Is the .40S&W the best round out there for self defense?

[Alan Fud]

Been living in southern Florida for the past several years where temps rarely hit the 70's even in the cold of winter. Nobody wears a coat down here. Maybe a sweater in the 'cold' of winter but that's about it.

Under these conditions, I've come to view the .45ACP as the best self defense round.

I'm going to be moving to the hills of PA before the year is out and now I have to take winter and heavy coats into consideration. Based on what I've read here, on other sites and in magazines, the 9mm penetrates better than the .45ACP and might be a better choice for self defense in the winter months up there.

That being the case, I was wondering if the .40S&W would be the best round to go with independent of what people might be wearing -- not as good as the .45ACP in the summer or the 9mm in the winter but the best overall. After all, it's bigger than the 9mm and faster than the .45ACP.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[Tamara]

I don't think there'd be a dime's worth of difference amongst the three, except that a .40 or .45 will make a slightly larger hole than 9mm if the hollowpoint clogs with winter coat.

[only1asterisk]

I concur with Tamara,

A good load in any of the 3 plus 10mm, 45 LC, 44 Magnum, 357 Sig or Magnum, 38 Super, 9x23 Win or any other round that good self-defense ammo is loaded for. Some of the above have their faults, but when properly loaded (and directed) effectiveness is not among them.

Dave

[makdaddy03]

What Tamara said.:)

[Shake]

:what:

Shake ducking for cover. . .

[arinvolvo]

After expansion, the circumference difference become negligible...all of those rounds are acceptable, and effective defense rounds...with 9mm being my personal favorite:evil:

[tbeb]

For self defense, the 9mm and .357 Sig and .40 Smith & Wesson and & 45 ACP are about equal. Take your pick.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's Alan, and Other Member's-

I'm one that believes that the time-tested .45ACP
is a better man stopper than the .40 S&W. Lets
face it, any handgun caliber will stop a perp stone
cold dead in his tracks with proper shot placement; but
NO handgun caliber is a one-shot, stop 'em all certainty!
Since its inception by the U.S. Military, the vunderable
'ole .45 ACP has killed more soul's than the .40 S&W
ever will. I would suspect that the 9m/m has also made
a name for its-self; since its a NATO cartridge, and is
available virtually world-wide?:D :) :uhoh:

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[agtman]

"***now I have to take winter and heavy coats into consideration."


For consistent penetration, even where the HP clogs up with intervening material, like sweaters, leather, denim, or the heavy bulk of cold-weather coats or, especially, layered combinations of any of these, the 10mm Auto wins hands down.

In factory 10mm ammo, you can find quality HPs launched at sufficiently warm velocities to assure penetration to vital organs through the kind of winter clothing you might expect to encounter.

The 180gn Gold Dot HP loads, from ProLoad or Georgia Arms, are excellent. Hornady offers a 10mm/180gn XTP-HP @ 1180fps, which is a deeply penetrating round. Some regard this as a "hunting" load only, but against the sort of heavy, thick materials used in winter gear, it probably would be just the thing. Texas Ammo uses the 200gn XTP-HP in it's 10mm load (@1250fps/694fpe).

Interestingly, Bill Wilson strongly recommends Hornady's .45acp loads, using the XTP-HPs, for just this reason - penetration thru the clothing of assailants in cold-weather climates.

HTH. :)

[Pumpkinheaver]

Any of the three you mentioned will work. If you have a .45 and can shoot it well there is no reason to switch to a smaller caliber. Look at it this way, if you bust someone with your .45 and the hollow point should plug up you are still making a .45 cal hole in them!

[Marko Kloos]

I think the difference in terminal ballistics between a good 9mm +P or +P+ load and most .40 loads is minimal, so the 9mm gets the nod from me most of the time. It's easier on the gun and the shooter, allows for faster shot recovery, and lets you practice a lot more due to much lower ammo costs.

[stevelyn]

I believe the added clothing you will encounter in a PA winter will have negligible effect on the effectiveness of quality SD ammo. Consider that the Alaska State Troopers and the vast majority of police departments in Alaska use the .40 S&W and the rest .45 ACP, from one make of launcher or another (Glocks being most prevalent) have already considered the clothing aspect. Most of the people we contact during winter are wearing heavy stuff like Refrigiwear, Mustang Suits, and Carhartt workwear.
I personally think your .45 will work just fine.

[priv8ter]

I agree with everyone else...I feel anything from 9mm should be an effective self-defense tool. If you are REALLY worried about penetration from the .45...you can look into carrying hardball. That's what I carry.

But, if you are trying to rationalize a reason to buy a gun in .40 S&W, don't let me talk you out of it. :evil:

[benewton]

There were some questions regarding the 9mm capability countering Russians in winter dress, at least as seen by the german army in the WW 2.

I'd stay with the .45 ACP, since, as has been said, you get a .45" hold, regardless, and that appears to have worked well many times in the past.

But then, I use the USPc in the spring, fall and summer, in .40, but only because the .45 wasn't around when I got mine. In the winter, I've an old Colt DS, in .38 Special, because I've a hard enough time finding the brass in the back yard grass in the summer, shoot year round, and already know I don't want to even try it in winter!

[10-Ring]

Using modern defensive ammo, in a reliable firearm, & shooter getting sufficient practice, any one of the 3 calibers would be fine. My preference is w/ the all weather 45 acp tho :D

[Gerald McDonald]

Wait a minute, didnt I read somewhere on these forums just a short while ago that the 45 acp just bounces of of wool coats, or was it denim. Wheres old Wild Romanian when you need the hard facts.

[Ian11]

Well, its the choice for me. But I also like 9mm and .45 too. I'm not trying to be diplomatic. Ammo choice and shot placement is far more important as long as you're shooting a handgun 9mm and up.

[Rob96]

Where at in PA are you moving to FUD? For me I shoot the 45 better than the 40 so the 45 is better for me.

[redneck2]

true story...

(as Mr. redneck2 ducks for cover.....)

have a good friend who worked for a hospital in Gary, IN (weather similar to PA).

Sez they had a guy that got shot 7 times with a 9mm. Staggered 2 blocks to the hospital and fell into the ER. The cops followed the blood trail to the crime scene to pick up the shell casings.

He was discharged 3 days later. Dunno what the rounds were, but probably FMJ's. Obviously, all bullets hit non-vital areas.......but still..... :uhoh:

He sold his 9 the next day and got a .45.

I have another acquaintance that was in the wrong place at the wrong time...armed robbery. Perp made the two guys lay on the floor and shot them in the back of the head. First guy got hit twice and died instantly. My acquaintenace (throught the grace of God) was luckier. He was hit at an angle, and the bullet glanced and ran under his scalp and lodged behind his ear. He still has some neurological problems, but he's back at work and alive.

So.....I'd carry (actually I do carry) a hot .45acp......or preferably a 10mm. 9's are fun and easy to shoot...but then, so are .22's.

The 9mm fans always talk about follow-up shots. Guess that's OK, but I've seen what a 10mm will do, and I suspect the necessity for follow-up shots would be minimal.

If anybody thinks a 9mm is even close to a cranked up 10mm, then they've never shot a hot 10. And, yes, I've shot thousands of rounds of 9mm, and my house gun is a Glock 20...YMMV.

To answer the question....the 40 is just a downsized 10mm. It'd beat a 9 hands down. However, if you're a Hallmark kind of person and "Care enough to send the very best"..go 10..good luck.

[MJRW]

I love story's like rednecks. The kind of thing that always happens "to a friend." Never get to hear from the person themselves that say "I shot someone with a 9mm 148 times and they asked if they'd been shot. Next day I bought a .454."

[English John]

All you're going to hear is everybody's personal recommendation which is fine, for them. ("If you don't carry my personal choice you're gonna die.") Everything works, everything fails. Do your homework, pick what works for YOU in YOUR situation. When I worked the street I carried a .45, but other deputies carried 9MMs, .40s, one carried a .357, and we all did the same job.

The bullet does the job, the handgun is only a bullet launcher, YOU are the weapon. Practice, practice, practice, it's bullet placement that counts. The flames may now begin........

[russlate]

I made my mind up 25 years ago. NO-one had bad stuff to say on the 41. They even liked the way it did in LSW form. Caliber, bullet weight, velocity, the 41 made everyone happy
except a few wimps. ( Today I'm a wimp too! )

Latest I heard the Winchester Silvertiip 175 gr. out of the 4" 41 mag was still king of the jello killers. Caused more disruption in ballistic gelatin tests than ANY other load. CCI aluminum cased Blazers don't appear to be loaded that heavily, so that's what I shoot today.

But that Silvertip stuff kicks more than I want to handle today with only limited practice. 30 years ago I managed to shoot Expert with full power 210 grain loads in my Model 58's and ignored the bleeding from the web of my hand. The 3/4 loaded Silvertip was for plinking.

25 years ago, I checked out the Jello Junkies, the morgue monsters, and the mugwhumps ( those are the guys with their mug on one side of the fence and their whumps on the other ).

Next time I hit town I'm buying another box of the CCI Blazers. And more HKS speedloaders. Til then, I'll continue to use an empty 3lb. coffee can to hold the fifteen filled speedloaders. :D

Oh yeah. I also got a Mod 28 for sub- caliber practice with 125 grain 357 mags. :neener: And 8 or ten speedloades. And cause I never could handle the 44 maggie in a 4" gun, I now have a Winchester Trapper in that caliber. :neener:

[Jeff]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a piece of heavy, tough clothing that stops a .45 acp (mythical idea) or slows it down considerably, is still going to force the projectile's dump of all of its energy into the target, just like a hollow point does inside the first 6 to 8 inches of tissue. Different type of damage, but the energy is still there.

This is what would be termed knockdown power.

[Alan Fud]

Okay, all of you convinced me to stick with my Para Tac-Four (14 rounds of .45ACP) for the winter carry and my Para Companion (8 rounds of .45ACP) for summer carry ...
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=339320 Posted by priv8ter (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27785#post338494): ... if you are trying to rationalize a reason to buy a gun in .40 S&W, don't let me talk you out of it ... Nope. Not planning on buying any new guns -- got a couple of full-size .40S&W and a couple of compact .40S&W as well which would carry nicely under a winter coat. Was just trying to decide what was the best caliber to be armed with. Posted by agtman (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27785#post338319): ... For consistent penetration, even where the HP clogs up with intervening material, like sweaters, leather, denim, or the heavy bulk of cold-weather coats or, especially, layered combinations of any of these, the 10mm Auto wins hands down ... Not aware of any compact or sub-compact 10mm's and my S&W 1006 with it's 5" barrel is too big to effectively conceal. Posted by Rob96 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27785#post338763): ... Where at in PA are you moving to FUD? ... Not far from you Rob ... right at the intersection of PA-100 and I-78/US-22. :)

[DigMe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a piece of heavy, tough clothing that stops a .45 acp (mythical idea) or slows it down considerably, is still going to force the projectile's dump of all of its energy into the target,

Talk about mythical ideas! Much of the energy of a bullet goes into other things besides the target. A LOT of energy is spent in deforming the bullet for one thing. A good example of this is shooting a solid object. For instance, you shoot a metal target with a projectile that has 500 ft/lbs of energy and it goes plink and moves a bit. However if you go up to that same target with say, a claw hammer and whack it you could cause it to move considerably more. Did you hit it with 500 ft/lbs of energy? Most likely not! Theoretically that bullet should have knocked the crap out of that target...so what happened?

"Knock down power" and "energy dump" are overrated and grossly misunderstood ideas. Remember the Hollywood shootout? Those guys were covered in body armor and bullets were just nothing against them. There was no knocking down occurring until that first guy got shot in the unprotected spinal column (or brain or wherever he got shot that dropped him like a sack of potatoes). If the idea that you are conveying of this effective knockdown power were true then those guys would have been knocked down more than once from all that energy "dumping" into them.

brad cook

Edit: For what it's worth, I was told by a man (I can't remember who for the life of me) who was wearing many layers of flannel, a light jacket and a Carhart jacket (thick stuff) on top. He was shot (accidentally) in the shoulder by a .45 and after getting all those layers off was able to pull the round out by himself because it was only lightly imbedded.

[agtman]

"Not aware of any compact or sub-compact 10mm's ..."


Well, there's the Glock 29, which is the same size as the .45acp G-30. It's light-weight polymer makes it extremely portable, and it's got 10+1 capacity. It's also very accurate based on the posts from owners here and over on GT's 10Ring. You might want to do a Search. Assuming the Glock's grip profile on the 29/30 models works for you, it's the ideal "compact" powerhouse.

I know what you mean about the S&W 1006, especially in a mostly-hot-weather state. In a state with some hot periods but where mostly milder-to-cold weather can be expected, the larger all-steel guns become less of a chore to conceal. But they do get heavy if carried all day everyday, unless you've chosen carefully for the right belt & holster combo, or have a very well-fitted shoulder holster.

[Erik]

Another "all three and the 10 will serve you well, but the .45acp will serve you best when they don't expand" comment.

[Jeff]

Brad Cook,

Those are interesting ideas and I guess a fair amount of the energy would be spent in deforming the projectile.

However, there appears to be something you are missing. The existence of a deformed projectile or other marred or damaged impact object would be evidence of the target taking an extreme hit with said impact object or projectile.

If I get into a fight with an assailant wielding a 2x4 and he smacks me in the arm with it, regardless if I'm bare-armed or am wearing three shirts and two jackets I'm still going to absorb a tremendous amount of energy. If the force of the blow is great enough to break the 2x4 in half, then my arm has absorbed a tremendous amount of energy-- as long as my arm is motionless, and not part of the kinetic equation. This would be the scenario of a bad guy getting hit with a slug.

Are you trying to tell me that if a BG is wearing a bullet-proof vest, and is hit with a 230 grain ball .45 at a close, combat distance, he will not go down? I find that hard to believe.

Some may believe that foot lbs of energy is foot lbs of energy, so it doesn't matter if the projectile is a .45 ball or a .223 at a greater distance, as long as the energies are the same. Well, you already proved why this isn't the case-- why mere foot lbs alone can't decide the knockdown power. It's because a smaller, faster bullet is going to deform more, and more of that energy is going to be expended into that deformation, rather than a larger, slower-moving projectile.

Thus, your hammer is going to move the metal target more. But the metal target is suffering greater damage with the bullet plinking it.

[Rob96]

Some very good ranges to use up here FUD, and no dangerous gator's to worry about.

[Tom B]

G29. Compact Glock 10mm!

[Shmackey]

If the .40's good, the 10mm's better.

[Shooter973]

The 40 S&W is the answer to a question that didn't need to be asked. It is a comprimise cartridge, if you want Hi- caps you go with the 9mm if you want knock-down you go with 45acp. Its just not for me. I'll stick with the orignal answer, 45acp is best. I cant' think of one time I'd pick a 9mm or a 40 over a 45 for self defense. :scrutiny:

[TheMariner]

People like to call the .40S&W a comprimise round, and indeed, it is... But since when has compirmising been a necessariy bad thing?

I've shot the .45ACP and the 9mm. I would carry .45 right now but I know, as a matter of simple fact, that I can't handle a .45 single-handedly in my preferred .45 cartridge, the 230gr FMJ. My hands just are right for trying to handle that, especially under the duress of combat.

So I settled with the .40S&W. I like having a full mag. I like knowing the I'm holding the biggest rounds I can physically handle with my dominant hand. And, after some practice, I know that at 7 yards, I can utterly and completely decimate any target without lookign at the sights or using a cheater (HUD, laser, focused flash light, etc). Though I still am working on perfecting my single handed techniques, with two hands, I'm just as good as with the .45 or the 9mm and I have ten big rounds to utilize to the utmost of my ability under the current ban... I don't care for high cap 9mm weapons since I feel having more bullets doesn't necessarily mean better... There is a point where I say enough. 20+1 is plenty. Any more and I might as well bring an SMG.

I say the .40S&W is what your looking for if you want the biggest bullet with the most rounds under the law without worrying about having a really heavily weapon or buying expensive mags for hi-cap 9mm's.

Shoot what you can shoot and forget the rest. Its bullcrap anyway.

[WonderNine]

Are you trying to tell me that if a BG is wearing a bullet-proof vest, and is hit with a 230 grain ball .45 at a close, combat distance, he will not go down? I find that hard to believe.

I was just kind of jokingly talking about "a badguy getting blown through the wall" with the energy from a 30/30 the other day when Al Thompson said, "If the recoil won't throw you through a wall, the bullet sure won't throw a target either."

Makes perfect sense to me.

[DigMe]

Are you trying to tell me that if a BG is wearing a bullet-proof vest, and is hit with a 230 grain ball .45 at a close, combat distance, he will not go down? I find that hard to believe.

That is indeed what I'm telling you. The Hollywood shootout is a great example of this although I'm sure the cops weren't shooting ball. Those guys were taking many, many hits at close range with little to no effect. You say some good things in your post but I still feel there is some misconception about knock down power. Honestly I don't pretend to be some know-it-all and I could definitely be wrong about some of this but when you're hit by that projectile that has all that force you should theoretically fly back through the air to some extent and we all know that doesn't happen. Somehow, some way much of that force gets dissipated. I can't answer how or why (Aside from the fact that much of it goes into deformation and heat - oh yeah I didn't really talk about heat but heat is created when a round hits and that also dissipates energy) but I've seen it happen and I've heard many stories about people shot with a variety of calibers of guns including .45 who did not fall down and continued running, standing etc...

brad cook

[Caseless]

I'll just echo the opinion many others have: the best round for self defense is the one you use to practice at the range every week.;)

[Dr.Rob]

So wait, you are saying .45 acp UNDERPENETRATES?:rolleyes: :uhoh: :scrutiny:

I'm lost, won't a clogged 230 gr hollowpoint at 850fps go through like 18+ inches of denim wrapped gelatin?That's enough to get through the boiler room of the Michelin man.

All clogged HPs start acting very much like FMJ, even if they are clogged with goose down, gortex, or tinsel.

Bigger is better, faster is better, heavier is better. Throw the biggest, fastest, heaviest rock you can throw accurately.

[popbang]

The amount of energy transferred to the target is much closer to the momentum value than the kinetic energy value.

[RepublicanMan]

Sounds like the wonderful burg of Fogelsville or Trexlertown to me.
Welcome to the neighborhood. :D