What gun/caliber was used to kill President Kennedy?


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SteelyNirvana
June 1, 2007, 06:31 PM
President Kennedy's death was way before my time(I'm 25) and I've never known which gun/caliber was used to assassinate him. I hope this doesn't get a big "conspiracy theory" thread started:p

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Jorg Nysgerrig
June 1, 2007, 06:34 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_rifle

I'm sure someone will drop by shortly and let you know what the second gunman on the grassy knoll had.

Straight from the Warren Commission report: http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-3.html#description

Vern Humphrey
June 1, 2007, 06:36 PM
It was an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano in 6.5 X 52 Carcano.

Cpl Nobbs
June 1, 2007, 06:37 PM
it was a pulse rifle in the 40 watt range of course.

ArmedBear
June 1, 2007, 06:46 PM
Carcano rifle loaded with magic bullets.

Grump
June 1, 2007, 06:51 PM
Anyone truly interested in getting past all the hyperbole, supposition, blathering and exaggerations regarding this topic would be very well served to look up what Massad Ayoob had to write about his own actual test of making that shot, with a comparable rifle and optics, with a panel of shooters of various skill levels.

Case Closed. There is yet another book out on it which reaches a similar conclusion. I happen to disagree with Ayoob's theory on something like a .220 Swift being used for a frontal headshot. Surely possible but the same thing *can* happen with a lower-velocity rear headshot.

MrPeter
June 1, 2007, 07:00 PM
I can't say what show it was since I don't remember, but there was an in-depth investigation on how that shot was made, and the conclusion was that it could have been made with one shot that wasn't magic, just extremely lucky.

2cents.

JimmyN
June 1, 2007, 07:03 PM
The grassy knoll gunman was also using a Mannlicher-Carcano, as he needed to use the same 6.5 x 52 magic bullets.

That one was equipped with some tactical improvements though, to enhance effectiveness:
Non-glare wood fence camo finish
Bayonet lug
High capacity magazine
Flash suppressor
Barrel shroud
Pistol grip forearm and stock
Shoulder thing that goes up

psegnatelli
June 1, 2007, 07:14 PM
The only thing I have to add is the photos of the rifle. I see two different rifles. One has sling attached to the heel of the buttstock, then in another photo the sling is attached to the side.

SaMx
June 1, 2007, 07:18 PM
"the shoulder thing that goes up" makes the gun extra deadly.

longeyes
June 1, 2007, 08:30 PM
Distance was 88 yards, is that right? With scope?

Gator
June 1, 2007, 08:42 PM
58 yards for the first shot, 88 yards for the third according to Wikipedia.

The Carcano has had a bad rap as a cheap, inaccurate rifle ever since Oswald made it famous, but they really aren't that bad.

slzy
June 1, 2007, 08:45 PM
with the kgb,cia,cuban govt,cuban refugees,retired ss,mafia,jesuits,dallas police,fbi,all firing at the same time,they could'nt miss.

Eightball
June 1, 2007, 09:32 PM
It was the CIA, in league with the Aliens.

On a slightly serious note, is that a carbine, or the carcano rifle? It looks to be a carbine with a scope mounted, though everyone refers to it as the Carcano "rifle".......weird.

SteelyNirvana
June 1, 2007, 10:18 PM
I can't say what show it was since I don't remember, but there was an in-depth investigation on how that shot was made, and the conclusion was that it could have been made with one shot that wasn't magic, just extremely lucky.


I know I am doing what I said I didn't want to do but.....

When the History channel was airing an all weekend thing on the 40th anniversary of his death they showed Kennedy getting shot frame by frame. It honestly looked like the back of his head exploded,which means that the shot had to come from the front (grassy knoll). Right?, or was I just imagining things?. I know from many years of shooting at various objects that the entrance hole is small round and clean while the exit hole is bigger and opened up.

SteelyNirvana
June 1, 2007, 10:31 PM
What about Robert Kennedy?. The Wiki article on him says it was a .22 revolver. The article on Sirhan Sirhan says it was an Iver Johnson automatic. So which was it?

lamazza
June 1, 2007, 10:36 PM
The Wiki article on him says it was a .22 revolver
6 shot revolver and he attacked form the front...Odd how kennedy's back was hit and several bystanders as well...

SaMx
June 1, 2007, 10:41 PM
The national geographic special I saw on Robert Kennedy said it was a 10 shot .22 revolver.

default
June 1, 2007, 11:21 PM
I am of the opinion that conspiracy theories about the Kennedy assassination are largely believed by people who have never shot a rifle. That a Marine could repeatedly hit a slowly-moving target less than 100 yards away with a scoped centerfire bolt-action rifle does not strike me as being at all remarkable.

For example, the average conspiracy theorist scornfully drops the phrase "bolt-action rifle" as if bolt-action rifles are somehow intrinsically less accurate than self-loading rifles. Strange then that the Army and Marine Corps still equip snipers with them...to make shots at 10 times the distance Oswald made his.

270Win
June 1, 2007, 11:43 PM
Although, I remember reading from several sources that Oswald's marksmanship scores were among the worst possible...

Ash
June 1, 2007, 11:47 PM
Even though they weren't great, that he was just a "marksman," he was still a trained shot with an open-sighted rifle. Heck, a guy could have made that shot with an SKS at those ranges.

Ash

default
June 2, 2007, 12:00 AM
a guy could have made that shot with an SKS at those ranges.

I actually wrote that in the first draft of my post, but edited it out due to my relative lack of experience shooting rifles. But it seems sensible, doesn't it?

psegnatelli
June 2, 2007, 12:28 AM
If you've ever shot a carcano you'd have doubts on his shooting ability. They are far from smooth. Their's a world of difference between Oswald's rifle and a 700

gdvan01
June 2, 2007, 12:31 AM
it was a pulse rifle in the 40 watt range of course.Hey, just what you see, pal.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
June 2, 2007, 12:32 AM
That reminds me...I need to set out some empty hulls to get green in time for tourist season in November. We always leave the tourists a little 'souvenir' every year over around the Grassy Knoll.

Regards,
Rabbit.

eliphalet
June 2, 2007, 01:08 AM
It honestly looked like the back of his head exploded,which means that the shot had to come from the front (grassy knoll). Right?, or was I just imagining things?. I know from many years of shooting at various objects that the entrance hole is small round and clean while the exit hole is bigger and opened up.
I kinda agree with this. I have shot dozens of Big game animals from many different distances and undoubtly thousands of small game critters, most with a 22 but plenty with a centerfire rifle. I have yet to have pieces of the creature whatever it was, blow back toward me that I can remember. If you watch the video in Slow motion a portion the back of the mans scull/hair went toward the back seat.
Anything is possible I guess, and I tend to adhere to the old adage of not believing anything you hear, and only half of what you see, but I have not seen bullets do that.

I also remember hearing back then that the bullet had entered the rear, followed the scull around and exited to the rear. I have not seen that either, not with bone and a centerfire bullet for sure.

Beagle-zebub
June 2, 2007, 01:33 AM
I'm going to say that I lean towards believing that Oswald was the shooter. He (IIRC) bounced one off of the concrete, then hit Kennedy and Connelly in the back, and then got lucky with the head-shot. As for JFK's head jerking backwards, prairie dogs can jump into the air from convulsions due to getting hit in the brain, as I understand, so I'd say that something similar could have happened with Kennedy's neck convulsing. The Zapruder film is so grainy and shakey anyway for me see anything I could undoubtedly say was JFK-brain getting blown backwards--in this one (at the very end, 1:12 to 1:14), it looks like the front right side of his head explodes as if from an exit wound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3-lZNR_yAc
Guh, that video really is pretty horrible.

lamanna
June 2, 2007, 02:45 AM
The video is pretty strange... to me anyway, maybe it's because I've never shot at anything other than a paper target but try explain it to me.

From what I've read if you shoot something with a hollow point it will make a bullet sized entry wound then make a much bigger exit wound. I'm assuming this is what happened to JFK, the video shows the front of his head blowing out so the shot came from behind? But how did brain matter get on the trunk of the car?

I saw a video on youtube where they first aired the Zapruder footage in 1975. The guys commenting the video said the shot had to come from the front because JFK's head jerked backward. But why was the entry wound so big at the front of his head?

STAGE 2
June 2, 2007, 04:32 AM
As a carcano owner I think its entirely possible that oswald was the shooter. The rifle is much maligned, often by people who have never actually held one let alone shoot it. Its no national match 1903, but than again at half a football field away with a scope you don't need a match rifle either. Further, a properly trained rifleman can easily work the bolt fast enough.

cracked butt
June 2, 2007, 09:01 AM
Further, a properly trained rifleman can easily work the bolt fast enough.

A left handed rifleman can work that bolt at least twice as fast yet as long as the rifle is resting on something. LHO was said to be left handed.

I'm 100% convinced that LHO did the deed. I recently seen a computer simultaion done by experts who do simulated computer reinactments of automobile and industrial accidents. Using the Zabruder film alone, they were able to determine that the angles of the shots were dead on correct for the agle of the wounds and bullet holes traced back to the window LHO shot out of.

Jubjub
June 2, 2007, 11:04 AM
The physicist Luis Alvarez demonstrated long ago that shooting an object can make it move in the direction the shot came from. He used melons wrapped in tape to simulate a head. Apparently the ejection of the contents (melon pulp or brain tissue) in the direction of the shot causes the outer portion to recoil towards the shot. At any rate, the muscular response to a severe head injury is far out of proportion to the effect of the bullet. Watch R Lee Ermey shoot some melons on Mail Call. Stuff sprays out of them, but they don't go anywhere.

There was a show on a year or two ago where they built two torsos of ballistic gelatin, complete with human bones, placed them at the proper range and in the proper positions, and fired a shot from a Carcano, using ammo from the same lot of surplus Western that Oswald used. Interestingly, the ammo was apparently manufactured by Western for the CIA for use in the Bay of Pigs invasion.

At any rate, the shot penetrated the upper back/neck of the Kennedy torso, tumbled and struck the back of the Connelly torso going sideways, exited and went through the wrist model, hit the thigh model and bounced off. Other than the lack of penetration into the thigh, it was a perfect match for the Kennedy magic bullet shot. The spent bullet even looked almost identical to the JFK bullet. They found later that their shot had hit ribs on both sides of the Connelly torso instead of only one side in the historical shot, which they thought was why it didn't penetrate slightly into the thigh as the actual shot did.

yokel
June 2, 2007, 11:46 AM
Guh, that video really is pretty horrible.
Graphic and grim footage to be sure.

6.5 Carcano is definitely nothing to sneeze at!:what:

eliphalet
June 2, 2007, 01:10 PM
At any rate, the muscular response to a severe head injury is far out of proportion to the effect of the bullet. Watch R Lee Ermey shoot some melons on Mail Call. Stuff sprays out of them, but they don't go
Ever finish off a wounder deer at 50 yards or less with a 30 caliber centerfire? Believe me the head doesn't just stay there no matter what a taped watermelon does. It can be flung violently in the opposite direction of the shot taken, with tissue flying. Gelatin and melons are not flesh and blood, I have shot both, it ain't the same scientific or not. But then if you try hard enough and your expert enough you can just about get what ever desired result you want. All I know is what a real head will do with in real situations, or a few I have witnessed.

gunny1022
June 2, 2007, 01:27 PM
Woody Harrlesons father, in prison for a contract killing of a judge, told a cellmate taped that he was the shooter on the grassy knoll with a model 70 in .270 Winchester.

Zonamo
June 2, 2007, 03:14 PM
Computer reconstruction of the JFK Assassination (http://www.jfkfiles.com/index.html)

They don't have the actual animation on the website, but I saw it aired on the History Channel and it was quite convincing.

Of course nothing will ever satisfy consiparcy theorists. Any refutation of their conspiracy theory is just more proof of the existence of a conspiraccy.

Mauserguy
June 2, 2007, 03:49 PM
You guys are all wrong. Oh, sure they framed Oswald with a Carcano, but everybody knows that Kennedy was actually killed with a Model 1860 rifled musket; after all, numerous eye witnesses saw gunsmoke from the grassy knoll.
Mauserguy

slzy
June 2, 2007, 04:12 PM
that guy that drove oswald to work that morning asked what was in the package,lee said "curtain rods" ?! you can see lee thinking "curtains for kennedy ,alright". and the police asked marina if lee had a rifle and when she picked up the blanket,it draped across her arms. she puy 2+2 together then i am sure. if there were a conspiracy,[big if] it involved the cover up of the secret service man getting tangled up with his new-fangled ar-15 in the caddy trailing.

Vern Humphrey
June 2, 2007, 04:13 PM
You guys are all wrong. Oh, sure they framed Oswald with a Carcano, but everybody knows that Kennedy was actually killed with a Model 1860 rifled musket; after all, numerous eye witnesses saw gunsmoke from the grassy knoll.
Mauserguy
That is a common mistake made by amateurs of the assassination. It has been proven that Rosie O'Donnel was on the grassy knoll, wearing panty hose. She broke wind, it blew her shoes off, and one hit JFK in the head, killing him.

Leanwolf
June 2, 2007, 06:44 PM
GUNNY1022 - "Woody Harrlesons father, in prison for a contract killing of a judge, told a cellmate taped that he was the shooter on the grassy knoll with a model 70 in .270 Winchester."

Gunny1022, I wouldn't put too much stock in ANYTHING a jailhouse "confessor" says, if I were you. Especially a nutcase like Harrelson's pa. :eek:

L.W.

rocinante
June 2, 2007, 07:44 PM
One of the things I semi distinctly remember as a kid was a television special about the assassination. I might been seven. They set up a tower at the proper height and drove a car in the same path and speed as Kennedy's limo at the same range. i.e. they simulated the shot exactly. Shooter with same rifle and same ammo popped the head off the mannequin no problem.

Limeyfellow
June 2, 2007, 07:50 PM
I think the main problem we had was the way the feds screwed up everything that happened after the shooting. If they hadn't changed the body bag and ambulance he was in half way through the trip. If they hadn't ignored all the world leading autopsy and firearms experts and had a couple of locals with little experience do the investigation and kept everything so hush hush. If they hadn't taken away video footage of the people in the area and then claimed it was lost somehow etc, we wouldn't be having this argument today.

The same thing happens today alot too. They try covering a story over every event and it just makes them seem untrustworthy when the truth comes out and ask why they felt the need to cover up such obvious events if there wasn't something behind it all.

kungfuhippie
June 2, 2007, 08:15 PM
They had a carcano at the San Bernardino, CA turners a year or two ago that had been bubba'd into a Lee Harvey Oswald recreation, same odd scope needed to load the clip. I handled it, worked the bolt and almost bought it-didn't due to a lack of ammo avaliability. But I also saw the film, and own it, that has the computer simulation of the shots. It was easily done, and it wouldn't take a good shot to do it. And Oswald didn't do a very good job of shooting IMHO, but he did get the job done. So I have to agree that he did it with a nice little mil-surp carcano that he bought from a catalog and had delivered to his house.

Patriot-Brewer
June 3, 2007, 02:45 AM
I've never shot at a moving target @ 50-100 yards with a 4X scope mounted on a .30 caliber bolt action.
Wouldn't the sight picture/target be bouncing all over the place while working the bolt, or is the action smooth and the recoil mild on that rifle/round?

kungfuhippie
June 3, 2007, 03:31 AM
fairly smooth bolt (think mauser, not mosin), shouldn't bounce much when it's being rested on a window sill. No need to maintain visual through scope while working bolt, just means you need a little longer to re-aim. Very do-able technically. I bet Oswald had adrenaline flowing like crazy. If someone wants to buy me a Carcano with scope, a R/C car, some ammo and a cardboard target. I'd be willing, for scientific purposes, make a video of a live fire test. Anyone curious enough? If you want less authentic I'll try with a scoped mauser, but I still need an r/c car that can travel at parade speed.

This would only be for scientific curiosity

geronimo13
June 3, 2007, 05:25 AM
interesting complete story on jfk assassination @ google video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4315024059102108031&q=bush+jfk++assassination
Alex Jones-Bush JfK connection video title. See the actual FBI Hoover paper naming Bush as the head of the assassination. Also same crew does a nice job on Jfk Jr.s assassination @ http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-342185930070503560&q=bush+jfk++assassination
Bobby was shot by an 8 shot revolver by Sirhan (who was 1-3ft away) but the fatal shot was delivered to the back of the head (less than 3") as LA coroner testified to.

slzy
June 3, 2007, 11:37 AM
maybe off topic... dorothy killgallen interviewed jack ruby while he was in jail. she went back to new york for Whats My Line? and died that same night. Bennett Cerf was the head of random house,and John Charles Daly was Earl Warrens son-in-law. surely they would have talked about any revelations if she had any to relate.

Beagle-zebub
June 3, 2007, 02:19 PM
I too saw the hour-long History Channel special that Jubjub saw, and I gotta say, it was pretty convincing in its arguments to the effect that Oswald was the shooter.

Joe Demko
June 5, 2007, 10:39 AM
I owned a Carcano. To make the shots at the modest distances involved would be easy. The 6.5 Carcano has mild recoil and the rifles aren't all the POS conspiracy nuts make them out to be. The particular specimen I owned was the equal of any pre-war or early war military Mauser in its workmanship.

SWMAN
June 5, 2007, 11:03 AM
The invisible gunman on the grassy knoll used an invisible rifle with invisible ammunition made by the Invisible Corporation.

Franco2shoot
June 5, 2007, 11:30 AM
Just my 2c but here's my observation.

Years ago, while in Dallas, and killing time since my wife was in a Medical convention I went to the Depository and spent almost an hour just sitting looking out the window. It was mid week and there wasn't much in the way of tourist activity. I don't know if it is still open to the public today, but I could stand in exactly LHO's position. After thinking and watching IMHO he didn't act alone. Oh, I think he took some shots, but if you stand there and your gonna shoot anything, a deer, a melon, a head in a car, you don't take the shot at the most impossible angle. Looking down as the motorcade approached, the easiest least motion shot is as the car makes the turn. From the window looking down that's where anyone with two brain cells first pulls the trigger. If you've ever shot at rabbits out in a field, you don't try and plink him on the run(in a scope its hard to even track a moving target), you wait for him to stop and pop his head up. Maybe LHO froze at that "Best shot moment" or maybe he was told what spot to start shooting! There are just too many Funnies for me to believe the Single shooter theory, especially after sitting there and just watching. It was a very sobering experience.

KKKKFL

LAK
June 5, 2007, 12:02 PM
Mr. George de Mohrenschildt might have been able to tell us. Alas de Mohrenschildt lost his head over the whole matter - literally - at the eleventh hour of spilling the beans in 1977. The other man most likely to have told us - E. Howard Hunt - has also now passed away and taken nearly all his bag of beans with him.

No wonder so much government information concerning all this is classifed for a good few years to come - can't have any contrary witnesses around when the fairytales are "substantiated".

----------------------------------

http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

DonP
June 5, 2007, 12:15 PM
If any of you folks have actually been to the area around the Book Depository where it all took place, the overwhelming impression is how close everything is.

On TV, with wide angle lenses, the area looks huge and spread out. The reality is it is a relatively small open area.

FYI, Conspiracy Buffs, the Grassy Knoll is to the right of the motorcade route and any shot from there would have been going from right to left, not front to back. But then again I guess magic bullets can go anywhere they want to.

To be shot from front to back, as some folks propose, the shot would have had to come from the overpass they were about to drive under.

The shot used the Carcano with a 4X scope from Kline's sporting goods here in Chicago that he bought mail order for $12.95 or so. I think he used WWII FMJ surplus ammunition from Kline's too. The limo was moving at something like 8 mph and moving pretty much straight away and slightly downhill from the Book Depository window.

The distances were actually pretty short for a scoped rifle (or even for iron sights). After having seen the area first hand I no longer have any doubts about the shot being possible or whether a single shooter could have done the damage with two or three shots with a bolt action.

STAGE 2
June 5, 2007, 03:26 PM
If any of you folks have actually been to the area around the Book Depository where it all took place, the overwhelming impression is how close everything is.

Bingo. Thats exactly the impression I got when I was there. The X painted on the road where the first shot occured isn't a tall task at all with iron sights, let alone a scope.

Vern Humphrey
June 5, 2007, 04:41 PM
The longest shot was only about 80 yards -- and virtuially a straight going-away shot.

That's if you discount Kaptan Klutz of the Secret Service, all tangled up in his AR 15, which may well have accidentally discharged.

mindwip
June 5, 2007, 06:43 PM
Heres a link to youtube that has the computer sim about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r51wZTaJ3AU

Cosmoline
June 5, 2007, 08:18 PM
The knoll, sewer grate, overpass, and all the other possibilities for second or third shooters become absurd when you actually take a look at them. Shooting from the side as the car moved past would not only risk hitting someone in the crowd (thus creating a clear line with two points) but would be vastly more difficult than shooting from the BD window.

I don't know if LHO was the shooter. Maybe he was eating in the cafeteria. Since there was no trial we'll never know. But whoever the shooter was, the window in the BD would have been an excellent spot for it.

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