[New_comer]

Very odd... :confused:


Here's a pistol which probably has the most rabid following of all gun designs, yet has no formal name!!!


What gives???!!!


There's the Hi-Power, the Luger, the Pee-Pee-Khay, the Hi-Point (say what??!! :uhoh: ;))...


Could I call my USP '1999' then?? What's with the 'date' thing?


THR Historians, any clues? More importantly....


What name would you have given it, when it first 'rolled' out???

[BigG]

Colt 45 Automatic Pistol

[rblack]

1911 is the year it went into service with the military.

[Sean Smith]

Actually, the gun does have a name: the Colt Government Model. That's the name given to the first commercial version of the Model 1911, and both were made by Colt. The military used to always name its weapons by the date they were adopted.

[TarpleyG]

Besides, a lot of guns throught history are "dated." Russian guns especially like the Mosin Nagant and AKs.

GT

[Walt Sherrill]

Some of the names you cited were given much later. Some names don't make sense. Stuff happens.

Nearly all guns have formal or "marketing" names. That doesn't mean that the buying public uses them.

The Colt version of the 1911 was called the "Colt Government Model 1911A1" or "Colt Model 1911A1 Military." When other folks besides Colt started making them, they dropped Colt and kept the 1911(A1).

The Luger was never called the Luger by the companies that made them. Mine was made by Mauser, but many other companies made them under contract to the German government.

Luger was the designer, but not the company. And John Browning designed the 1911, but we don't call the 1911 a Browning. (JB also designed the P-35, but another designer may have had MORE input to the design; that second designer's name is almost lost to history, while Browning, who died before the gun was made, is given all the credit.)

The gun you call the Luger was model P-08 (Pistole 08), military nomenclature reflecting the year it was introduced.

The Hi-Point is a company name. And believe me, Hi-Points are called a lot of names.

The Hi-Power was first called the P-35.

Don't look for rationality in any of this.

[E357]

The first ones placed into service said "MODEL OF 1911. U. S. ARMY" on the right side of the slide.

Elliot

[Johnny Guest]

And the Polish service pistol, model 1935, is usually called the "Radom," in the U.S. That was the arsenal where production began. I believe the generally accepted name in Europe is the "Vis." From the designer??? I dunno.

I found it interesting that, in Canada, almost any semi-auto pistol is called a "Browning," regardless of the maker. This makes SOME sense, as J. M. Browning had a hand in designing so many of 'em. Of course, their service pistol for many years was the P-35 as produced by the Inglis Boiler Works and was indeed marked "Browning Patent." Other than the Inglis-produced pistols, the P35 was and is produced by FN in Belgium.

Colt never marketed their .380 as the "Model 1908." This was a later, mostly collector, nomenclature. Colt just called it their Pocket Pistol, calibre .380.

Best,
Johnny

[1911Tuner]

"Old Ugly" "Old Bigmouth" "Old Slabsides"

Who said they ain't got names?:D

Cheers!
Tuner

[dfariswheel]

I think the 1911 label is because the basic design has become so generic, that nothing else is really descriptive.

A Luger, no matter who made it, or when, is still an almost exact copy of the original model. Imagine a .40 caliber plastic-framed double action-only "Luger" that barely resembled an original 1908.

The 1911 runs from the original, still available Colt Government Model, to polymer-framed and DA models that scarcely look like a 1911. Many new 1911's are NOT "Government Models" in any sense. They are so radically different, that only the generic "1911" label is an adequate description.

Under the skin they're "1911" guns, but they're NOT Colt Government Models, Commanders, or Officer's ACP's.
They aren't even "Colt's" in any sense.

The 1911's all use the same basic trigger mechanism, tilting barrel, sear/disconnecter, firing pin, and frame/slide design, and many of these basic parts will interchange between wildly different versions, but they aren't "Colt's" nor are they "Government Models".

All cars have the basic design of a motor, transmission, 4 wheels, and a steering wheel, but we don't call them all "Ford"s". We've settled on the generic term, cars".

[El Tejon]

newcomer, just think of the Japanese or the Chinee. They prefer "Type" and the year; the Americans, sometimes, use "M" and the year.

Sometimes we use the same designation for completely different things--M4, M16, M1, et al. We keep the enemy (and our allies) guessing!:D

[TheMariner]

adding onto what dfariswheel said... now days, I see alot of people properly referring to the "1911"s of today as 1911-pattern weapons... since many do look and act like the original...

[Lone_Gunman]

Model "O" is another official name for the 1911.

Model "P" is the SAA.

[Dr.Rob]

Too true, all civilian models of the 1911 are marked "Colt Government Model" but were widely just called the "45", since no other auto pistol was commercially available that fired the cartridge. The 45 or Colt 45 was later called a 1911, as a generic platform (since its a design that's in the public domain) by other companies to market Colt style autos. Let's face it Springfield, SW, Dan Wesson, Les Baer and others aren't selling "Colt Style" autos, they are selling 1911 based designs.

Blame it on the marketing department.

The "Single Action Army" was called the model P for years, and while unofficially called the Peacemaker, Colt didn'tuse that name officially for years.

A P-38 was later called a P-1 and for a short time in WW2 everything was called M-1 (which I'll never understand, as in Rifle Cal .30 M1; Carbine , Cal .30 M1 (not the same ammo) and Submachinegun, Cal .45, M1).

I think Government Model was a good name, still is.

[dsk]

If you're in the military:

Pistol, Automatic, Caliber .45, Model of 1911

Pistol, Automatic, Caliber .45, Model of 1911A1

If you're a knowledgeable civilian:

Colt Government Model .45 Automatic

If you're just being informal:

Old Slabsides

If you're a non-gun person:

Colt .45

That ugly black thingy grandpa brought back from the war

If you're a gun magazine writer:

Add "Venerable" in front of all the above until the reader gets sick of hearing it.

Of all the dumb things to call a 1911, I'd say the award for the dumbest name goes to Springfield: "Loaded Model" :scrutiny:

[GSB]

dsk, the "loaded model" is the one with extra cheese and three different meat toppings, isn't it?

[El Tejon]

dsk, for gun hacks you forgot the flowered-shirts and photos of you pointing the pistol at yourself.:uhoh:

[Tamara]

Here's a pistol which probably has the most rabid following of all gun designs, yet has no formal name!!!

Neither does the P7 or the 92FS nor any model of Glock...

(That's just for starters, I'm sure there's more.)

(PS: The reason the Japanese automakers used numbers instead of names for their upmarket lines in the US? It sounded more European. ;) )

[New_comer]

the Luger was model P-08 ... The Hi-Power was first called the P-35... military nomenclature reflecting the year it was introduced
If so, why wasn't the 1911 the "P-11" (pardon to KelTec & 1911 fans;))

I remember a discussion a while back on the reason for the "P-X" series, having been the order a pistol design had been adopted as the official police sidearm in Germany. And I know that the 92FS is the M9, which is its military codename

But the 1911 is unique in the sense that only 'it' was popularly christened as a gun with a date for a name. Why it wasn't called the A1, which I think it actually is, truly perplexes me...

Really odd... :rolleyes:

[Mike Irwin]

"Why wasn't the P-11..."

Because the United States uses M, for Model, in its military nomenclature. The French use/used Mle in the same way. Mle is the abbreviation for the French word for Model.

Other nations use P for Pattern (Britain) or P for Pistol (or the national language variation).

As for only the 1911 having a year designation, not true...

You've also got the S&W and Colt M1917 revolvers, the M1903 Springfield, the M1917 Enfield, the M1928 Thompson, etc.

The military changed its nomenclature in the 1930s to do away with the year designator.

After that it became M1 Garand rifle, M1 Carbine, etc.

[dfariswheel]

The reason it's "The 1911" and not "The P-45", is because every country had and has a different model naming convention.

The German's used "P" for pistol when they adopted the P-08 Luger, the P-38, and post-war the P-1, P-4, etc.
The US used years adopted as naming conventions for US equipment, up until the mid-1930's.

That's why we had the Models of 1861 rifle-musket, the 1860 Colt Army, the 1873 Colt Single Action Army, the 1903 Springfield, and the 1911 pistol.
In the 30's the convention was changed to the "M" prefix, and that's why we now use the "M-16" rifle and the "M-9" pistol, which means Military rifle #16 and pistol #9.

As an aside: Why did we have fighter planes numbered as the F-86, F-105, F-111, then the F-14, F-15- and F-16, then the F-117?

How about the M-4 tank, M-48, The M-60, then the M1?

[Jim Watson]

Not unique.
All Winchesters up through the 1912 pump are identified by their year of introduction. They just left off the century after sometime in the 1920s. A '73 is normally taken to be a Winchester rifle not a Colt SAA or Springfield Trapdoor of that same year.