[boredelmo]

http://www.click2houston.com/news/13422568/detail.html
HOUSTON -- Hundreds of Houston police officers may be carrying weapons that could accidentally fire at any moment, KPRC Local 2 reported Thursday.

The Houston Police Department's Firearms Academy discovered the problem with the Smith and Wesson model 4003 and sent a warning memo to officers.

The gun potentially has a hidden problem that could cause it to discharge when someone engages the safety device after it has been cocked, the station reported.


The weapon may have developed a crack that is only visible if the gun is taken apart.

HPD sent out the following memo to hundreds of officers.

"Due to the serious nature of a potential accidental discharge by decocking the pistol in an unconventional manner, you are being notified."

"Officers have been asked to bring that weapon in for inspection. Specifically, some of the weapons have developed cracks in the frame and they wanted to make sure that's not the case with the majority of the weapons out there," said Sgt. Nate McDouell, an HPD spokesman. "Officers are allowed to carry a variety of weapons and this only represents a small portion of the weapons carried."

Police officials said that only eight or nine officers' guns have been found with the potential crack thus far. HPD headquarters told KPRC Local 2 that less than 150 officers carry that model and most have been checked.

"If there is a problem detected, Smith and Wesson has agreed to repair those weapons at no charge and officers are having those taken care of," McDouell said.

The model 4003 is a 40-caliber semi-automatic handgun, which is popular with newer officers and some specialized units on the force.

[Deanimator]

A friend of mine from college and the Army back in the '70s owned an S&W Model 39. He said he was on an outdoor covered range one day when he tripped the hammer drop safety. It went full auto, emptying the magazine and hitting the roof over the firing line.

I'd heard that rather than firing by themselves, some of the original FBI 1076s(?) locked up with a chambered round and could neither be fired nor cleared.

I've never been a big fan of S&W centerfire autos...

[springmom]

Does this mean we're going to have to stop making fun of anti's who are constantly saying that guns go off by themselves? :scrutiny:

Springmom

[joab]

The gun potentially has a hidden problem that could cause it to discharge when someone engages the safety device after it has been cocked, the station reported.And people call me paranoid because I flinch every time I use a decocker

The sad part, to me, is that I just bought a 4003 a month or so ago
I think it was police surplus

[Cliff47]

Maybe it's just a tad early this morning, but when I saw the subject line my first thought was 'a gun is an inanimate object, how could it get up and leave on its own'. After the first cup of coffee started kicking in, I realized the subject was about unintended discharges. It's early, kick me around noon.

[springmom]

ROTFLMFHO!!! First we have accidental and negligent discharges, now we have accidental and negligent go-off-and-run-away-from-homes? Quick! Pass a new gun control law that doesn't let them go off by themselves. It's for the children! :evil:

Springmom

[El Tejon]

Not unknown. I have witnessed it with SIGs, Rugers and Smiths and have heard about others doing this. More unintended consequences when a maker attempts to replace brain power with mechanical devices.

Funny when I engage the "safety device" on my 1911s, I never worry about this.:D

[Cybrludite]

Some CZ-52s have the same problem. If the internal parts are worn, then the decocker is just an oddly placed trigger. I've heard that a Circle-T inspection stamp on the bit of the chamber you can see through the ejection port means it was czeched out at the arsenal before being exported and proved safe. I'd still suggest testing it for yourself at the range.

[plexreticle]

S&W with a problem! I don't believe it. [/sarcasm]

[mbt2001]

The safer that you try to make a gun, the more dangerous the thing becomes. When you are introducing more working parts on something, usually complexity increases and time to failure decreases.

That being said, I have two S&W 6906 with the decockers and have been getting a little lax in using them. I won't let that happen again.

I think I am just going to switch all of my semi auto guns to Glocks, 1911's and Cz75's / SP01. All of those designes have been around for decades and are sound in vertially everyway.

[MD_Willington]

My 5906 has never done anything like that and it is a beater...

Send it back to S&W if it has this problem, they will most likely fix it for FREE...

[ball3006]

I always have my finger over the hammer when I trip the decocker. I don't trust a cocked and locked 1911 either.....chris3

[Patriot-Brewer]

This is why all handguns should be banned...except for the 1911 of course.:D



Had to keep the "thread inevitablility" thread true!:neener:

[Archie]

People, including range officers laugh at me when I put my thumb under the hammer when activating a decocker.

Seriously, this information has been floating about since the days of the S&W M39 - and probably was passed about in the days of the Walther PP, PPK and P38.

[Lonestar49]

...

It didn't take me long to decide that with any need to decock any of my guns that the decocker was the safest route to go. As all Instruction booklets for any of my guns say, and warn, "use the decocker only, but point gun in a safe direction when the decocker is used, as it could fail." "Do not decock manually."

Well, in my dry-firing of each new gun in the beginning, I thought, I can decock the hammer manually, no problem, I have control of the hammer until, twice, it slammed down, otherwise, the hammer "somehow" got away from my thumb holding it.

And as it goes, 2 times is a charm, 3 times and you're out..

So, I got into the habit, and love it, of using the decocker-only, pointing the gun in a safe direction and, at the range, or at the house, they have never failed.

I might also add, that in my choice of pistols, the decocker movement was part of the buying equation. In the Beretta Px4's case, the firing pin is a 2-part function, in that, when you use the decocker, the first part of the firing pin actually rotates UP as the hammer strikers, slams down, and it doesn't touch the firing pin. You can see it happen very easily, and how it works.

But I will say, it took me some time to get used to the "slam" of the hammer, yet, no BOOOM!

And, in all my Sigs, I really like the fact that the hammer doesn't rest flush with the firing pin, ever, only when you fire the gun. And it never hits the firing pin, as well, when you use the decocker as, they have a sweet 2-part action when you decock them. No slamming of the hammer, very slow action (yet fast) and their location is ideal for maintaining one's 2-hand grip to use them.

Can't say that about the Beretta's decocker location, but given the designs of both, it's the best of both worlds in my book.

In my book, USE THEM ONLY, as they are good, but use CAUTION when you activate the decocker, as the Good book of Safety says, and it should all work, even if it fails, as the book warns, they can.


Speaking for my Colt Defender, well, I firmly believe in the safety locked up in the slide but, if I need to decock the hammer, it is a safe, thumb and index finger "squeeze" on the hammer, as the right firing hand, pulls the trigger, and you let the hammer down, controlled-slow, with the gun pointing at a safe area. Never has failed, nor even come close, to losing the 2 finger tight squeeze on the hammer.


But, that's just me IMHO.



LS

[MrPeter]

And people say I'm nuts for having my XD or CZ75 carried "cocked and locked". I say that YOURE nuts for letting a hammer fall with one in the chamber, decocker or not!
:)

[El Tejon]

MrPeter, yeah, but it's the latest thing.:D

[Master Blaster]

I dunnoh, sounds to me like a story made up to cover the Hole in the locker in the police locker room. In addition to the decoker don't 3rd generation smith semi autos have a firing pin block that is only released by pulling the trigger?? If the decocker failed wouldnt the firing pin block stop a discharge? Unless of course, one had accidentally pulled the trigger.

[MD_Willington]

Well here's an image of a typical Gen 3...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/MDWillington1976/Firearms/5906Decoupe.jpg

[Bart Noir]

If I don't see more details, I'll call it a Police Station Urban Myth :D

Really, this design has a decocker raising a sturdy block of steel in front of the hammer, before it trips the sear to cause the hammer to fall on the block. The decocker is in the slide, and it beats me how a "crack in the frame" can cause it to fail to raise this block. And with this block raised the hammer cannot even get near the back of the firing pin.

So do you think they are saying that the frame is failing and letting the sear release the hammer? But what about the firing pin safety? Even if the hammer does smack the firing pin, this safety is preventing the firing pin from moving.

Oh, the same "crack in the slide" is also somehow causing the firing pin safety to disengage when the trigger is not pulled?

So do you think some officer actually pulled the trigger and the firearm worked just as designed? The "defective lever" excuse sure would appear fast, wouldn't it?

Bart Noir

[686+]

Yer, typical SAW will require the trigger to be pulled so the FP plunger is out of the way. The plunger is held by a nice hefty spring. The decocker shields the FP and moves the drawbar down and disengages the scear. It is possible for the decocker to be mis-timed and drop the hammer while the shield part of it is not there yet, but that should have been caught at the factory.

For this to happen there needs to be some serious flaws with the gun, or it has to be totally worn. With the amount most PD train with I doubt that the gun is worn out. How do I know? I got a 3 or so year old TSW series from an LAPD guy and it had less then 500 rounds through it, and the alloy slides were not even "broken in" yet. Also, the alloy frames are good for 10K rounds at least - no way a duty gun saw that.

Now it is possible to get the hammer to hit the FP by monkeying with the decocker/safety. Why? Because since most normal 4th generation guns are equiped with the magazine disconnect the question always comes up: "can you still fire the last round without the mag in place" Answer is yes, but it is tricky and involves quite a bit of manipulation.

My take on this is that this is
A) a fluke, that involved the gun seeing judicious use as a "persuasion" tool, as I don't think the alloy takes kindly to impact forces.
B) someone tried to put their finger in front of the hammer, and gingerly fumbled the safety, while having their booger hook on the trigger.
C) shoddy maintnance that involved putting gun oil where it does not belong and freezing the FP plunger up. And then monkeying with the decocker. "Put the thing on to safe like you mean it, don't make love to it!"


Best to post this at smith-wessonforum.com and ask for Fastbolt's oppinion.

[Walter]

And people call me paranoid because I flinch every time I use a decocker

I know what you mean. I always thumb the hammer down softly with
my right hand as I push the de-cocker lever with my left. It just doesn't
seem natural to let the hammer "slam" down when there is a round
chambered.
But like other people have said, carrying a 1911 solves that problem.
"Cocked and Locked" is the order of the day for my CCW.

Walter

[joab]

I got a question

I like the 4003(actually 06) as a truck gun, for some reason I feel an extra level of safety having it a DA auto with twice the capacity of a DA revolver

Is there any danger or benefit to chambering the round while on safe?

[Deaf Smith]

I had a Smith M39 fracture the decocker many years ago. Yes if heat treatment is off, they can fracture and fire the weapon. And Yep, putting ones thumb between the hammer and decocker face is the solution.

Which is why I don't like decockers no matter who makes them. Not even real happy my Maks use that system (but I feel the commies have THICK decocker faces for the hammer to hit.)

[686+]

you will get the hammer to follow the slide with the safety on, should not be a big deal. The FP will be blocked by the FP plunger, the safety will cover the FP end from where the hammer would stike it.
But I will default to the owners manual, what does it say?

Deaf Smith,
not failiar with the 1st gen of S&W autos. Does the M39 have a FP block in addition to the safety decocker? But, kind of hard to compare a 3rd gen to a 1st gen. A lot of growth and change during those years.

[686+]

Here is a picture of the safety in question. The black MIM safety on the right is shown with the left lever that would rotate counter clockwise as you look at it. Notice the shiny spot is where the hammer rides the safety.

The one on the left is a safety replacement block, if you have a DAO gun.

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/z-car 870.th.JPG (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=z-car 870.JPG)

[sansone]

+1 for slowly thumbing down the hammer. first time I operated a decocker I wet myself when the hammer fell:what:

[Tomcat47]

Back home in my little town we had a particular officer who blowed the left mirror off his patrol car with a wheel gun...then again with a S&W auto when the dept went auto 9mm.....then once again with a .40 blowing the rear view mirror off and shooting through a gas station canopy.

I am with BartNoir till I see more details...until then I will speculate Urban Myth. SW website has no info regarding this. PLUS!

The Model 4003 was built from 1991-1993, and the Model 4004, a blued version of the 4003.

This from www.pmulcahy.com very informative site by the way.....

With the above thought...maybe it is time to replace those 4003's? hmmm 15 years in service???

and oh! back to the top of this post....can we say...oops!...oops!....oops!
I...thought it was unloaded...I...I....thought the safety was on....I ...I.... I...
Ok...im an idiot...

Also when choosing to decock a firearm with this ability your finger should never be on the trigger. And there has been actual instances where a person went to decock the firearm and had there finger on the trigger, and atually pulled the trigger before the decocker had been engaged..these people are no good at multi-tasking with a loaded firearm.

As for the 39 mentioned above.. I would not believe it if I had been there. recoil and a limp wrist can presume to be a full auto situation, when it is actually just a suprise from improper firearm handling. I have had to many of these guns, along with Taurus, Baretta , Colt and the list goes on....

I have never had, seen, or heard of a decocker failure (until now)AN......and also I never decock with a round in the chamber. Its intended use is EMPTY mag...close slide ...decock firearm.
If you have a live round in chamber...O What's this...Oh! its..its a safety!

And of course the News reported it first!

[joab]

But I will default to the owners manual, what does it say?Beats me. That would be like reading instructions
And I bought the gun used

[Sage of Seattle]

Hundreds of Houston police officers may be carrying weapons that could accidentally fire at any moment

What does 'hysterical' mean?

[230RN]

joab said:

And people call me paranoid because I flinch every time I use a decocker.

Ditto, joab.

Back in the mid-sixties a friend showed me his new Walther PPK and when he flicked the safety and the hammer dropped, I damned near jumped out of my skin.

I have the same reaction today.

I'll use 'em, but I won't trust 'em.

Don't like magazine disconnect safeties either.

Or loaded cartridge indicators.

And mbt2001 observed:

The safer that you try to make a gun, the more dangerous the thing becomes. When you are introducing more working parts on something, usually complexity increases and time to failure decreases.

Double ditto.

MD_Willington put up a cutaway of a Gen 3. Jeeze, lookit all them there parts! And every part has at least one wear point.

I don't believe this is a mere urban legend --El Tejon and Cybrludite seem to confirm this.

Things fail.

Keep a bucket of sand handy if they do. I kept one in my shop just to establish the oft-recommended "safe direction."

Gimme a good ole reliable Matchlock any day.

Only one moving part. :)

[Bart Noir]

230RN, they gave virtually no information to this post, just a sort-of "something happened" statement.

I say again that a complete failure of the decocker can "maybe" let the hammer hit the firing pin. And that is all that will happen, because the FP safety prevents the FP from moving. Unless you have a complete failure of the FP safety at the same time as a complete failure of the decocker.

And that just ain't gonna happen.

So I still say somebody pulled a trigger, heard a loud noise, and started making excuses so that it wasn't his fault.

Bart Noir

[LaVere]

I took me a few times to feel comfortable using my decocker on my Sig. But just to be sure I not only point in a safe direction ( in the home) but also in an area that my wife might not see if I have to patch it. :D:D

[USMC6177]

I have a bucket of sand in my gun room for loading, unloading and decocking. Better safe then spackling

[230RN]

Bart Noir:

230RN, they gave virtually no information to this post, just a sort-of "something happened" statement.
snip
So I still say somebody pulled a trigger, heard a loud noise, and started making excuses so that it wasn't his fault.

I agree. But the tale was a good jumping off point for a discussion of decockers.

I'm glad others (e.g., USMC6177) use the sand bucket in their gun rooms to establish a safe direction.

[Kimber1911_06238]

not a good situation.

[mpmarty]

Why on earth would anyone want a third thumb (decocker)? If the weapon is loaded it is cocked, end of discussion. If it isn't loaded why not just thumb the hammer down gently or in the case of striker fired weapons, pull the trigger? this really confuses me and I think it's like tire rotation on my truck, I do it every day, insert key, start engine, put in gear, release park brake, press on gas pedal, rotate tires.:neener:

[KINGMAX]

Decock or not, always let the hammer down, don't drop it just because you have a decock feature on it.