Unlike a normal holster, this one attached to the gun by replacing the right grip panel. They're no longer made, but they're an interesting item for S&W collectors.

Jorg Nysgerrig
May 13, 2007, 02:12 AM
Nomad has it.

This letter from the ATF may help a bit:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter19.txt

And this link:
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIII1.html

It's the "a concealable gun that doesn't look like a gun is an AOW" thing.

kd7nqb
May 13, 2007, 02:50 AM
It seems like its ok for it to be squarish and look like a wallet when its in your back pocket as long as you need it to be removed to fire.

I did not realize that the ATF had gone this far.

mdao
May 13, 2007, 03:16 AM
Do you suppose they mean something like this?

Picture of the Week
The oddball contraption below is a Pachmyr pocket holster attached to a Smith &Wesson Model 60. The holster was designed to keep the gun from printing in a pocket, to shroud the hammer, and to carry extra ammo. Unlike a normal holster, this one attached to the gun by replacing the right grip panel. They're no longer made, but they're an interesting item for S&W collectors.

Nope, this isn't an AOW. The gun + wallet combination is clearly a gun after being removed from the pocket.

If the holster + gun still looks like a wallet (or anything else that's decidedly non-gun) and can be shot without removing the gun from the holster, it's an AOW. If it's still identifiable as a gun then it's not an AOW.

This is about as close as you can get to a AOW wallet holster and not be an AOW. (http://www.artofthehide.com/)

CajunBass
May 13, 2007, 04:16 AM
I was also told that the Freedom Arms belt buckle "holster" qualifies as an AOW. Don't know if it's true or not. The gun or the holster seperate no. The two together. Yes.

I wasn't interested in either really, so I never checked into it further.

AlaskaErik
May 13, 2007, 01:46 PM
I did not realize that the ATF had gone this far.

Incrementalism is the gun grabbers most effective tool.

TrybalRage
May 13, 2007, 02:25 PM
Wait...

So if I put my glock inside a small bag, and put a hole in the bag so I can grab the trigger, my ultra-tactical deadly bag of death now needs a $200 tax & registration?

hotpig
May 13, 2007, 03:15 PM
I was going to buy one back about ten years ago. Since it was a AOW I could not buy it in Illinois.

zoom6zoom
May 13, 2007, 04:36 PM
So if I put my glock inside a small bag, and put a hole in the bag so I can grab the trigger, my ultra-tactical deadly bag of death now needs a $200 tax & registration?

Ya gotta remember that this is the same bunch that declared a shoelace = machine gun!

Husker1911
May 13, 2007, 05:25 PM
I've a wallet holster I purchased years ago directly from North American Arms, which encases the model NAA22LR. Give me a day, I'll photograph it and post it. Is anyone else familiar with these holsters?

wdlsguy
May 13, 2007, 05:43 PM
^^^
Why has the wallet holster been discontinued?

The wallet, in and of itself, is a benign piece of folded leather. The minirevolver is a time-tested, high-quality small firearm but, when you join one with the other, watch out! _ you've just created what ATF defines as 'any other weapon', a rather nefarious classification which includes pen guns, cane guns and other disguised weaponry. While legal to own, AOWs require registration and payment of special taxes similar to those for fully-automatic weapons. Possession of an AOW without meeting these requirements subjects the holder to a felony charge (which further exposes us to the liability of a lawsuit).

The distinction between the WH and the folding holster grip or the belt buckle, as it has been explained to us, is that the WH weapon is operable from its disguised state (no need to remove it from the wallet in order to fire it). Both the HG and BB require that the gun be additionally manipulated (opened, removed) before it is functional, and so suffer no 'special' classification. The WH was a very popular accessory and it's a great disappointment that we're unable to offer it for sale.

http://www.naaminis.com/faqgeneral.html

HiroProX
May 13, 2007, 05:43 PM
Incrementalism is the gun grabbers most effective tool.

And it's our fault for letting them get away with it.

SniperStraz
May 13, 2007, 05:49 PM
I've seen one of those before. They're pretty neat. It looks like a wallet. Fits a little .25 inside and when you pull it out and lay it flat on your hand it still looks like a wallet. On the other side there is a hole that allows for the trigger to be pulled. Great for anti-mugger jobs. I can't believe that the ATF is now regulating our holsters.

Husker1911
May 13, 2007, 05:52 PM
Thanks for the information, gentlemen. I'll be ordering a Holdster for my P32 very soon!

Zen21Tao
May 13, 2007, 10:48 PM
In line with putting a gun unholstered in a bad that has an opening, what about simply putting an ultra compact pistol unholstered in your pants pocket? Since you can reach into your pants and pull the trigger, is your pants pocket now an AOW also?

rms/pa
May 13, 2007, 11:00 PM
lint and dust in the action, plus hooking your keys in the triggergaurd can be painfull and noisy.

rms/pa

The Lone Haranguer
May 14, 2007, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by SniperStraz:
I've seen one of those before. They're pretty neat. It looks like a wallet. Fits a little .25 inside and when you pull it out and lay it flat on your hand it still looks like a wallet. On the other side there is a hole that allows for the trigger to be pulled.
Galco used to make one. I think it fit the Seecamp and the Beretta Jetfire. I remember the disclaimer stating that it was not intended for live fire practice - as it would be damaged or destroyed - and that the gun would likely not cycle after the first shot.

SniperStraz
May 14, 2007, 11:22 AM
I remember the disclaimer stating that it was not intended for live fire practice - as it would be damaged or destroyed - and that the gun would likely not cycle after the first shot.
That makes sense. Thanx for the info.

ball3006
May 14, 2007, 12:24 PM
shooting through your jacket pocket is now out.........chris3

Eightball
May 14, 2007, 12:31 PM
In line with putting a gun unholstered in a bad that has an opening, what about simply putting an ultra compact pistol unholstered in your pants pocket? Since you can reach into your pants and pull the trigger, is your pants pocket now an AOW also?Probably. If that makes your pants deadly weapons, imagine the pickup lines you could use :rolleyes:

The Lone Haranguer
May 14, 2007, 12:34 PM
Is the wallet holster with no gun in it still an AOW?

wdlsguy
May 14, 2007, 12:39 PM
Is the wallet holster with no gun in it still an AOW?
I don't think so, but I wouldn't want to be in possession of a wallet holster and a gun that fits it without an approved Form 1 or Form 4 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/5000.htm#firearms).

Jorg Nysgerrig
May 14, 2007, 12:39 PM
Is the wallet holster with no gun in it still an AOW?
Nope.

uriel
May 14, 2007, 12:45 PM
OK, I'm sure it's me. But I didn't see a sticky/thread/whatever that defines acronyms, and I don't know what an AOW is or where the term came from...would someone please lessen my ignorance? Thank you.

SDC
May 14, 2007, 12:51 PM
"AOW" stands for "Any Other Weapon", and it's one of the classes that a National Firearms Act-"regulated" firearm can fall into; back before 1934, there were a whole bunch of assorted firearms (knife guns, cane guns, flashlight guns, you name it)that weren't immediately recognizable as firearms, so the WIC (weasels in charge) decided to create a category that applied to them. Most people that had these things decided to ditch them, rather than pay the tax and register them, but there are still some around from back then, and ATF has also done its best to extend those categories whenever possible.

Jorg Nysgerrig
May 14, 2007, 12:52 PM
Click on "THR Library" in the upper corner, then "Common Acronyms/Terms (local) (http://thehighroad.org/library/acro/acron.html)".

There you will find that AOW means Any Other Weapon, which is a legal term for things that aren't regular shotguns, rifles, pistols, short-barreled shotguns/rifles, destructive devices, etc.

uriel
May 14, 2007, 05:28 PM
Thank you gentlemen. I appreciate the info.

MudPuppy
May 14, 2007, 07:12 PM
There seems to be a misconception about the fee of an AOW--it is a $200 for the initial tax, then $5 to transfer (in contrast to a SBR, that is $200 for the initial tax, then $200 to transfer).

Someone correct me if I've got that wrong.

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