Interesting concept in bodyarmor...


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thexrayboy
May 13, 2007, 06:42 PM
Saw this recently. Found it to be an interesting idea that may be a
major change in the body armor industry in the future.

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_Liquid,,00.html

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Kali Endgame
May 13, 2007, 09:30 PM
Yep, pretty cool stuff. I saw a video a few months back and they showed a test. Looks promising. IIRC, they fired a 9mm(?) into it, iand it stopped the projectile then returned to its maleable form.

Phaetos
May 13, 2007, 10:18 PM
Now this is interesting stuff (http://youtube.com/watch?v=abd9bpvd6zY&mode=related&search=)

Took 63 hits before it even started to show penetration on the backside of the polymer.

armoredman
May 13, 2007, 10:54 PM
But will any be available to civilians?

tmajors
May 14, 2007, 12:04 AM
But will any be available to civilians?

everything is available to civilians. question is can a civilian afford it ;)

Cesiumsponge
May 14, 2007, 12:08 AM
Shear thickening fluids have been around for a while in one form or another, its just never found much practical use until lately where it'd be great for body armor in sports and protection in the military and law enforcement. There are lots of inventions out there that float around in the abyss a while until someone finds a practical purpose (the laser comes to mind). They already have consumer products using the stuff. I came across high end ski pants that used some form of shear thickening fluid pads so clipping one of those flag poles wouldn't bust your shin. It was through one of those scientific publication's online articles.

AR-15 Rep
May 14, 2007, 12:11 AM
The next question is, if civilians get it so will the BG's and what will it take for our PD's to be able to stop it then?

Fulcrum of Evil
May 14, 2007, 12:12 AM
Of course it'll be available to civvies - I can't wait until all the courier services are using this stuff - feels like gritty sandpaper, protects like a stack of phonebooks.

> what will it take for our PD's to be able to stop it then?

Marksmanship

AR-15 Rep
May 14, 2007, 12:23 AM
True, but trying to hit a bouncing head shot running is going to take alot more practice for most officers. Maybe we should just keep it off the streets and give our officers other things to worry about.

theken206
May 14, 2007, 12:47 AM
"Maybe we should just keep it off the streets and give our officers other things to worry about."


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

PercyShelley
May 14, 2007, 01:12 AM
It seems like the materials science behind body armor is getting a lot better very quickly.

230RN
May 14, 2007, 01:56 AM
.

The Unknown User
May 14, 2007, 02:10 AM
That idea make me think of this: http://youtube.com/results?search_query=dragon+skin&search=Search

Fulcrum of Evil
May 14, 2007, 03:38 AM
> trying to hit a bouncing head shot running is going to take alot more practice for most officers.

This reminds me of the shootout some Detroit cops had with an unarmed man in front of a white bronco - they only hit the bronco half the time and utterly missed the guys they were aiming at. I'd say most cops could stand to practice more.

Now then, if you have some idiot shooting at you while wearing expensive body armor, what's to stop you from knocking him around with a .45? Honestly, it doesn't sound like the sort of thing cops have to worry about. Most criminals don't wear body armor in the first place.

Nightcrawler
May 14, 2007, 03:51 AM
My question is this: what are armies going to do in the next thirty years when everyone starts equipping themselves with such armor vests?

Right now, a set of dragon skin (the current state-of-the-art) runs about five grand a pop; far too costly for any army to feasibly equip each grunt with.

But as technology advances, these materials will become cheaper and cheaper.

Military planners could face a situation in the near future where multiple hits to center-of-mass aren't likely to bring an enemy soldier down.

So...after many years, the next infantry arms race will be on, I think. I wonder what the solution will be? Exploding ammunition? Ouch. Energy weapons require too many breakthroughs (exponentially better power sources, room temperature superconductors, things like that) to be a solution. (In any case lasers will penetrate less than projectiles.)

I wonder if the next generation of small arms, after decades of going smaller and smaller bore, will be large-bore weapons, with reduced magazine capacities, firing what amounts to miniature grenades with shaped-charge warheads? Holy crap, the ammo costs would be outrageous!

(Not to mention the safety concerns of handling such ammo. :eek: )

I wouldn't worry about this stuff ending up "on the street" anymore than I worry about criminals wearing Interceptor vests today. Your average crack dealer isn't going to spend the time and thousands of dollars necessary to scrounge such an item from the black market, especially since such things will still be bulky and conspicuous for the foreseeable future.

armoredman
May 14, 2007, 11:27 PM
Plasma rifle, in the 40 megawatt range.

thexrayboy
May 14, 2007, 11:36 PM
The next generation of ammo is likely to be the "blended metal" rounds.

Show n tell videos show these rounds as being capable of penetrating virtually all ballistic vests without plate and some with. They retain their integrity when they strike a hard, resistive object and act like AP ammo. Upon striking warm resilient tissue they become frangible and produce devastating wounds. After that? who knows. It will be quite some time before we have directed energy weapons that are man portable unless some
hotshot comes up with a huge increase in the efficency of energy storage.
The batteries needed to make a laser etc weapon that can actually do significant damage is far too heavy to be man portable.

Titan6
May 15, 2007, 12:06 AM
Ar15rep- Totally agree. And we should ban AR15s for the same reason... oh wait.... never mind

3rdpig
May 15, 2007, 01:09 AM
Maybe we should just keep it off the streets and give our officers other things to worry about.

And just how do you propose to do that? Pass a law making it illegal to own? Pass another law making it illegal to sell to non LEO or non military? All that will do is keep it out of the hands of the law abiding, people that "our officers" don't have to worry about in the first place. Or do you believe that passing a law making it illegal will make criminals, by definition people who do NOT obey laws, not illegally obtain and use it?

Interested in hearing your plan to keep something criminals would want and would steal or buy from the black market, "off the streets".

Cesiumsponge
May 15, 2007, 01:27 AM
I already mentioned that the technology is already being incorporated into "armor" type clothes used in extreme sports.

http://www.gizmag.com/go/3973/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186325,00.html

We need to get skiers and snowboarders off the streets!

rdouget
May 16, 2007, 07:45 PM
"Plasma rifle, in the 40 megawatt range."


Just what you see here, Pal
:-)

pacodelahoya
May 16, 2007, 07:57 PM
Bah, this technology has been around since I was a kid... ever try to punch Stretch Armstrong?:D

Nightcrawler
May 16, 2007, 07:58 PM
The next generation of ammo is likely to be the "blended metal" rounds.

The only thing I've heard of in that area is the LeMat ammunition, which they claimed was "armor piercing, limited penetration".

As far as I know, they're nothing but a bunch of charlatans. Claiming that a bullet will be solid and hard when striking armor, but will fragment when striking soft tissue, because the tissue is warm, is absurd. The bullet itself leaves the barrel much hotter than the piddly 98.6*F of the average human body. LeMas ammo was nothing more than low-mass, high velocity, pre-fragmented ammunition. It has poor sectional density/ballistic coefficients on top of it.

Even if it did work, though, current gen AP ammo may not cut it for much longer. There are already vests that will absorb multiple direct hits of .30-06AP; they will only become more common as the advance of technology brings the costs of such materials down.

I think on the battlefield of the future, something more is going to be needed, and out of that necessity, niceties like the Hague Accords are going to go out the window...

(Which is not necessarily a good thing, but I think that's just the way it'll be.)

p35
May 16, 2007, 08:02 PM
My kids make this stuff by mixing cornstarch and water. Looks and acts like a liquid in the bowl, but you can't stick your finger into it. Interesting stuff.

thegriz
May 17, 2007, 05:51 AM
Did anybody read the Reality Check at the bottom of the article?

The best body armor is cover and good sense. (I like that quote - it's copyrighted by thegriz):neener:

I'm still waiting for the energy field shields like they had in the movie/book Dune. Crud, they already developed counter measures to this in the movie!:neener:

For every measure there will be an equal or greater counter-measure. (I like that quote too - it's copyrighted by thegriz):neener:

:neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: :neener:

Reality Check

The idea of flexible body armor with hard armor ballistic characteristics is truly a revolutionary leap in the evolution of battlefield armor. Liquid Armor could potentially eliminate the need for rigid ballistic inserts, which not only break up larger, high-velocity projectiles such as rifle bullets, but also protect the wearer from the blunt trauma injuries associated with soft armor kinetic energy transfer. In short, tactical body armor would be lighter and more flexible, which in turn reduces fatigue. In addition, liquid armor's use in EOD (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) suits, especially in the arms and legs, would dramatically increase the flexibility of bomb technicians and allow them to better perform their duties.

The question to be asked here is, "Is constructing combat uniforms out of Liquid Armor technology going too far?" There's no denying the LA cloth will have significantly better ballistic characteristics than current uniform cloth (any protection is better than no protection at all) - but will this protection be worth the cost in terms of soldier fatigue? Since Liquid Armor is made up of a number of fluid-impregnated layers, this cloth will also be significantly heavier than standard uniform cloth, which may tire a soldier more quickly, and possibly pose life-threatening hazards (drowning for example). In addition, the LA cloth may not breathe as well as current fabrics, which will not only trap heat and moisture under the uniform, but also reduce the effectiveness of evaporative cooling. Liquid Armor technology represents a potentially significant breakthrough in tactical battlefield armor, but just as the earliest bullet proof vests had their limitations, we must also recognize the limitations of Liquid Armor and only employ it where its benefits outweigh its limitations.

-- Eric Daniel, Military.com

Bezoar
May 17, 2007, 09:41 PM
2 questions:

was it ever tested against the 308 fmj or ap round?

does it require a minimum projectile velocity to operate correctly?

I remember an article on a textile body armor that would get as hard as steel when hit with a bullet, only thing was the projectile had to have a minimum velocity, and for some reason shrapnel and knives went right through it on the first try.

ilbob
May 17, 2007, 09:52 PM
Right now, a set of dragon skin (the current state-of-the-art) runs about five grand a pop; far too costly for any army to feasibly equip each grunt with.

I don't think that is true at all. Even if you had a million man army you wanted to protect that is only $5 billion. I read once it costs over $100,000 to put a soldier thru basic and advanced training. Whats another $5000?

Nightcrawler
May 18, 2007, 12:15 AM
It's not just the per-unit cost. There's maintenance, replacments, things like that. Armor wears out with age as the materials break down (this is true, I believe, of both ceramics and kevlar).

Now do *I* think they should field it anyway? Hell yes, a much better expense than everyone getting new uniforms and new hats every few years. But the bean-counters that run most military bureacracies don't think that way.

Look, up until recently when people started raising a stink about it, the military was too cheap to issue the modern interceptor vests to everyone. Second-line units (which found themselves on the first line in Iraq) were hard-up for awhile. I got out of the Nat'l Guard in 2004 and I'd never seen an Interceptor.

And even if they did re-equip, the dragon skin armor isn't a be-all end-all. If every US soldier had it, every weapons producer in the world would be busy finding ways to defeat it, and we'd end up right back where we are.

Mostly, though, I think it's a cost issue. Since most injuries and fatalities, even today, are caused by explosives and fragmentation, I think you'd have a hard time convincing a military establishment to throw down the cash for expensive new vests that provide somewhat better small-arms protection, but only (arguably) marginally better fragmentation protection.

I'm sure your average grunt on the ground would feel very differently on the subject, though. :uhoh:

White Horseradish
May 18, 2007, 01:18 AM
everything is available to civilians. question is can a civilian afford it Um, no. Try and buy Dragonskin - you'll be SOL. Pinnacle, as a condition of their government contracts, does not sell to civilians.

renegade1alpha
May 19, 2007, 09:34 PM
I hope they come up with some good stuff that is not as heavy as the stuff I wore in Iraq! With my body armor and all my equipment and weapon I was carrying somewhere around 50-55 pounds. That may not sound like alot but wear that while running around in temperatures of 130+ and it sucks! The military in attempt to protect the troops sacrifice mobility which is just as bad, if not worse sometimes, than not wearing armor at all. As a result alot of troops coming home suffer from lower back and neck problems (like yours truly) which costs the goverment and the servicemen lots of time and money to remedy.

Hopefully one day they can come up with somthing you can wear like a t-shirt that does it all!

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