Paintball gun pepper spray


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RancidSumo
May 22, 2007, 08:19 PM
have you guys seen those plastic balls that are shot out of paintball guns and are filled with pepperspray and other stuff? I think that they should make them available to civilians. What do you think? Does anyone have experience with them?

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Pax Jordana
May 22, 2007, 10:04 PM
DOG the bounty hunter has a few! I think they're pretty boss.

Though I'm not entirely sure how effective they are - to avoid putting out an eye, you fire at the torso - but the stuff doesn't work well on your torso (at least, no better than regular paintballs)... And then, at in-house distances you might as well have a $10 can of spray - the advantage of distance is negligible until you get out to, say, riot suppression scaled engagements.


This might be more viable for someone already into paintball. Me, I'd prefer something guaranteed to stop. For the cost of your pimped out x-games m4 wannabe (http://www.tippmann.com/product_guide/markerDetails.aspx?categoryid=12), you can own a Mossberg Persuader (and that's list, new) and save yourself a lot of the worry when the rubber meets the road.

But boy, they'd be fun to mess with :)

CWL
May 22, 2007, 11:19 PM
Pepperballs.
http://www.pepperball.com

Not available for civilian use, but you can put yourself on their mailing list in case they do. I wouldn't.

As in the case of all less-lethal solutions, they should be applied with back-up in case it does not work. This means that you should have one or more people behind you armed with real guns, like LEOs do in the real world.

I see no purpose in civilian use for these since I would rather have a real firearm in any situation where I needed to haul a paintball gun around with me.

mrmeval
May 24, 2007, 03:27 AM
When police shot a woman in the face with one. It hit her in the eye. The impact did enough damage to kill her.

Pax Jordana
May 24, 2007, 11:10 PM
MRM- cite that for us? thanks.

mrmeval
May 25, 2007, 04:03 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Snelgrove

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/10/27/bc.bba.fandeath.ap/

yongxingfreesty
May 25, 2007, 04:13 AM
^^ sad story, she's in a better place now.

Plink
May 25, 2007, 06:25 AM
I can't see it for self defense. Using a bulky paintball gun to launch pepper gas balls at a perp is less useful that using a pepper spray unless it's at a distance farther than spray reaches. If it is, then it's time to remove yourself from the area, at least till you can reach a real firearm.

Joe Demko
May 25, 2007, 11:06 AM
I fired one at a sheriff's convention a couple years ago. If conditions are right, when the balls hit the target's torso you get, in effect, a cloud of pepper powder (not gas) surrounding the entire upper body. The stuff is very finely divided; it makes talc look like construction grade sand. It has some very useful applications, but I don't think self-defense is one of them.

Chuckulator
May 25, 2007, 11:28 AM
It wasn't pepperballs that killed that woman. It was a truly wicked version (from Europe?) with a heavy load of bismuth in the front, I believe.

fletcher
May 25, 2007, 02:26 PM
heavy load of bismuth in the front,

Are you serious? Sounds like a BAD purchasing decision to me.

Joe Demko
May 25, 2007, 02:35 PM
She was shot with an FN 303 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_303). I can't link to an image of the ammo from work, but it does contain powdered bismuth as part of its design.

mdao
May 25, 2007, 03:01 PM
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9210/orangenh2.jpg

The FN 303 isn't really a pepperball launcher. It's much closer to a beanbag launching shotgun with the added benefit of chemical payloads.

50 Freak
May 25, 2007, 04:38 PM
Why was she shot in the face? What happened to aiming at the body?

hrgrisso
May 25, 2007, 04:56 PM
IIRC I was in New Hampshire when this happened. The police were using these for crowd control after the Red Sox won. She was in the crowd. It was not an intentional "SHOOT HER IN THE FACE." I believe that the police were popping them up into the crowd. At least that was what was reported in the news.

mdao
May 25, 2007, 06:54 PM
Why was she shot in the face? What happened to aiming at the body?

The officer that killed Victoria Snelgrove testified that he was aiming at another rioter. Really, things that are as funky shaped and slow moving as the FN 303 projectiles are really hard to stabilize, and accuracy suffers as a result.

gezzer
May 25, 2007, 11:30 PM
A few Million was paid to her family by Boston PD and they helped the family with the suit against FN.

The officer in charge retired as he ordered the shooting without any training in the firearm. The girl hurt was NOT a rioter only a citizen who had been to a ball game and was standing by a vendor cart hoping to get a sausage sandwich.

Incompetence always cost the taxpayers money. To bad he did not loose his pension. That would have taught the new regime the true penalty for screwing up.

Now pepper balls are great for training for real with paintball guns!

carebear
May 26, 2007, 12:18 AM
Ironically, there's a whole pile of threads with lots and lots of detail on the incident.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=137302&highlight=snelgrove

But on topic to actual paintballs...

Count me in the "not worth it as a civilian without armed backup in case of failure" camp.

don_hamer
May 30, 2007, 04:31 PM
I think it would be ridiculous to have these available to civilians. Just think of all of the young boys who would be shooting them. It's bad enough with just regular paintballs.

Anteater1717
June 11, 2007, 03:21 AM
You could make your own. No I’m serious you could buy a paintball mold and ingredients to make the shell then fill it with ordinary pepper spray as apposed to paintball paint. Never tried it myself but I am sure it’s possible. Or if you lazy like me just get paintballs and pepper spray and suck out paint with a syringe then inject pepper spray. Just use it in any ordinary paintball gun.

Autolycus
June 11, 2007, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by don hamer:
I think it would be ridiculous to have these available to civilians. Just think of all of the young boys who would be shooting them. It's bad enough with just regular paintballs.


I feel the same way about real guns.:rolleyes:

I am sorry but just because someone may misuse something is not a valid reason for making it illegal for non-LEOs to own.

WeedWacker
June 11, 2007, 03:33 PM
Regulation speed for paintballs at a paintball field is 300 fps. This si because direct hits to the head at high velocities results in possible blackout and brain damage. I have been hit in the head multiple times in one game on several different occasions (forehead, harder than the rest of the skull) and I have felt light headed. I suppose that explains a bit about me :p but anyway I think that police would follow the same safety precautions when using these. And if you had one for HD it would be possible to get a Tippmann Pro Carbine (usually what SWAT and police use) and add a response trigger mod which allows for rapid fire. If you were looking at a concealed carry a PGP pump pistol is small enough but there is somthing made by Tac that is a paint pistol with an integrated 12 gram CO2 cartridge in a clip that holds 8 paintballs I believe.

RancidSumo
June 12, 2007, 05:58 PM
I dont want them for self defense, I just think that they are cool and would be fun to mess around with.

Geno
June 12, 2007, 06:07 PM
True enough. There have been several people killed/disabled by paintballs, and pepper balls. Some foolish people used to freeze them years back. Talk about dangerous.

RancidSumo
June 14, 2007, 01:47 PM
Or even worse, shoot marbles out of them. I heard some kids around here were doing that awhile back. If they shot me with one I would probably have to throw them off Mansface

Vermonter
June 14, 2007, 02:24 PM
How much does a paintball weigh? I want to figure out the ballistics.

Biker
June 14, 2007, 02:57 PM
I could see them being useful for non-lethal animal control.

Biker

RancidSumo
June 14, 2007, 04:04 PM
How much does a paintball weigh? I want to figure out the ballistics.

Not much

seeker_two
June 21, 2007, 08:03 PM
I could see them being useful for non-lethal animal control.


Same here. I'd rather use something like this to chase the neighbor's dog off my property than the Red Ryder BB gun I'm using now (I aim for the butt...) :cool:

jon_in_wv
September 12, 2007, 07:12 PM
Not great for self defense but I work in a prison and I can tell you they are VERY effective. The pepperballs hurt like the blazes. The WILL bruise badly and you will probably bleed. Couple that with the pepper and they work wonders. The inmates have learned about them (the hard way) and we rarely use them now. Looking down that .68 barrel is very intimidating and a hopper full of 100 balls can be very convincing. Usually three of four hits does wonders for the attitude.

Pax Jordana
September 12, 2007, 10:23 PM
Alright Jon, cos you had to dig this up :)

I assume you've had training in their deployment and use..

How far away are you when using one of these things? Are you wearing a mask? How many rounds does it take to incapacitate someone, what can go wrong, how bad is maintenance?


I'm still thinking that HD or SD shooting distances put you in awfully close for a system like this.

Aries-
September 13, 2007, 02:44 AM
being a paintball player myself. i wouldent bother. paintball guns are so inacurate its to dangerous shooting a someone further than 20 ft. as with the woman getting hit in the eye and killing her. thats the reason paintball players wear the masks. to keep that from hapening, not gonna say "hey can you put this mask on so i can shoot you ?" sorry. a can of bear repelant would work better for self deffence, it shoots further, and is just as effective as pepper spray.

paintball guns are defanetly not toys, and really should never be shot at someone not wearing protective gear (atleast a certified mask) marbles as someone mentioned could do a hell of a lot of damage. a paintball shot at 280ft per second at 10 feet will break skin quite nicely. a marble that close... it would come pretty close to breaking a bone depending where it hit.

Mannix
September 13, 2007, 06:59 AM
If you were looking at a concealed carry a PGP pump pistol is small enough but there is somthing made by Tac that is a paint pistol with an integrated 12 gram CO2 cartridge in a clip that holds 8 paintballs I believe.
The pistol is made by Tiberius Arms. One of their models is called the Tac 8, but the Blackbird(improved version marketed towards LE) would be the one to use for something like this. Cost is $315 for the gun + an extra mag and a leg holster, and good luck finding the pepper balls.

This SD solution seems somewhat mall ninja-ish to me, though. I think OC would be far more practical.

Cool gun though. (http://rap4.com/paintball/os/black-bird-paintball-pistol-package-with-marker-p-1709.html)

Zoogster
September 13, 2007, 07:26 AM
Not good for defensive use. I have had the opportunity to play with these before. The pepper balls themselves are not like paint balls. They are very thin walled plastic balls. When they impact this thin hard brittle plastic shatters and disperses the dry powder. The thin plastic can make sharp shards that is the cause for the bleeding or cuts jon_in_wv mentions.
However the powder itself is only going to be effective if it gets into the eyes or other place with moisture or is inhaled. Dry irritants are much slower acting because they penetrate the skin far worse. Since you are not shooting it at the face how likely it is to get powder into effective areas is left to chance. Even then the softer the point of impact the less reliably the powder will be dispersed from the shattering ball.

Effectively detering inmates with a pain deterent is different than being capable of saving your bacon from someone. For non lethal force a pepper spray is going to provide more benefits than this.
The main advantage to this is range. For riot control that outweighs it being less effective at close range. In most situations this is being employed the officer is not going to be in immediate danger. It is more for strong arming crowds or individuals and making them comply to commands with the incentive of pain, or providing a short term distraction so they can be subdued or arrested.

For individual non lethal defense sprays provide a tactical advantage of blinding the individual momentarily in addition to pain. Tasers can be more or less effective depending on the individual. Since self defense when warranted is usualy going to be up close, thier advantages outweigh any slight increase in range provided by balls of seasoning.

hopkin
September 13, 2007, 03:39 PM
Instead of a paintball, how about a teargas/pepper spray pistol? My mother found one of these when she moved house in Germany and it's fantastic,a little 'chiefs special' revolver that fires blanks containing pepperspray. It sends a small cloud of pepperspray about 20 feet and the fact you're 'shooting' at someone tends to loosen bowels.

fletcher
September 13, 2007, 03:43 PM
^ I've never heard of that - sounds interesting. Do you recall the name of the manufacturer for those rounds?

I'd hate to have to clean the pepper out of my revolver, though :p

jon_in_wv
September 13, 2007, 08:46 PM
I said it works great in a PRISON. For riot control, breaking up fights, etc... I wouldn't recommend it for SD or HD. Thats what guns are for.

Also you can't compare the pepperball round to a paintball. It has a much greater effect. Also the ones I have certified with have been quite accurate within the distance they are meant to be used. Outside of that distance you can lay down a large area of fire that would also deliver pepper to the target.

I'm not a paintball expert or even a pepperball expert, I'm simply stating the fact that it works and it works well. It has proven much more effective than many other gimmicky tools that have been contrived for our countries prisons.

And, Pax my carry or SD gun is an M&P 9C and my HD gun is a 12 gauge, not the pepperball gun. That will probably end up as a wall hanger.

Zoogster
September 13, 2007, 10:08 PM
Instead of a paintball, how about a teargas/pepper spray pistol? My mother found one of these when she moved house in Germany and it's fantastic,a little 'chiefs special' revolver that fires blanks containing pepperspray. It sends a small cloud of pepperspray about 20 feet and the fact you're 'shooting' at someone tends to loosen bowels.

Would be as effective as pepperspray, louder and more intimidating, but also subject to the same rules of using lethal force for a civilian. Shooting at someone with a firearm is shooting at someone with a firearm under the law. It does not matter if it is loaded with lead, rubber, rocksalt, or pepperspray. So by the time you can legaly use that the situation has progressed beyond non lethal force.

For law enforcement they already have good tools for short range use that would work better like pepperspray in fire extinguisher size containers, and tasers. Beyond the effective ranges of those devices the pepperspray fired at velocity would have dispersed too much to be reliable fired from a firearm. Now from a cannon...
I can see it now, the pepperspray cannon, blasts a gallon of spray instantly turned into a fine aerosol in a general direction. Would be great until a pebble got into it and turned it into a lethal device.

jahwarrior
September 14, 2007, 01:31 PM
kimber makes a device called the lifeact: http://www.life-act.com/

sounds like something worth checking out.

hopkin
September 18, 2007, 02:33 PM
Fletcher - I can't remember who made the rounds but it was Umarex, the German airgun mnaker, who made the gun that fired them. It might have been Umarex who made the rounds too, as I rememeber seeing some Umarex blanks for 'cleaning' the revolver. The gun was a blank firer, not a real pistol.

Zoogster, thanks for the info. I've mentioned these previously to friends in the US - well, California - and will make sure they check out the law before using them.

woodybrighton
September 27, 2007, 11:27 AM
frozen paint balls are a spectacular way of way of getting people to go away
when a baton round would be too much.
certain little gits who liked to throw bricks at passing patrols in ulster from the top of an old factory didn't do it again

fletcher
September 27, 2007, 12:37 PM
^^ Yep, looks like they make it:

http://www.umarex.com/index.php?id=products&L=en&L=en&encryptionKey=&haupt_id=2&unter_id=3&variante_id=4.1346&cHash=9c646a77f8

ray_ray
September 27, 2007, 03:17 PM
i have thos umarex pepper cartridges, they have 120mg of Nonivamid (pava) each.

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