[Lucky]

I'm looking for a blade that's a knife, but could also be used as a hatchet for medium periods of time without rubbing skin raw, say fifteen minutes to half an hour. And would also be usable for digging/scraping in soil that has a few rocks in it. And a good hand-guard so the hand doesn't slip forward. I don't which of the handguard styles would be better though:

And what type of steel would be best?


http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/products/C000641_L.jpg
http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/swords/plugbayonet2.jpg

[CWL]

How about the Ontario SP-8 Machete? I have one and it's the only one that I would even consider scooping rocks with.
http://www.ontarioknife.com/specplus_pg1.html

Realistically, you are asking for too many functions from one tool. Many tools may be able to do 2 of your 3 requisites, but not all 3 very well. How about a knife + hatchet; or knife + small shovel?

I think that a handguard is pretty useless for a work tool and will only get in the way, it's there more for fighting than for utility.

Do you know how to "baton" a knife? This is when you use a wooden limb as a mallet against the back spine of your knife so the knife will function as a hatchet -this is done by survivalists to cut branches, down trees and cut/split logs.

If you dig with a knife, the point and edge are going to get dulled/ruined/broken. A personal shovel like an entrenching tool or spade can have one edge sharpened for chopping purposes.

I would never use any of my knives to dig, worse case, I could use it to sharpen a digging stick with which to dig holes (actually this is exacly what I do when digging personal latrines while backpacking).

[Lucky]

That sounds pretty good then. Never thought of making a stick for digging, do you shape it like a wedge or something? And for batoning with a knife, would you need to do that with that SP8 machete, and what's the technique?

Thanks for the tip though, that looks pretty good.

[Brian Williams]

US GI Shovel.

or a machete

[CWL]

That SP-8 is heavy, it's a 1/4" prybar as much as a chopping tool. You could dig with it, but it will still ruin the top edge. It is something more like a camp knife/tool rather than a carry item. You should still carry a smaller knife.

If you want to learn more about using a knife/axe/saw in the wilderness, here's a cheap start; this book is written my Mors Kochanski, a survival expert living in the forests of Canada.

http://www.amazon.com/Bushcraft-Outdoor-Skills-Wilderness-Survival/dp/1551051222/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-1717910-1688156?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179513038&sr=8-1

Oh yeah, digging sticks, all non-metal cultures used them for digging & planting. Find a 1-2 inch diameter straight stick/pole and whittle a medium point to it. You can also use 2-3" planks with the edge narrowed-down like a shovel on sandy soil.

[Lucky]

Thanks for the tip. I just ordered the books, and also found this site useful: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/seton/knife_hatchet.htm

Do the books describe how to baton a knife?

[Fosbery]

Batoning a knife is very simple. Place the knife as if you had just struck it with a chopping motion i.e. cutting edge along the surface you want to cut with the back of the blade to the sky. Take a small (hand sized) log and beat it on the back of the blade. This hammering action pushes the blade into the wood and splits it open like a hatchet strike. It's not as efficient or as comfortable as an axe but it makes a perfectly workable substitute. I believe that knives with a Scandinavian grind work best for batoning, but any knife with a flat back edge can do it (knives with sawbacks, and daggers, cannot, obviously).

Many large knives like machetes, camp knives and bowies (as opposed to a decorative or fighting bowie) can be used to chop with but I'd advise against using a knife to dig with as the upper portion of blade will get ruined. If you must do it, consider wrapping some duct tape around the end of the blade to protect it.

Ontario, Becker Knife and Tool (now closed down, but their knives are still for sale in many places), Ka-Bar, SOG, Fallkniven and Bark River all make suitable knives of good quality. The Entrek destroyer is also a very nice large outdoors knife that I've been trying out, and Condor make a variety of cheaper knives that should meet the bill.

If you'd prefer to baton than chop (the advantage being a smaller knive which is easier to carry and more suitable for lighter tasks) then I'd reccomend a British bushcrafter, also known as 'bushie' or 'woodlore clone' (the knife that started the craze was called the Woodlore, but is no longer made). Here's an example:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/rapidboy1/knives/432_3203_1.jpg

Plenty of makers here in the UK selling them, though Spyderco have said they're developing their own commercial version :D

A dirt cheap alternative to that is the Mora knives made by Frosts which you can get for $10 in the USA, and often get given away with magazines, so I hear.

[RobG]

Mors Kochanski, Cody Lundin, Ray Mears, Ron Hood, and of course Jon Weiseman's SAS Manual are all good resources.

A couple web resources include http://www.survival.com/IVB, http://www.knifeforums.com, http://tions.net/CA256EA900408BD5/vwWWW/outdoor~03~000, and http://bushcraftuk.com

hehe-that'll keep you busy

and poor


Yup - I'm an enabler.

[RancidSumo]

http://www.coldsteel.com/35atcj.html

[Lucky]

Wow, lots and lots of information to absorb now.

[RobG]

A big +1 on Moras to play with. Try looking at http://ragweedforge.com (scroll down a bit) to get a good feel for what Moras, puukos, and leukos are out.

They start relatively inexpensive and go on up. They are excellent quality for the price.

Another big +1 for Bark River. They have a subforum on the knifeforums link I provided earlier. Not everyone likes them, but they work for a lot of folks.

Fallkniven is the same way, big +1.

No disrespect meant to Fosberry, he is well versed, some argue that a full flat grind works better than a scandi grind. Ya know what - it's whatever works for you. :) One bit that I'd add - try to keep the knife as level as possible.

Here is a pdf doc on batoning: http://www.barkriverknives.com/docs/batoning.pdf

[Scotticus]

How about the Woodsman's Pal?
http://www.woodmanspal.com/

[Lucky]

That's another to keep in mind. There's also a survival machete I see Ontario makes. I'm going to try batoning with a knife and making a digging stick, if that all works then all one really would need is a large knife.

A couple questions I have come up with:
#1 What's a freshly-cut baton look like?
#2 Can one baton to cut trees and logs up, like shown in A though E, and P & R in the diagram below?

http://www.inquiry.net/images/bbrg215.gif

[Valkman]

I'd start kinda cheap because if you twist or bend a knife while doing this it'll break. The harder it is the faster it'll break. Sounds like a useful skill but I'd wear eye protection and be careful!

I think the machete and shovel idea is a great one, because knives weren't made to do some of this stuff and no one will warranty them if you do them. Many makers make big knives that can chop all day but these are good knives, and you wouldn't ever dig with 'em unless you really, really had too. They'd also be expensive.

[SDC]

I've seen several versions of something I've heard called a "smatchet" that's sort of like a straight-bladed kukri; the Russians use one (inside a velcroed on cover) as a detachable shoulder-stock for their TP-82 survival rifle, and it's supposed to be able to be used as everything from a hatchet, to a shovel, to a hammer, to a brush-clearing machete, etc.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p22/StaceyC123/TP-82stock.jpg

[CWL]

Sorry, but I seem to have forgotten to suggest a khukri. Something in a 12-15" blade from Himilayan Imports will do the job, but they are on the really big side of knives. They should be stout enough to dig with as well, though you will still ruin the edge.

As for batoning, it is meant for 1-man use and leaving very little footprint to woods after you've moved-on. You are generally cutting limbs and lumber that are less-wide than the length of your blade in order to make shelter or firewood with. There are techniques for cutting down trees thicker than your knife & baton, but you may put yourself in extreme danger if you try them at this stage.

If you are planning on felling timber, then you should use an full-size axe or saw.

[Lucky]

Got it, thanks. I looked at Khukris already, could have sworn someone mentioned them. I read about batoning a blade point-first, to split it in half, and a bent blade like a khukri might have problems like that.

When there's a dry weekend I'm going to try with digging sticks, see if those work for me at all. If not then the shovel/axe would be best, there's military surplus ones that are solid and not folding, that look like they'd stand up to use. Or else find a good long shank one from the hardware store and cut the handle down, and sharpen the blade.

[Plink]

I own an interesting model. It's called "The Solution" from Alcas. It converts from a knife to a hatchet. The knife had an odd balance because of the conversion design, but it's very useable once you get used to it. The steel is very good and takes abuse without a whimper. The hatchet function works great! It also has one of the few useable "saw backs" on the knife blade that I've ever encountered. It's a shame that they don't make it anymore, as it was a really good, really useful camp combo. Occasionally they turn up on the market. If you find one, I highly recommend it! I'm still kicking myself for not taking advantage of their offer to buy a second one for half price.

[Scotticus]

Instead of a knife that can be used as a hatchet, there are hatchets that can be used as knives (Firestone Hand Axe, Timberline Bush Pilot Survival Hatchet, and others). Also ran across the Condor Wilderness Tool and other interesting tools at this site http://www.condortk.com/products.php?type=4

[Lucky]

Plink that's awesome: http://cutlerscove.com/survival-knives/alcas-solution.htm

Scotticus that's a good idea too...

Many choices, I may have a dozen knives decorating a wall before long!

[mrmeval]

Barong from cold steel or you can get one from the Philippines from madmike at http://www.sharppointythings.com send an email to him. I think the Philippines made one has a better shape and is thicker, made of carbon steel.

http://premiumknives.com/ShopSite/Cold-Steel-88PB-Moro-Barong.html

[Kaylee]

well, I've felled a little tree (6" diameter or so) like that with a HI kukri*, and it was a relatively easy task. Splitting the log with a batoning type technique was right easy to - you just pretend the forward "lobe" of the knife is your blade, and proceed as normal.

The only I think don't like about the kukri is its relative bulk- my present woodsy knife is a WSK pattern. It does most things okay, and has some nice bells and whistles - but it's not ideal for everything by a long shot. Definite "compromise" piece, but if you're okay with that it's a good one.

I'm presuming you're not really planning on felling trees as big as in the drawing, right?

-K


*John could tell you the model, I just know it works Real Good. :)

[Scottso]

Get a Woodsmans Pal and be done with it!

[TimboKhan]

I have a cheap cold steel Kukri that I like, but really, for what your talking about, I agree with everyone else that said Woodsman Pal. I think that the pal is just about perfect for the kind of usage you are talking about.

[Dirty Bob]

Or, how about a small sheath knife (maybe a Mora, or something similar), and a Cold Steel Special Forces Shovel. The shovel covers the digging chores, and it can be used for some light chopping, if it's sharpened properly. I like the SF shovel and use mine quite a bit at home. It's a fearsome weapon if sharpened, but no one bats an eye when they see a small shovel in a homemade plastic sheath.

Save the big cutting tasks for an ax or saw. BTW, a good, small folding saw (looks like a big folding knife) is a better wood cutter for small jobs than you might expect, and it's a quiet way to gather shelter materials.

If I'm cooking with wood, I often use a homemade stove and gather small stuff off the ground throughout the day. No cutting involved; just drop them in a small nylon sack, and at dinnertime, I have enough for dinner and breakfast, plus a little more.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

[Lucky]

As suggested by Scotticus and Fosberry, got the Condor Wilderness tool. Very nice. Actually I got a big 3-pound bowie, impressively thick and heavy, almost exactly like my first picture. Unfortunately while fishing and hiking I somehow lost it out of the holster, which had only 1 snap to keep it in place. So I've gotten the wilderness tool, with excellent retention straps and only 1 pound, and a 4" Ontario Spec knife (also with 2 straps) now.

[sandy4570]

Cold steel special force shovel might fit you specifications.If you sharp one side for cutting and left another side with keen edge enough to split wood , it can dig as well . I plan to try it on my next camping trip (I want to use it as a paddle for the canoe as well -I hope I don't drop it in the lake)

[hso]

If you find the Condor tool to do the job a big hunk of steel bowie doesn't really have a purpose any more.

[BlackBaer]

SMATCHET! Latest Boker version is all black.