Jan 2007 ATF Newsletter...EMAIL FFL OK to do now


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CDignition
May 13, 2007, 08:46 PM
They have decided that Scanned and Emailed FFL's are ok now too, along with the faxing... this should be much more convenient for folks..

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foob
May 13, 2007, 08:52 PM
I don't understand the ATF.

With a FFL number given, seller can check ATF website, confirm valid FFL, and ship to address shown on website. Why the need for a copy?

SoCalShooter
May 13, 2007, 08:55 PM
Yup just found out myself this morning. its about time the ATF came into the 21st century.

Bruce333
May 13, 2007, 09:51 PM
Why the need for a copy?It's the Fed Gov, nothing is official without a piece of paper.:neener:

FYI: FFL eZ Check doesn't work for an 03 or 06 FFL.

Here's another oddity from the newsletter. It's OK to use a stamp or auto-pen for the signature "If the person whose signature appears intends it as an original signature.". So a copy of an already signed license isn't Ok, but a signature stamp on the copy is? :banghead: :banghead:

Phaetos
May 13, 2007, 10:10 PM
Well, that's great, but how do you email an original signature?

AR-15 Rep
May 13, 2007, 11:51 PM
I caution everyone on this one, computer hackers do crazy things with e-mail etc. and with coputer programs out there right now you could copy all kinds of things and paste them to almost any form. I am sure there is a way to get around this and someone will figure it out. This could open a new type of cybercrime division within ATF. Even though it may look like it came from a legitimate FFL holder, and all the numbers match, who knows if it originated from the FFL holder. One lost wallet, a quick check of the FFL, an address change with the carrier, and who knows how many firearms get diverted to BG's. And the FFL holder wouldn't even know it. I don't know if that could happen but the scenario came to mind that quick.

PPGMD
May 14, 2007, 01:17 AM
At least with UPS and Fedex only the shipper can change the delivery address. Also Fedex and UPS will only deliver firearms to the address listed on the FFL.

Dr. Dickie
May 14, 2007, 07:33 AM
Yeah, but with a scanned copy of an FFL, how tough is it to change the addy?

I do not know, but considering some to the photos I have seen.

Mannix
May 14, 2007, 08:38 AM
It is no less secure than faxing, anyone with computer could scan anything into their computer, edit it, print it out, and fax it. Same effect as if I scanned it in, edited it, then emailed it. I'd actually trust the email more, seeing as faxes are crappier resolution, making it harder to spot fakes.

Kharn
May 14, 2007, 10:03 AM
I transcribed the important parts of the Newsletter in a thread in L&P (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=277189), maybe they should be merged?

Phaetos:
Well, that's great, but how do you email an original signature?The ATF has said any signature is original as long as the FFL intended for it to be original, the newsletter lists signed in ink, auto-penned, or stamped as acceptable means of producing an original signature on the license.

Kharn

PPGMD
May 14, 2007, 10:13 AM
Yeah, but with a scanned copy of an FFL, how tough is it to change the addy?

Verify by using the FFL checker, or calling the ATF. It's just as easy to print out a forged copy, just ask my parents with my report cards. :neener:

Benelli_Bbl
May 14, 2007, 10:20 AM
Yeah, but with a scanned copy of an FFL, how tough is it to change the addy?

I do not know, but considering some to the photos I have seen.

You are also REQUIRED to use FFL EZ Check on digital copy's of an FFL. The address is listed after the number is confirmed.

hotpig
May 14, 2007, 10:41 AM
Actually I think they used the words "urged" to us the EZ Check.

Phaetos
May 14, 2007, 02:22 PM
But you can't use the EZ Check for FFL 03's. So it can't really be verified, thus us 03 people STILL have to send an original signed copy, because no vendor is going to accept an emailed copy of a number they can't verify on line.

Lone_Gunman
May 14, 2007, 02:37 PM
But you can't use the EZ Check for FFL 03's. So it can't really be verified, thus us 03 people STILL have to send an original signed copy, because no vendor is going to accept an emailed copy of a number they can't verify on line.

That is not true, according to the ATF newsletter. The ATF newsletter does not make a distinction between 01 and 03 licenses regarding email. An emailed version of either would appear legitimate to me in the eyes of the ATF.

Also, I don't see how a snail mailed copy of a FFL 03 is any more secure or verifiable than an emailed copy. If you are worried that the emailed copy might be a forgery, and a vendor refuses to ship because of that, why would you think it would be any more secure to receive a hard copy of it in the mail? All the buyer would have to do is print out the supposed forgery and mail it. I don't see how you think one is more secure than the other.

gezzer
May 15, 2007, 01:55 AM
On the C&R No easy check means send me your ink signed copy. It will be good for forensics if they want it. Remember you are not a dealer, you sent no prints photo's etc. to get your license.

With attitudes like this you wonder why many FFL’s will not ship to C&R’s?

Lone_Gunman
May 15, 2007, 08:31 AM
I have never encountered an FFL that won't ship to a C&R Holder. In fact that would seem to me to be bad business policy, since C&R holders are more likely than the average person to be regular customers. But, if that is your policy, thats OK because its your store.

As for the fingerprints, even if they were required for a C&R, how would that stop someone from getting a copy of my C&R, altering it electronically to put their address on it, then signing my name to it, and mailing it to you?

You will end up with a C&R license that looks valid, but is really a forgery, and whether it is delivered electronically or by snail mail won't matter.

What am I missing here?

The easiest way to handle this problem would by to put the C&R holders into the EZ check system. I don't see why this is not already done. Certainly they already have the names and numbers of C&R holders in a computer, why not just add them to the system.

gezzer
May 16, 2007, 11:30 PM
Hey I hold a C&R myself as my Corp 07 license means I would need a 4473 for every C&R I purchase through it.

They are not in the system because they are not a public dealer’s license. Want all your info on line? However it should be allowed in a secured web site, but remember we are dealing with the .gov on this.

So to cover my companies butt (for a $50 profit for a chance to go to a fed prison) send me an ink signed copy of your C&R or you will NOT get transferred to.

You C&R's need to lighten up.

AR-15 Rep
May 16, 2007, 11:49 PM
Also remember this, if you just print and send the info there would not be a pen ink signature. Sometimes you can see the ball pen pressing into the paper as opposed to a printer spraying it on.

Flyboy
May 17, 2007, 12:21 AM
Interestingly, the mandate to accept e-mailed copies was found in Footnote 3 of the Second Amendment.

QuickDraw
May 17, 2007, 12:45 AM
Whats an auto-pen?:confused:

Lone_Gunman
May 17, 2007, 08:04 AM
Sometimes you can see the ball pen pressing into the paper as opposed to a printer spraying it on.

So does that mean you wouldn't accept signed copies if you don't see press marks on the paper?

Kharn
May 17, 2007, 08:21 AM
gezzer:
The ATF specifically lays out who's responsible for the license's validity, as long as you recieve a clear, legible copy you're able to consider that as valid. It is not the FFL's job to ensure a CSI-type investigation can be done.

Quickdraw:
Its a machine that uses a pen and a moveable arm to produce a signature on a piece of paper, tracing an example of the desired signature. Politicians have them to sign letters to their constituants. Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopen)

Kharn

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