[Glock_PhD]

So I was out with a group of people last night some of whom were freinds and some of whom were freinds of the freinds. As we were eating dinner we got into a political discussion. Nice discussion people making some good points on various sides of the argument. Then we got to the patriot act. I of course stated how it not only violated so many rights but in some ways just threw the constitution and bill of rights out the window. We got various other opinions about it. Most were just wishy washy I see why its bad but also necesary kind of stuff. But some were staunchley in favor of it. Taking the if you have nothing to hide what do you care road. I went as far as to say why doesn't the government just bug everyones phone. There response was fine as long as it stops another 9-11. They then asked me what would you rather see the patriot act in place or another 9-11. I thought i had a good answer and I am curious what others would say. Obviously no one wants to see another 9-11 but where do we draw the line? Here is the kicker I realize maintaining our rights and halting terrorism is not mutualy exclusive. But some people and by some I mean most just don't get it. So what do you say?

[J Miller]

But some people and by some I mean most just don't get it. So what do you say?
I know this may be an over simplification of this problem, but most people haven't been directly "involved" with any part of this Patriot Act. So they are still comfortable and free to believe what they want.
They wont "get it" untill they some how innocently run afowl of some part of this act. Then, and this is a maybe, only then will they understand.

(It's the same thing about anti gun laws. Non gun owners are not directly affected by them, so they don't get it.)

[Pilgrim]

I once brought up for discussion in a class on criminal justice procedures a case that was decided by the U.S. Supreme Court. The case was Knowles vs. Iowa (1999).

Knowles was stopped for speeding. After he was issued a citation, the officer searched Knowles car and found marijuana. Iowa permitted a warrantless search of a motor vehicle if the driver was cited for an offense for which he could have been arrested. Knowles appealed. The U.S. Supreme Court held that unless Knowles was taken into custody, a warrantless search of his car under the "lawful arrest" exception could not take place.

I asked the class what they thought of the Iowa law before I told them how the U.S. Supreme Court ruled. Most of the class thought that it was perfectly Ok since it caught a drug user.

I then asked if they thought it would be a fun family vacation if while on the the way to some place like Disneyland they were stopped for a traffic violation, and using Iowa's law as an example the officer searched their car. Some students still supported Iowa's law. They had nothing to hide.

I then asked if they thought it would be a fun family vacation if they were stopped two or three times for a traffic violation, cited, and each time their car was searched while their family had to stand alongside the highway while their car was searched. Then the collective lights in the students' eyes all lit up.

Even the "I've got nothing to hide" students began to realize that it would not be fun to have state officials search through their personal belongings over and over and over.

Pilgrim

[SkunkApe]

Pilgrim, its a wonderful way to illustrate the problem. Mind if I borrow it?

[Pilgrim]

Pilgrim, its a wonderful way to illustrate the problem. Mind if I borrow it?

Not at all. That is why I posted it. I often use the example of taking something to its logical extreme to get a point across.

I have used it in the gun control debate. Once, when I was working for the Sheriff, one of the records office clerks announced, "I think only police and military should have guns.

I answered, "Good. When that comes to pass I will be able to take from you anything I want."

She looked stunned and said, "But you wouldn't do anything like that."

I asked, "Why do you think that?"

"But you are a deputy sheriff."

"That is no guarantee I am a good and honorable man."

She looked a bit uncomfortable after that exchange.

Pilgrim