List of Advantages of Revolvers + rant


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Shawn Michael
May 16, 2007, 04:57 PM
While I constantly hear autoloader users talking about the thousands and thousands of rounds they shoot without malfunctions, I sometimes wonder. Spending a lot of time at shooting ranges I see a LOT of autoloader failures...the most common and prominent one "failure to go into battery" so you see the guy who has to push the slide forward those few milimeters every shot to get the arm to function. I have had this problem too often with well maintained autos and factory ammo.

While I think for military and many LEO applications autos are the obvious choice, for home defense I really have come to feel a lot better with revovlers.

My personal choice is a SW Military and Police 8 shot .357 revovler with a streamlight on the bottom rail. With California high cap ban and practice with moonclips getting faster and faster, I feel pretty good.

Autoloaders have more firepower and reload faster (though someone who drills with moonclips can get really close to a lesser trained with and auto) Autoloaders have a faster cycle rate, though that too seems to depend on the caliber and operator. Watch some competitive revolver shooters, it is amazing.

REVOLVERS
1) Generally more reliable because they are more simple
2) Can recover far more rapidly from the most common cause of failure (ammo problems)
3) More likely to function under extream stress: In "The bullet proof mind" Col Grossman details numerous accounts of effects of extream stress which often include shaking, weakness "jelly hands", inability to complete simple mechanical functions like the very common phenomena of not being able to DIAL 911 because of severe shaking, which does not bode well for clearing a jam, having, not limp wristing, or working with safties!
This could far and away be the end of the list
4) Pressure on the front of many auto will cause them to go out of battery and fail. In a close quarters quarrle this is an important factor. If you jam an auto in someones ribs or have to shoot in close quarters it is more likely to be obstructed and fail.

5) Revolvers will shoot many differnt types of ammo which makes them more versatile and again more reliable as the gun does not have a power threashold needed to cycle.

6) Revlover will go off standing on your head with a broken arm as long as you can squeeze the trigger, it will cycle. No limp wrist syndrome. (I can get my glock 23 to fail to go into battery almost every time with limp wrist)

7) LEO organizations report increased accidental discharges with autos (causing call for modifications such as "new york trigger" on glocks etc) If the professionals are having more problems non professionals would seem to be at greater risk

Can you add to the list?

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Shooter973
May 16, 2007, 05:22 PM
ya don't lose the brass......

ozwyn
May 16, 2007, 05:29 PM
the much-respected and often worshipped .45 acp (the stereotypical powerful autoloader) is STILL the younger, shorter little brother of .45 LC :neener:

Vern Humphrey
May 16, 2007, 05:41 PM
Revolvers have many good points -- but as I've often said, hang around long enough and you'll read many accounts of revolver malfunctions. And most of them do not respond to Immediate Action drills.

The most recent was a case where the retaining screw backed out a bit, and the cylinder fell off.

Shawn Michael
May 16, 2007, 08:17 PM
I really like sitting in front of the big screen with snap caps and "shooting"

no picking up mangled brass, good point, esp if you reload

Big cals for hunting

Easier to mount optics

Bearhands
May 16, 2007, 08:33 PM
far less revolver "wannabees" than autos... ?

Hawk
May 16, 2007, 08:44 PM
ya don't lose the brass......

As a revolver noob, this was noticed early on.

Picking up brass from my "main" (semi) was such a pain I never did it. I may get to re-use brass for the first time in my life.

Pilgrim
May 16, 2007, 08:56 PM
ya don't lose the brass......
A real advantage in snow country.

Pilgrim

trickyasafox
May 16, 2007, 08:57 PM
i'm no expert, but didn't bob mundan (sp?) do a special on american shooter a few years ago on shooting a colt SAA and a colt 1911 for speed? i know this happened, and the colt SAA was much faster.

unless i've gone totally crazy at 23 years old, i don't think this has changed. now maybe da revolvers are a bit different, but i'll bet the speed between them is moot for 99% of the shooters around.

okay not 99 but you get the point.

Plink
May 16, 2007, 08:58 PM
Revolvers have many good points -- but as I've often said, hang around long enough and you'll read many accounts of revolver malfunctions.

Very true. One of my friends carries a revolver concealed every day. He goes out shooting about twice a month and shoots a box or so of cartridges. He also rotates his carry ammo by shooting the older rounds and putting fresh ones in. To practice firing from the draw, he pulled from the holster and attempted to fire his carry rounds. The cylinder wouldn't rotate. Turns out that a large seam thread from his jacket or holster had found it's way in between the hand and the cylinder and wouldn't allow the hand to come forward enough to rotate the cylinder.

Revolvers can jam and when they do, they're often harder to clear than with an autoloader. I carried a revolver for years and never had any reliability problems, but they can and do happen.

skeeter1
May 16, 2007, 10:42 PM
Believe me, I love my semi-auto Beretta. It's great fun to shoot or even just plink with.

However, If my butt really has to depend on a handgun, I'll take a S&W revolver over it any day. No firearm is going to be 100% reliable, but a high-quality revolver is probably as close as you're going to get.

sm
May 16, 2007, 11:22 PM
Revolvers do not require a magazine to run.

Not that I have ever left magazines at home for a semi-auto mind you...*ahem*

~

When that really neat lady gives you , a kid, an old cylinder to put pencils in...can't do that with a 1911 mag.
Then again you can't launch the follower across the room on a revolver cylinder either.
Amazing what I could with gun stuff at age 3 ...stuff in general. *smirk*

ArchAngelCD
May 17, 2007, 01:15 AM
Autoloaders have more firepower and reload faster (though someone who drills with moonclips can get really close to a lesser trained with and auto) Autoloaders have a faster cycle rate, though that too seems to depend on the caliber and operator. Watch some competitive revolver shooters, it is amazing.
OK, mere mortals like us can't do this, but it can be done. The reload at the end of the video looks as fast or faster than any semi-auto Mag reload. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-whjNtTFHK4

Shawn Michael
May 17, 2007, 02:56 AM
I have seen similar clips and this is totally unreal.

Another fellow mentioned that he is a lefty and he has accidentally "dropped" the mag on his auto by hitting the release with his middle finger on recoil. If you are a lefty with large paws you can see how this can happen!

Glad no one took offense to the thread, probably because it is in the revolver section

Geister
May 17, 2007, 04:22 AM
Easier to reload for and I don't have to clean the brass as often.

kmrcstintn
May 17, 2007, 05:32 AM
older stuff is cool...

being older is cool...

dimentia is my friend...

alzheimers let's me forget who I don't like and I make new friends everyday...they seem to know me very well...

oh wait...revolvers

older stuff is cool...;)

Zeke Menuar
May 17, 2007, 06:19 AM
Try to field strip a revolver. If your wheelgun goes down in the field, your done.

Not enough ammo.

The (insert expletive here) cylinder digs into your hip.

More reliable? You get your wheel gun, I'll get my XD. We'll shoot until your revolver fails, and it will fail first.

I'm a lefty. Trying to load a revolver in a hurry, with a speedloader is next to impossible.

I like revolvers as nostalgia. For high powered applications they are still the best answer.

But for everything else they are obsolete.

Flame on!

This is my opinion. Your opinion may vary

ZM

JustsayMo
May 17, 2007, 07:41 AM
Loading an autoloader is faster?

Only if you don't count loading the magazine.

Try this unscientific experiement.
-One box of ammo for each gun,
-One DA revolver (in my case a 1917 Colt)
-One Autoloading Pistol (in my case a 1911)

Both guns (and magazine) empty, ammo in pocket, load and shoot 50 shots into a 6" bull at 25 feet as fast as possible. Which one is faster for you? For me it was the DA revolver.

I personally have not had a revolver malfunction but I have witnessed two. Both were ammo related. One was a 357 DA revolver that the recoil unseated the bullets in the neighboring chamber and projected forward of the cylinder stopping rotation. The other was a squib load. Could have be catastrophic in either style of gun.

In my exprience as a volunteer range safety officer at our club autoloaders (long and short), by far are the most likely and common failures/malfunctions to fire. Sometimes it's magazines, sometimes it requires cleaning/lubrication. Three recent failures required coming off the line to be repaired.

After years of only owning and carrying autos I've converted to revolvers. Out of the box more accurate and more reliable. NOT ammo sensitive/finnicky and ammo is much more versatile (shot, cast, jacketed, HP, solid, cowboy to magnum levels). Brass doesn't litter the country side. Superior balistics and game performance. Easy to maintain. Rugged. Easier and more intuitive for novice shooters.

If I am in a situation the requires more than 6 shots I already made at least two mistakes; poor situational awareness and not having a long gun. I'm lucky to be alive at that point.

No doubt an autoloader is an excellent carry piece. It can carry lots of ammo on board, its slimmer (usually) profile, its lighter (usually) and capable of a high volume firing.

For all around utility, give me a revolver every time.

Quoheleth
May 17, 2007, 10:06 AM
Shawn Michael wrote: 4) Pressure on the front of many auto will cause them to go out of battery and fail. In a close quarters quarrle this is an important factor. If you jam an auto in someones ribs or have to shoot in close quarters it is more likely to be obstructed and fail.


While I wouldn't want to be in any situation with a gun shoved into my ribs, be it revolver, auto, or even a TC Contender, a revolver can also be taken out of battery.

In this situation (a gun shoved into my guts), an uncocked DA revolver can be stopped by clamping a hand firmly over the hammerspur. A trigger finger does NOT have enough mechanical advantage to pull the trigger and raise the hammer against such force.

Likewise, if the hammer is back on a cocked revolver (either a SA or a DA), drop the web of the hand, a thumb, or even the whole hand between the hammer and firing pin. It will hurt like no tomorrow, expecially if the firing pin is fixed onto the hammer, but that will hurt a lot less than a hot lead slug passing through your guts.

My point is that it is possible and if I'm ever in that defensive situation and can do it, I'll give it a try to try to save my life.

The key in this thread is to use what is comfortable and manageable for the situation. I wouldn't want to hunt with my Taurus PT 92; I wouldn't want to attempt to carry my 6" GP100 concealed. Both wheelguns and autos have +'s and -'s. Pick what you like and use it; don't worry about talking others out of the opposite choice.

Q

DawgFvr
May 17, 2007, 11:08 AM
VH: A very enlightening post! No guarantees with either weapon methinks. I need to get more into the habit of carrying a bug. If it is worthwhile carrying an auto, I really need to back it up with a small J frame. If I am carrying the J frame as primary, it really would be wise to back it up with an auto bug, e.g., P3AT, Bersa, etc.

ZeSpectre
May 17, 2007, 11:29 AM
I'm a lefty. Trying to load a revolver in a hurry, with a speedloader is next to impossible.

Hey Zeke Menuar,

Found a way... Sixgun Speedloading for Southpaws (http://http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=276523).

ewayte
May 17, 2007, 11:46 AM
More reliable? You get your wheel gun, I'll get my XD. We'll shoot until your revolver fails, and it will fail first.

How long do you think your XD's extractor will hold up, even against another semi-auto? And when it does break, you'll have to send it back to Springfield as they don't sell parts, not even to gunsmiths.

Bula
May 17, 2007, 11:58 AM
I find revos more accurate than most box stock autos.

crebralfix
May 17, 2007, 12:43 PM
The main advantage of revolvers over semi-autos that I see is really one in training.

1) The double action trigger forces you to have/develop good technique.
2) Most people aren't afraid of the "mystery" of a revolver's action. Most people seem to get apprehensive around semi-autos their first few times out.

Other advantages:

3) More powerful cartridges are available
4) Accepts different shapes, such as flat nosed bullets

Disadvantages:

1) Low capacity
2) Longer time for proficiency in reloading
3) Slower reloading time (except for Jerry M.)

The lower capacity is a big deal. In force on force scenarios, 20+ rounds in an Airsoft gun does NOT last long. It's very easy to tear through 16 rounds. Now face down three guys with only six in the cylinder and everyone is running. Most folks seem to fall apart even in a FoF scenario. YOU WILL MOST LIKELY MISS SOME SHOTS. There is not much room for missing in a 5 or 6 shot cylinder. Forget statistics; that's all they are and it's no guarantee you'll only have to fight 1.3 goblins.

It's a great thing when you have time to aim. It's a whole different story when you're trying to shoot someone while running over rough ground and they're going every which way AND trying to shoot you. Just something to keep in mind.

pax
May 17, 2007, 01:07 PM
I love revolvers. Love the reload sequence, love the accuracy, love the smooth feel of a long, sweet, well-worn DA revolver trigger.

I will never carry one.

When I first started out, I knew I was not a good enough shooter to carry only 5 or 6 rounds.

That is not so much an issue anymore, but there's another thing: every time I shoot more than 50 rounds in DA, my trigger finger swells up and gets terribly sore. If I keep going, my finger stops working. I mean I literally find myself unable to pull the trigger again, the finger just freezes and will not bend any further.

Not going to carry anything I cannot practice intensively with.

I'm not alone, by the way. For every new shooter I've met who's developed the terrible habit of whacking the back of the slide on every shot (cheap or unlubed semi-auto didn't go into battery ...), I've encountered an equal number of revolver owners who really could not cope with the DA trigger, and either shot solely in SA mode, or used both trigger fingers to pull the trigger.

What's all that mean? Gun choice is a very personal thing.

Get what works for you. Then learn how to shoot it properly and practice enough that you know you'll always be able to hit what you need to hit in as little time as possible.

And don't dis other people's choices. You don't wear their skin and you don't know how the guns feel for them or work for them. There is no One True Sword for everyone.

pax

Isildur
May 17, 2007, 01:07 PM
I think another advantage for daily use is the lack of magazine spring which could weaken over the time, which would then lead to malfunctions.
So far I've heard about this issue more as a theoretical aspect, has anyone more infos on how likely that is?

HiWayMan
May 17, 2007, 02:50 PM
In this situation (a gun shoved into my guts), an uncocked DA revolver can be stopped by clamping a hand firmly over the hammerspur. A trigger finger does NOT have enough mechanical advantage to pull the trigger and raise the hammer against such force.

On an uncocked DA this isn't even neccessary. Simple grabbing the cylinder will keep the gun from firing. Much easier than the smaller target of the hammer.;)

Shawn Michael
May 17, 2007, 04:25 PM
The more info and experience you can tap the better decisions one can make. Most young guys NEVER consider a revovler and go right for a auto...so it is good to get all the sides, this being the revolver side from my perspecitve and not wanting to disrespect anyone... that is why it is posted here in the revolver forum....nice to gather up info and perspectives and talk to like minded folks

my experience with auto loaders and observations at the range lead me to really questions them so I have gone toward 7 and 8 shot .357s and a lot of practice

Being a civilian I am not seeing myself going into a high cap battle and if so I'll get the M1A!

kellyj00
May 17, 2007, 05:42 PM
If I were going into combat i wouldn't fill my pack with a bunch of speed loaders, I'd fill it with magazines.

Granted revolvers have their place, and they were first. They have great advantage, as mentioned in hunting due to optics and cartridge size...

I just don't know... they're both great... the best thing though, at a concrete floored range, you don't ever squish your revolver brass under your feet... and you're not going to lose any.

but, you only get 5-8 shots...no question, before you have to reload. I've got a 1911, an XD 9mm and I'm going to get a 4" .357 Ruger GP100 as soon as I find one at a good price.

TT
May 17, 2007, 06:17 PM
Simple grabbing the cylinder will keep the gun from firing.

The cylinder grab trick is pretty easily defeated- twist the gun violently while pulling the trigger, clockwise for S&Ws, counter-clockwise for Colt (just twist quickly in both directions sequentially if you have a bad memory).

Cosmoline
May 17, 2007, 06:20 PM
Try to field strip a revolver. If your wheelgun goes down in the field, your done.

Nonsense. Any Ruger Six or GP-100 frame revolver is a breeze to take down. No tools required, either. This seems like yet another example of opinion based on myth. It reminds me of the one that revolvers will go out of time if you drop them. LOL

You get your wheel gun, I'll get my XD. We'll shoot until your revolver fails, and it will fail first.

I'll take that bet. Only I want you to load your XD with a rotating series of loads from wadcutters to 200 grain hardcast, from FMJ to soft lead HP's, from shotshells to roundballs. Quality semis work well, but they run on very narrow tracks. Get far off the tracks, and they fail completely. This is why I laugh at the notion that a .357 Sig = a .357 magnum. I ain't seen a sig that can fire 180 grain hardcasts.

Bart Noir
May 17, 2007, 08:24 PM
1) My NIB S&W 940 (9mm J-frame) would not fire more than 3 of the +P rounds before the cylinder stopped turning. I think that rounds were backing out under recoil and the 5-round clip couldn't hold them in. No problem with normal pressure rounds.

2) My very-used-when-I-bought-it S&W 940 will fire the +P rounds but I can't unload the clip full of empties without love taps from a mallet. This is likely due to the rough chambers.

3) My first heavy barrel Colt Police Positive Special (4-inch heavy barrel with a half underlug) would not fire a full cylinder (double action) without shaving buller jackets so bad the cylinder would lock up. And I thought it had been barely fired when I bought it. I don't know where that timing problem came from.

4) My second heavy-barrel PPS had a cylinder release latch that went forward far enough to catch cartridge rims and jam the cylinder. On Colts the latch is also part of the recoil shield, when it is not pulled back to release the cylinder.

So yes, I'll carry revolvers but only after I have fired them enough to be sure they don't have problems. Most do not have any problem but I can't accept that "revolvers don't jam" because I have been there and done that, in the comfort of a range.

Bart Noir
Who agrees with Pax about the trigger finger getting tired of DA shooting. Same thing when doing a lot of DA shooting with a semiautomatic. What, people don't practice DA using DA/SA guns? Is that so they can plan on missing the first shot in a really tense situation?

Geister
May 17, 2007, 08:31 PM
Try to field strip a revolver. If your wheelgun goes down in the field, your done.

Why would anyone need to field strip a revolver? If you keep it clean this is a non-issue.

Not enough ammo.

For what purposes? Are you planning on doing a drive-by or getting into a shoot-out with a gang?

For self-defense six rounds is plenty. If you need more than that you need more practice.

The (insert expletive here) cylinder digs into your hip.

Buy a better holster.

More reliable? You get your wheel gun, I'll get my XD. We'll shoot until your revolver fails, and it will fail first.

And how would you know this? Revolvers have a proven track record. The XDs have only been out a few years.

At least revolvers have a coolness factor; everyone already owns a XD, including guys that aren't much into guns. It's a yuppie gun.

I'm a lefty. Trying to load a revolver in a hurry, with a speedloader is next to impossible.

I'll give you that but it's not hard to learn how to be ambidextrious. Besides, the safety is on the left side for many autos.

I like revolvers as nostalgia. For high powered applications they are still the best answer.

But for everything else they are obsolete.

Wouldn't "high powered applications" be a self-defense situation? The VAST, VAST majority of self defense situations end with two rounds or less, unless you start spraying bullets. If chances are VERY good that I'm only going to need two or three bullets, I'd prefer to have the most powerful round I can carry, like a .357 Magnum.

It's a good idea to use a revolver for a carry weapon and an auto for a back-up.

jad0110
May 17, 2007, 08:52 PM
I do like not having to pick up brass. That is a BIG plus for the reloader.

Autoloaders have a faster cycle rate, though that too seems to depend on the caliber and operator.

That point is debatable. Both can be fired mighty fast, it really depends more on the skills of the individual behind the backstrap. Ed McGivern stated that he could should a DA revolver faster than a semi-auto. I'm assuming that's because the ultimate speed limit of a DA wheelgun is the speed/precision of your trigger finger. The speed limit of an auto is the speed limit of the slide returning to battery. Granted, it's probably easier for most folks to fire an auto quicker, though that means nothing if you can't hit what you're aiming at.

Try to field strip a revolver. If your wheelgun goes down in the field, your done.

I would add that if your life depends on field stripping either, you are screwed.

Not enough ammo.

I could say the same of many shotguns. Saw a nice 6 shot Mossberg 590 not long ago. But I guess it's obsolete, huh? ;) (just messin with ya a little) :)

A lot of people site the deaths of the two NJ state troopers back in the 80s. They were armed with 6 shot 357s while 6 (I think) bad guys were armed with wundernines. The argument made is that those 2 troopers would be alive had they been armed with autos. I'm not so sure. Put the shoe on the other foot. What if the 2 cops were armed with wonderautos and the 6 thugs were armed with 6 shot 357s? That's still 6 aim points against 2. Not good! The only small arm that could hope to even the odds a bit more would be a long gun of some type.

I'm not inferring that LE should go back to revolvers, though I'm sure more than a few would like to have a choice.

The (insert expletive here) cylinder digs into your hip.

A matter of personal preference, like what your favorite ice cream is. I prefer carrying a revolver for its rounded edges and curved surfaces. Other than weight (and a good belt/holster could offset that), my 686 is easier for me personally to carry than my XD.

More reliable? You get your wheel gun, I'll get my XD. We'll shoot until your revolver fails, and it will fail first.

I own both. Neither has ever failed me. Granted, in some ways, the revolver's reliability advantage is a little overrated. Then again, they will function regardless of grip strength, orientation, etc. Important considerations in a self defense where you are fighting for your life, possibly injured lying on the ground and weakened.

But for everything else they are obsolete.

Perhaps for you, but not for me and many others. Tell me which I'm better served by ... at a range last week I rapid fired my S&W 686 and my Springfield XD9 back-to-back at a range of 7 yds. Rapid fire for me is roughly 3 rounds in a little over 1 second, wheelie or auto.

First up was the 686. All 3 rounds landed in a decent, though not remarkable 4 to 5" grouping.

Next the XD. The first round impacted near POA. Only one other round even hit the paper, down at the extreme bottom edge of the paper. Don't know where the other one went :eek: ... won't do that again :o .

And when comparing the XD to my 642, I can shoot both equally well in slow fire but again, the 642 wins in rapid fire.

For me, capacity is pretty low down on my list of priorities. All the rounds don't matter to me if I can't hit the broad side of a barn from inside with the doors closed. Shootability and reliability is at the top of my list. For that reason, I'll be trading my XD for a 1911 soon. I just shoot them better. I'll put at least 500 rounds through it, maybe 1000, before I call it reliable of course.

The XD and many other autos are all great guns. I won't knock anyone who chooses one. Just don't knock my choices and we're cool :cool:.

What's all that mean? Gun choice is a very personal thing.

Get what works for you. Then learn how to shoot it properly and practice enough that you know you'll always be able to hit what you need to hit in as little time as possible.

And don't dis other people's choices. You don't wear their skin and you don't know how the guns feel for them or work for them. There is no One True Sword for everyone.

pax,

That's sums it up just right. Thanks!

BoneDigger
May 17, 2007, 09:02 PM
There is a certain intimidation factor about looking down the wrong end of a revolver and seeing that cylinder full of hollowpoints, just waiting to do some damage! Granted, looking down the barrtel of any gun can't be fun, but seeing those bullets taunting you. Well, I wouldn't want to be there...

I'm not sure if a revolver is more accurate or not, but I seem to shoot them better than my autos. I have a taurus PT145 nd a Ruger P90 and neither has ever failed me. I also have a Smith 686 and a 642 and I love them both. They simply have a classiness that the autos can't match (especially my 686).

Todd

tinygnat219
May 17, 2007, 10:50 PM
First of all, I have nothing against revolvers, I have more of them than I do semi-autos. However, I will take a semi-auto for self-defense for three easy reasons:
1. They carry more rounds. Hey the 6 shot .357 isn't bad, but I will take the 14 shot semi-auto .45 ACP anyday. Yeah, I know that if I need more than 6 rounds, I am in a world of hurt, but if I need the additional 8 in my semi-auto, they are already there.

2. They are slimmer in profile. MUCH easier to conceal.

3. They are MUCH faster in general to reload.

That's my .02.

RevolvingCylinder
May 18, 2007, 12:19 AM
If I were going into combat i wouldn't fill my pack with a bunch of speed loaders, I'd fill it with magazines.
I would too. Rifle magazines. I hope you're not of the persuasion that a pistol with a large magazine is any match for a rifle. It's as woefully inadequate as a revolver in such a situation.

20nickels
May 18, 2007, 01:17 AM
My Glock was very reliable (only jammed once!) and accurate in .40 S&W which is an outstanding modern round. I traded it for a well balanced revolver. It's all what you like, nothing to do with nostalgia or aesthestics. Both can be reloaded very quickly with a little practice.

eliphalet
May 18, 2007, 01:32 AM
I have owned /own a few of each, For self defense I use a revolver. Never had a auto that "never" jammed, never had a revolver that had a problem that wasn't ammo related. Neither holds true everywhere every time. but as a rule the wheel gun is gonna be more reliable and easier to use in an emergency.
Nothing to remember but point and pull.

I have watched plenty of the real life video's on the tube the last couple of years and several times a cops auto jammed on him at a very bad time. I have yet to see that with a revolver. Just an observation.

James T Thomas
May 18, 2007, 05:27 PM
Long term storage: Less sensitivity to lube runoff.

Long term storage: no spring compression fatigue nor magazine replacement schedule to follow.

Long term storage: no plastic decomposition through age. Plastic is an organic chemical.

The essential grip is established when grasped on a side lying gun. Guns are contrary mechanisms; grip one improperly; mismanage the trigger operation, or fail to maintain sight alignment -all "multitasking," and shots will stray

Transfer safety bar mechanism. Suddenly grabbed handguns do get dropped.

No safety switch to fumble with in a crisis moment; especially by an unfamiliar family member

Unmistakeable determination of loaded condition compared to pulling the slide partially back.

A more elementary loading procedure. Now a magazine insertion is simple too, but many have been inserted by those in a desperate situation -backward!

Foolproof (reassembly); from cleaning. That is, are you sure you put the parts in correctly? Revolver? Close the cylinder and it is ready. The military has guns test fired before going on patrol, for just that reason.

Functional, reguardless of orientation; upside down, sideways etc. You may, or your spouse, slip and fall retreating from a threat.

Interferance resistant mechanism. No need for concern when firing close to a barrier or within a pocket

Misfire remedy of another trigger stroke versus slide acivation; single action pistols

kmrcstintn
May 18, 2007, 06:34 PM
get 'em James Thomas...get 'em good! the only stoppages that I have encountered with a revolver is from primer caps that weren't seated properly and the caps popped backwards made contact with the breechface; total occurrances in 6 years of shooting: revolver stoppages...2 in nearly 20,000 rounds fired...much lower than all the semiauto stoppages that I experienced over the years...feed problems, weak-powered rounds, limp wristing, etc

wheelguns for me in the handgun department...no more semiautos

461
May 18, 2007, 07:04 PM
I've got lots of revolvers and only one centerfire semi auto. I decided it was time to try an auto again after many years of swearing them off after some bad malfunctions with supposedly great guns. I bought a Glock (34)based on its reputation and have refused steadfastly to make any "Improvements" to it at all and it is as reliable a gun as I could ever want through several thousand rounds so far. Do I trust it completely? No, not yet but it is definitely growing on me.

My GP-100 has been through many thousands more rounds than the Glock and has also been as reliable a gun as I could ever want. Do I trust it completely? No, not yet but it is definitely growing on me.

Bottom line, get a good reliable gun and shoot it to the point you trust it completely (almost) and you can't help but be well served.

22LongRifle
May 18, 2007, 07:27 PM
I cut my teeth on a M13 S&W. I still have it along with a couple more and a few Rugers. They ain't going anywhere.

I shoot the M1911 and the M9 in the service. I have respect for both. I own XDs and Glocks. I DEPEND on them.

The major "flaw" I think the wheelguns have is the reloading. But, since they have been keeping stats on gunfights, the number of shots is two to three and the distance keeps getting closer.

The one thing that worries me on semis is the magazines! Glock has just about come as close to perfection with their design and manufactoring. But it just takes a bent or chipped lip on one to ruin your day. And ammo selection also puts me off on semis.

And another thing, I can put six 357 LAWMAN 125gr JHPs in a three inch group at 7 yards and reload and do the same thing at the ten yard target very quickly. I really don't know what me time is, but judging by the dropped jaws of the semi shooters, I think it was pretty good. :)

As with any weapon, one needs to practice with just ONE and get great at it! For me, its the wheelgun. Its what I grew up with and what I have on my nightstand and my front pocket. For my daughter, she likes her G19. She shoots weekly with it and its her only weapon, besides her AA 22lr conversion kit for it.

Jerry

wcwhitey
May 18, 2007, 07:51 PM
Mechanical devices can and will fail, revolvers are less prone to failure. I do agree that if I knew I was going into combat I would take my clean 1911 with several loaded mags over a revolver and speedloaders. But not knowing when combat will come and having to descretely carry a firearm in lint filled dark and sometimes sweaty places in preparation for said combat is a job for a revolver. For hunting large game in a large powerful caliber in a platform that has balance and grace, well that is a place for a revolver. JMHO Bill

jad0110
May 18, 2007, 10:33 PM
Now a magazine insertion is simple too, but many have been inserted by those in a desperate situation -backward!

:eek:

I saw a guy at the range trying to do that with his Glock. He was really trying to force it in there until someone pointed out what he was doing. His face turned dark red.

Oh well, I shouldn't be talking. I once struggled through a steak dinner holding the sharp end of the knife up-side-down :o. I was thinking, "Boy, Outback sure ought to replace their knives every now and then ... errr ... DOH!"

James T Thomas
May 18, 2007, 10:58 PM
Jad:

One of my most embarrasing was to fire a 380 round in my 9mm!
It fired and there was not damage to me or the pistol.

I wasn't paying attention.

Blue .45
May 19, 2007, 02:58 AM
So, basically, there are pros and cons to each platform. Guess it's a good thing I have both. :D

Geister
May 19, 2007, 04:15 AM
Hey the 6 shot .357 isn't bad, but I will take the 14 shot semi-auto .45 ACP anyday.

Not sure that I would want to carry a gun that thick day in and day out. The XD is a cool gun but it looks too much like a Glock knockoff to me.

My problem with the .45 ACP is that outside of self-defense, I don't have a real use for it. The power band of the .45 ACP is just too narrow. However, with the .357 Magnum I can hunt snakes to deer. I've tried talking myself into getting a .45 ACP eventually but right now I just keep going back to the .357.

The .45 ACP is an excellent self-defense cartridge and quieter, but the .357 Magnum is just more versatile.

If you're in a situation which calls for 14 rounds of .45 ACP, you better RUN and ESCAPE before you're even halfway through your magazine.

Shawn Michael
May 19, 2007, 04:31 AM
My first gun was a glock 23. I never considered a revolver...I grew up watching Lethal Weapon "six shooter, lots of old timers carry those" I always kept the glock at bedside but would wonder if there was one in the chamber, if it would go off if I slipped or if it would fail to go into battery etc. I usually only kept 8 in the mag after being warned that spring could compress etc. I had enough failures with it to have something that was supposed to give me peace of mind not do so.

guys who are all about autos really are amazed shooting my 7 and 8 shot .357's 686 and 327 TTR8 they point like a dream, and have a lot of power...

Sold my glock and am half way though the waiting period on an XD

Geister
May 19, 2007, 05:18 AM
I'm more into high-power handgun cartridges, so I have trouble getting into autoloaders. I would consider a .45 ACP but haven't yet due to the reasons I've mentioned.

A 10mm would be on my list.

crebralfix
May 19, 2007, 09:23 AM
Quote:
Not enough ammo.
For what purposes? Are you planning on doing a drive-by or getting into a shoot-out with a gang?

For self-defense six rounds is plenty. If you need more than that you need more practice.

We're talking about gunfighting here, not hunting. This is ignorance of gunfighting at its worst. Try some force on force scenarios with your Airsoft downloaded to what your carry gun holds (16 in my case, 6 for my 625). Then, run the scenario at full speed with one or two attackers. When everyone is sprinting, dodging and shooting, hit rates drop to almost stupid levels. Peripheral hits are difficult enough; try a head shot AND avoid getting hit at the same time.

It's very different than just standing there on the range shooting at paper. Even sidestepping and shooting at non-moving paper does not really help. In fact, it's a whole different set of skills that must be practiced like any other martial art.

pax
May 19, 2007, 09:31 AM
The thing that a lot of folks don't seem to understand is that bad guys have friends too, and often travel in packs.

pax

pwrtool45
May 19, 2007, 09:44 AM
I'm sorry, I didn't read all three pages of this thread. Did we establish who can pee the furthest? I think in the last thread it was the guy who posted the most with caps lock on and called other people names.

Eh, wait. This isn't the peeing contest thread? Oh, it's the auto v/s revolver thread. Hard to tell sometimes. Carry on. ;)

James T Thomas
May 19, 2007, 12:42 PM
Cerebralfix and Pax:

Your contention is a valid one. Pax, I've encountered your posts here, but do not recall the Airsoft or Force on Force training that Cerebl. mentioned, so my input would be just not to permit your training to devolve into a "paint ball game."

I'm implying by that; as Cerebl. described as taking shots (multiple attackers) while sprinting, dodging, etc. Review in your mind and verify the next time you engage in that training if you are taking those shots because you have the fifteen, twelve, etc. supply of ammo.

I recommend taking the shot "when it is available," the target can be engaged, and foregoing a shot to random chance that it might strike.
You may not be doing that, so I apologise ahead of time, but I do know that under fire people will, and do just that. Shooting when you know you are going to strike the target is a deadly practice.

It is a fine line between shooting on the move, and filling the air with lead, and a skill beyond most of us.

There are trainers who post here; THR, that teach that skill, but again, the shooter must know if that skill is devolving into something else, and make certain that each and every time they practice, that they maintain the difference.

pax
May 19, 2007, 01:11 PM
James ~

My post was expanding on crebralfix' point, but not exclusive to it.

I've done a fair amount of FoF, and agree with you that there is a tendency to allow these sessions to devolve into something completely unrelated to the real world unless the trainer designs the exercise appropriately and keeps a close eye on the participants to prevent it.

Nevertheless.

Criminals like easy targets, not hard ones. Few criminals are even going to consider attacking unless they reasonably believe that the odds are overwhelmingly in their favor. That means that if you are young and healthy-looking, you have a correspondingly lower chance of being accosted by a lone criminal, and a higher chance of being attacked by a pack of criminals.

Whether that's a deciding factor in your choice of weapon or not, it is something that should be taken into account.

Incidentally, I take issue with many of your points listed in post #40; would you like to engage in a little back & forth about that?

pwrtool45 ~

If you haven't actually read the thread, you don't know whether that snide comment was called for or not, do you? It's kinda rude to just jump in and make such a comment in any case, and to make it without even reading the thread goes right past the "kinda" and into "really".

pax

pwrtool45
May 19, 2007, 01:26 PM
The intent was, of course, humorous and not offensive. If you interpreted my post otherwise I apologize.

As to not reading the thread, I was taking literacy license. I read the thread, all 54 posts of it, and it's shaping up like every other "revolver v/s auto" thread has. It's already degenerated into a tit-for-tat exchange of bulleted lists about how one platform is better/worse and boasts about platform superiority based on arbitrary criteria.

This need for a hierarchal structure of what's "best" is counter productive. I haven't seen anyone specifically enumerate how the perceived flaws each platform has is more or less a result of familiarity with said platform. Just about everything mentioned here is a non-issue for someone with even an armorer-level knowledge of their preferred design (auto or revolver).

foob
May 19, 2007, 02:58 PM
Try this unscientific experiement.
-One box of ammo for each gun,
-One DA revolver (in my case a 1917 Colt)
-One Autoloading Pistol (in my case a 1911)

Both guns (and magazine) empty, ammo in pocket, load and shoot 50 shots into a 6" bull at 25 feet as fast as possible. Which one is faster for you? For me it was the DA revolver.

How about you try a glock 17, and magazines not empty. Why the hell would magazines be empty?

For your scenario, doesn't matter if it is revolver or semi, you are screwed.

I think another advantage for daily use is the lack of magazine spring which could weaken over the time, which would then lead to malfunctions.
So far I've heard about this issue more as a theoretical aspect, has anyone more infos on how likely that is?

Not likely. Replace your springs if you use them a lot. Revolvers have springs that wear too...

The cylinder grab trick is pretty easily defeated- twist the gun violently while pulling the trigger, clockwise for S&Ws, counter-clockwise for Colt (just twist quickly in both directions sequentially if you have a bad memory).

When the cylinder is grabbed (or the slide), why the hell wouldn't the target do the same - violently twist the gun and pull it away...

Geister
May 19, 2007, 04:36 PM
We're talking about gunfighting here, not hunting. This is ignorance of gunfighting at its worst.

crebralfix,

We're not talking about gunfighting, we're talking about SELF-DEFENSE. We're not putting ourselves into Old West situations. If you are going to engage in a gun fight when you can flee, then you are NOT making your personal safety your top priority, which negates the purpose of carrying concealed.

Try some force on force scenarios with your Airsoft downloaded to what your carry gun holds (16 in my case, 6 for my 625). Then, run the scenario at full speed with one or two attackers. When everyone is sprinting, dodging and shooting, hit rates drop to almost stupid levels. Peripheral hits are difficult enough; try a head shot AND avoid getting hit at the same time.

Why in the world would anyone sprint, dodge, and shoot in a self-defense situation? This isn't a Lee Van Cleef movie. You're not a police officer, you're not taking out a gang on your own. You are trying to prevent deadly force to occur to you, and getting as far away from the situation as possible, if you can, sure beats having to shoot X rounds.

If you can sprint and dodge AWAY from the attackers, then why do you stop to shoot? You are engaging in a gun fight when you could be running away in defense of your life.

It's very different than just standing there on the range shooting at paper. Even sidestepping and shooting at non-moving paper does not really help. In fact, it's a whole different set of skills that must be practiced like any other martial art.

If you shoot the paper while in various self-defense situations, like standing up and drawing, sitting down and drawing, and so forth is as close as it's going to get. Shooting and dodging with a airgun, which isn't even your CCW, doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not really interested in the Sonny Chiba school of gunfighting.

The thing that a lot of folks don't seem to understand is that bad guys have friends too, and often travel in packs.

It's not that difficult to avoid crime-infested areas. Also, it's not that difficult to just carry a back-up weapon, which is a lot quicker than reloading your primary gun.

Vern Humphrey
May 19, 2007, 05:06 PM
John Farnham (in The Farnham Method of Defensive Handgunning) says "The most common stoppage in the revolver . . . [and] in autoloaders is running out of ammunition." That would indicate there is an advantage to a handgun with a large ammo capacity and a rapid reload capability.

James T Thomas
May 19, 2007, 05:49 PM
Hello Vern:

Yes, there is an advantage to large magazine capacity and a more rapid reload ability, no doubt!

However, did Mr. Farnham state whether that most common stoppage occurred at the shooting range, in self defense instances or was it an aggregate phenomenon?

As you know we have discussed this before, and in a defensive situation, the factor of "comfort reassuing blasting" is a contributor to the empty gun stoppages.

On topic; perhaps someone else has mentioned it, but the changing of grips is another advantage for the revolver. The after market grips are more versatile, and offer a significantly better grasp to those trying to fit the gun to their shooting hand.

Vern Humphrey
May 19, 2007, 05:53 PM
However, did Mr. Farnham state whether that most common stoppage occurred at the shooting range, in self defense instances or was it an aggregate phenomenon?
In self-defense or police situations. An example was the Miami FBI murders, where one agent was unable to reload his revolver fast enough.

the naked prophet
May 19, 2007, 06:17 PM
I can reload any of my carry semiautomatics faster than I can drop it and draw my BUG. I've practiced both extensively. I usually carry a Glock 19 with a Taurus 85 as backup, though at times I've carried my Taurus as primary with a Kel-Tec .380 as backup.

I should mention though, that I have had more reliability issues with my revolvers than my semiautomatics, including the Kel-Tec.

Though I am more accurate with my S&W model 10 with a 4" barrel, I can achieve faster hits with almost the same level of accuracy with my Glock 19.

I don't carry a revolver without a backup gun.

Remember that whole one-shot-stop thing? How it's a myth? Exactly how many mozambique drills can you do with a 5-shot snub?

I remember reading about a confrontation where two guys followed a couple while a van stopped and dropped off some guys in front of them. The guy turned around, did a mozambique on one attacker who was drawing a gun, did the same to the other attacker who was retrieving said gun from downed bad guy. The attackers from the van took off... but what if they hadn't? My Glock would still have 10 rounds left (15+1) and you're reloading.

I've fired several thousand dirty 9mm through my Glock 19 without cleaning - and it hasn't even slowed down, much less a jam. Try that with a revolver, and all but the loosest will lock up from buildup on the cylinder. Granted, this isn't much of a real-world consideration, but think what it implicates. The Glock has enough room for quite a bit of dirt or foreign material in it and it still runs, but get just a little dirt (or lint :uhoh:) between the cylinder and barrel, or between the cylinder and hand, and it's done for. If it won't run dirty, it's pretty close to not running when it's clean. Even my Kel-tec can be full of fluff and fuzz and run without a hitch.

That said, I do love my revolvers. A Glock may be bread and beans, a fine Browning Hi-Power or Colt 1911 may be pot roast and potatos, but a blued S&W revolver with a well-worn trigger is a fine aged T-bone steak cooked rare and served with a nice dry red wine.

And I can do better at 100 yards with some of my revolvers (can you say model 29?) than I can with some of my rifles.

crebralfix
May 19, 2007, 06:25 PM
First, this isn't a urination contest. We're having an interesting and lively discussion.

***

We're not talking about gunfighting, we're talking about SELF-DEFENSE.

We are talking about gun fighting. Attaching a PC label to killing does not change the nature of the activity. But if it makes you feel better, then we're talking about "self-defense".

I also never said to engage in a fight when it can be avoided. Avoidance is much cheaper and less painful. I highly recommend it, if only to avoid bruising and late night cold sweats.

We're not putting ourselves into Old West situations.

Oh, boy. There's that Hollywood "Wild West" again. That's classic, but I do agree. There's nothing "Old West" about two guys jumping a good guy for his wallet. However, there is certainly a state of fighting between the two sides. Let's leave that for late 19th century New York City, NY...which had higher murder rates than the wildest towns in the west.

Why in the world would anyone sprint, dodge, and shoot in a self-defense situation?

The objective is to stop or kill the bad guy (depending upon the situation) and go home with no extra holes. Our defenses, as good guys are: body armor, cover, movement, and attack. Awareness is another defense, but for the purposes of this discussion, the encounter has escalated past the point were avoidance is impossible. Fitness is another "defense" in that endurance through the entire fight may result in a win.

Just because you can move doesn't mean you can escape...especially if the encounter is at 10 feet or less. Most of us do not wear armor daily, so this is out. Cover, at short range, probably won't be much help considering the ease in which the goblin can get around it. That leaves movement and attacking. The goblins have the initiative if they're already closing. It may be impossible to deploy a handgun in time, so an unarmed engagement may occur. Hopefully, the defender may be able to create enough distance to allow for a shot. So, yeah, move as fast as possible and attack if possible.

If you can sprint and dodge AWAY from the attackers, then why do you stop to shoot?

Who said anything about stopping while shooting? Feel free to stand there and trade shots (hand, knife, gun, etc) with them. I'll send flowers to your funeral if I hear about it.

It's not that difficult to avoid crime-infested areas. Also, it's not that difficult to just carry a back-up weapon, which is a lot quicker than reloading your primary gun.

This is an assumption that crime only occurs in "bad" areas. There are many folks who live in very nice neighborhoods who become victims of crime in "safe" areas. I live in one of the most expensive areas of the country, yet the monthly crime report is disturbing.

I disagree that pulling a backup weapon is always faster than reloading. On particular example is if the fighting is at bad breath distance...going for another gun may not be the best choice.

I do agree that backup weapons are a good thing. I noticed many hand hits in FoF scenarios. The FBI noticed many hand and forearm wounds in their studies. Obviously, deploying a backup weapon is faster than searching around for a dropped handgun. It doesn't "tie" the defender to a certain spot, so one can continue moving.

***


* Long term storage: Less sensitivity to lube runoff.

Agreed, but what about grease?

* Long term storage: no spring compression fatigue nor magazine replacement schedule to follow.

Agreed, my safe gun is a revolver for precisely this reason.

* Long term storage: no plastic decomposition through age. Plastic is an organic chemical.

Maybe...would you happen to have some links regarding decomposition in Glocks, HKs, and so forth? I would like to learn more about this topic because it never occurred to me.

* The essential grip is established when grasped on a side lying gun. Guns are contrary mechanisms; grip one improperly; mismanage the trigger operation, or fail to maintain sight alignment -all "multitasking," and shots will stray

Not sure on this one...I figure a good grip is needed on any handgun. Though I do know a guy who had to shoot someone while grappling. The gun was upside down and he pulled the trigger with his pinky.

* Transfer safety bar mechanism. Suddenly grabbed handguns do get dropped.

Not all revolvers have this. Many semi-autos have a firing pin block to prevent this.

* No safety switch to fumble with in a crisis moment; especially by an unfamiliar family member

Totally agreed. Rapid deployment is imperative in very close encounters.

* Unmistakeable determination of loaded condition compared to pulling the slide partially back.

Disagree...you still have to look into the side or open the cylinder.

* A more elementary loading procedure. Now a magazine insertion is simple too, but many have been inserted by those in a desperate situation -backward!

I guess so. I never had that problem.

* Foolproof (reassembly); from cleaning. That is, are you sure you put the parts in correctly? Revolver? Close the cylinder and it is ready. The military has guns test fired before going on patrol, for just that reason.

* Functional, reguardless of orientation; upside down, sideways etc. You may, or your spouse, slip and fall retreating from a threat.

Agreed, though any decent semi-auto shouldn't have trouble. The SIG P220 fires upside down.

* Interferance resistant mechanism. No need for concern when firing close to a barrier or within a pocket

Hammers snag.

* Misfire remedy of another trigger stroke versus slide acivation; single action pistols

Many allow second strike capability, but lack the "reloading" of the chamber.




(comments mixed in the quoted section)

Many good points!

crebralfix
May 19, 2007, 06:27 PM
BTW, I have revolvers. I really like my 625 and my safe gun is a revolver. I may use them for defense one day, but hopefully not.

Vern Humphrey
May 19, 2007, 06:37 PM
First, this isn't a urination contest. We're having an interesting and lively discussion.

It is possible to win a urinating contest with a skunk -- but don't expect me to attend your victory dinner.
-- Uncle Herbivore

James T Thomas
May 19, 2007, 07:46 PM
I've enjoyed that interesting and lively discussion. You offer good, sound rebuffs.

Urinating contests? Never entered one. Did have a US Marine ask this US Army soldier why I didn't wash my hands after relieving myself; to which I replied because the Army taught us not to urinate on our hands of course.

crebralfix
May 19, 2007, 07:58 PM
Did have a US Marine ask this US Army soldier why I didn't wash my hands after relieving myself; to which I replied because the Army taught us not to urinate on our hands of course.

That's really funny!

2ndamd
May 20, 2007, 12:50 AM
Back to advantages of the revos:

I too started off with the almighty suto, only to discover the superior revolvers years later. I have been exclusively DA revolvers for over 7 years now.....hard to believe I survived with out all that extra ammo :)

Reason # 15 (????) The da revo can be shot with the weak hand thumb over lapping and behind the strong side thumb. The slide would hit it with a semi-auto.

#16 the revolver can also be used with two fingers on the trigger.

I have taught the elderly and infirm to shoot this way. I think one poster said they have trouble with the DA pull after XX rounds fired in a revo. Just use the index finger of your weak hand to help pull the weight. You can then put your weak hand thumb behind the other thumb to help control recoil too (see #15 above).

You mentioned in your original post about the revo being able to fire when pressed against a target. Great point! These things can go wrong real fast with the assailants real close. At 7 yrds or less someone can close that gap very fast.

crebralfix
May 20, 2007, 08:19 AM
#16 the revolver can also be used with two fingers on the trigger.

Another good one, especially for the infirm. I'll use that one in training.

DMZ
May 20, 2007, 09:45 AM
My wife and teenage daughter have both shot pistols and revolvers on a few occasions with me, but both are certainly novice shooters.

When I leave on a trip for a week or so what handgun do you think I leave for them for home security? (We live in a rural, ag area)

Yep, it's the Smith Mod 19. Simple, reliable, lethal.

koja48
May 20, 2007, 03:00 PM
Anything mechanical can fail. I own both fine wheelguns AND semis. I have tweaked, tuned, and developed loads for all, but my comfort level lies with one of my two 1911s (no real difference between the 2; I've just carried 1 of them for a lot longer - kinda like an attachment) . . . bottom line, for defense, carry that with which you are most proficient & comfortable. For a gun fight, always remember that a handgun is what you use to fight your way back to your REAL gun . . .

Geister
May 20, 2007, 06:36 PM
We are talking about gun fighting. Attaching a PC label to killing does not change the nature of the activity. But if it makes you feel better, then we're talking about "self-defense".

A PC label? Hahahahaha! You've been reading way too many militant magazines it seems. When you defend your life, it's called SELF-DEFENSE. You can use your CCW for situations in which the perp does NOT have a gun, like if he's welding a knife. That's NOT gunfighting.

Your PRIMARY focus needs to be defending your life, not engaging in a gunfight.

I also never said to engage in a fight when it can be avoided. Avoidance is much cheaper and less painful. I highly recommend it, if only to avoid bruising and late night cold sweats.

Then obviously you need to spend more time honing your situational awareness skills and less time playing "Shootout at the OK Corral" with airguns. If you put yourself in a situation in which you are up against a group of criminals, you already made a HUGE mistake by finding yourself in the wrong neighborhood. How many rounds of ammo you carry is not going to make up for that mistake.

In fact, the more ammo you shoot, the more it's going to cost to defend yourself in a court of law.

I'm not saying that everyone should get a revolver instead of an autoloader. I like autoloaders, especially with good cartridges such as the .45 ACP and the 10mm. But I don't like your suggestion that we need to train with SWAT tactics in order to carry concealed. In the vast majority of self-defense situations on record, all it took was two shots, three at the most, without any such tactics.

When you put so much emphasis on engaging in a gunfight, you start to lose focus on the fact that you have a CCW to defend your life against deadly force and to get out of the area.

Oh, boy. There's that Hollywood "Wild West" again. That's classic, but I do agree. There's nothing "Old West" about two guys jumping a good guy for his wallet.

And you need 15 rounds and SWAT tactics to engage two guys? Besides, if they get the jump on you, how are you going to pull your pistol in time? Once again, it goes back to situational awareness.

A few months ago this guy left his hotel room at 3 AM (dumb mistake) to go to the store or something. Right outside of the hotel room he is confronted by two guys for his wallet, one of whom welding an airgun that looked like a real gun that late at night. Now, the guy was carrying a .45 but the guys already had a jump on him and he couldn't pull the gun out discreetly. So he handed over his wallet, and when the guys walk away, they turn around again with the airgun. That's when the guy finally pulled out his .45 and started blasting away. He fired seven shots and only hit one guy twice, one bullet hitting the perp's arm.

Having more ammo really wouldn't have made a difference in this situation. The guy screwed up by leaving a hotel room that late at night. The darkness might have also affected his ability to see clearly because out of 7 rounds, he only hit twice. But he might not have had enough range time.

In a situation in which you can't really discreetly pull out your gun, your other best bet is to carry a "fake" wallet, which would include old credit and debit cards which are no longer any good and cannot even be used by the perps at all. Of course there's still the risk that they are going to harm you regardless.

The objective is to stop or kill the bad guy (depending upon the situation) and go home with no extra holes.

No, that's the second objective. The first objective is to pay attention to your surroundings and try to avoid the bad guy in the first place.

Our defenses, as good guys are: body armor, cover, movement, and attack.

Attack is not a defense. Maybe you meant counter-attack. The rest are defenses but will make it look like you put yourself into a shootout situation. In a court of law the jury is going to think of you more like a Charles Bronson wannabe than a law-abiding citizen minding his own business who had to use deadly force to prevent the commission of a violent crime.

Awareness is another defense, but for the purposes of this discussion, the encounter has escalated past the point were avoidance is impossible.

Sorry dude, you are not going to change the topic on me. Awareness is a lot more important than the rest of the defenses you have listed. I've read up a lot of self-defense shooting cases and what struck me is that for at least a lot if not most, the situation could have been avoided by the victim.

I remember reading a story recently about some kid in Texas who moved into an apartment next door to some low life, drug dealing criminals because the rent is cheap. Long story short, he ended up having to shoot one of the perps with a .223 when the guy starting to climb through his window with a
.38 Special. If he payed more attention to the place he was moving into and put more emphasis on his personal safety rather than the cost of rent, he never would have found himself in that position to begin with.

Just because you can move doesn't mean you can escape...especially if the encounter is at 10 feet or less.

If the encounter is ten feet or less more than likely you won't be able to discreeting pull out your firearm.

Who said anything about stopping while shooting? Feel free to stand there and trade shots (hand, knife, gun, etc) with them.

I don't know very many people who can run full-speed in the other direction while looking behind, shooting, and making hits in at the same time. This leads into the spray and pray mentality.

I'll send flowers to your funeral if I hear about it.

Seeing that I put more emphasis on AVOIDING confrontations and bad neighborhoods whereas you've ignored it for the most part, I think my chances are survival are higher than yours.

No matter how many rounds of ammo is in your gun, your chances are survival are still a lot less than if you had avoided the situation to begin with.

This is an assumption that crime only occurs in "bad" areas.

I've never said that crime only occurs in bad areas; don't put words in my mouth. In fact, from personal experience I know that it doesn't. But from the same personal experience I know that criminals act a lot more discreetly in good neighborhoods. In good neighborhoods, vehicle break-ins are far more common than upfront "give me your wallet" confrontations. Also, you can usually tell if someone's up to no good just by their appearance and mannerisms. If I see a WASP in a Polo shirt, nice slacks, a cell phone clipped to his belt, Alden shoes, and driving a BMW, I doubt the guy is going to try and rob me.

In good neighborhoods, there is a less likely chance you will encounter a roaming street gang than in a bad neighborhood.

There are many folks who live in very nice neighborhoods who become victims of crime in "safe" areas.

Because they weren't paying any attention to their surroundings or the people around them.

I disagree that pulling a backup weapon is always faster than reloading. On particular example is if the fighting is at bad breath distance...going for another gun may not be the best choice.

If you have to reload AT ALL, you are in a terrible situation that you could have probably avoided. If you need to reload at bad breath distance, then you are a worthless shot and need more firearms practice before you carry that gun again.

The vast majority of reported self-defense shootings ended with only two shots, no more than three, so in the vast majority of situations the higher capacity of an autoloader did not make a difference.

Texshooter
May 20, 2007, 10:08 PM
I have big hands but short fingers.

Wheelies fit me better, for the most part.

They chamber some honking calibers, oh yeah.

They look good. (Not that this is a factor in protecting one's way of life.)

TT
May 21, 2007, 12:49 PM
foob: When the cylinder is grabbed (or the slide), why the hell wouldn't the target do the same - violently twist the gun and pull it away...

My reply was to a post detailing how a revolver could be prevented from cycling by grabbing the cylinder, in the context of a revolver vs. auto debate- it was not a post on generalized handgun retention so your observation is not really relevant to the discussion.

foob
May 21, 2007, 12:53 PM
My reply was to a post detailing how a revolver could be prevented from cycling by grabbing the cylinder, in the context of a revolver vs. auto debate- it was not a post on generalized handgun retention so your observation is not really relevant to the discussion.

But the same tactic could be used with a semi-auto. I'm not sure what's the point of saying grabbing the cylinder can be overcome but grabbing a slide can't be.

TonyB
May 21, 2007, 01:01 PM
1)used revolvers can be had cheap......and still work!
2)people at the range tend to "under estimate" you.....especially in the shooting "games"..
3)if you pcoket carry an auto,lint and dirt may be an issue,not so much w/ a revo.Plus you can generally use less lube ,so your pants won't stain.

I say carry what YOU find reliable and can shoot the best.....I carry a revo 99.9% of the time.But I am broadening my horizons....Today I am actually carrying an auto(Taurus pt111,in front pocket)It feels huge compared to my 642.....but by the end of the day,I'll be used to it.

BoneDigger
May 21, 2007, 01:40 PM
On my hip, as we speak, is a Smith and Wesson Model 686 with a 2.5 inch barrel. It is loaded with .357 hollowpoint ammunition. I am a better shot with a wheel gun than I am with an autoloader for some reason. I shoot VERY well with the 686.

I sometimes carry my PT145, and it has 11 rounds of .45 ACP. I seriously doubt I would ever need more than one or two bullets, but I at least have 6. If I ever get into gang warfare, I'll probably go ahead and buy a 9mm with 16 or 17 rounds. Until then, I feel perfectly safe with a six shot revolver. In fact, I also feel safe with my 5 shot 642 Airweight.

I do not believe that an automatic has to be prone to failure. If you have used your gun extensively at the range, and feel confident in it, by all means carry it. I just happen to SHOOT revolvers better.

It all comes down to "spray and pray" or hit what you are shooting at. I prefer the latter.

Todd

TT
May 22, 2007, 12:15 PM
foob: I'm not sure what's the point of saying grabbing the cylinder can be overcome but grabbing a slide can't be.

I didn’t say that. I guess I didn’t make my point clear- I was only demonstrating how the cylinder grab can be defeated- I was not commenting on anything involving autos. I’m sure the ‘grab slide, push out of battery’ trick can be defeated as well.

Rexster
May 22, 2007, 08:13 PM
TT is correct! When the BG grabs the cylinder, the GG violently turns the gun, and it goes bang. With an S&W, in the right hand, it is a palm-up twist. With a Colt in the left hand, palm-up. Adjust accordingly for other hands/guns. If the BG is holding tightly enough onto both cylinder and frame, this may not work. Which is why I carry small fixed-blade knives, and also practice other retention stuff. Regarding the larger issue, there are pluses and minuses to both weapon systems. I like and use both, but prefer revolvers and shoot a GP100 or K/L-frame S&W better than anything else out there. My on-duty sidearm, a SIG P229R DAK, is as good as anything at 5 to 10 yards, and the sixgun is better for me at longer range and for close-up point-shooting. Last night, on a felony car stop, I slipped the GP100 from its case, and had it in my hand, while the SIG remained holstered, ready for action if I needed more than six rounds. Life is good. Y'all stay safe.

Wire
May 22, 2007, 11:47 PM
One of my most embarrasing was to fire a 380 round in my 9mm!

Oh, yeah. Went to the range a few years ago with my brother. We shared a lane. He had a Glock 23, I had a Glock 19. I managed to load and fire a 9mm round out of his pistol. Oops.

jonsidneyb
May 23, 2007, 05:17 AM
I will not be found without a Centenial revolver for my left hand.

For the right hand it will either be an Auto Loader or a 3inch J-Frame .357. I can conceal the 3 inch revolver much better than the Auto but if I have more than a T-Shirt on it is the Auto I carry for the right hand.

I think the revolver has advantages and the auto has advantages so I always have both.

Ok,

I will explain the reasons now but I can be long winded so forgive me.

After I was involved in my shooting, the department of corrections told me that they guys in jail were saying their buddies were going to get me. Well nothing ever happened but I started becoming extra vigilant.

When I would come home I would have the autoloader in hand (rural area) but as I got close to the house, I would switch to revolver before I past the srubs and got onto the front porch wich has walls on three sides and if something happened it would be close quarters.

The gun I would change over to was a 3 inch .357 J-Frame. My reasoning is this.

Reason No1 for a revolver is use in contact distance activity, if anything contacts the slide of a automatic, a misfeed can occur. This will not happen with a revolver. If you are wrestling arouind with a gun, the gun may have to be shot inverted and limp wristed, this can cause a failure to feed at times.
If I am going to be wrestling with someone while trying to use a handgun, the revolver seems more positive for me. / Reason No2/ Also the bad primer does happen once in awhile, rare but it does happen. With a revolver, it goes to the next cartridge, its hard to clear a a gun if you are wresting around with someone..

Reason No3. This applies to small bobbed and concealed hammer revolvers. Put a small automatic in your front pocket. Ok, now get it out quickly. It's actually hard to do. Now try this with a small revolver, your hand gets around the grip many times easier.

Reason No4. Sometimes an auto is more concealable because it is flatter, but sometimes a revolver is more concealable because it is rounder. Try sticking a small auto in pocket holster in front pocket, often you can tell what it is. Try a Centenial revolver in front pockets of the pants with a proper pocket holster, it does not look like a gun.

Reason No5. Inside the pants works well if you have as little as a blousy shirt, under a T-shirt, thats a different matter. bob the hammer and put a hip grip on it. You can conceal a 3 inch L-frame like that if you wanted to. I would rather carry a J-frame like that but a revolver with hip-grip vanishes under even a fairly tight T-shirt.

Reason No6. Jacket pockets. This is where the Centenial shines. In pants pocket a steel Centenial is fine since the wieght is close to the body. In jacket pockets you want one of the lightweights. I am content with the 442 for this. If you sence trouble, slip your hand into your jacket pocket. If you end up in trouble, the shot from the gun already in hand is much faster than drawing the auto loader from your hip. With the Centenial, you can shoot right through the pocket if you have to. When I was involved in my shooting, a person just before had a gun pointed at him while he had his hands in his pockets. If he had a Centenial he could have been pointing right back without the criminal ever knowing.

Reasn No7. Weak hand backup. most Automatics are not set up for use in the left hand with only one hand available it can be very difficult. The revolver as long as you do not need to reload is more friendly to the left hand if only using one hand. If someone is going to grap you while you have a gun out, it is likely to be the gun arm. If you are having trouble keeping control of the gun arm, you might be able to draw your small lefty revolver and blow the guy off of your gun arm (again wrestling with a gun, this is revolver country). Also when firing from cover the shooting hand can easily get hit meaning you need a gun for the left hand. The left hand gun can also act as a backup for your right handed gun. It is faster to draw your left hand gun, transer to right hand than to reload your main gun.

Ok,,, those are most of my reasons to have both a revolver and an automatic if you do end up needing a gun on the street. The automatic does have some advantages, the revolver has others. Both can deliver accurate fire, both have enough energy against two legged targets but there are different. If you have both, you can play to the advantages they have over each other.

For sometime after my shooting, I carried a auto on the right hip instead of behind the hip like I usually prefer, behind the hip carried a 3-inch .357 J-frame. In the jacket pockets I had airweight Centenials in each jacket pocket. I think .38 special is a little light but still in the ball park. If when paranoid while walking after the shooting, hands were in the pockets. It would have looked bad for me to be fondling the Auto on the Hip if I sensed trouble but none was there. I did consider the full sized auto to be the main gun and would draw if first if I thought I had time to do that unless I was already at contact distance, then I would go for the revolver.

As time went by and nothing happend, I started reducing my load. I always have a Centenial revolver where my left hand can get to it. One is either in a left jacket pocket or left pants pocket. Behind the right him is a full sized auto unless its summer, and I am only wearing a T-shirt. Then I resort the a hip gripped revolver behind the hip.

pax
May 23, 2007, 10:33 AM
* Unmistakeable determination of loaded condition compared to pulling the slide partially back.

This is utterly & completely false -- see http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=279035

Jim, did you get my email?

pax

James T Thomas
May 23, 2007, 05:29 PM
Pax:

I received your email, and thank you for the reply.

I'm having difficulty percieving where you disagree with me on it being a more certainty to determine the unloaded condition of the revolver versus the semiauto.

Here is what I've encountered Pax. Even in dim light, swinging out the cylinder and examining it for rounds is almost -almost unmistakeable.
You can obviously see if there is a round in one of the chambers. It's right there in front of your face.

While, with the semiauto, you must hold it up or down to get a more direct view of the chamber, while also maintaining draw on the slide. It is a minor struggle not to draw the slide fully to the rear, in many cases -locking it, and then releasing it. It also is a challenge to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction while doing so.

In addition, some chambers are "deep;" where the round is down in there "hiding" from view.

I always made the habit of inserting my pinky in to make sure.

That's my observation Pax.

Perhaps I should have chosen another description than unmistakeable.

mashaffer
May 23, 2007, 06:08 PM
Hmmm... if the bad guy is close enough to grab the gun it seems like inducing a bit of testicular torsion via. your right foot might be an effective way to render your gun operable. Just a though.

mike

pax
May 23, 2007, 06:12 PM
Jim ~

Sorry for sounding so abrupt in my previous post. The thing is, this is a major safety issue. It's really a bad idea to be telling people that it's readily obvious whether or not a revolver is loaded, because that kind of thinking leads to deadly complacency.

Despite common myth, you cannot reliably tell whether a revolver is loaded simply by looking at it while the cylinder is closed. The ammunition is not visible in all revolvers when the cylinder is closed; some revolvers obscure the view of every chamber. Nor is all possible ammunition visible in any partly-loaded revolver; the round immediately under the hammer will always be invisible, as will the round in the bottommost chamber in most cases.

Nor is it enough simply to swing out the cylinder and casually glance to confirm what you already know before swinging it closed again.

Photo below. It's unloaded, right?


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=52797&d=1170864761

Quick glance, sure appears unloaded.




But take a closer and more careful look ...

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=52796&d=1170864744

... and there's a live round in it.




The photos do not cheat. The gun is every bit as loaded in the first picture as it is in the second picture, the light is good, and the angle is the same. The only difference is that the gun is slightly closer to the camera, and the cylinder is swung out a bit more.

This really isn't almost unmistakable. It is, in actual fact, a fairly common mistake that people make. Even experienced shooters make this mistake.

Whether you have a semi or a revolver, whether it's in full daylight or obscured shadows, it is not enough to trust your eyeballs and a casual glance. You have to really look, and you have to touch your fingers to the spots where the holes should be (count the chambers of the revolver; probe the chamber and the magwell of the semi-auto). Don't trust eyeballs alone because eyeballs can lie. That's the point.

Checking to see if a gun has a live round in it is deadly serious business. There is no place for casual complacency in it ... no matter what kind of gun you prefer to shoot.

pax

(PS Pretty sure you know all the above, as an experienced shooter. But there are always newcomers here too, and they may not know ...)

Hawk
May 23, 2007, 07:37 PM
I wouldn't even be rattling about in the digital revolver realm here but for several recent purchases and the aid of one Fuff. I’ve found them (revolvers) to be accurate, nice looking, excellent custodians of brass and generally fun.

However, certain of the revolver's advantages stem directly from assertions of disadvantages of semi-autos that might not be the case, such as:

Magazine spring fatigue. A number of us curmudgeons don’t believe there is such a thing or at least have never seen it. Springs wear from cycling, not compression.

Limp wrist: No such thing in a proper semi. Admittedly, this is not a majority view but if my grip is so compromised as to malf my semi, I seriously doubt I could put a revolver round into the desired zip code similarly disabled.

I'm with Pax on the check for loaded issue: I only have one revolver with recessed chambers and it's pretty stealth with the cylinder closed. Although possibly a matter of being more familiar with semis, I can't see swinging out a cylinder being easier than a press check. A press check might bobble a round; swinging out the whole barn door might bobble six rounds.

Not all semis came from the same litter. If a safety distresses you, finding one without is easy. Finding one without plastic is easy; with or without a drop safety - piece of cake. Mine has a manual safety and polymer with no drop safety. My wife would say that's because I like to annoy the maximum number of people with the fewest number of handguns. There is no truth to that charge.

A semi is no more sensitive to orientation than a wheelgun, which is to say, it isn't, or at least shouldn't. If it is, it's broken, fix it.

Whether one is better off with an assailant grabbing a cylinder or a slide I suspect is like debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. If somebody else has hold of your weapon, stuff is sufficiently bagged that your choice of handgun brand and configuration is probably secondary to most other things you might be considering at that moment.

James T Thomas
May 23, 2007, 07:54 PM
Pax:

Your post is a correct one. And the pictures are worth a thousand words.

I think the adjective casual is the key word.

I constantly have to remind myself not to be casual when handling firearms.

Thanks.
Jim

Shawn Michael
May 24, 2007, 06:12 AM
But in the first photo the cyinder is not (as you state) swung out...do the cylinder often stick?

While I think it is a slam dunk that revovlers are easier to ID if loaded, it is a much bigger problem with the revolver is "is it empty" "How many shots did I fire, in all the excitment I lost count" In my list of pros for autos, that is on of the BIG ones....I know when the auto is empty!

I really enjoy the thread, my appreciation to all responder

MrPhil
May 24, 2007, 09:27 AM
I own 12 revolvers and 4 semi's. I shoot a couple thousand rounds a month, mostly revolvers (only DA, more accurate for me). I "play games", revolver and semi. I shoot both well, under pressure. I carry a semi. Comparably sized/weighted revolvers (j-frame snubs) are too hard to shoot well.

You guys need to get out more.

pax
May 24, 2007, 09:42 PM
But in the first photo the cyinder is not (as you state) swung out...do the cylinder often stick?


Shawn,

It's actually not an uncommon mistake. Two possibilities

1) As shown in the first picture, the cylinder is not actually swung out alllll the way. Maybe the shooter did swing it out, but held the gun so that gravity swung it back in slightly before the shooter looked down. Maybe it just didn't open all the way for whatever reason (fingers in the way? no lube on the crane?)

2) The other common reason for not seeing all the rounds is that the shooter's thumb doesn't always get moved to the backstrap and instead obstructs a clear view of every chamber. If the shooter is not committed to LOOKING -- carefully -- at every single hole, it can and does happen.

3) Most common of all is simply not looking, and assuming that the rounds were all dumped when the ejector rod was struck.

Don't believe me?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=253509 (post #1, #22, #29)
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=200792 (post #3, #7, #26)

Probably more on similar threads.

pax

crebralfix
May 25, 2007, 07:57 AM
Though one can certainly just look into the cylinder area FROM EACH SIDE to determine if a revolver is loaded, courtesy (and range rules) demand that the cylinder be opened. If we stay in the habit of opening the action on all our guns when handling them, nothing can go bang. Put another way: nobody is going to get worried if they see you handing a revolver with the cylinder out.

johndoe1027
May 25, 2007, 09:01 AM
Ok so I had to read this whole thread just to ask a stupid question (to make sure no one else already brought it up). I do not need to argue revo vs semi, I am carrying a 38 snub today and tomorrow I might be carrying my polymer 9mm semi. I am good with both and trust my life with both. That being said, when something goes bump in the night and I can't get to the shotty fast enough (which are better than semis or wheelguns :neener:) I grab the semi. 12 rounds vs 5 rounds is a big difference.

I would also like to reiterate, in a SD situation you SHOULD NOT empty the mag as fast as you can while running (unless you are very very very good at that). Take the shots that you are more comfortable with to avoid a bunch of dead innocent people and property damage. I think we all understand that but I just wanted to make sure.

Anyway, here's the question I wanted to ask the OP from post #1.
My personal choice is a SW Military and Police 8 shot .357 revovler with a streamlight on the bottom rail. With California high cap ban and practice with moonclips getting faster and faster, I feel pretty good.

Now maybe I'm a big dumb noob, but I've never seen a 357 setup for moonclips. They always use speed loaders. Maybe I'm just being a terminology nazi but there is a big difference. Of course I was corrected on that same thing here (THR) but that was before I ever had either, not after I practiced a lot with them...

Just wondering how much work that took and if the moonclips are custom made.

Hawk
May 25, 2007, 09:33 AM
I've never seen a 357 setup for moonclips.

http://www.moonclips.com/machine.htm

Enjoy.

crebralfix
May 25, 2007, 09:58 AM
Take a look at the Smith & Wesson 327 TRR8 and the Registered Magnum.

The Registered Magnum is one sweet piece...only $1200....

But, it comes with a PC trigger, cylinder cut for moonclips, 8x357 magnum capacity, and chamfered cylinders. Oh, and it looks great with that 3.5" barrel and cut lug.

I would also like to reiterate, in a SD situation you SHOULD NOT empty the mag as fast as you can while running (unless you are very very very good at that).

This is why we practice this skill--learning to run while keeping your hips level isn't hard, but remembering to do it is. It's also why point shooting practice inside 15 feet from any direction is important. If you never practice anything but "stand and deliver" -- guess what? You're going to either stand and deliver and probably take some rounds or you may just miss while running around. Practice sideways, upside down, one handed, two handed, weak hand, strong hand, while walking, crawling, jumping, and running.

For most people, they're adept at the first skill and only so-so with firing with only their weak hand. Usually, I get them trained up there first. This is easy to do at the range....just switch hands every mag/cylinder. After while, you'll notice no difference in your performance.

Shawn Michael
May 25, 2007, 05:13 PM
In the decision of what to train with as my primary pistol (I like to keep it simple and have only a few firearms) having 8 shots and moon clips on a light revolver that I can shoot really well that has a rail for a light is a pretty great package that IMO takes the best of everything (power, decent capacity, idiot (me) proof simplicity and reliablity, ammo flexability) The moon clips just seem to fall right in the cylinder (in the dark even, and they stay together in my pocket.

If not for getting to shoot the TRR8 and the 686+ I might have been more inclined to get a USP or an XD with the crappy calif 10 shot mag. Most of the younger guys I know (myself included) think a revo is not even on the radar screen for SD

crebralfix
May 26, 2007, 12:19 AM
Second vote for a S&W 327 TRR8! It's soft shooting and has lots of features.

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