[ready4shtf]

I want to start reloading my own .308 and 30-06 rounds but dont want them to break 1000 fps muzzle velocity. Can this be done by just using less powder? I already read the thread about low charges potentially causing kabooms. With that being said, is this possible and/or common among reloaders?

[Ben Shepherd]

The only way to go anywhere near that slow would be a cast bullet load with unique or 2400. HOWEVER:

I don't think you'll find any listed loads(best bet would be a lyman manual) that go anywhere near that. That slow with a 16+ inch rifle barrel runs a very high risk of sticking a slug in the bore.

[ready4shtf]

I was planning on going with a really fast burning powder and the heaviest bullets I could find.. It would be a 24" barrel Rem 700 bolt action.

[trueblue1776]

ultra low loads can lead to inconsistent burn, which will (can) detonate just like an overcharge. Only use loads within published limits.

[CMcDermott]

It can be done, but there are problems with inconsistent ignition and burning of the powder. You may not be able to go as low as you want and need to be very careful that you check your bore after each shot to make sure that the bullet exited. You won't find any data for loads at that low of a velocity, but traditionally Bullseye and Red Dot have been the powders of choice. You might want to consider Titegroup and Trail Boss also. Start with a known cast bullet load using the correct powder and bullet weight, then reduce until you reach your desired velocity.

Using these very fast powders in a rifle cartridge like the 30-06 is not the safest thing in the world, and a double charged case can easily result in a Kaboom. Another thing to consider is the very fast pressure rise of these very fast powders - it's like hitting your rifle with a sledge hammer as you will need to use much higher pressures than the pistol cartridges that usually use these types of powders. A remington 700 wouldn't be my choice of rifle actions to use this kind of a load as it tries to contain the gases after a case ruptures instead of trying to direct the gases in safe directions like a Mauser 98. It also lacks the third safety lug, depending instead on a bolt handle that is just soldered to the bolt body. The receiver walls aren't as thick, and the barrel thread is smaller. End result is a receiver that is more likely to fail catastrophically (blow-up) instead of just bending and bursting.

Also this is single-stage press only territory, and I recommend that you weigh each case before you put in powder, and then again after you put in the powder, and again after you seat the bullet just to try and eliminate the chances of getting a case doubled up with powder. Getting a bolt in your face after your rifle "spontaneously dis-assembles" will really ruin your day.

[Jim Watson]

A 165 gr Laser Cast bevel base .30 and 7.0 gr 700X shoots very well and very mildly in my .30-06. I don't know if it is as slow as 1000 fps, but it isn't much more.

An article in Handloader's Digest No 9 about light loads concentrates on the (no longer made) Alberts Scheutzenplinker, a 150 gr swaged and dry lubed lead .30 bullet.
It reports about 1000 fps from .30-06 with 5.5 gr Bullseye, 6.5 gr Unique, or 5.5 gr 700X. Half a grain less for similar velocity from .308. He says you can load lighter but not to go less than 700 fps. Best to have a chronograph to find the limits from YOUR rifle, this is ragged edge loading and you would not have the exact same bullet.

Edit to add: Yup, Trail Boss should be good for that. They don't show loads for .30-06 but you could work up from .30-30 data.

I don't know of any reliable data for subsonic loads with jacketed bullets from big cartridges. There would be a huge risk of sticking a bullet in the bore, and a jacketed bullet is a lot harder to get out than cast. There are some high priced specialty factory loads but they jealously guard their data. There was a guy selling the secret to low velocity loads on e-bay; I think $15 just for data and procedures. He got hoo-rawed a lot on the shooting boards but nobody offered any guidelines of their own.

[sargenv]

One powder I didn't see mentioned is Trail Boss. Trail boss is a really fluffy relatively fast burning powder than was made to fill larger cases to prevent double charges in handguns. As per it's name, it was designed with Cowboy action shooting in mind. However there is data available for cast bullet loads involving rifle calibers. I think working up loads with heavy lead bullets in rifle calibers with Trail boss would be safer than utilizing true pistol powders like bullseye, red dot, unique, etc. There is data out there that can be used for rifle loads, it's just a matter of finding it. The great thing is that this powder does not seem to be position sensitive like other fast burners. To give an example of how fluffy it is, I have a hard time getting more than 3.5 gr of it in a 38 special case, and a bit over 5 gr is difficult to get into a 44 magnum case. Utilizing a faster burning powder like bullseye, i can probably get 15 gr in a 357 and probably 25 gr of it in a 44 magnum effectively making it a triple charge.

[ready4shtf]

Ive been shooting the Engel subsonic 308 ammo out of the 700, so I know there is winning combination. I was looking to make it myself and save some $$. I dont have any reloading gear yet, but I suppose I could buy a rig and disassemble a cartridge to weigh the bullet and powder.

[QuickRick]

Yes it can be done. More precisely than "less powder" you will need (in most cases) to use less and DIFFERENT powder. The Lyman reloading handbooks are a great reference for your project, their cast bullet manual best of all. I've used their cast bullet data with the same (or nearly so) weights of jacketed bullets for many years with excellent results. I do think getting sub 1,000 fps loads from a rifle barrel may be a bit of a stretch because of the increased resistance of the jacketed bullets. You don't want to lodge a jacketed bullet in your barrel or worse yet experience the "Detonation" anomaly which can detroy a firearm or really ruin your day. Perhaps even your last day. For these reasons (warning, blashemy here) I depart from using the recommended starting loads for cast bullets when substituting jacketed bullets. For example if the suggested starting load is 10 grns of X powder and the suggested max load of X powder 14 grns I would start at say 11.5 to 12.0 grns. Again, this is when substituting jacketed bullets for cast with cast bullet loading data... Final thought if attempting this type of loading, be careful of powder bridging (catching) in your powder measure drop tube. This can occur if using a small diameter (ie 22 caliber) drop tube with bulky cut flake powder types like Unique, Red Dot, or 700-X. These are popular cast bullet powders. I avoid the possibility by using a 357 or 44 caliber drop tube and dropping the charges into primed 357 or 44 cases. I then dump the charges into smaller caliber cases (222 & 223 Remington) using a clear powder funnel. Takes a little time but still much faster than weighing each charge individually...Hope this helps and good luck with your project.

[Mat, not doormat]

That slow with a 16+ inch rifle barrel runs a very high risk of sticking a slug in the bore.


Why would that be such a risk? My cowboy rifle loads only run maybe 7-800 fps out of a 19" bbl. They don't stick. Of course, .38 spl cases are a deal smaller than a .30-06. I would think that the biggest concern would be to use a powder bulky enough to somewhat fill that large a case, otherwise, you'd be running into inconsistent burn, due to the variable position of the powder in the case.

~~~Mat

[Chawbaccer]

Here are some loads using pistol type powders.
Lever Gun Preformance Studies (http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm)

[Steve C]

Here are some article on downloading rifle rounds.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_19_46/ai_65017381
http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/ed.html

Here is a short article By C. E. Ed Harris on using 13.0 grs of Red Dot in rifle loads.

Ä Fidonet: Firearms Echo (1:270/615) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ FIREARMS Ä
Msg : #11392 [400]
From : Ed Harris 1:109/120.3006 12 Mar 94 08:29:14
To : All 14 Mar 94 07:37:12
Subj : Red Dot Rifle Loads Pt. I
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

(If you missed this when it appeared in Handloader's Digest, 10th Ed. here it
is again...

By C.E. Harris, Revised 2-16-94

My success in economizing by using up leftover shotshell powder has changed my
approach to handloading. I had a caddy of Red Dot, and no longer reloaded
shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?" My shooting is now
mostly high-power rifle. I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice
offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't
want to burn out my barrel or my wallet. Powder used to be cheap, but today is
$20/lb. (or more), so cost is a factor in component choice.

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual
reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and
concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.
Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it
work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast
Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight! Red Dot
is bulky, compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It
occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle
powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red
Dot adequately addresses my safety concerns because it makes an accidental
double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The Load" IS 13
grains of Hercules Red Dot, in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger.
"The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within
certain limitations, which are:

1. The case must be LARGER than the .300 Savage or .35 Remington.

2. The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898) design, suitable for smokeless
powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3. The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4. Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they
necessary).

Within these restrictions I have now engraved in stone, "The Load" works! The
bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gaschecked cast bullets required in the
.30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plainbased ones work fine in the
8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load" has shown complete success in the .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65
Argentine, .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70
(strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs.
is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield -- Ed.) Though I
have not tried it, I have no doubt that "The Load" would work well in other
cartridges fitting these parameters, such as the .35 Whelen, .358 Winchester,
.375 H&H or .444 Marlin, based on RCBS and Lyman published data.

"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an
accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately
obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should
whenever handloading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal
variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge
weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of
similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated
flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do
no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor
recommended in smaller ones. I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle
loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups
can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is
no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24" sporter
barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or
1600 with a 150-gr. cast load. "The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's
deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys
(10-13 BHN) at woods ranges. Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are
about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.

-- continued next message --

In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed

--- msged 2.05
* Origin: Home of Ed's Red (1:109/120.3006)


Ä Fidonet: Firearms Echo (1:270/615) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ FIREARMS Ä
Msg : #11393 [400]
From : Ed Harris 1:109/120.3006 12 Mar 94 08:35:34
To : All 14 Mar 94 07:37:14
Subj : Red Dot Rifle Loads, Pt. II
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

--- continued from previous message --

Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second, but "The Load"
starts to slow down in barrels over 28", such as the M91 Moisin-Nagant and long
Krags or 98a Mausers.

My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 3-5 lbs. of .22 backstop
scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft
"Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:25 tin/lead. in bores of 8 mm or larger. "The
Load" drives soft- cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get expansion,
but without fragmenting. These out-penetrate factory .30-30 softpoints, and
kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when
placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, "The
Load" gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast
bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr.
cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22" barrel .45-70, sporter
are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not
have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their
caliber.

The Load" works well with jacketed bullets, giving somewhat lower velocities
than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in
the bore. The 85-gr. or 100-gr. Hornady or 90-gr. Sierra JHP for the .32 H&R
Mag. revolver, or the Remington 100-gr. .32-20 softpoint bullet become mild,
but destructive varmint loads at 1600 f.p.s. from a .308 or '06.

If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine softpoint bullet,
designed for higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a
non-destructive "coup de gras", small game or wild turkey load which shoots
close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards! A more accurate and
effective small game or varmint load uses a flat-nosed 150-gr. pr 170-gr.
.30-30 bullet instead. These don't expand at the 1400-1450 f.p.s. obtained
with "The Load", but their larger frontal area improves killing power compared
to roundnoses or spitzers.

I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with "The Load" for
cheap 200-yd. NMC boltgun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I
use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6" ten-shot, iron-sight
groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4" for the M72
or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can
be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice ion the Garand as well.
These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite
their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the
deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boattail bullets may not shoot as
well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win.
barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06,
7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load
velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great
practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads
helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle
without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because "The Load" shoots into the
ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at
using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection
blows you into the "8" ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would
expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your
Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50
grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 costs 10 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140
rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to find new powder for $14/lb.).
Substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot gets 538 rounds per pound at a cost of 2.6
cents which is a savings of over $7 per hundred rounds in powder alone! Greater
savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.

Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by
varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed
and flipped through rapid-fire in the boltgun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is
very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge
weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders.

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of
powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This
approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost
everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for
routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I
seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target
barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work
more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get alot more shooting for the dollar. Economical
powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and
more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting
with 13 grains of Red Dot!

In Home Mix We Trust, Regards, Ed

--- Squish v1.01
* Origin: None (1:109/120.3006)

[bglz42]

Great post! I've been using Red Dot in rifles for years, as plinking and target loads. (Mostly 30-30's). Fun and cheap! And brass last forever...

[RidgwayCO]

Hodgdon uses H4895 in reduced power "youth loads" that might work for you.

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/youth/index.php

[TEDDY]

like the man said RED DOT 13gr gives 1680 fps in 1903 springfield.I use same load in the other military rifles.at 100yds in 03 it will touch each other.