Took my CCW class today...these people scare me


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Min
June 21, 2003, 11:00 PM
Class of 16...1 woman, all others men.

We were all asked to go up to the front of the class to go through the motions of loading, chambering, decocking (if applicable), dryfiring, and releasing magazine (all with empty guns). These guys were all holding the guns with shaky hands, and fumbling with the basic moves to the point that made me think they should not be having firearms at all. One guy racked his slide by putting his hand in front of his muzzle and pushing back...with his finger on the trigger.

3/4 of them had finger on the trigger problem. The instructor had to tap them on the back of the head to remind them. You do it once it's a tap. Twice it's a harder tap. A third time you go home.

Several brought guns so new they were still in the plastic wrap...obviously never shot them until today at class.

One guy had no magazine for his Springfield 1911.

One Renewal lady was so uncomfortable with her semi-auto (a really nice Smith and Wesson, too) she could barely stand to hold it. The motions described above took minutes...

So, these are the TX CCW...

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Art Eatman
June 21, 2003, 11:13 PM
Hey, it's no better at some racing driver schools, either. The attitude is different, but the skill levels--er, leave something to be desired...

People don't change. At the time of the squabbling over the Gun Control Act of 1968, I watched folks come in to my local gun store to buy a handgun "while they still could". After the rather nervous salesman would show them how to load and unload the new Precious Object, he would suggest buying a box of El Cheapo practice ammo, plus a box of self-defense ammo.

The common response from Mr. or Miz. Know Nuttin was, "Oh, can't I buy just six bullets?"

Art

Glamdring
June 21, 2003, 11:13 PM
Sounds like they need a gun saftey class first.

MN just became a shall issue state end of last month :D

I only saw one gun handling mistake. One guy was shooting a 1911 and he had weak hand thumb wrapped around the grip (you know where if it gets to high the slide will cut in recoil). He shot the qualifier without drawing his own blood, so maybe he is used to shooting that way??

Pilgrim
June 22, 2003, 12:20 AM
A fellow I know was an instructor at Gunsite. They planned for rank beginners in their Basic Pistol Class. It goes with the territory.

Pilgrim

Moparmike
June 22, 2003, 12:39 AM
Where can I look for a basic pistol class? I havent had lots of experience handling one and would like to get some detailed instruction even though I know the rules and are not 'afraid of' or 'uncomfortable with' the inanimate object.

I also need to get in touch with my uncle and see about some plinking with his pistol.

Thanks for any advice!

Duncan Idaho
June 22, 2003, 03:22 AM
Where can I look for a basic pistol class?
Try looking here: http://www.nratraining.com/cgi-bin/list.pl

Wildalaska
June 22, 2003, 03:37 AM
You think you got it bad in my state they turn people loose with concealed weapons with NO training or permits required at all...

WildscaryaintitAlaska

Tamara
June 22, 2003, 03:42 AM
Not really. :p

Wildalaska
June 22, 2003, 03:58 AM
Not really.

Ya got more than me then :)

WildyouareanightowltooAlaska

Kevlarman
June 22, 2003, 04:01 AM
I just came back from my first NRA basic pistol class today. I consider myself an experienced shooter, but no where near being a "pro."

Anyways, there were only four of us in the class, and each one of use was less than 25 years old. A boyfried/girlfriend couple came just because they might be interested in buying a handgun soon.

The other female encountered a handgun at her boyfriend's place, so she took the class in order to learn what to do when she finds a gun just laying around.

The instructors were a husband/wife couple in their mid 50s. I was expecting a crotchety old croon yelling at us to "keep our finger off the trigger" or slap the muzzle out of their faces. That was far from the truth. They took their time and explained to each one of us the basic gun handling routines. The instructors even went around and told the other students that I was already experienced, and called upon me to do some demonstrations and whatnot. :cool:

I find it odd that the young ones were so calm and cool about handling firearms; a lot of the older folks I've seen at the range handled them a lot worse. :confused:

Walther P99
June 22, 2003, 04:24 AM
When I took my CHL class, there was an older woman who (the only female in the class I think) who I heard just barely passed the range test by 3 points (250 total). She obviously had very little firearm training; but the kicker was that she was quite rude and bitchy throughout the class...

WildyouareanightowltooAlaska

Nightowls are everywhere. :)

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
June 22, 2003, 04:54 AM
It's sometimes as bad here in Dallas also. One applicant in my CHL class had a new in the box, still in plastic wrap Kahr .40. Never had touched it (which may have been a good thing). Had to be de-gunked before she could run the firing sesson. On several occasions the instructor had to sidetrack just to answer hypothetical questions from left field that she would constantly ask. She was on the range (indoor) after I was and she hit the target carrier 3x. We were making bets on whether she hit it a fourth time or if they would eject her. As it was, they passed her... on her second run through of the firing course.

That instructor is a cadidate for sainthood in my o(p)inion.

Regards,
Rabbit.

edited: I usually proofread my stuff; this one slipped, but then again, it's 0300 and I'm trying to watch some weird Japanese monster movie and type, too.
Rabbit.

Dorian
June 22, 2003, 05:38 AM
In your oinion, huh? Sir, could you please point to your oinion for me?

Only a story from my CCW instructor... Actually two.

First is the woman he was telling me about. She was really nervous and couldn't keep her finger off the trigger. While they were taking their turns shooting, she was up, gun fully loaded, and turned around pointing her gun at everyone asking a question. Needless to say she was given more personal instruction after everyone else had gone.

Second, my ccw instructor said something that scared me. He told me that out of the two years and several hundered shooters he had qualified, I was one of only five that shot a perfect score. Perfect meaning I got them all in the black..........

Oh well.... When someone says "I have a concealed weapon!", just tell em to keep it that way and you'll take care of the situation! :rolleyes:

Nathaniel Firethorn
June 22, 2003, 08:19 AM
http://lithouse.washcoll.edu/images/onion.jpg
Oninion n. A mutated vegetable standing two meters high. Used by some to scare the heck out of cats.

"I conceal a Smith 629 and a Mossberg pump in my oninion. They smell bad afterward, but no one bothers them."

- pdmoderator

ACP230
June 22, 2003, 09:14 AM
I was in a large CCW class about three years ago. I saw no extremely lousy gun handling and everyone shot pretty well.
Of course, I live in a rural area where a large percentage of the population shoots, hunts, or both.

There were four women out of the 40 attendees. One had a North American Arms .22 revolver a relative had given her. She started the range portion shooting it, but only hit the paper about two for five. She switched to a .38 snubnose revolver the instructor had along and did quite a bit better.

There were some older men in the class who shot with single action revolvers. I was behind them in line and quickly concluded that I wouldn't want them to shoot at me.

I saw one of the participants when I went downtown a couple of weeks after the class. I had my permit and was carrying, I assumed he was packing too. It didn't bother me at all.

Apple a Day
June 22, 2003, 09:21 AM
16 more people who have taken the time to get some training. That's 16 more than there were before (or 15 + Min whose neck is probably sore from shaking his head in disbelief).
When I took my course there were only 4 of us in the class. That was before 9/11 , though. My license actually came in the mail on Sept. 11th.

Lone_Gunman
June 22, 2003, 09:50 AM
Wild Alaska sez:

You think you got it bad in my state they turn people loose with concealed weapons with NO training or permits required at all...

Oh, so you mean they let people have guns just like specified in that old dusty Constitution thing I read about in elementary school???

The government does not have any business whatsoever in establishing standards or requirements for lawful carry of firearms.

Training is a personal matter. If you choose not to train, thats fine, as long as you dont mind being a bad shot and potentially unsafe.

The lack of safety on the part of other gun owners doesnt necessarily bother me. Its part of the inherent risk of a free society.

MLH
June 22, 2003, 09:53 AM
That most people are nervous getting up in front of a lot of strangers (remember giving speeches in high school?:eek: ), so you have to give them a little slack. I still get nervous when I have to do this, but I am a lot better than then because now I don't care what they think of me;). If you were standing in front of all the THR's members talking instead of typing you might fumble a few words since you don't have the time to run a spell check one your ramblings.:uhoh: :D

El Tejon
June 22, 2003, 10:01 AM
How is this possible? These people all owned firearms, thus they must be competent gun handlers.:rolleyes:

You mean someone else, besides that whiny little squirrel El Tejon, is going on a training kick? That's outrageous. I own guns, I don't need to learn anything.:scrutiny:

CB900F
June 22, 2003, 10:04 AM
Min & all;

In the mid '60's I was introduced to concealed carry with these (to the best of my memory) instructions: Take this sumb!tch (a Colt Detective Special in a leather holster on a web belt) & wear it under yer class A's. An if I ever hear anybody's ever seen the sumb!tch, I'm gonna rip you a new *********.

I was told this by an NCO in the U.S. Army, approx 6" from my face in an elevated tone of voice. Accompanied by halitosis.

Although I've been carrying for over 35 years, nobody's 'made' me that I know of. Multiple states have honored the Army's instructions. I've never had to take a qualification course in order to get my carry license. Perhaps I should, just to see 'the state of the art' in concealed carry instruction. But there's something to be said for fear factor also. Not that I'm recommending it as a new wave instruction method, the drop out rate might climb.

900F

M2 Carbine
June 22, 2003, 10:18 AM
When Texas first came out with the "hoops" we were going to be required to jump through to get a carry license license I was almost 100% against all the BS.

Why the hell did I need to take two days and spend all that money to learn something I already knew?
I had been a LEO, a USMC Sergeant, a Army officer and I could probably shoot better than 90% of the LEO's on the street.
I knew the laws.

Now, I am 100% for the "hoops", except it still costs too much but I can see it being self funding.

I think every law abiding citizen has the right to own and carry a gun but with this right comes a big responsibility.

The responsibility to aquire the knowledge to own and carry with safety and some degree of skill.

I think it's outrageous when you read, in a gun magazine, where a man (not in Texas) with a CHL is asking what he does if stopped by a LEO.

If it was up to me the gun handling and shooting requirements for getting and renewing a CHL would be a lot more stringent.

For instance, a minimum amount of gun handling knowledge and hopefully some shooting skill before taking the CHL class.

Require that the person actually get some shooting practice before their next 4 year renewal. I think we all know that many people never shoot their gun in the whole 4 years between CHL classes.

I really don't want more "hoops" written in the laws.
The only way I see to better the situation is for us shooters to go out of our way when ever we can, to try and help these new people learn.

I'm lucky enough to have a shooting range at home and I have an almost open invitation, to practice, for "friends of friends" that are going for their CHL.

When you run across these uninformed people, instead of just criticizing them for their lack of gun knowledge, see if there's a way you can help them.
Tell them where they can get training or offer to help them.
Invite them to the range to practice with your help.
Hell, if you get the impression that they can't afford a box of bullets, buy them a box for practice.

The more knowledgable shooters, the better off we all are.

brookstexas
June 22, 2003, 10:26 AM
My carry class in Austin Texas was awesome, maybe twelve shooters, 3 women who all shot very well. Not one goof in the bunch, it became a "Who is the best shot" contest more than anything.

What scares me more than the concealed carriers is the local cops I see on the range. Never heard of Jeff Cooper etc., Safety? Finger off trigger? Muzzle control?
Most don't shoot as well as the folks there for fun shooting either.
Not a slam on cops just an observation about the ones I've seen in this town.

Art Eatman
June 22, 2003, 11:07 AM
brookstexas, when we first started the old Hill Country Practical Pistol Club, we had a freebies deal for any active LEO. No entry fee at the matches, and a revolver-only class if appropriate.

No takers. None, in almost three years.

A gunsmith buddy of mine wound up with the "privilege" of cleaning the carry-pistol of an Austin PD Captain. The .38 snubbie hadn't been out of its leather holster in over ten years. It took most of an afternoon to get the cylinder open and unloaded.

A buddy of mine instructs for CHL at the DPS-approved range I have. By and large, most of his students have had some working knowledge of what they're doing, insofar as hitting the target. Few have any sort of tactical understanding of defensive use.

Art

Old Fuff
June 22, 2003, 12:32 PM
I'd like to make a point .....

A lot of people who show up for CCW classes are indeed ..... well lets say "badly lacking in knowledge and skills." But before "shall issue" laws were passed with training requirements these people usually didn't receive any instruction at all. Bad as the system may (or may not) be it is better to get to these folks then to not. Hopefully most will complete the course in better shape then when they came in, and because of that we are all better off.

HankB
June 22, 2003, 12:40 PM
When I took my CHL class in Austin, I was the only one who properly "cleared" his pistol when the instructor asked us to place them on the table at the beginning of class. One woman didn't know how to operate her pistol at all, but when the instructor cleared it, it was found to be fully loaded. :eek:

I was the only one in the class that actually shot a "perfect" score (250/250) but was only credited with a 249. Seems that same woman missed her target entirely several times, and one of her errant shots ended up in the vicinity of the navel on my silhouette target.

She still - barely - passed. (BTW, the test is NOT very demanding. If you can hit a dinner plate at 3, 5, and 15 yards, with generous time limits, you should be able to "clean" the test. 180 is passing, and 200 of the points are accounted for at the 3 and 5 yard lines.)

The scarey thing is that in TX, the qualification requirements are based generally on what it takes a police officer to qualify . . . which isn't much.

Sheslinger
June 22, 2003, 01:02 PM
We had 15 people in our class and were split into two groups. Eight of us took our lanes and the rest were standing behind watching. We rolled our targets to whatever the first mark is - 3 yards? The instructor told us to load six rounds, leave the guns in single action mode and stop. Then he said to take one shot whenever we were ready (take our time) and stop. Then another. We did the first six one by one, I guess he wanted to make sure we did not have any people who would portray unsafe gun handling. There were two instructors actually walking behind us and tutoring those who did not do so well. Then he said to load six more and stop. Then shoot all six at our own pace. Then roll the targets to 7 yards and load six and stop, then take all six shots at our own pace. And so forth. No one did anything stupid, a couple of people did not shoot great, but we really only felt uncomfortable around one guy who kept asking in class when he could shoot someone. "Well, if I see him breaking into my car, can I shoot him?" "What if he turns around, can I shoot him then?" "What if after he is dead, I arrange him on the ground so that it looks like he was coming at me?" Then he turns to the rest of the class and goes, "Come on, ya'll know you want to shoot someone, right?"

Some scary people out there.
Sheslinger

Min
June 22, 2003, 01:48 PM
Man, the class was so easy...you just had to be there and be awake. Everyone passed, but I wonder if some should have.

Shooting was done at 3 yds, 7 yds, and 15 yds - 50 rounds total from each person. I brought my Kahr PM9 and was able to put 47 rounds in a basketball-sized circle in COM of silhouette. (nothing to brag about). Others could only put 1/2 their rounds inside the circle. The instructor said, you know those holes in the white space of the paper above the shoulder - I call em "laywer holes"!

Most had full-sized 1911's...some were pretty tricked out.

About that Smith and Wesson semi-auto, I used to look down on them, but some models are nice - the 3913 and some others. Lady who had one had an all-stainless 9mm that was actually pretty (finish-wise). I wonder if it was a custom finish. Anyway, but I don't like frame-mounted safeties...

I keep thinking these people will kill themselves or innocent bystanders. (?)

*****
The one New Lic woman (young) CONFESSED that she had an incident one night. She was driving at 3 am on the freeway, when some other car was following her and was harrassing her. So, she rolls down her passenger window, and starts shooting her .380 semi-auto at the other car. The instructor (a sheriff's constable) was dumbstruck. He asked her - "Where do you think those bullets went?" The whole class just about gasped. What's funny was the young woman was very calm about it - and made it sound like the most natural thing in the world.

I don't mean to imply women are incompentent with guns, just these two were notable.

Lone_Gunman
June 22, 2003, 01:51 PM
Training requirements for a ccw permit are bad for the same reason that literacy tests for voting is bad.

They can be used subjectively by bureaucrats to prevent people from exercising their rights.

Training is a personal responsibility, but certainly should not be mandated by the government.

Where in the Second Amendment could you justify mandatory training?

Sharpie1
June 22, 2003, 02:18 PM
For me, one of the biggest challenges of conducting any firearms training class is the guy in there who "knows it all"...

Example:

Quote - "Oh, I've been shooting guns since I was five. I really don't need to learn anything, I'm just going to go through the motions so I can get my permit."

At the beginning of each class, I stress to the students that it is "Knowledge, Skills and Attitude" (as the NRA puts it) that is developed in the course they're taking. And, I tell them that they may not pass the course if they exhibit the improper attitude, even if they score perfectly on their tests.

A bad attitude with respect to firearms is bad enough when you're out and about in public - but it has absolutely NO place in a firearms training class - because it gives other students the wrong impression. It also undermines the safety of the course - if the student perhaps thought he knew enough about guns to not have to obey certain safety procedures.

--tadyson

LiquidTension
June 22, 2003, 02:33 PM
My CWP class wasn't bad. I was one of only 2 people to get a perfect score (test and shooting), and there were lots of bad shots, but nobody did anything really stupid or acted up in any way. Well, I did make a comment about the Thunderwear holster breaking the "don't point at anything you're not willing to destroy" rule, but it was intended to be funny and was taken as such. Pretty uneventful in my case.

Wildalaska
June 22, 2003, 02:58 PM
Oh, so you mean they let people have guns just like specified in that old dusty Constitution thing I read about in elementary school???

Ooops Im sorry I forgot the Constituion has been interpreted to call laws requiring safety courses a violation of the second amendment. I must of missed it when you and the other SCOTUS judges did that....:D

WildironynotsarcasmAlaska

Wildalaska
June 22, 2003, 03:00 PM
They can be used subjectively by bureaucrats to prevent people from exercising their rights.

There is no right to carry a weapon "concealed", nor even under the most liberal reading of the second amendment, will there ever be.

WilddontmixapplesandorangesAlaska

El Tejon
June 22, 2003, 03:10 PM
No, wild, the Second Amendment has nothing to do with carrying arms to defend oneself. The Second Amendment is about fighting the government.

Self-defense is the province of the Ninth Amendment. It matters not how one wishes to, in the words of I say, I say, Chief Justice "it's not about slavery, y'all" Taney, "carry arms wherever one goes", openly or concealed. Why would ever matter in what manner I wish to bear arms?


The concern over concealment traces its roots over controlling violence in the South. Later these same Southern governments expressed these concerns in the Son of Ham laws that they used to control Blacks.

Wild, the Supreme Court has held that testing and registration is a violation of the First Amendment. How can it not be a violation of the Second Amendment?

Erik
June 22, 2003, 04:01 PM
I didn't mind having to provide proof of minimal training to the authorities along with the application for my permit.

I don't mind that others have to do the same.

---

The practical implications of training re the First Amendment vs the Second Amendment would be an interesting debate indeed. I imagine most would not make the parallel that we here might prefer, but it would be interesting none the less.

Lone_Gunman
June 22, 2003, 04:28 PM
Wild,

I see your point.

But do we really want to go down the slippery slope of having a bureaucrat decide who can, and who can't, carry a gun?

I mean, today, we might pass a law saying you must pass a safety course.

But tomorrow some other law maker may decide you also need to pass a psychological test to make sure you are unlikely to commit a crime.

Then someone else comes along and decides you need to pass a "patriotism" test to make sure you arent a terrorist.

My point is, where will it end?

The government will be about as successful regulating gun safety as it is enforcing other laws based on morality.

Gun safety is a personal responsibility and should not be a matter of government jurisdiction.

El Tejon
June 22, 2003, 04:31 PM
Lone, it will end when our masters in government have us in camps.

J Miller
June 22, 2003, 04:36 PM
I didn't mind having to provide proof of minimal training to the authorities along with the application for my permit.

I do mind! I mind that I have to ask the government permission to exersize my rights. I mind that I have to pay the government for permission to have a "permit" to exercize my rights.
I mind.

Before moving to the communist state of IL I lived in AZ. (Long story, don't ask.)
Arizona is an open cary state. So when the ccw laws went into effect I and others asked: Why the he!! should we pay money to get a permission slip (permit) to do what we can already do?
Oh, carrying a concealed gun is different from carrying an exposed gun.......how?

There is no difference. Except in the minds of sheeple. Many gun owners are tickled to be allowed to carry at all. They gladly register themselfs with the State and Federal govt just to do what the constitution says they can already do. They are so concerned about someone seeing that they are carrying a gun that it scares them.

What a bunch of crap.

When I get out of IL, and back to an open carry state, I doubt seriously that I will ask permission of some slimy buerocrat (sp) to exercise my rights.

My apologies to everyone, I couldn't resist ranting on this one.

spacemanspiff
June 22, 2003, 06:35 PM
my CCW class was also filled with those who could barely qualify. some of them were lifelong shooters. i've told this story before, but it could use a retelling.
guy in the lane to my right says the 1911 he is using (that was his fathers and had a lifetime of use) was old, getting worn out, and was very inaccurate. what eh wanted was to get a tricked out racegun like one of his buddies, he shot well with that. but with his father 1911 he was all over the silhouette. up, down, sideways, you name it. at 7 yards. so the instructor takes it to give it a looksee, calls the range hot, and shoots offhand 6 rounds. into one hole smaller than a quarter.
thats the moment you should drop to a prone position and repeat the phrase "i'm not worthy!"

the other shooters that couldnt keep it on the paper were using revolvers. once they were given a semiauto to try, they could get their shots on paper.

yesterday at the range, this guy was showing a woman how to shoot. looked like she kind of knew what she was doign, but she was using a weird weaver stance with her elbows at a 45 degree angle and her wrists were doing another 45 degree angle to get the sights of the glock on target. at 5 yards her rounds kept hitting the ground 5 feet in front of the target.
by the time i finally thought of a tactful way to give some advice they were packing up to leave.
i wasnt doing too much better myself though.

jsalcedo
June 22, 2003, 06:59 PM
Everyone in my CHL class were decent shooters.

Except for one union lawyer lady who complained and whined the whole time and wanted to know if all the rules still applied to her because she was handicapped (300lbs overweight).

A San Antonio police officer gave the class and the gun handling
was near perfect.

It cost me $240 to get my CHL which I think is too high.

All states should have Alaska/Vermont carry I am so frigging sick and tired of having to jump through hoops to get licensed for living my life.

All these laws and rules trying to control what I might do.

Like a silly CHL class is going to keep someone from misusing a gun. Like a drivers training and licensing keeps people from running over homeless people, drunk driving, running red lights etc..

If people were left to their own devices they would become self reliant and self regulating like they were 75 years ago.

Cosmoline
June 22, 2003, 07:11 PM
I've met, even the leftists, know the basics of firearm safety. The tourists are a different matter :D

brookstexas
June 22, 2003, 07:19 PM
If you have to ASK PERMISSION it's not a right, we have fallen victim to the mindset of the antis.
Do you have to ASK PERMISSION to go and buy a book or give your opinion in public (Before Ashcroft for the sake of argument)?
I'm sure Mein Kampf caused more deaths that Smith & Wesson anyway.
Before someone throws out the tired cliche about yelling fire in a movie theater, I do have the right to do so. I also have the consequence of my actions to deal with like anyone exercising ANY right we have.
BT

Bob41081
June 22, 2003, 07:53 PM
Min,
Where did you go for your class. I'm up rof renewal next year. I'm in SW Houston.

Bob

Mannlicher
June 22, 2003, 08:51 PM
Almost all of us were nervous when handling a gun for the first time. Laughing at others who experience what we have ourselves is boorish. I am (almost) astounded at the level of pomposity here.

Those folks you are laughing at, have the same motivation as you do for having a means of protection. Of course, not all of new CCW applicants show up with YOUR years of gun handling, and expert shooting skills, honed during brutal (simulated) combat down at the gun shop.

Lighten up.

12-34hom
June 22, 2003, 09:42 PM
This comes as no suprise to me, at all.

Reminds me of about 90% of people who operate some type of motor vehicles. If they get into a tight situation, THEY HAVE NO CLUE on what they need to do to get out of it with out killing themselfs or someone else.

This experiance come from working as an LEO for 7 years & Tractor Trailer driver. I thought i'd seen some stuiped folks while working traffic details. That is, until i got a view from the wheel of a truck.

Same principal applies to a high % those legally armed. They go to these classes, pass and rarely follow up with any other kind of training, let alone practice.

I proposed having ANYONE who is issued an CCW license should have to qualify AT LEAST twice a year, for whatever duration thier license is issued for.

I have to do this as a peace officer, and i see at least two officers in my county i work in have a very hard time doing so.

12-34hom.

Min
June 22, 2003, 10:13 PM
Where did you go for your class. I'm up rof renewal next year. I'm in SW Houston.

Carter's Country up in Spring. I'd recommend it - the range is nice, and is right next to the classroom. Very convenient. Cost was $99 plus tax.

OF
June 22, 2003, 10:26 PM
I think every law abiding citizen has the right to own and carry a gun but with this right comes a big responsibility.Yeah, the responsibility not to shoot anyone who doesn't deserve it. I love the "you have a right to own a gun, as long as you can pass this test I made up for you."

Beginners scary? Sure they are. So what. If they're such a menace, why isn't the blood flowing in the streets? Why aren't there accidental shootings every week on your block? And even if there were, you still don't have to the power to impose your will on people who have done nothing wrong because you think they might have an accident someday. Let me rephrase that, you shouldn't have that power, but due to the fact that some people think the Constitution means whatever the SCOTUS says it means this year, the gov't does have that power.

How is it again? You have the right to own a gun, with whatever restrictions the SCOTUS (or the democratic majority, or congress, or the town hall or whatever) says you should have...until they change their mind. Then, like magic, your innate, inalienable natural human rights become just what they tell you they are that week - all rights subject to revokation or alteration as educational standards change, of course.

Because something unnerves you is not cause to seek to remove someones rights. Old women have a right to defend themselves whether they can pass a class or not. You do not have a right to be free of fear from them having an accident.

I'm with JMiller: I do mind. I mind very much. And the fact that some people do not mind is cause for alarm.The more knowledgable shooters, the better off we all are.Yep. And the most important knowledge for a shooter to have is what it means to be free. To me, gun safety comes 2nd (no pun intended). Freedom comes first. Make sure those shooters know what that hunk of iron in their hands represents. The difference between a free man and a slave.

That lesson is far more important than any gun safety class can ever hope to be.

- Gabe

Min
June 22, 2003, 10:38 PM
Well, I didn't mean for this to become a gun-control thread. I am, of course, against any type of gun control. Heck, I would love it if Texas passed a law that allows people to carry without a permit (like Alaska).

But, still, if these people have decided to depend for a gun for self-protection, they should be responsible (of their own recognizance mind you) to train themselves, seek training, and become proficient with their firearm.

I'm afraid, however, that many people think guns in real life are like in movies (where most of them see guns in action). Good guys don't miss. Bad guys do. And magazines hold tons of rounds magically.

Double Naught Spy
June 22, 2003, 10:41 PM
You know, you all should be very scared by the people who are getting licenses to carry guns. I have seen some of the same crud y'all have seen, such as the guy that unloaded his carry ammo that he loaded in his gun four years prior when he originally qualified for his CHL. He had not shot his gun in four years and wasn't going to waste his carry ammo to requalify.

With all that in mind, a lot of people never carry after they get their CHLs or do so very rarely. Some have their CHLs people they carry only very rarely, something they have done their entire lives anyway and now they can do so without worry of arrest for unlawful carry.

I would much rather all CHL folks be regulars at the local range, putting a couple of hundred rounds a month down range, say 50 a week, just to stay on top of things. Unfortunately, they don't do it. These folks get and maintain their CHLs as a matter of priveledge and option.

In the grand scheme, you really have extremely little to worry about in regard to potential unsafe gun handling by fellow CHL holders. Your real concern should be with the unlicensed gun carriers coming into your place of work, place you are eating, mall, or even home and trying to do you harm or harm to folks simply in your proximity and end up shooting you by accident because they don't have the first real understanding of gun handling, muzzle discipline, or the like. Comparatively speaking, CHL folks are few in number compared to the bad guys.

DigMe
June 23, 2003, 02:26 AM
Carter's Country up in Spring. I'd recommend it - the range is nice, and is right next to the classroom. Very convenient. Cost was $99 plus tax.

I like Carter's Country, but sheesh...that's an EXPENSIVE CHL class! Over in Central Texas in Gatesville you can get it for 60 bucks and that does include range time, fingerprints and pictures. Most other places I've heard of are about 75 bucks.

brad cook

Min
June 23, 2003, 02:27 AM
Houston is more expensive because the interest and the demand is there.

$100 is the going rate in this area. Harris county has more CCW per capita than any other county in TX I believe...

OF
June 23, 2003, 02:05 PM
But, still, if these people have decided to depend for a gun for self-protection, they should be responsible (of their own recognizance mind you) to train themselves, seek training, and become proficient with their firearm.Sure they should. I think everyone should get as much training as they can handle. Certainly in basic safety, maintenance and handling. But I cannot agree that their ability to exercise their natural right to defend themselves should be tied to them getting that training. I will not force anyone to take a test to exercise a right, and it bothers me that there are so many others who are more than willing to do just that because it makes them feel better or is 'for the greater good of society' or some other nonsense.

Even ignorant people have rights.

- Gabe

Tommy Gunn
June 23, 2003, 04:21 PM
I got a question for the instructors here.

What was the most unusual gun that you have seen brought in for CCW classes?

bdhawk
June 23, 2003, 06:12 PM
that happened to me, too. a very elderly gentleman shot my target. he had a hole in my target and holes all over his, even in the margins of the target not hitting the siloutte at all. yet, the instructor STILL passed him. he scored a 199 out of 250. he screwed me out of a perfect 250 score. i was POed.

on the other hand a sweet little ole lady shot a respectable 222 with a DAO smith revolver. she did not know how to shoot, never have fired a handgun. the instructor worked with her and she did well.

Pebcac
June 23, 2003, 07:17 PM
There was a guy that showed up in my CCW class with his left thumb wrapped up. He had a Walther PPK with him to qualify with. He explained to the instructor that, sure enough, he'd sliced his thumb open with the recoiling slide on the new Walther.

When we go out to the range to qualify, guess what? The guy drops his injured weak-hand thumb right behind the slide again. Luckily for him, the instructor caught it before the call to fire. :rolleyes:

jsalcedo
June 23, 2003, 07:17 PM
I'm not an instructor but in my class I saw a Browning Highpower
in .40S&W with a extended comp that made it look like a longslide.

He said he customized it himself.

bjengs
June 23, 2003, 07:51 PM
I think everyone should get as much training as they can handle. Certainly in basic safety, maintenance and handling. But I cannot agree that their ability to exercise their natural right to defend themselves should be tied to them getting that training. I will not force anyone to take a test to exercise a right, and it bothers me that there are so many others who are more than willing to do just that because it makes them feel better or is 'for the greater good of society' or some other nonsense.

Even ignorant people have rights.
Well said, Gabe. To say that only "someone properly qualified" is entitled to defend their own life in the manner of their choosing is truly despicable, and smacks of Social Planning, IMO.

keyhole
June 23, 2003, 08:00 PM
I believe that training is a good thing, if nothing more than to make people think about what they are doing. When people ask me what I would suggest they have for home defense, I would suggest something, and then tell them to consider what type of ammo, style of gun, what they would do when confronted, during the confrontation, and what they would do afterwords. Which atty they would call, who they have as a bondsman, ( if needed), etc.,.

Most usually thought all they needed was a .44magnum or 9mm, and they were ready to go. A tort lawyers dream.

jmo

bjengs
June 23, 2003, 08:09 PM
To clarify my position:

Training = good.

Mandatory training = despotic.

The Kidd
June 23, 2003, 11:15 PM
I got my CPL in MI last year. I've shot and hunted since I was 13. I HATE that I had to get a permit. I carried anyway 'sometimes'. But I did it because I feel we need to have as many 'good guys' armed and out there as we can.

Yes we should all train, probably more than we do.

MAURICE
June 23, 2003, 11:34 PM
Moparmike,

Call Sturms Indoor Pistol Range, I believe Steve teaches some classes, and he does do the required class for AR concealed carry.

(479)927-2244

He is in Springdale, turn right off of 71 on Randall Wobbe road, right next to the pizza hut, then make another right after you cross the railroad tracks onto Old wire. Not real hard to find, but if you werent looking for it you would never know it as there.

Shoot me an e-mail if you need to.
roberthyatt@hotmail.com

William
June 24, 2003, 01:46 AM
There's someone by the name of clear_cut who has posted the same concern on another discussion site

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=192305

Yes, the same thing happened to that poor guy also, right down to identical replies to the initial posts!!!

You guys should talk, I think.

Moparmike
June 24, 2003, 02:13 AM
Maurice, thank you so much for the info. It will really come in handy. BTW, you wouldnt happen to know what the fees are, would you?

Also, what is the general time inbetween taking the classes and applying for the license? I wouldnt be taking the class for a few months at the earliest, and I wouldnt want to take it twice because I started too early.

This is going to sound INCREDIBLY stupid:rolleyes: , but do you have to own a pistol for the classes?:confused:

edited to add: Please, no flames for the retarded question :).

Flashpoint
June 24, 2003, 02:22 AM
The class I attended consisted of 24 people. Only two of them did not go to church with me. All of had some experience so there was no big issue there. I think the biggest disruption we had was when "Big Jim" asked "How many guns can you carry at once?". We all got this picture of him in tactical gear with about 20 guns strapped to him. LOL:D

Byron Quick
June 24, 2003, 02:47 AM
WildtheskyisfallingAlaska,

Georgia has had CCW for over twenty years now. No training required. Before we had CCW we had open carry with no license and no training...and people DID carry openly.

Look at our demogragphics and the ethnic mix.

Guess what? Lawful carry is not a problem. We're not having shootouts during fender benders nor are untrained folks mowing down everyone around them by mistake.

MAURICE
June 24, 2003, 08:37 AM
As far as scheduling,pirces, etc i do not know, but he does have several different guns you ca rent, including everything from .22s to desert eagles, IIRC.

OF
June 24, 2003, 11:51 AM
do you have to own a pistol for the classes?I don't know about CCW classes, but you can take the NRA Basic Pistol class without owning a gun. It's a good class to help you determine what kind of gun you'd like to buy, also.

- Gabe

ACT
June 24, 2003, 02:15 PM
I got my first trainning with a pistol over fortyfive years ago in the Navy with an old Military Issue Colt 45, that was of questionable linage as to this day I'm guite sure the pistol was wore out as I know I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with it even if I was standing on the inside of the barn. I never could shoot a semi-auto with any degree of accuracy in the military, but if they gave me a revolver I could do a respectable job of qualifying and in the field I was in and at the duty station I was assigned every sailor had to qualify four times a year.

As to the handling of any firearm I've made myself this promise if I ever reach the point where I think I know everything there is to know about firearms that is point where I'll give up all my firearms as that's when I'm going to kill or injure someone or myself.

Now I've owned CCW Permits in both Florida & Washington and I still have one here in Washington, but I seldom Carry with exception of during Hunting Season and the reason for that is to agrivate the Wildlife Officers.

Oh, by the way on the Colt 45, I figured it out why I couldn't hit anything with it, It was because it intimadated me. I was scared of it.

BlackJack
June 24, 2003, 02:57 PM
Most unusual gun brought to a class? Probably a Ruger Single-Six. The lady who brought it received it as a gift long ago and had not fired it. Didn't want to buy another gun. However she manipulated it well and could put quick successive shots into the target, at least up to 6. Worked for her. Another woman brought a Beretta Bobcat (21a) because she couldn't work the slide on anything else. I guess what amazes me most is how few people showed up with snub-nosed revovlers--probably less than 5%. I had guessed at least 50% would have.

Sheslinger
June 24, 2003, 03:10 PM
This is going to sound INCREDIBLY stupid , but do you have to own a pistol for the classes?

edited to add: Please, no flames for the retarded question .



No, you don't. In fact, one guy in our class was an armed guard, and the gun he was given by his employer jammed 4 out of first 6 rounds, so the instructor told all of us to stop and brought him out a Glock to finish qualifying.

Sheslinger

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