[telewinz]

If you had to go into combat with just a bolt-action rifle using only iron sights which would it be military issue or a commercial sporting rifle?

[Ian]

No 4 Mk I. Need I say more? :)

[Preacherman]

No way I'd take a civilian rifle if I had any say in the matter. A military rifle is built to a completely different set of specifications in terms of the punishment it has to stand up to. What civilian bolt-action rifle that you know of could stand up to the following:

1. Function reliably in the midst of dirt, dust, snow, mud, rain, freezing cold, baking sun, and every other environmental problem you can think of, and remain operational with minimal cleaning and maintenance?

2. Be capable of firing with dirty, old, and varying lots of ammunition, to military accuracy, all day and all night, under conditions described in (1) above?

3. Be capable of shooting up to 100 rounds an hour or more, while retaining zero and not overheating to the point of becoming unreliable?

4. Be "soldier-proof" - if a soldier can break something, he will! (Ask me how I know this... :D )

5. Be capable of being used to support a bayonet, or be wielded as a club, to butt-stroke an opponent without suffering damage or being rendered inoperable?

6. Do all this for a service life of up to 20 or 30 years, with only basic arsenal cleaning and storage facilities?

Sounds like no commercial rifle in the world could stand up to that sort of abuse... and that's not even thinking about ammo capacity, ease of rapid reloading, etc.

[Sir Galahad]

Mosin-Nagant 91/30.

[Mike Irwin]

Ian stole my thunder...

[makdaddy03]

Finn M39 Mosin Nagant

[fallingblock]

I'd go so far as to specify the Fazakerley-made No.4 mk2:)

Post war build quality and materials without the wartime substitutions for sights, etc.

[GD]

Ditto on the Finn M39. Very accurate, very hardy, and lots of ammo around.

[Chris Rhines]

Me being a civillian, any rifle I carry would be a civillian rifle, right? ;)

Re: Preacherman's concerns (and to play Devil's advocate a bit...)

I suspect that a well-built Winchester M70 or Remington 700 (to say nothing of high-dollar customs like the Dakotas) would serve with aplomb in a combat environment. Civillian rifles get taken on safari in Africa and Alaska all the time, and most work quite well under extreme environmental conditions. In addition, just about every military sniper rifle in the US inventory is built on a civillian rifle action. I don't remember hearing anything about M24s or M40s failing under hard use.

With a civillian rifle, one would get useable iron sights as opposed to non-adjustable military ones (yes, I know there are some exceptions, but most civvie sights are far superior to any iron sight ever issued by the military,) better ergonomics, and much better accuracy. For the kind of shooting I plan on doing in a real fight, I'd much prefer a scout-type rifle built on a Model 70 action.

That said, I would not feel underarmed with an '03A3 or a Lee-Enfield.

- Chris

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me the primary difference is the stock. Then, the quality of the sights and trigger. I grant you can't hang a bayonet on a NIB Model 70...

Probably, the biggest "in the trenches, with mud" problem for a purely sporting rifle would be for those with a separate trigger housing unit. Easy to get grungy and have rust start; hard to clean. Next would be those ejectors which are spring-loaded pins in the bolt.

The 1917 Enfield has some of the best protection of the sights of any...

Art

[nathan]

handy and easy to align sights

[Kentucky Rifle]

..was my tool in the last war I was in. Had a wood stock, too.

KR

[Hkmp5sd]

The rifle (preferably military) that uses the ammunition most in abundance where I was located. If that happens to be in the US with 7.62 NATO, then a Remington 700.

[telewinz]

It seems to me that a chamber full of mud will put a military AND a commercial bolt-action out of action. The loose tolerances claimed as an advantage for military bolt actions sound like an excuse for cheap /rapid mass production. Bayonets are not an issue in the 21st century, I'll take a Remington 700 action over an enfield or mauser anyday IMHO. As noted before, those fancy / precision double & bolt action rifles performed just fine against 4 legged dangerous game under harsh condition in Africa.

[Art Eatman]

Looking back over a fair number of years of wandering around with a rifle, in various kinds of country and all manner of weather, I'd say that strength against breakage in a "Trip, stumble and fall" drill is a major parameter.

And don't knock a bayonet. It's a pretty good crowd-control gadget. Goose somebody and say, "Move it!" and the results are guaranteed.

A bayonet is a help on guard duty when you're really, really fatigued. You fix the bayonet, and then hold the rifle with the point under your chin. If you nod off, you've got an automatic wakeup call. That's a lot better than sleep and die.

:), Art

[BenW]

I dare say my Remington 788 would handle things well, but if not I guess I would choose one of my Mauser 98 derivatives (only not with those teeny tiny little sights).

[Drue]

I'm with Ian, No 4 Enfield.


Drue

[Slater]

Any of the major military-issue bolt guns; Lee-Enfield, Mauser 98, Mosin-Nagant series. The Lee-Enfield was used by Afghan tribesman against the Russians in the 1980's (heck, maybe against us also). It's utterly reliable and that old .303 packs a decent wallop.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Anything I could find (or "midnight requisition") a sufficient ammount of suitable ammunition for would be my choice. If it were up to me alone, it's got to be something I'm already familiar with such as a Mauser or Enfield...provided I have such suitable ammunition. No large stock of ammo? Use what you have on hand to secure a 'more suitable' weapon for which supplies are more readily available. See "Liberator pistol".

Regards,
Rabbit.

[goon]

I would probably go Enfield as well. Best bolt-action battle rifle ever made. Ten rounds as opposed to five in a sporter and about as tough and reliable as a rock.
In terms of longevity, I think that the old Enfields and Mosin-Nagants have most everything beat.
IIRC, they are still in service in Afghanistan.
I am pretty sure that both have been in service in three different centuries. Since 1891 for the MN and around 1895 for the Enfield. The Mauser is up there too.
Impressive, no?
I doubt that there will still be M-16's seeing regular use 100 years from now.

[Mannlicher]

US Enfield, 1917. Worked well for Sgt York. It would work well for me also. One of the best battle rifles in history. The .30/06 is without equal.

[LAMPROPELTIS]

1. NO1 MKIII Because of 10rd capacity 2nd M1917 ENFIELD:)

[Gordon]

In the 80's survivalist days I thought the following : 1917 enfield because of extractor, 30-06 and nice sights and general strength. I also bought a 1934 Brazilian carbine in 7mm mauser as it would be a great load your own guerilla gun. I have a MK 5 jungle carbine , but I sporterized it into about a perfect 'rough ' gun. I have a Sako M-39 but it is too long for my tastes and m-44 are too rough for me. The O3a4 is too specialized and worth too much. Swiss K-31 is cool if ammo was available.

[Snaps]

I've played with some military sniper rifles that were all built. Great toys

[Vladimir Berkov]

Well, for one thing, most commercial bolt action rifles today doesn't even come with iron sights, and if they do, they are usually inferior.

I would say No I Mk III for me as well.

[Tamara]

U.S. 1917 "Enfield".

Those that think modern sporters come with "iron sights" have obviously never handled a 1917. ;)

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'd not feel unarmed with an 03A3, a number4mk1, or a 1917.

I'd rather have a pre 64 model 70 with redfield sights over any of the mausers, since they had horrible sights.

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

I'd like a #4 Mk. 1*, like one of the ones Savage built for Lend-Lease. The "*" mods made for easier manufacture and easier field stripping. Gotta love that ladder peep sight too. Of course, I might be biased by the fact that I have one already.

Next in line is an Ishapore #1 Mk. III 2A1, for it's 7.62 chambering, better stripper clips, and it's 12-round (Rather than 10.) magazine capacity. I would really miss that peep sight, though.

Both have very quick bolt operation, comparitively large magazine capacity, shoot a perfectly adequate cartridge, and have a heritage of superb reliability through not one but TWO World Wars, one of which involved a great deal of swimming around in muddy trenches. They can survive being dropped, also. Try THAT with any commercial rifle and see where it shoots afterwards.

Third runner up is a K-98k. Those are really slick too. 8mm Mauser rocks.

[Kaylee]

seems to me the ideal compromise would be a partially sporterized milsurp. You get the "built like a tank" aspect of the military rifles without all the extra weight. Clean up the trigger, install some decent sights if necessary, maybe even restock in modern polymer and/or add a scope rail if you're so inclined.

Alternately, you could take the real military approach and take commercial rifles and pull out all the parts you think might break and replace 'em with beefier ones.


So I guess my answer is.... perfection lies in between. :)


-K

[Dave Markowitz]

No.4 Mk.I. In particular the one made at Fazarkerly in 1944, then FTRed in 1948, and which now resides in my gun closet.

--Fast, short action
--Superb sights
--10 shot mag
--Heck for stout
--Minute-of-human in my hands to 300 meters
--.303 Mk.VII is perhaps the deadliest of the old full-power battle rifle rounds, due to the FMJ bullet with the AL filler underneath the tip, making it longer than an all-lead core, enhancing the tumbling.

[Sir Galahad]

My Finn M-39 is what I'd pick.

[Jaeger]

#4 Mk1 or 2. No doubt about it.

[Lancel]

Lee-Enfield No. 4 (Mk 1, 1*, 1/2 or 2)

Larry

[Dionysusigma]

Slap an aftermarket sporter Monte Carlo stock on a 91/30. You're set. :)

[Andrew Wyatt]

I've changed my vote. Number 4 mk1 all the way.


10 round magazines, quick bolt, and bayonet lugs.

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

The Ruger K77 bolts have a very tight mauser-type action. I think it would hold up just fine. In .308, ammo is easy. I have not seen too much 7.62x54 around.

[Devonai]

I'll throw my hat into the No. 4 Mk I ring, if only for the fact that it's the only bolt action rifle I own or have any significant experience with.

I have some limited experience with Savage bolt actions, and based on that I wouldn't feel terribly disadvantaged with one in .308.

[Spieler]

Since I have more experience with the military weapons as opposed to the civy hunting guns, I would feel good hefting either my Enfield No. 4 or Mauser 98k.

[sanchezero]

I recently took my civvie bolt gun on a field trip.

http://www.snipershide.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001602

It did OK.

:)

[4v50 Gary]

Does the Remington 700 VSS count enough as a commercial sporter? I'm with the shoot 'n scoot crowd. One shot & skedaddle because a rifleman doesn't stand much of a chance against counter-battery fire, airstrikes, helicopter gunships, naval gunfire support, etc.

[MagKnightX]

I would take a Mosin-Nagant 91/30, on three conditions: 1. The sights were adjusted for use without the bayonet and a 50yd setting was added, 2. it had a newly made, but same-as-the-old-ones stock, and 3. plenty of stripper clips and ammunition.

edit: Actually, amend that: The front sight could be easily switched between bayonet and non-bayonet, and the sights would also be adjustable for windage.

[C.R.Sam]

General purpose bolt action battle rifle....
Enfield, with a lot of close seconds.

Note....
Most good military rifles are built to very CLOSE tolerances. With wide clearance where appropriate. Insures adequate function under adverse conditions and a high degree of parts interchangeability.

Sam

[AZRickD]

Fear me.

Fear my Ishapore.

[Marko Kloos]

Even though most civilian sporting rifles have a higher accuracy potential than military bolt guns, I'd reach for my Enfield No.4 if I had to pick a bolt-action rifle for social purposes.

[longtom4570]

Springfield trapdoor 45-70:what: :evil:

[Futo Inu]

I too would not totally discount the potential need/utility in having a bayonet. When ammo runs out, a good spear is better than nothing. Not to mention if being bonzai'ed, and can't reload fast enough.

[Ala Dan]

Give me the same Winchester model 70 (and set-up)
that Gunny SGT. Carlos Hathcock used in 'Nam!:uhoh: :D

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Soap]

Out of the ones in my cabinet: Remington 700P w/ Leupold VX-II Tactical 3-9x40mm Mil Dot.

[gander]

May I suggest the writings of Col. Cooper. He mentions the the bolt stop of most commercial rifles is inadequate. Specifically, combat with a bolt action requires cycling the bolt "briskly". Invariably the bolt stop breaks and takes your rifle out of action. Makes for a really bad day.

[keederdag]

#4 Mk2 Yea baaaaby Yea! Or even better one of the 7.62 Enfield Enforcers. #$%#'in hard to beat!:evil:

[cracked butt]

Of the military bolt actions I'm familiar with, I'd take my 03A3.
Very accurate
good sights
fast slick action
30-06 ammo can be found in any store that sells sporting goods in the country.

[lee n. field]

No 4 Mk I. Need I say more?

That, or my Ishapore 2A. 10 rounds magazine (or is it 11, or 12? reports differ), 7.62x51, with a sight graduated out to (an optimistic) 2000 yards.

[Skunkabilly]

http://www.sigarms.com/img/pic_rifle_blaser_r93.gif

If I'm going to die, I'm going to look good doing it!!

[Kaylee]

I too would not totally discount the potential need/utility in having a bayonet. When ammo runs out, a good spear is better than nothing. Not to mention if being bonzai'ed, and can't reload fast enough.

Seems to me from a weight standpoint, one is better off with a compact-scoped/backup iron sighted mountain-type rifle, a knife, and say a semi-compact Glock or P99 or som'n. knife is easier than a bayonet for all those little cutting things in the woods, and it would seem to me that a pistol beats a spear for "oh my God they're right HERE" moments.

Now granted, I dunno if I'd equip an army that way (especially fifty years after bolt actions were dropped. :) )... but on an individual level it makes more sense to me.

-K

[VG]

If those were my choices, I'd cheat and take a Garand or other semi-auto, anyway.

[Nightcrawler]

Well, Kaylee, if you're going to make them carry a knife, you might as well put the attachments on it so it can be mounted as a bayonet. They don't HAVE to be 17" long, you know.

Bayonets make your weapon that much harder to snatch, too. Awfully discouraging.

[Kaylee]

Well, Kaylee, if you're going to make them carry a knife, you might as well put the attachments on it so it can be mounted as a bayonet. They don't HAVE to be 17" long, you know.

Which again, makes sense if you're equipping an army, watching a budget, and are restricted for some reason to boltguns.

For the individual... I can't agree. Mostly 'cause the mounting points for a bayonet necessitate extra weight in the forearm, and screw up your zero when mounted. A sporter profile rifle makes more sense for that application. Lighter, handier, and less to worry about when maintaining accuracate performance over longer periods of abuse. Essentially... do you want a spear that shoots, or a rifle? ;)

Bayonets make your weapon that much harder to snatch, too. Awfully discouraging.

So are a couple 9mms :)

-K

(who's been reading entirely too much Cooper lately. :p )

[Okiecruffler]

Mine would have to be a military, I don't have any civy bolt actions unless you count my old Glenfield Mod 10.

And my choice is easy, one of my M44's, perferably the Hungarian. More than adaquate powered cartridge, close range flame thrower, and I can't leave the bayonet laying around somewhere. And you can't argue with a good butt stroke from a thick metal butt plate to calm someone down.

[Sgt]

Kaylee,

With all due respect, why is it that you cannot simply answer the question that is asked in these threads.....The question was very simple and you just could not decide, so you tryed once again to "have it your way" Come on, combine the two types by taking a civilian rifle and putting in what did you say, beefier parts? :) I mean, the question is so simple.....

Oh and you also wrote...For the individual... I can't agree. Mostly 'cause the mounting points for a bayonet necessitate extra weight in the forearm, and screw up your zero when mounted. A sporter profile rifle makes more sense for that application. Lighter, handier, and less to worry about when maintaining accuracate performance over longer periods of abuse. Essentially... do you want a spear that shoots, or a rifle?
Seriously, where did you get this stuff......we're talking about a bayonet, on a MILITARY RIFLE...you're talking about some odd ball, home built, basement project civilian/military/sci fi channel/ x-files super weapon, that's straight out of the movie Tremors....And for the record.....if you are low on ammo, or completely out and you mount your bayonet to help repel an enemy charge.....what bleepin' difference does it make, if it changes your "zero" (I think you mean bullet impact) 1 moa? Huh? This isn't hollywood....if they're close enough to stab, they're too close to worry about your zero :scrutiny:

And for the record, I haven't been reading any Cooper lately, and I find it insulting to men in general!!! The fact that you think it's ok to insult us, but heaven forbid, if we don't agree with you....well...NOT everyone agrees with cooper....on every subject, but at least he knows something about the subject he's commenting on/moderating on. :banghead:

[Nightcrawler]

Um...maybe I'm just not very sensative, but I certainly didn't find anything offensive in Kaylee's post. I'd prefer the ability to mount cold steel on just about any rifle, but it's nothing worth arguing about. :confused:

[Kaylee]

insulting? huh? :confused:
what'd I say that's insulting?
aaah.....OH... I got it. Must have phrased that badly. I meant I must have been reading too much Cooper lately, as some of the ol' guy's seeming to rub off. Him'n McBride... :) Sorry, I thought that was clear.

Further, the original question was:

If you had to go into combat with just a bolt-action rifle using only iron sights which would it be military issue or a commercial sporting rifle?

Now, leaving aside for the sec I don't intend to go into combat and anyone who'd try to send my pansy femme tuckus into combat would be either flippin' insane or monumentally desperate .... :)

I answered with what I, personally, thought would be the best choice for an individual equipping him or herself for some kinda extended dust-up. That was answering the question as I read it. (Though I see on rereading I missed the part about no glass. silly me. :) )

Now, ask "what would be the best choice for equipping an army restricting the choice to bolt-action milsurps or modern off-the-rack sporters" ... the answer's gonna be different.

-K

[Sgt]

Nightcrawer, I disagree!!
Everytime I see a post of Kaylee's, there's an argumentative statement, written somewhere in it....Oh, I know...she comes off oh so sweet while telling you how dumb you are for not doing things her way.....sweet as sugar, or not...she's still an opinionated person and if she can't defend her positions based on fact, instead of feelings, then she should keep her opinions to herself. She obviously wasn't in the Military, but due to the "Moderator" title she has, she would have us believe she's an expert on Military weaponry and tactics...... Give me a break!!

[Sgt]

Kaylee, if you want to start a new thread on that topic fine, but why do you feel it necessary to hijack everyone else's and make them about you?

[Okiecruffler]

It seemed like such a nice little thread.

OT hijack here, I once read a case study about an insect that got lodged in someones rectum, seems that the more the doctors did to try and remove it, the farther it crawled up in there.

I still say my M44 will beat Kaylee's mountain rifle/knife/pistol combo.:neener:

[Sgt]

Okie, Was that story related from your own personal experience? Was the removal process painfull? Have you recovered psycologically? I hear that stuff really screwed ol' richard gere up!!! Best of luck!!!

Get Well Soon

[Marko Kloos]

Get off the cross...the other kids need the wood to build a treehouse.

Oh, and remember that thing about "personal attacks" in the Rules of Conduct?

[seeker_two]

Sgt: !GEEEZSH! Did Kaylee turn you down at the Homecoming Dance or something?.... :what:

I think she's got some valid points. I'd much rather have an extra pistol or fighting blade (i.e. Ka-Bar, tomahawk,etc.) than a bayonet attachment. More options, you see...:cool:

Also, have you ever been jabbed HARD w/ a rifle barrel? It will get your attention.... :evil:

I'd take a bayo IF it was permanently attached--like Okiecruffler's M44, but I wouldn't feel naked w/o it...:cool:

[Skunkabilly]

Also, have you ever been jabbed HARD w/ a rifle barrel? It will get your attention.... \

OK Seeker_two, tell us the story! :D

[Nightcrawler]

Again, If you're going to carry a big knife like a Ka-Bar, may as well have bayonet attachments on it.

Otherwise, I'd carry a small knife, probably 4" or less, to use for basic utility work. The way I see it, you're not that likely to need a fixed bayonet, but you're less likely still to need a big combat knife (not to mention a bayonet mounted on a rifle is, at least to me, preferable to a knife in the hand, as a weapon of last resort).

My opinion, though.

[telewinz]

Wow, I just read Kaylee's post (and being an expert at stirring things up:D) I fail to see anything out of line in her post to draw the harsh response. Do you want to talk about WACO again and calm things down:D ?

[JShirley]

1917, if iron sights are dictated.
Personally, I'd like a 17" knife, though not necessarily for use on the rifle. :)

John

[Art Eatman]

Odd-funny: You go to the CQB forum, and folks talk about how a guy with a holstered pistol is very vulnerable to a knife-guy from 21 feet on in. Seems to me that a mounted bayonet adds to this death-distance. And if the target fella has a slung rifle on his shoulder, how fast can he "draw"?

Ever done bayonet drill with a WW I or WW II rifle? Wanna figure out how to stop a guy who banzais at you from some 20 feet or so? I don't.

Art

[Okiecruffler]

And if you don't have a bayonet, what are you going to roast your marshmellows with? And since they make a semi auto rifle so much more dangerous that they outlawed them, they must be pretty deadly.

[seeker_two]

Skunkabilly: You've heard about "falling on your sword." It made a whole lot of sense to me one day when, while having my SMLE sporter leaning against a chair, I tripped over my big feet & fell. The muzzle caught me right under the sternum & took the breath right out of me! Fortunately, the chamber was empty & the mag elsewhere... :what:

Couldn't laugh about it for a week afterward--too painful...:(

Okiecruffler:

And if you don't have a bayonet, what are you going to roast your marshmellows with?

There you go being all PRACTICAL again. I'll acquiesce to this point, but you haven't lived until you've fried SPAM on a hot axe blade...:D

[goon]

No matter what kind of a fight I'm in, I would do my best to stay out of sight while putting holes in the enemy.
I have never been a spectacular marksman, but I am pretty damn good on a good day.
A scope isn't a necessity as long as I have my glasses.
I would go with the Finn M-39.
Well proven by some of the best guerillas that the world has ever seen and it fires a powerful round as well. The ammo is cheap enough to shoot it quite a bit and to stockpile 500 rounds or so without too much trouble.
And mine is deadly accurate.
I would pick it hands down.

[keederdag]

Kaylee can be as offensive as she wants, as far as I'm concerned. I LOVE TO TAKE ABUSE FROM WOMEN...heck I'm just happy if a girl talks to me. THE DAG:D

[Nightcrawler]

heck I'm just happy if a girl talks to me.

Hear hear! :o

[Andrew Wyatt]

I think there's a reason Kaylee became a moderator, and I doubt the reason is because Oleg is a bad judge of character. Kaylee Takes time out of her day to moderate on this forum (and deal with abuse from people), and she deserves our respect for doing so.

[Kaylee]

awww.... you guys are sweet..
I'll be sure to get your bribe checks in the mail ..umm... tomorrow...

now... to get back on topic..

seeker... ouch.. :(

Okie... *heh* rifle to rifle I dunno, but if we're talking your skill with your M44 against mine with aforementioned hodgepodge... I'm reckonin' you're right. :) And yeah, the marshmallows are a good point... hrmm... how long does it take for the cosmoline aftertaste to go away? :)




-K

[telewinz]

There are GIRLS on THR? In that case my K-Bar (WW2) would be my first pick.:D

[Art Eatman]

Naw, telewinz, it's just a fignewton of your imagininooshun.

You just think Tamara is a "she". Actually, after he retired from the NFL, he became an incredibly adept hacker. He's now on contract with the NSA to test their system security. This level of skill allows him to backtrack an email address to the ISP database, finding the name and address of the mailer. "Tamara's" wealth allows flying his private plane to that city, and visiting any THR problem-child flamer...A 6'-8", 360-pound apparition in biker regalia walking through one's front door tends to be an attention-getter--particularly when the door is closed.

You can learn a lot at THR.

:D, Art

[Okiecruffler]

Cosmoline ain't an aftertaste, It's a seasoning.

[keederdag]

I dont Care if we stay on topic.... I just wana talk to a girl about guns.......WAAAAAAAAAAA. God where can a get one like that?:D

[Tamara]

Cosmoline ain't an aftertaste, It's a seasoning.

Heh.

Now that is sigline material. :D

[Dave Markowitz]

And if you don't have a bayonet, what are you going to roast your marshmellows with?

That's what your cleaning rod is for, silly. :D

[seeker_two]

Kaylee:
seeker... ouch..

Actually, it was more like

!!!OWWCH!!!
:what: :what: :what:

Okiecruffler: I don't know about cosmoline, but Hoppes #9 is a pretty nice aftershave...;)

keederdag: You & Skunk should get together one Saturday night & troll the SWAT bars for tactical chicks...:cool:

BTW, what were we talking about again? :confused:

And how does one get iron sights for a sightless civvy rifle, anyway?

[Feanaro]

First, I would pee myself at the thought of going into "battle" with a bolt action rifle in a world full of assault rifles. Then I would choose a military bolt action, preferably a Mauser type. And pray. A lot.

[Okiecruffler]

Even if I had a good battle rifle, I wouldn't be going "into battle". The SHTF, and you wankers can storm the front all you want, this boy is heading for a hole in the hills, hole up until an organized resistance forms then come back down.

And Tamara, I believe you are right.

[keederdag]

Where be the SWAT bars? I'm game........MMMMMMMMmmmmm..SWAT-Chicks.:D

[Kaylee]

sorry guys... too much topic drift. Feel free to try again if y'all want to go over the original topic s'more.

locked for OT. :)

-K

(and hope you find your tacti-chick keeder. :) )