Thoughts on countering this Anti Tactic?


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tinygnat219
May 21, 2007, 12:11 PM
This is the one where 32 people do the "lie in" "die in" representing the 32 people murdered at VA Tech. Their site also includes handouts and talking points.

http://www.protesteasyguns.com/

What would one think of establishing a counter protest, during one of the lie ins? I know there was a thread on this topic earlier, but I thought this would be a better place to display it.

It definitely draws press.
http://www.protesteasyguns.com/galleries/alexandria/index.htm
http://www.protesteasyguns.com/galleries/bethesda/index.htm
http://www.protesteasyguns.com/galleries/fallschurch/index.htm

There also has to be something like this being funded from a higher level. Volunteers are one thing, but they have massive protests going all over the place. Someone, or organization has to be funding this.
Thoughts?

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atk
May 21, 2007, 12:33 PM
Someone in another thread mentioned something about showing up with a large banner that reads, "People at VA Tech that could have been saved by an armed citizen"

ZeSpectre
May 21, 2007, 12:36 PM
Well it seems like their "focus" is the phrase that it is too easy to buy a gun in the United States.
have a line of people laying down, and have them get up and recite the name and story of someone who was SAVED by defensive use of a firearm.

Make a comparison sign "in the united states"
Guns purchased per day - XXXX Deaths by gun per day - YYYYYY
Automobiles purchased per day - MMMMM Deaths by automobile per day - NNNN

Dunno, just brainstorming.

Personally I always want to ask the protesters if they own a gun, if they've ever had to go through the process they are talking about, basically if they have any actual experience on the topic they are protesting.

FieroCDSP
May 21, 2007, 12:47 PM
Maybe there's a way to form a protest against being an easy victim? maybe like a street drama thing. Get 30 or so people together, dress 7 or so as the "SIMS" style cat-burgler (black and white striped shirt, black mask) and cordon off a small area of a park or wide sidewalk. Post a mock "GUN-FREE" zone sign on each end, and have your other 23 people (in matching group T-shirts or other such obvious apparel) walk through doing the usual bliss-ninny things. Talking on a cell phone, reading a paper, pushing a stroller, etc. The burglers jump these people (who pretend not to see them until it's too late)
Use dummy guns (the blue or orange type used for hand-hand training) and fake knives (also the same Blue or orange) and have the people attacked at gun and knife point. To make it fair to the anti's, have some people with a fake pepper spray can(which will or will not stop the perp an average number of times) and have them go "SHHHHHH" to simulate spraying. Also have some of the ladies use keys to scratch with mixed results. The usual array of things that people offer up against guns.
Also have two to three people armed with concealed dummy guns, walking through the gun-free zones at random. These should be people that are versed and practiced in the proper use of it at CCW and hand-to-hand ranges. Obviously thse people would win against the assailant 100% of the time. :evil: They can stop to help someone that is being assaulted with the knife or gun if they're not assaulted themselves as they pass through.

The criminals would generally mill around in the zone a while, pick a target at random, then attack in the zone (mostly), or follow out of the zone and be immediately attacked. If they succeed against their victim, they get to pick a sticker or sign at random from a moderator's pillow-case or such (or a bag they have on their hip). The signs/stickers would say "DEAD" or "Badly-Injured" to represent being a victim of violent crime. They leave the zone and give their sign to a score-keeper who tallies it on a white-board or poster-board. The CCW guys also have the tags, but more "injured" than "dead", to represent the injury to fatality ratio of defensive shootings. When a criminal is dead, he leaves the "game" for a while. These scores are also tallied on a seperate board for comparison.

Have an extra person with a book of FBI stats they can discuss with people, and maybe some hand-outs people can take if they want. Don't hand them out to everyone, most will end up in the trash.

I can see this being an interesting performance in a major park like in New York or other places. Don't push the pro-gun outright. Push an Anti-Victim agenda (with the use of pro-gun, pro-mace, etc). People hear Pro-gun rhetoric and shy away. If you promote anti-victim, they'll probably listen. To help out, maybe get a local self-defense school to supply tools and/or actors in exchange for a promotional flyer, sign, or something. The hand-to-handers don't get the injure/kill tags, because the average person is not capable of killing or seriously wounding bare-handed in such an instance. Show that a CCW is an equalizer whether it's used or not.

If any town complains about this drama, use the 1A.

pax
May 21, 2007, 12:51 PM
Good thoughts above, but probably too complex.

I'm thinking something along the lines of showing up to the lie-in with a sign that reads: "These people could have been saved by ONE PERSON with a LEGALLY CARRIED firearm ..."

pax

FieroCDSP
May 21, 2007, 12:56 PM
Good thoughts above, but probably too complex

That's why you do it on a sunny Saturday in a busy park. It's too much like TV or movies for people not to watch when they're away from the real thing.:D If people will watch mimes or other street drama's, they'll watch this.

armoredman
May 21, 2007, 01:01 PM
One person standing with a "red gun" holstered, and 32 people next to him/her, and a sign saying "One person could have saved 32, but wasn't allowed to, by school rules."

ZeSpectre
May 21, 2007, 01:25 PM
It's good to see how the other side is thinking so I downloaded their "handout" and reviewed it. My thoughts included in bold type

PROTEST TALKING POINTS

--This is the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history. And the shooter bought his gun in just a few minutes.
#1) There are other Virginia Tech students and faculty who own firearms and also purchased them via the same system. None of them went on a murder spree. It’s a mistake to focus on the tools used when the real problem is the criminal (Cho) who committed the murders (and could very easily have chosen a different tool to do it with).

--We are staging this event to protest how short a period of time it takes to purchase a gun in [INSERT NAME OF YOUR STATE]. Each of the 32 participants will lie on the ground together for just a few minutes to symbolize the amount of time it took for the shooter to obtain his gun in the Commonwealth of Virginia.
#1) See above comment.

--We are not against hunters -- we simply want to start a conversation and implore our elected leaders to take a hard look at how we can combine elements of training, education, and background checks so that it takes longer than a few minutes for someone to buy a gun.
#1) Why are you so obsessed with “a few minutes”? The Virginia Tech criminal owned his tools for months before he made his decision to become a mass murderer. There were multiple opportunities to realize that Cho was unbalanced, and to stop him. Why aren’t you focusing on those failures?

--We are compelled to come together to do something NOW to express our outrage at what happened at Virginia Tech.
#1) Emotional response has no place in setting policy. “Outrage” is what caused mob riots in California and vigilante hangings in the old west. Is this how we wish to run our country?

--How can it be that it takes less time to purchase a gun than it does to buy milk and bread at a local grocery store?
#1) Wow, I have to wonder if the person who wrote this has EVER purchased a firearm. I’ve been in some pretty slow grocery store lines but it’s never taken me longer to buy milk than to fill out the required paperwork along with waiting for the NICS check.

--For those who will ask the inevitable question of where this protest fits on the political spectrum, we want to make it clear that this is about our outrage, pure and simple. We are coming together to protect our children (and ourselves!) and others from future gun violence.
#1) As stated before, emotional response has no place in setting policy.
#2) Misguided focus on the tool not the criminal (take away the tool and the criminal will find another. You have to stop the criminal.)
#3) More laws and restrictions only affect the law abiding who haven’t committed any crimes and who don’t deserve to be punished. Also, criminals will simply ignore the law as they have in the past (hint: that’s why they are called criminals!)

--Everyone has different views on our gun laws but whatever our personal views, we should all be able to agree that something must change.
#1) This is true, I do agree that something must change. Virginia Tech punished/restricted law-abiding, civic-minded, citizens who had not committed any crime. Said citizens were stripped of their right to self defense and left at the mercy of a criminal madman who simply ignored the law (as criminals tend to do) and took lives at whim. Well there is no longer any question about how effective the Virginia Tech policies were at actually stopping a criminal so maybe we need to try something different like actually TRUSTING our citizens and respecting their right to the self defense method(s) of their choice.

--Our goal is to increase public discourse on gun laws -- to discuss and explore what must be done in order to protect our children and the citizens of this country.
#1) I would love to have such a conversation. Sadly I feel as though you have already decided on a convenient demon (an inanimate object) and that is your sole actual focus.

--We are not trying to explore all the public policy paths to improve gun laws in [insert NAME OF YOUR STATE] -- what we are doing is expressing our objection to the status quo in [INSERT NAME OF YOUR STATE]’s gun laws (and by extension, federal gun laws). We want them improved. We want change.
#1) Unfortunately you seem to want change based on your current emotional response of “outrage”. This is unacceptable for policy making. See previous comments.
#2) Also, the “change” you outline previously is no change at all. You actually seem to want more of the same. More restrictive laws aimed at the law abiding thus punishing them for the actions of criminals who ignore laws in the first place. This course of action is what led to the disparity of force on the Virginia Tech campus where the lawful people obeyed the laws and were thus rendered unable to defend themselves against the criminal person who did as he pleased.

--The bottom line is that we are doing SOMETHING for a cause we know is right. Certain moments arise in life where it becomes imperative for people to stand up and stand together to try to make a change for the better.
#1) I agree completely. I just wish you were trying to make a change based on the examination of facts and the use of logical thinking rather than an emotional plea and fantastic notions (such as laws affecting the lawless) of how the world works.

PPGMD
May 21, 2007, 01:36 PM
You know if they did this in Florida they would have to be out there for 3 business days.

trueg50
May 21, 2007, 01:51 PM
well, depending on your area, you could hold some sort of "first time shooters" day at the local rifle range. Introduce new shooters to the sport, let them see what it is like, and that it is not some mean and horid activity. Educating them is the best way to have them see the correct point of view, not one obscured by misconceptions.

All it takes is a few friends with 22LR rifles or pistols, pick up a few bricks of ammo ($30) and talk with the local range, I am sure they would be glad to have such an event.

tinygnat219
May 21, 2007, 02:11 PM
Zespectre,

Good points! This would be a response to their handouts.

For the visual, I was thinking about borrowing some of Oleg's pictures and printing up some signs and just standing there in counter-protest, not doing anything to incite the other side. Just standing there with the signs, letting them do their thing.

I am going to PM Oleg to see what he thinks.

Zoogster
May 22, 2007, 06:53 AM
I think the same tactic would work as the anti one. They have 32 go lie there representing people that could do nothing who died. A good counter would be to have 32 go sit down and pretend to be studying and have a "gunman" come in pretending to shoot them and they could all point back and say bang, and him fall.

If done well I think it could be kept simple and give the message as effectively as the anti message. Of course this requires people to see the demonstration, while 32 can lie down all day.

It is just easier to give an anti message. After all the pro gun result would be few dead. How do you clearly symbolize nothing happening? A lot more difficult than simulating 32 dying. You could have 32 living people sitting at desks studying and 1 dead gunman on the ground with a smoking gun(s) on the desks? Of course firearms are not allowed while protesting, and fake ones might be mistaken. Dry ice smoking guns on desks and 1 dead gunman?

That would get attention. Have 32 desks sitting at a location and 1 dead gunman on the ground near them with a professor at the head of the class with a smoking gun?

Or perhaps just 32 sitting in a mock class (desks on a sidewalk/grass, arranged in rows, 1 dead guy on the ground) with a professor at the head and a dead gunman in the background lying on the ground? It would make people think. It could be symbolic of life continuing on relatively unimpaired as a result of being able to stop the gunman quickly and continue on with daily routines. Perhaps a single smoking gun on one of the desks the students are studying on, and the gunman dressed as rambo dead and bloody on the ground?

Juna
May 22, 2007, 08:45 PM
Those 32 people lying down would have had to wait a long time to get a handgun in MI. First, they'd have to go to the police station to apply for a purchase permit. Sometimes, you have to come back 24-48 hrs after applying for one to actually pick it up (which is illegal and wasn't done to me last time, but was the first time I bought a pistol). Then, you have to pass a written test on pistol safety before you can get a purchase permit. Then you get a purchase permit that expires in 10 days. Then you buy a handgun. Then you have 10 days to bring said handgun back to the PD for a "safety inspection" (AKA registration). Mind you, in my city, the local PD's records division (the ones who handle purchase permits & registration... I mean... "safety inspection") is open Monday-Thursday 1pm-4pm ONLY.

Have these bleeding hearts come to MI & actually try to buy a pistol here. Maybe it will change their minds, but probably not. It sounds like they've already made them up with no first hand knowledge of firearms--as usual. :barf::banghead:

Another idea: Bring up the recent Idaho shooting in a court house & church (GUN FREE ZONES), Columbine (GUN FREE ZONE), VA Tech (GUN FREE ZONE), etc. etc. etc. See the trend of where these mass shootings are occurring? When was the last time you saw a mass shooting at a shooting range or police department?

Bring up how well the "war on drugs" is working. Try to find a teenager who doesn't know how to get drugs or know someone who does... but drugs are illegal and shouldn't even exist in the U.S., right??? Or Prohibition.... that got rid of the alcohol "problem", right???? I mean how could people possibly be bootlegging when it's illegal???

CNYCacher
May 22, 2007, 11:28 PM
I think you should lay down among them and hold up a sign that says "We all could have been saved by just ONE armed citizen."

tinygnat219
May 24, 2007, 11:34 AM
Good ideas! Keep 'em coming!

SuperNaut
June 3, 2007, 12:56 AM
Carry a sign that says:

This is what happens in
GUN FREE ZONES

K-Romulus
June 5, 2007, 11:22 AM
More info: three of these this past weekend.

http://www.kyw1060.com/pages/535780.php?contentType=4&contentId=569916

Protestors Gathered to Denounce Current Gun Laws


by KYW’s John McDevitt

A demonstration to protest the easy accessibility of guns took place on Independence Mall Sunday afternoon.

At noon a group of protestors wearing sashes in the colors of Virginia Tech, one by one lay down on the sidewalk representing the 32 people killed in Virginia tech shooting. They stayed down for three minutes symbolizing the time it took for the gunmen to go on his shooting rampage.

Hope Bennett of Ambler is running "The Philadelphia 32" for www.protesteasyguns.com. She says the group is bound together by their anger and frustration regarding the existing gun laws:

"What we want is to bring just some basic common sense to gun laws. It’s crazy you don't need any registration, you don't need any permits. If you have a hand gun, you can get a permit to carry it concealed. That makes no sense.”

The rally went on the same time as two others in McLean, Virginia and Silver Spring, Maryland.

Since I don't watch TV, I haven't seen anything about these recent DC-area protests in the WashPost or the interweb. If anything, these "protests" will serve more to piss people off because they are blocking the sidewalk than to "raise awareness."

BBQJOE
June 5, 2007, 12:27 PM
Or perhaps your 32 lying could just be holding signs saying " I was shot in a gun free zone"

BBQJOE
June 5, 2007, 12:28 PM
Or perhaps your 32 lying could just be holding signs saying " I was shot in a gun free zone"

Zen21Tao
June 5, 2007, 04:06 PM
Put a sign that says "Gun Free Zone" and the signs "Virginia tech," "Luby's Dinner," "Columbine High school", etc and have a number of people that represent total number killed lie down.

Then, across from them put yup a sign that says "Gun's Welcome" and signs for "Salt Lake City Mall," "Appalachian Law School," and have a number of people lay down there.

Let people see just how fewer people are in the "Gun's Welcome" side that the "Gun Free Zone" side.

SkiLune
June 5, 2007, 04:21 PM
I'd simply say that the Second Amendment is necessary to protect the First Amendment, which the protestors are exercising.

I think it is no coincidence that our Founding Fathers placed 2a right after the right to free speech.

Crunker1337
June 5, 2007, 04:39 PM
Easy, have one person playing dead surrounded by as many other armed people as you can have. Then have a person playing dead school shooter lay far off.

Matt King
June 7, 2007, 05:06 PM
Someone, or organization has to be funding this.

Does anyone know if the NRA ever holds marches? I know that some state groups have, but I don't ever remember the NRA holding any.

Mannix
June 8, 2007, 01:06 AM
This is not a "new" tactic. A close family friend's mom used to pay my mom and said friend to attend them back in the late 70's. My suggestion is to bring a sign that says "These 32 people could have been saved if VT administrators did not prohibit carrying on campus", or something similar. I figure it would A.) Make them get up and argue with you(ruining the "die in"), or B.) Distort their message when they ignore you.

BobCav
June 8, 2007, 01:28 AM
I'd say have 32 Open Carriers circle them to protect them while vulnerable. At least in states where OC is legal. Since they live VA, it should be fun! Maybe we'll bring a video camera then too! Muahahaha....



Oh yeah. THIS is what happens when kids skip history class.

ctdonath
June 8, 2007, 04:55 PM
1 lying down with sign: "would-be murderer, dead because someone fought back"
1 standing with plastic/toy/squirt gun and sign: "I fought back, 32 survived"
31 standing behind him with sign: "alive because someone was allowed to fight back"

Carl N. Brown
June 8, 2007, 05:58 PM
It seems like every one of these massacres has occurred
in a "Gun Free Zone" that bans even those with state license
or permit to carry; the killers know that: that is why they do
not go to gun shows or rifle ranges, they go to posted "Gun
Free Zones." Duh.

coyote_jr
June 8, 2007, 06:17 PM
Have any of you actually looked at the photos from those events.

There is NOONE there.

I don't think you really need to even worry about countering their tactic. It blows already.

1911ShooterTJ
June 9, 2007, 03:18 PM
32 people open carrying with a sign that says “Not an easy target”.

Smurfslayer
June 13, 2007, 02:15 PM
Round up some homeless folks and street beggers (you may need to rent a van) and drop them off at the protest site. The panhandlers will sufficiently take away from any "protest" value.

strat81
June 13, 2007, 02:48 PM
I like Supernaut's sign. :)

As for it being easy to buy guns, and it taking less time to buy a gun than milk and eggs... I find it ironic that some of these protests were in NYC. You have to practically split the atom before they let citizens purchase firearms there. Months for permits, waiting periods, etc etc.

BB62
June 14, 2007, 11:10 AM
Sign - "Brady Bunch accessory to murder"

Blackbeard
August 1, 2007, 06:23 PM
If gun bans stop murder then bomb bans stop terrorism.

PC40
August 5, 2007, 09:32 PM
Do not do anything. The thing will get lots more attention if there's a counter protest, and the media will try to make the pro-gun side look like blood-thirsty maniacs. Let them make fools of themselves with their childish drama.

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