[machinecraig]

Hello,
I've got a Remington 870 for home defense, and also have two small kids that I want to keep safe from the 870. Currently, the gun is in a zippered gun case with a trigger lock on it. It's empty, and the ammo is stored in a different closet. Given that the time to getting it up and going is probably a minute or two and involves multiple rooms in the house, it doesn't seem ideal.

How does the following sound:
1) Gun mounted on a vertical mount inside the closet (just to the right of the door), high enough that our little ankle biters would need a chair to get it down.
2) Vertical gun mount doesn't have a lock, but shotgun would have a combination triggerlock on it.
3) Gun would be kept loaded but with nothing in the chamber (or perhaps a snap cap) with the hammer down (so it would be ready to rack slide to put a shell in the chamber).
Here's an example of the vertical mount I'm talking about (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat602007-cat601048&id=0041643228339a&navCount=1&podId=0041643&parentId=cat601048&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IH&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat601048&hasJS=true).

Does this sound safe enough - would you want your (perhaps hypothetical) little kids visiting a house with a gun stored like this? What are other people doing to maintain access to a shotgun while keeping their kids safe?

[Scorpiusdeus]

I'm having the same issue. I would love to find a bed rail mount for under the bed. It would have to have a lock though.

[ArmedBear]

That's why my 870 sits in the gun safe with a hunting barrel on it.:)

Pistols are just more convenient and easier to secure in a quick-access lockbox.

On the other hand, the electronic lock I have on my long gun safe (Sentry, not expensive) opens real quick. If we could have gotten the thing upstairs, I'd keep the 870 loaded in it.

The kids notwithstanding, you don't exactly want to come home and find an intruder is facing you with your own 870 in his hands. I've never understood people who think that leaving a loaded gun, unsecured, in a relatively obvious place in their home, when nobody is home, for an intruder to find, contributes to their safety.:)

[Smitty in CT]

I know it may amount to sacrelidge, but, Mossberg sells a wall mounted locking "clamp" that might suit your needs....
http://www.kilwell.co.nz/loc-box_closet.jpg
I have three boys at home....I prefer to keep my guns in a gun safe in my bedroom, LOCKED, with the combination is partially complete, I just have to finish the combo open the door and I'm ready to go....

I have even seen "old" school lockers that were converted to make-shift safes. Locked up...anywhere, is better than unlocked and seperated from the ammo, if there are kids around. If there are no kids around...Keep it under your pillow:)

[Chuck R.]

I use a V-Line long gun rifle case for my Benelli M1S90.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a5/CFRHunter/X-Mas060958.jpg

http://www.vlineind.com/html/shotgun_case.html

The gun is completely enclosed and it has a 5 button manual simplex lock, so it’s quick to open while keeping the gun secure. I also use one of their pistol safes for my HD handgun and set the combinations the same. There’s plenty of room for the gun, extra ammo and even a handgun in the large case.

Chuck

[machinecraig]

I hear you on the handgun vs the 870, ArmedBear - and agree that the current gun situation (in the cliched corner of the closet), is a lousy setup. :)

Smitty, I like that Mossberg gun clamp - I hadn't seen it before, thanks!

I think I'll set things up as outlined (possibly with the Mossberg clamp), and then plan to move to a safe sometime in the next year or so, since that seems to be how most folks are doing it.

Since for the short term, the gun will have a combination trigger lock on it, it seems like it should be fairly safe, even if it's not completely enclosed. The only thing it should be susceptible to is a determined kid (on a chair), opening the magazine, taking the shells out, and hitting them with a hammer... or a kid stuffing playdough down the barrel without me realizing it... or... :uhoh: okay, a safe is clearly going to need to be the long term solution.

Chuck - I just saw the v-line case you posted, that looks really nice! I may end up going with a larger floor safe if I can negotiate the use of closet space with my wife. ;)

[cdcmj]

I have the mossberg clamp, I love it and it works for all situations that dictate a locked, but accessible shottie

[arthurcw]

I saw at a gun show (and should have bought ) a keyless electronic doohickey that bolted to the wall and shut like a clam shell over the shotgun. It was big and study (and red?). When you entered the right combo its spring loaded upper shell snapped open and you could get to the gun. I have not seen it since and I’m really horked I did not get it.

There is also this
http://www.smartlock.com/products.htm Scroll down to the push button trigger lock at the bottom.

Thinking about anchoring a 2x6 on 2 studs, smoothing the heads on the bolts, then screwing that into the 2x6. Then putting a 2x4 up near the muzzle with something to hold the gun straight so it can’t be torqued. That is, if I can’t find the clam shell doohickey again.

[yhtomit]

machinecraig:

I'm glad you're putting so much thought into this; I get a bad feeling for the state of the world when I hear about kids injured or killed because they played with a gun.

I don't know how old your kids are, and I have as yet none myself, but I have a friend with two young daughters, and a .357 loaded for home defense. One of the girls is still an infant (so she doesn't quite count yet for this discussion) but I know the other is aware of the gun, respectful of it as an adult-only tool, and (I believe) extremely cognizant that it is never to be touched without one of her parents' guidance. If they''re at the age of reason, and your *having* either a gun or a closet is not a complete secret from them, you might want to have a lighthearted-but-serious talk with them about it, the reasons for it, etc.

I know that when I was a kid, I was often aggressively curious (read: "a snoop") -- I know now that the reason I never found my dad's gun collection is ... he didn't have one :) At the age of 4 or 5, I figured that anyone who'd been in the army had to have some guns around. Nope -- I think marching with one and shooting with poor ear protection innocculated him from that obsession ;)

timothy

[machinecraig]

My oldest is 5, and I'm starting the education process in earnest now. And like you - as big a snoop as I was as a kid, I'm sure she must have inherited it (even if it hasn't manifested yet). :)

I'm with you on child gun injuries - I don't want there to be any chance of that happening because of poor thinking on my part. This site (and corneredcat) have been great for sorting out how to handle the education process.

[Trifler]

This long-gun safe/locker that fits into the wall between the studs (2nd one down) is appealing to me for installation in a closet:

http://www.gunsafestore.com/rifle-case.htm

[foghornl]

There are only Mrs. Foggy & me, so I don't have the "Kids-n-Guns" thing to worry about.

Smitty beat me to it, but if I was in that situation, I would give the Mossberg "Lock Box" a good look.


copy-n-paste fromm Mossberg.com:

Loc-Box™ Firearm Security System (95092) $35

oh, nubbins, the pic didn't post

[camslam]

I have my Glock 21 with a tac laser/light sitting in a sportsafe in my nightstand next to the bed which I will use to get me to my shotgun sitting in a safe in the closet.

A lot depends on what the set up of your house and bedroom is.

A things to consider that I believe are equally important:
1. An unloaded gun is the most useless weapon in the world.
2. There should never be unlocked loaded guns around children without adult supervision.

There are trade offs all the time in the world. I would love to have my shotgun sitting there ready to go or under the bed if I need it, but I can't leave it in the open with kids around. So I choose to lock it up, loaded, ready to go, and use my handgun to get me there if needed.

[psyopspec]

What about mounting it above the door frame to take it further out of reach (and out of "obvious" sight of a burglar)?

[machinecraig]

Over the door is a great idea; I originally wanted to build a small shelf up there, but alas my wife can't reach it very well.

I really like what I see of the Mossberg lock box (http://www.mossberg.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=97), and will probably be ordering one - although that red clamshell thing sounded intriguing. :)

[1911austin]

Take the kids to the range and let them shoot off some 3 inch mag slugs. They will not want to touch the shotgun again. :D

[rjohnson4405]

1911austin: Actually not a bad idea, when i was younger my uncle basically did that to me, gun came up and knocked me in the forehead, I handed it back to him and went and sat in the car.

Although, on a kid below twelve I'd be worried about collar bone or shoulder dislocation injuries.

[david_the_greek]

just like making it near impossible for citizens to get guns doesn't neccesarily reduce gun violence, simply locking or hiding your guns will not keep your children away from guns/safer. I'm with everyone else on this board who has thus far said to educate your kids. obviously you're smart enough to know that yourself I just thought I'd try to reinforce it alittle, as some parents I'm sure feel very uncomfortable or inappropriate exposing young kids to guns. try to teach them best you can because as I proved many times in my youth, safes are very often an easy target for the young. daddy has to sleep or change or set down his keys sometime and that sometime is the perfect time to get a key off the key ring or just take a look see. plus you never know when your kid may be at another persons home, where the guns are not so well kept and you need to know that they are armed with the neccesary safety knowledge. can't wait till my nephew is old enough to shoot :D

[torpid]

just like making it near impossible for citizens to get guns doesn't neccesarily reduce gun violence, simply locking or hiding your guns will not keep your children away from guns/safer. I'm with everyone else on this board who has thus far said to educate your kids. obviously you're smart enough to know that yourself I just thought I'd try to reinforce it alittle, as some parents I'm sure feel very uncomfortable or inappropriate exposing young kids to guns. try to teach them best you can because as I proved many times in my youth, safes are very often an easy target for the young. daddy has to sleep or change or set down his keys sometime and that sometime is the perfect time to get a key off the key ring or just take a look see. plus you never know when your kid may be at another persons home, where the guns are not so well kept and you need to know that they are armed with the neccesary safety knowledge. can't wait till my nephew is old enough to shoot :D

Agreed.
Education is priceless.

Capital letters, however, are not.
Here are some to start you off, David:
ABCDEFG...

;)

[Thek9]

My 870 is in the closet with a cable lock (Key), it's threw the receiver. For effect I choose to rack a round. I now hold a CCW so my Sig is always close by me in my dwelling. Originally the 870 was a main line of home defense behind my primary defender my Red-bone Coonhound. The 870 is my Hurricane Gun. You come a loot'n I'll be a shoot'n.

T-Out

[Car Knocker]

Education is priceless.

Capital letters, however, are not.
Here are some to start you off, David:
ABCDEFG...

I've noted on various boards I frequent that the number of defective keyboards is on the rise....always seems to be the shift key that goes first, followed by the "y" and "o" keys.

Back to our scheduled programming.

[jakemccoy]

Most of the posts here seem too lax to me, probably because I live in Cali. Check with your state gun laws related to kids. In Cali, the laws are pretty strict when it comes to kids. For example, if a child gets a hold of your unsecured gun and takes it to a public place or to school, you can easily end up doing some time. The laws in Cali even tell us exactly what the penalties are. It's worse yet if the kid ends up hurting someone.

This whole idea of hiding the gun or putting it out of reach boggles my mind. Some of you guys don't seem to remember when you were kids. I know when I was a kid I could figure out a way to reach any inch of the house. My friends could do the same at their homes. I found all kinds of stuff that my dad "hid". I made sure to put it back exactly as he had it so that he never knew. Relatively speaking, I was a good kid if you're wondering. Kids are naturally curious. Labeling something as off limits only heightens their curiosity.

To protect my shotgun from kids and amateur thieves, I bought the smallest safe I could find and bolted it to the walls and floor of my bedroom closet. Here it is:

http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2140312&cp=702353&view=all&sr=1&origkw=stack-on&kw=stack-on&parentPage=search&searchId=21061662021

No kid, including other people's kids, is getting into that thing. I practice the home defense routine. I keep the safe locked with the shotgun's chamber empty, closed, saftey on, magazine loaded. I can have the gun pointed and ready to fire in less than 25 seconds. Yeah, if I slept with my shotgun, I could get it down to less than 5 seconds, but I'm willing to trade off for safety. The chances of a kid rummaging through my bedroom are much higher than an intruder kicking my door open unexpectedly.

When kids are around, no gun should be "hidden" with a trigger lock. Further, a loaded gun should NEVER have a trigger lock on it. Imagine taking the lock off when the safety is somehow released simultaneously. That's a dangerous situation, even more dangerous if a kid's fumbling with it. This article explains:

http://hematite.com/dragon/gctriglock.html

The notion of a kid having an accident with a gun is a "one strike and everybody's out" situation. "Having a talk" with your kid is no substitute for getting a safe or a secure case. Kids make mistakes. There's no room for mistakes on this matter.

[Chuck R.]

I agree 100% with jakemccoy, get a safe or a disabling lock. Education is great, but you cannot educate 100% of your child's friends and anybody else that may gain access to your gun. I also remember vaguely what I was like as a kid, and I also know that nothing is beyond the reach of my 4 year old.

Two incidents have shaped my way of thinking:

1. A friend of my cousin committed suicide with one of my uncle's rifles. Luckily this occurred in the early 70's before the litigation craze, but neither family ever got over it.

2. A KS court case a while back when the gun-owner was found responsible for a teenager's stealing his unsecure gun and accidentally shooting his girlfriend with it.

These days some companies make some pretty good security containers that both protect the weapon and provide quick access. Compared to the cost of a gun, they're relatively inexpensive, compared to the cost of a lawsuit, they're practically free.

IMHO, they're really is no excuse to leave an unsecure loaded gun in the house.

Chuck

[RobG5538]

I agree with, "get a safe." Every night after kids are asleep I go downstairs and retrieve my HD Mossy. And every morning before they wake up I put it back in the safe. At night it sits next to me loaded with an empty chamber. The door is closed and I always here the kids, IF they pop in, which they don't really do any longer. They also know its there at night and know the rules; DO NOT TOUCH!

[Zonamo]

I use a V-Line Shotgun Case in the closet. The simplex lock is relatively quick to open.

V-Line Shotgun Case (http://www.vlineind.com/html/long_gun_case.html)

Another option might be a mounted Life Jacket. Key access and meets CA gun lock requirements.

Shotgun Life Jacket (http://www.mogulco.com/lifejacket/modellj3.html)

[jakemccoy]

Zonamo, I like "Life Jacket 3" (http://www.mogulco.com/lifejacket/modellj3.html). It's better than a trigger lock, which offer the least protection. I also like that it's California approved (useful evidence in a Cali court) and that it disables the shotgun from being loaded, pumped, or fired.

Downfalls are that the device offers little theft deterrence; I don't like key locks; and I don't want the gun exposed at all while kids are in the house.

However, the Life Jacket 3 would be great for me to have by my bed at night, and then store the shotgun in the safe when I wake up. Because of the low price, I'm definitely getting one of these, thanks for the tip!

[machinecraig]

I've seen lots of good ideas mentioned in this thread - thanks to everybody who contributed! I definitely agree that locks are necessary with small kids - and a safe is absolutely the way we're going to go (we'll get a mossberg locking mount until we get the safe later this year).

The posts about education have been a good reminder on how important it is to keep moving on that front. We've been reviewing the Eddie Eagle rules this week -I want to make sure I'm setting her up for a lifetime of safe gun handling.

thanks again all!

-Craig

[sm]

Educate the kids; one cannot educate the kids too early.

Eddie Eagle assists with this.

Kids should be exposed early, take the gun down, and show then all the parts, and let them ask as many questions, as often as they want. Even if this drives one nuts.

Take the curious out/ minimized from the situation.
Instills the kid is being listened to, getting attention to questions, and his time, being made time, is important.
Never promise a kid you will show them later, and not. Trust is a two way street.

Kids have stuff and things they want kept secret, so the secret stuff about not telling other kids, strangers and all about guns is discussed.

Take a kid shooting, it is all about them, even if they are not big enough to shoot, the cookout, hot dogs, ice cream and kid games, with bigger folks with guns, and able to shoot, instills in them some gun values and makes them a part of the gun culture.

Securing the actual gun?
Lots of ideas shared already.
One may have to adhere to certain regulations as imposed by different jurisdictions.

Educate the kids.
They have the same rights as everyone else. Just they are not as tall, weigh as much and have a right to be a kid as well.

[sm]

These posts in regard to giving anyone, being given heavy recoiling loads, be it shotgun, handgun or rifle, I do not appreciate.

Kids.
These are our future.
I choose to not alienate a kid by handing them a gun and letting them get hurt, scared in the guise of "well , little jerk won't touch my shotgun by gawd!"

No the kid won't. In fact will be so turned off by the negative experience, when bigger will vote and take personal responsibility to be against guns.

Do not hand a kid, a lady a hard kicking gun with no instructions, to make fun of them, and don't pretend to be kicking a dog, not around me .

Recently a lady did get hurt, by a guy, being all Mall Ninja and total jerk.
She really did get hurt shooting a hard kicking load, I mean go to ER kind of hurt with more doctor visits.
One concern was detached retina.
I took him to task.

I joke , I tease, I have a good time.

Just do not ever let me catch someone having a laugh at the expense of hurting another .
That is a promise.

[Mike_in_OC]

Check out Tufloc

http://www.esmet.com/singlegun.html

http://www.esmet.com/images/singles.jpg

[psyopspec]

RE the use of a high-energy load as a teaching tool...

I recently graduated college. In the course of my schooling I took well over 2 dozen shooters to the range, many for the first time. Of those I created a couple devotees to the shooting sports who, with any luck, will be lifers. At one point, though, I nearly lost one, and here's how: A girl from Washington state, Rachel, had become a regular shooting buddy over the course of a few months. I started her out on my AR for the low recoil and "plinkability" (didn't have a .22 at the time). Soon after we moved to pistols, and she fell in love with 9mm handguns (liked SIGs in particular, which I'll never understand:uhoh: ). Most of our range trips after that were for handguns.

Eventually she'd become proficient in safe handling and was developing impressive accuracy with a pistol. One time while preparing for a range trip I noticed that I had a small tupperware container filled with old 12 gauge shells that had come from my pockets after various hunting trips. I grabbed the container and my 870 HD shotgun and brought it with. After giving her the basic rundown and observing her firing the gun a couple times, I left her to her own. She was having fun with birdshot at plinking distances while I was shooting in the next lane. Suddenly I heard a boom that exceeded the other shotgun blasts and looked over. She was standing there, stunned, with a look on her face like she was about to cry. The pump on the gun had been flung back from the recoil of the 2 3/4" magnum slug that I'd left in the container and she'd loaded and fired. Turned out there were 3 or 4 left in the container that I'd had leftover after topping the gun off for HD duty and had tossed into the container. I had forgotten they were there, and she didn't know enough about shotguns to realize what they were.

She took a good whack to the shoulder, and has been shy of shotguns ever since. Lucky for me and the rest of the firearms community that it didn't turn her off to guns completely. It dampened her enthusiasm some, and I still feel like crap thinking back on it. Moral of the story: That ain't a valid teaching tool.


RE storage of a dedicated HD gun: I keep mine concealed in a bedroom when I'm home, locked up when I'm out. No kids in my household, and it's in a spot where company ought not be stumbling on it.

[captainamerica]

I'm not sure I caught it but does the Mossberg sleeve block a shotgun or rifle from being fired while locked in place? The life jacket appears to do that.

[Smitty in CT]

The Mossberg box is a simple design, you put a long "L" bracket into a wall stud, that slides into the barrel. Then inside the locking bracket there is a piece that inserts into an open bolt of a shotgun (I don't think it would work for a rifle), so, you cant have a shell in the chamber. Then it just closes and locks around the shotgun, pretty easy.

[twinhairdryers]

The only thing an empty 12ga can do to children is bang your furniture around. A magazine fed shotgun leaves only the full mag to tend to for safety. There are many places to hide or lock a magazine rather than a 3-4foot long shotgun. If my 2 year old can lock and load an AK fed mag fed shotgun after finding a locked mag, i'd rather have her on the range with a bench rest, bottle, and sand bag.

[gyp_c2]

Take the kids to the range and let them shoot off some 3 inch mag slugs. They will not want to touch the shotgun again.

Being ignorant and growing up anyway, is no excuse for cruelty and inhumanity...This is exactly the type of behavior they expect of us...
Please disappoint them by educating at every opportunity and promoting a better view of us...If nothing else, it really is for the children ...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

[Patriot-Brewer]

I saw at a gun show (and should have bought ) a keyless electronic doohickey that bolted to the wall and shut like a clam shell over the shotgun. It was big and study (and red?). When you entered the right combo its spring loaded upper shell snapped open and you could get to the gun. I have not seen it since and I’m really horked I did not get it.

I have that for my shotgun and it works great...lagged it into the studs. I can't remember who makes it and I haven't seen one since I bought it.