Standard issue LEO gear?


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The Unknown User
May 14, 2007, 10:23 PM
How can I find out what the standard issue sidearm, ammunition, light, etc. police departments use?

I'm curious because I'm considering buying a flashlight to go with my pistol when I get my license, and I'm not sure what the popular items are.

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Coastie
May 14, 2007, 10:27 PM
Just to get you started....

http://forums.realpolice.net/showthread.php?t=22684

The Unknown User
May 14, 2007, 10:42 PM
Wooooooooooooooooow! That's a big list. Thank you. :D

I'm curious; why do so many departments issue a .40? I thought 9mm was the caliber of choice?

Hogfan1911
May 14, 2007, 11:37 PM
I'm curious; why do so many departments issue a .40? I thought 9mm was the caliber of choice?
It was during the "wondernine" craze of the eighties into the nineties, then the .40 stole a lot of it's thunder. Many still issue the 9, also the .45ACP. Not sure what the nationwide breakdown is regarding police caliber. Best way to find out what your local cops use is just to ask. And just because they use a certain piece of gear doesn't mean it's right for you. Try different ones (especially if you haven't yet chosen your pistol) and see what fits you best before you buy. What I would do, anyway.

The Unknown User
May 14, 2007, 11:42 PM
I didn't mean to imply I would copy my local PD, but I am curious as to what they use (i.e. what does the state trust their officers lives to be protected by).

isp2605
May 15, 2007, 12:16 AM
This data is from 2000 and I don't believe it's been updated since. It shows the breakdown by caliber and agency. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/lemas00.pdf
Equipment issues vary greatly from agency to agency. With my agency we issued everything but your underwear, which included summer, winter, extreme cold weather, boots, shoes, all leather, vest, hats, gloves, etc. Everyone has a take home squad. In the squad is about $10K with of equipment including a laptop (MDC), all kinds of first responder gear, riot gear, Maglite, etc. You have a trunk full by the time everything is issued, sometimes more than a trunk full.

JLStorm
May 15, 2007, 02:18 AM
The .40 is a compromise between the 9mm and .45 for police agencies. Many would like the .45, but it is too expensive to shoot and to many of the women who get to go through with watered down physical requirements cant control the 45...EOE / affirmative action and all that...personally, if I call the cops I want some ball busting cop that looks like he should be named bubba or tiny, or even some woman who looks like she could be a linebacker on a womans football team coming to my aid...not some 5'1" girl that cant handle a 45 but got passed through because she was a female. But then again, I carry a gun so I dont have to rely on anyone else, but thats another issue entirely.

obxned
May 15, 2007, 02:31 AM
Seems like a lot of departments actually gave some thought to their firearms.

Rattlesnake
May 15, 2007, 02:36 AM
The .40 is a compromise between the 9mm and .45 for police agencies. Many would like the .45, but it is too expensive to shoot and to many of the women who get to go through with watered down physical requirements cant control the 45...EOE / affirmative action and all that...personally, if I call the cops I want some ball busting cop that looks like he should be named bubba or tiny, or even some woman who looks like she could be a linebacker on a womans football team coming to my aid...not some 5'1" girl that cant handle a 45 but got passed through because she was a female. But then again, I carry a gun so I dont have to rely on anyone else, but thats another issue entirely.

Bull. show me some facts here. I went to the academy with some petite but tough as hell broads. It's not that they can't "handle" X, Y, Z caliber it's that they lack fine motor control. the women had more problems with shooting and driving. In defensive tactics they did pretty good. I'd rather have some of them back me up rather than some of the other guys in the class.

inkhead
May 15, 2007, 02:43 AM
The well organized list is here ;-)

http://worldinventory.googlepages.com/

The Unknown User
May 15, 2007, 02:56 AM
Hm, it only lists firearms. What about their flashlight and vests? To be honest that's what I was interested in the most.

JLStorm
May 15, 2007, 02:57 AM
I was told this the Sheriff of my county when they made him switch from his 9mm to a 40, he was pretty pissed off that he couldnt carry a 45 and stated that not enough of the officers could shoot 45 effectively, especially the women who the county was pandering too for PC reasons I suppose. So only the special operations team was issued the 45. I read a similar account of the corpus christi police a few years back when they standardized and went to .40

As far as my local PD, the women on the force guard the movie theater and the malls (I am not joking), but then again, the local PD is so small that officers dont ride together and backup isnt always an option, unless it is a gender issue during an arrest. I also watched what the women went through in the police testing and qualifications and it is quite watered down. Anyway all I am saying is that everything should be equal and if some 5'1" girl can do it...good for her, but if she cant the standards shouldnt be lowered for her, she should have to rise to meet the standards or find another line of work.

Will Fennell
May 15, 2007, 03:18 AM
Everyone should train to a standard, but the trainers need to be up to the task. With adequate instruction, any healthy adult[excluding the elderly in some cases] who is properly motivated, should be able to handle an appropriate sized .45 autopistol, 12 ga shotgun, and/or .308 rifle. If a dept has trouble qualifying female officers, maybe they need new instructors.

Now since this thread seemed to be interested in handguns, I'll be the first to admit, that if you insisted that I qualify with a double column .45 like a G21, I wouldn't post as high a score as I would with a smaller framed gun, not because of recoil[I have a soft spot in my heart for full power 10mm loads], but because of fit.

Maybe what has happened is that LE dept's nationwide have found that medium frame9mm/.40 cal guns offer plenty of firepower, and do it in a package that FIT a wider range of officer's hands. Male and Female;)

ugaarguy
May 15, 2007, 03:22 AM
The .40 is a compromise between the 9mm and .45 for police agencies. Many would like the .45, but it is too expensive to shoot and to many of the women who get to go through with watered down physical requirements cant control the 45...EOE / affirmative action and all that...personally, if I call the cops I want some ball busting cop that looks like he should be named bubba or tiny, or even some woman who looks like she could be a linebacker on a womans football team coming to my aid...not some 5'1" girl that cant handle a 45 but got passed through because she was a female. But then again, I carry a gun so I dont have to rely on anyone else, but thats another issue entirely.

It's not that they can't "handle" X, Y, Z caliber it's that they lack fine motor control.

You two are way off base, and way off High Road standards. We have several female shooters here on the forum who shoot 45 ACP autos, and larger caliber revolvers, and they shoot them well. Moderator Pax is a firearms instructor in Seattle, and can shoot with the best of them. Member Springmom hunts in Texas with bore revolvers. Neither of them look like linebackers. Those two ladies are just a small example.
- Rant Off.

I'm curious because I'm considering buying a flashlight to go with my pistol when I get my license, and I'm not sure what the popular items are.
Thank you to the folks who answered the question about which items are commonly issued to LE these days.

From personal experience as a former USAF Comm/Electronics technician who served in Iraq I really like the Surefire E1 Executive as a bright standard pocket light, and any of the two cell Surefire or Streamlight offerings as a belt or cargo pocket light. The more basic lights have worked quite well for me. An innova or similar LED on the keyring is always a great idea as well. I know it's not LE experience, but working nightshift in the AOR lets you quickly learn what works and what doesn't.

ArfinGreebly
May 15, 2007, 03:29 AM
The .40 is a compromise between the 9mm and .45 for police agencies. Many would like the .45, but it is too expensive to shoot and to many of the women who get to go through with watered down physical requirements cant control the 45... [. . .] ...not some 5'1" girl that cant handle a 45 but got passed through because she was a female.
Wow.

Well, let's see. From my personal experience, the .40 actually has more slap.

My nineteen-year-old daughter shoots .40 better than 9mm.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=56549&d=1176498451
(And that was her first time out with a pistol.)

The gal at a nearby gun shop (5-foot-even, 110 pounds) showed me how to work the slide on the 1911 back when I was still new to pistols, she has a trophy (plaque, actually) from shooting plates with it.

I work with a couple of QA and Tech writers -- both ladies -- who prefer the .45 ACP because the recoil is "more push than slap."

I would submit that, given even a modicum of decent training, most ladies can handle .45 ACP quite nicely.

You're free to argue that with the ladies, of course.

We have a couple of distaff 1911 shooters here on THR, if memory serves, who would be happy to give you actual first-hand data should you require it.

I think we could hook that up.

Byron Quick
May 15, 2007, 03:32 AM
Y'all need to drop by Coal Creek Armory in Knoxville and tell Tamara that she can't handle her carry pistol-Colt Delta Elite in 10mm-because she's female.

Please wear protective gear if any of you guys are foolish enough to do that anywhere besides from behind a keyboard.

JLStorm
May 15, 2007, 03:35 AM
Moderator Pax is a firearms instructor in Seattle, and can shoot with the best of them. Member Springmom hunts in Texas with bore revolvers. Neither of them look like linebackers. Those two ladies are just a small example.

And I can promise you that they would be insulted if standards lowered on their accounts, and that they would rise to the challenge in order qualify without whining about difficulty.

As far as lights, I like the TRL-2, the light is great, tough, and has an excellent warranty. Streamlight customer service is also very helpful. I am not crazy about the remote switch however. The M6X is also great but overpriced unless you plan to go underwater with it IMO.

hso
May 15, 2007, 09:49 AM
If you're not on the PD sounds like you've been fed a line of BS by the local LEO chief.

.40 cheaper than .45? Check ammo prices for the past several years, .40 has always been more expensive to shoot than either .9 or .45 until just recently so the line about it being based on price just doesn't correspond to reality.

The .40 a compromise between the .45 and 9mm? Well, kinda, but not in the way I think you mean. The .40 came about as an effort to get the same terminal ballistic performance of a .45 with the capacity carrying ability of the wondernines. The euro 10mm was tried, but the not-invented-here effect set in and US fed law enforcement had to have a home grown caliber instead. Therefore the .40 S&W with the same terminal ballistics of the .45 provided in a smaller package.

Women not able to "handle a .45"? My wife's first handgun was a .45. She's all of 5'4". A buddy of mine who is a petite female of 5" picked a P13 in .45 for her first handgun (and that was after handling a dozen different calibers and makes/models) because it was the most comfortable to shoot. Another female friend of ours shoots a Kimber 1911 as her first after trying the same dozen guns on for size. I've seen plenty of women pick between 9mm, .40 and .45 and plenty picked .45s. There will be some in the point shooting class this weekend and they'll run 1,000+ rounds through their guns in 2 days. Just like the women in the previous PS courses we've had have done. They all handled it fine.

It's not that the things you were told are "not The High Road", but that they're just wrong.

If the local top cop has a problem with women then it's going to be reflected in the training and assignments and not a reflection of whether they can "handle" a .45.

grampster
May 15, 2007, 10:52 AM
My wife shot my Glock 27 (small frame, .40 cal.) all the time. When I gifted her a Beretta Tomcat in .32, she told me the hole in the end is not big enough.

strat81
May 15, 2007, 11:00 AM
Before you drop the $$$ on a surefire, why not get a cheap copy to carry to see if you can deal with carrying a flashlight all day everyday. Check Walmart for some copies. I picked up a $20 one for the nightstand that's blinding in a pitch-black bedroom.

As for surefire, the E2D Executive Defender would be my choice. Mmmm... strike bezel.

JWarren
May 15, 2007, 11:02 AM
It's not that they can't "handle" X, Y, Z caliber it's that they lack fine motor control.

I am going to need to see some documentation showing that women lack fine motor skills. Frankly, it is BS.

One of numerous articles and studies regarding fine motor skills and gender differences:

http://pub.ucsf.edu/today/cache/feature/200607261.html


Women tend to have faster and better fine-motor skills than men, as well as faster and broader verbal skills.


Here's another one:


http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~reka/hormones.htm

As it turns out, Jane really does have a memory like an elephant and Dick really is better at math, statistically speaking. Among the numerous behavioral differences that exist between men and women, it appears that men are better at spatial navigation, target-directed motor skills and mathematical reasoning, while women have better perceptual speed, memory, verbal fluency, have better fine motor control and perform better on mathematical calculation tasks.


It is interesting that as I was looking up the information for this post (I heard it a few years ago), I screened through a LOT of links. I didn't see ONE that asserted that Men have better fine motor skills than Women.

I'm not a feminist, and frankly, I am an old-school male in a lot of ways. But my grandfather always told me something that seems to apply here:

"Truth doesn't care if you believe it or not."


-- John

ATW525
May 15, 2007, 11:12 AM
A buddy of mine who is a petite female of 5" picked a P13 in .45 for her first handgun (and that was after handling a dozen different calibers and makes/models) because it was the most comfortable to shoot.

Um... 5"? I think that goes a little beyond "petite" :eek:

springmom
May 15, 2007, 11:12 AM
Since my name came up...

My first handgun (not actually belonging to my husband) was a Springfield XD-40. I now carry a Kimber Ultra Carry II in .45acp. Interestingly enough, I drill out the X ring with it. HOWEVER...I don't shoot nearly as well with my husband's Springfield GI 1911. Why? The grip. The Kimber has a smaller grip, is lighter weight, although not "light" by any means, and it fits my hands. My hands, while larger than many women's, are NOT large enough to really get a good grip on that Springfield. Perhaps if the officers, male or female, are given an option of several guns from which to choose and qualify, they might see an improvement.

As for fine motor skills, golly, I guess I'd better quit painting all those icons with all that teeny tiny detail on them because I don't have the fine motor skills to do that....

Part of this thread is informative and helpful, and to those who have posted informative and helpful things, thanks; I love learning from the other shooters on this board. It really galls me, though, to read stuff like:

personally, if I call the cops I want some ball busting cop that looks like he should be named bubba or tiny, or even some woman who looks like she could be a linebacker on a womans football team coming to my aid...not some 5'1" girl that cant handle a 45 but got passed through because she was a female. But then again, I carry a gun so I dont have to rely on anyone else, but thats another issue entirely.

or

It's not that they can't "handle" X, Y, Z caliber it's that they lack fine motor control.

Caliber is irrelevant to gender. I have arthritis and am 52 years old and I shoot a Super Redhawk in .44mag in deer season, hunting the brush of east Texas woods. I shoot our .357 magnum at the range just for the fun of it. When I'm not carrying my Kimber, I carry a lightweight m37 with hot +P loads that I personally think are fun to shoot and that my HUSBAND doesn't like. Gender doesn't matter. Training and practice are what matter. I do agree that any police academy student should have to meet the basic physical requirements of the job, regardless of who they are...but the idea that a woman has to "look like a linebacker" to do them is repugnant. The whole male vs. female sub-thread here is repugnant.

Springmom, who is not a linebacker and does not play one on tv :p but who really does quite well with the big bore handguns, thank you very much

hso
May 15, 2007, 11:32 AM
Um... 5"? I think that goes a little beyond "petite"


Hmmm, silly fingers. I just washed them and can't do a thing with them.:D

Five feet tall, yeah, that's what I meant! ;)

Ala Dan
May 15, 2007, 12:11 PM
Weapon = (our choice) Revolver or Semi-Auto .38 caliber or larger
Ammo = Winchester "Black Talon" isssued by deparetmental regs
Flashlight = Most preferred the old original Mag-Lite
Baton = Asp either 16" length or 21" length
Handcuffs = Smith & Wesson
Leather = Sam Brown style, as made by Bianchi, Safariland, or Don Hume

Neo-Luddite
May 15, 2007, 01:08 PM
They went to 9mm and decided it was underpowered (or whatever)..

They went to the .40 s&w as a compromise between capacity/momentum/ and relatively high kinetic energy..

Then some came to old .45 ACP


The bottom line seems to be, if you want all new gear, ya gotta change calibers to justify the exepnese to somebody.

For most police in most places, they could MORE than get by with a .357 even today--it can be loaded to hand-cannon specs.



And as far as .45 ACP being too much for a small-framed woman--anyone who thinks so has not been around very many small-framed women.:evil:
No, a 1911 may not fit their hand--but in properly hand-fitting platform .45 ACP is a pretty easy caliber to manage.

jcoiii
May 15, 2007, 01:21 PM
There was a female in my department that preferred the H&K .45 of her old dept to the .40 glock of our dept now.

My wife prefers the 1911 .45's to my glock .40 or my xd .45 and her CZ 9mm. Go figure.

Frog48
May 15, 2007, 01:23 PM
Just because a department issues something doesnt necessarily mean that its a great item. Cost per person factors into what it procured.

Try out an assortment of stuff, and see what works best for YOU.

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