[Brass Fetcher]

Special thanks to J.K. for funding this test in full.

Cartridge : Various .223 Remington cartridges

Firearm : American Derringer Model 1 (.223 Remington) with 0.80" effective barrel length

Block calibration : 9.3cm @ 595 ft/sec (No corrections performed due to tumbling of bullets)

Shot 1 - Handloaded 62gr Barnes Triple Shock. Impacted at 884 ft/sec, tumbled at ~ 0.4" depth and penetrated to 11.4". No expansion occured.

Shot 2 - Cor-Bon 53gr DPX. Impacted at 1241 ft/sec, tumbled at ~ 0.3" depth and penetrated to 12.5". No expansion occured.

Shot 3 - Federal Premium 60gr Nosler Partition. Impacted at 1153 ft/sec, tumbled at ~ 0.3" depth and penetrated to 12.1". No expansion occured. Track outlined in green.

Shot 4 - Federal Premium 40gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. Impacted at 1323 ft/sec, tumbled at ~ 0.4" depth and penetrated to 11.1". The orange polycarbonate tip broke off upon bullet tumbling and the nose of the bullet experienced some compression in the radial direction.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=58668&stc=1&d=1180660512
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=58669&stc=1&d=1180660512

[otomik]

I don't get it, why spend time and money investigating something that is clearly not a good defensive choice. some niche TEOTWAWKI application for a .223 derringer I'm not seeing? start a campfire with the muzzle flash?

[Seancass]

looks like it'd defend someone. it punched a hole. maybe not the best choice, but deff. NOT a waste of time and money to see if it is or is not a good choice.

i wanna see a pic of the gun.

[fletcher]

Once again, interesting results. What was the recoil like from that thing?

[M2 Carbine]

Interesting.
I don't believe it's something I want, the 9 inch barrel on my Kel Tec PLR .223 is short enough.

I would like to see it firing though.

[benEzra]

Those are pitiful ballistics, IMHO.

53 grains at 1241 fps is, by my calculations, 181 ft-lb of kinetic energy. That's less than a short-barreled .380 or .38. A .38 derringer would probably be considerably more effective.

Since the same load from a rifle-length barrel would give you in the neighborhood of 1200-1300 ft-lb, you are wasting nearly all of your powder creating the muzzle flash. Only a tiny fraction of the powder's energy is going into accelerating the bullet.

Sounds like a neat toy, or maybe a non-NFA alternative to a flash-bang. :D. But it doesn't sound particularly viable as a defense gun.

[Brass Fetcher]

The recoil was not bad, surprisingly. It felt a lot like a full size .357 Magnum revolver.

[sansone]

I love these tests, keep up the good work;)

[grendelbane]

I have always wondered what kind of velocities that .223 derringer produced. Now I know.

Yes, the people posting that it is a stupid choice are right. I think most of us knew that instinctively. Still, I appreciate the chance to see the actual results. In some ways, I am impressed. In other ways, not.

I would like to see what the .45/70 derringer does. Now that would be interesting, even if I never intend to shoot one.

A 5.7x28mm derringer would be interesting. Probably come close to the .223 in actual performance.

[Brass Fetcher]

@grendelbane, The .45-70 Government derringer is on the list of guns to test (it came in the same shipment as the .223REM derringer used in this test). The problem is this : I am scared to shoot the gun. So is everyone I have asked to shoot it. If there are any volunteers in the Eastern PA region, please PM me... I'm sure that lots of people would be interested in this test.

[grimjaw]

I don't get it, why spend time and money investigating something that is clearly not a good defensive choice.

Knowledge is power? If the results had been different would you still be asking this question?

jm

[sean m]

:confused:A hideout for our guys in the sandbox?:confused:

[Plink]

And that, guys, is why handgun cartridges have heavier bullets and less powder than rifle cartridges. I found the test fascinating, myself. I knew I'd never consider that combination for self defense, but was curious about the results just the same. I'm far more curious about the .45/70 derringer. I've always enjoyed hand cannons and have a little experience with .45/70 in a pistol, though nothing that small. I don't blame you for being scared to shoot it.

[benEzra]

@grendelbane, The .45-70 Government derringer is on the list of guns to test (it came in the same shipment as the .223REM derringer used in this test). The problem is this : I am scared to shoot the gun. So is everyone I have asked to shoot it. If there are any volunteers in the Eastern PA region, please PM me... I'm sure that lots of people would be interested in this test.
Know of anybody with a Ransom Rest?

[Brass Fetcher]

Hmmm.... that's a good idea. But don't the Ransom rests use custom-shaped grips, for each model of gun?

I asked the owner if he had ever shot it. At the time, he had not, but promised me he would take it out and shoot it as soon as he could. I wanted to know what it was like - he said that he had a bruised hand (bone bruise presumably) for two days after that. Mind you, I am to shoot this gun a total of six times from the bench! (Two different loads, three different test events each)...!

[choad33]

@grendelbane, The .45-70 Government derringer is on the list of guns to test (it came in the same shipment as the .223REM derringer used in this test). The problem is this : I am scared to shoot the gun. So is everyone I have asked to shoot it. If there are any volunteers in the Eastern PA region, please PM me... I'm sure that lots of people would be interested in this test.


I live in East Central Pennsy, I love shooting stuff

[MICHAEL T]

Hire a illegal after all they only do jobs . Americans won't do.:rolleyes::D

[Gordon]

Face him north so it will blow him back across the border.

[Brass Fetcher]

@choad33 - If you would like to shoot the .45-70 Derringer, I can meet you at the range of your choice (in a few weeks when I'm ready to test the gun) in PA. If you would like to bring a gun/cartridge that you would like to see tested in gelatin, we can get that done, as well.

@Michael T/Gordon - As far as the illegal alien stuff... let's please keep this thread on the High Road. Gelatin testing is non-denominational and shares no affiliation with nations or politics (well politics is another story perhaps) ... :)

[Plink]

I've heard of folks buying those .45/70 derringers for close range bear defense. My only question is how are they gonna get the bear to shoot it? :D

[No Quarter]

I love the derringer tests. I thought the .38 derringer results were quite good. I own several in different calibers including a .44 mag Bond Arms.

It might be worth buying a set of over-sized grips that ADC makes in order to make the big calibers easier to shoot.

Thanks for the work!

NQ

[Brass Fetcher]

@NQ - Thank you for the advice on the oversized grips. But what about the rest of my arm?! :) The gent, J.K., who you might have seen has sponsored all of the gelatin tests that I have recently posted, appears to be a big Derringer fan. .44 Magnum and Special out of a Derringer will be coming up shortly. Along with a 'mystery caliber', if you will. :)

Thank you to choad33 and another THR member who PM'd me about shooting the .45-70... I should be ready for the test in the coming 1.5-2 weeks... please let me know what range is convenient to you (and who you think will not object to the gelatin testing) and we can go from there.

Thank you,

JE

[No Quarter]

Looking forward to that .44 mag test. I have one myself that I am awful fond of.

Keep up the good work!

[copaup]

Please tell me there is a photo of the muzzle flash. That is something I feel that I must see. The concept of a 223 derringer is so insane and useless that I may just have to find one...

[skeeter1]

And here I thought my .22Mag derringer had a heck of a muzzle blast. These stats are the .22Mag out of a 1"-barreled NAA mini-revolver:

.22 Mag, 45 grain bullet from NAA
(Calculated using Ingalls' table)
Bullet Weight ......... 45 grains Bullet Caliber ........ 0.220
Sectional Density ..... 0.133 Coefficient of Form ... 0.795
Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.167 Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.167
Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h. Altitude .............. 0 Ft.
Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in. Temperature ........... 60.0 F

Range Velocity Energy Momentum Mx. Ord. Defl. Drop Lead Time
yards f.p.s. ft-lb. lb.-sec. in. in. in. in/mph sec.
0 1000 99.9 0.1998 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.000
10 989 97.7 0.1976 0.0 0.0 0.2 0.5 0.030
20 978 95.6 0.1955 0.2 0.1 0.7 1.1 0.061
30 968 93.6 0.1934 0.4 0.3 1.6 1.6 0.092
40 958 91.7 0.1914 0.7 0.5 2.9 2.2 0.123
50 948 89.9 0.1895 1.1 0.7 4.5 2.7 0.154

I'm guessing that with the longer 3.5" barrels and no cylinder gap on my High Standard derringer, the .22 Mag would do every bit as well as the .223. Still wouldn't be my choice for HD/SD unless I was really desparate. I'd rather have a handgun cartridge (preferrably .38Spl+P) in a snubby than a rifle cartridge in a derringer.

[XDKingslayer]

grendelbane, The .45-70 Government derringer is on the list of guns to test (it came in the same shipment as the .223REM derringer used in this test). The problem is this : I am scared to shoot the gun. So is everyone I have asked to shoot it. If there are any volunteers in the Eastern PA region, please PM me... I'm sure that lots of people would be interested in this test.

I'll be in the area over the 4th of July. If you haven't found someone with the nuts to shoot it let me know.

[glummer]

I am scared to shoot the gun. So is everyone I have asked to shoot it.
Find a handloader, and work up graduated loads.

[Brass Fetcher]

@copaup - Nope, I didn't take any photos of the muzzle flash - believe me though, it was there! It was visible (knowing that I was focusing on the front sight) against the background (wooden bench, grass, gelatin block) that was in full sunshine.

@XDKingslayer - Thank you for the offer. There are two other people looking to participate in the testing right now... I will let everyone know once I have heard back from them (or not).

Hmmm. The idea of 'walking up' the load is a great idea. But this test is being paid for by someone else, and they have two factory loads that they would like to see tested in gelatin. So, I'm on a budget for time in order to do this test... but a load development may be the only solution in the future. Thank you for the advice.

Basically ... there are two things that can usually be said for my website - it's run on a shoestring budget (the necessity of buying gelatin powder and new refrigerators for when the heat load breaks them) and the time that I can spend on it is usually short in supply.

[Shadan7]

Basically ... there are two things that can usually be said for my website - it's run on a shoestring budget (the necessity of buying gelatin powder and new refrigerators for when the heat load breaks them) and the time that I can spend on it is usually short in supply.

Yeah, JE223, but you're doing all of us a great service, and we appreciate it.

Anyone who can, chip in and donate - it's to your own benefit. "Sponsoring" a test is great, but kicking in a few bucks also really helps the man keep going with this great research. :cool:

Oh, and I heard from the owner of the .45-70 derringer after he shot it: took a week for his hand to stop hurting. :what:

7

[Brass Fetcher]

Mooseman has kindly volunteered to shoot the .45-70 Derringer. We are currently working out where the test will take place, but it is tentatively planned for two weekends from now.

The first shot should be the 300gr Cor-Bon DPX bullet against bare gelatin. Depending on how that goes, expect to see a bare shot against Federal 300gr Powershok. Other barriers will be included in the test, depending on the amount of damage done to the block/number of blocks available to test that day.

[eldon519]

I don't really know what Mr. J.K.'s interests in this are, but if he is seeking out performance from these various rifle calibers, he may actually do better to select rifle squib loads using typical handgun powders. In a rifle, slow-burning powders will get you better velocities because they will maintain higher pressures further down the barrel, but in these short derringer barrels, I wouldn't be surprised if they never even come close to reaching peak pressure. Faster pistol powders may be able to generate more pressure and more velocity in this situation.

To save money you could do the load experimentation with just a chrono and save the gelatin for the best performers.

Just a thought.

[Brass Fetcher]

Those are some interesting ideas, but I am currently not setup for load development. I think that the customer (J.K.)has a leaning towards Derringers. Can't say I blame him either - the ones of his that I shot were very precise and of course reliable. The recoil of the bigger cartridges approaches my limit though - not a big fan of anything bigger than .223REM in a Derringer right now.

[eldon519]

Ah, I see. I just saw that one of the loads tested in .223 was a handload. I like your work though, it's interesting stuff.

[strambo]

Those results aren't great, but why are they pitifull? A tumbling full-length .223 projectile tearing a 12" wound channel is nothing to sniff at. Ft lbs of energy in itself is a meaningless stat. in terms of handgun wound ballistics. Only the depth and size of the wound channel factor in to the mechanisim of wounding for handguns.

Rifles have the velocity to damage tissue with the temporary wound channel so they have injury potential beyond the permanent cavity.