[H&Hhunter]

In the latest issue of African hunter magazine there is a very interesting article of the danger of using shotguns to stop a wounded leapord or lion.

86% of Professional hunter injuries. That's right 86%!!!! are caused by wounded leapords. And the majority of those are after a shot gun loaded with buck shot failed to stop a charge.

Any buckshot/ bear defense proponents care to to comment?

This is the third article of it's type that I've read in the last 6 months. Magnum magazine of South Africa recentley has had two such articles written about professional hunters who've been severly mauled or killed when using a shotgun for cat defense.

WWW.African-hunter.com

I don't know what the sight is for magnum.

But the issue reference is: Volume 28 number 4 Article is on page 66 entitled "Buckshot for charging cats? shotguns are for the birds."

[Andrew Wyatt]

what about PH's using shotguns with slug?

[H&Hhunter]

Andrew,
The article actually mentions using slugs as a viable and effective use of a shotgun.

The danger is in using buckshot and it's abhorent lack of penetration. The shotgun itself is a great tool when used with the proper ammunition I.E. a good slug.

I totally agree and recomend the shotgun with a slug in a dangerous short range situation on anything short of thick skinned game.

[Dr.Rob]

H&H, don't most pro huntersstill use SSG (which is #4buckshot, not 00) or am I still oudated in my reading?

I know Capstick wore quite a strange get-up when going after a wounded leopard (gorget, helmet, heavy leather vest) so the stat doesn't suprise me.

[Art Eatman]

"Unmarked hunters are those who do not let anything nasty get anywhere near point blank range until after it has been skinned."

Sounds good to me!

:), Art

[HankB]

My Zambian PH said he wanted 000 - that's Triple-0 - buckshot in his close-in shotgun, with a full choke so the shot wouldn't spread much. (Of course, he didn't believe me when I said sometimes buckshot groups better with a more open choke, but what does a dumb Yankee know?)

He claimed that anything with smaller shot wouldn't penetrate a lion's skull reliably, and a head shot was the ONLY way to reliably stop a charging lion with a shotgun.

[H&Hhunter]

Dr Rob,

Many PH's still do use the SSG load. Brian Marsh and many others old hands are trying to get the word out. Buckshot may well get you killed. And the proof is in the hospital bills.

I've stopped quoting anything from Capstick when it comes to actual hunting. He was one heck of an adventure writter, one of my favorites as a matter of fact.

The problem is with his legitamacy as a PH. If you search the Rolland and Ward books there is not one entry that includes P.H.C. as the professional hunter. Rather suspicious I'd say for a man with so many proported years as a PH.

This statement is not ment to belittle the ferocity of a wounded Lion or a Leapord.

I agree with the modern consensus however that Buck shot is an iffy at best proposition. And the statistics seem to have some validity in this matter.

The article mentions heavier buckshot as well. The general consensus seems to be that a good fast handling rifle of appropriate caliber and familiarity is the way to go and produces less accidents in the field.

[Preacherman]

H&H, I spoke with Peter Capstick about this during a visit in Cape Town in the early 1990's. I had the same reservations as are expressed in the article about the use of buckshot on dangerous game.

Peter replied that at anything other than short ranges, this was indeed a valid point: but his experience was that any shots directed at a wounded, charging big cat would be measured in feet rather than yards. At such a range, the shot is hitting in a solid mass, rather than as individual pellets, and does an immense amount of damage. Furthermore, he claimed that after impact, the pellets spread out inside the cat, thus increasing the wound, shock and bleeding effect. He also mentioned a shooting of a big cat (I can't recall if it was a leopard or a lion, or whether he or someone else shot it - I believe it's mentioned in one of his books) with a load of birdshot at one time, and claimed that it finished the cat off perfectly adequately (again, hitting as a solid mass rather than as individual pellets).

IMHO, he has a valid point about extremely close-range shots. However, I'd still feel more comfortable with Brennekes in my pump-gun, thank you very much! :uhoh:

[Art Eatman]

A datum missing from all this, regarding that 86%, is the distance when the trigger was pulled.

It would take better nerves than a Manolete to wait and wait and wait...and then pull trigger.

:), Art

[Atticus]

What is the shotgun being compared against? Relatively speaking, WHAT IS more successfull at close range on a wounded leopard than a SG loaded with 00? I would assume that a big cat has at least an 85% chance of getting a hold of you, if it is wounded ,yet mobile, and within a few yards- regardless of what your carrying.

[H&Hhunter]

Atticus,
Quite a valid point as we don't have all the data available as to make a scientific absolute.

But I can promise you that a quick pair of 500gr .470 or .458 or some such soft points ain't going to have a penetration problem. And they can be done at signifigantly longer range than a scatter gun using buck. (NOTE, PLEASE DO NOT BRING UP THE OLD CAKED POWDER UNDER PENTRATION .458 WIN PROBLEM) it's really not a factor in modern ammunition.

I'd venture to say that most guys that are getting tasted probably started the party at too long of a range. And of course there's that big bad old variable called bad luck ;)

Preacherman,

Please don't take this wrong. If peter was a friend of yours I mean no disrespect. But can you provide any validation as to P.H.C.s Professional hunting career? And if so why is he not listed in any trophy books?

It would give me great pleasure to have some proof as he is my favorite author.

Edited for spelling 1730 Mountain time 6-26-03 H&Hhunter

[Rick Teal]

DrRob:

SG is the equivalent to your "O" Buck, and SSG's are the same as "OO". Up here our packaging is marked in both. Number 4 Buck is all imported and marked as such.

Rick

[JShirley]

Preach,

Capstick said he was bird hunting and shot a lioness with bird shot at a few feet. Claimed it almost took her head off.

Unfortunately, since I've seen exactly what birdshot does at about 2' to wood, I must doubt it.

John

[Al Thompson]

John, I've killed some stuff with birdshot and if your close, it does work.

My take on PHC is thhat if he wasn't the real deal, his skill at writing makes up for it. I found more of his thoughts and recommendations to be true when I went to Africa than not. The PH I had didn't even read much English, but he made a lot of the same points.

[Preacherman]

H&H, I met Capstick a few times - he wasn't a close personal friend, but rather an acquaintance. I also knew some of his clients who hunted with him back in his Luangwa Valley days - they were clients of friends of mine who owned very large farms in the Transvaal, and offered hunting there, near to the Kruger National Park and in the Lowveld, and also out near the Zimbabwe border. His clients (and my PH friends) all spoke of Capstick with respect and affection. I don't know about record book entries: I suspect that while he seems to have got his clients into trophies, none of them were of earth-shattering dimensions - and considering the areas he hunted, in Zambia, Zimbabwe and Botswana, none of those places are particularly high on the "record specimen territory" list, IIRC (at least during the periods he was hunting there). The widespread violence of the Rhodesian wars and their aftermath probably had a lot to do with this...

Based on my own experience of those areas, I regard his writing as very authentic and suitably engrossing. Don't forget that he was a transplanted American, describing Africa in terms of his own background and experience - rather different from the average British or African descriptions one encounters in other books. To my mind, that adds to the value of his writing: he can describe Africa in a way that grasps the American imagination, where other books might seem a bit stodgy by comparison.

Rick, in South Africa, the designations of buckshot are rather different from what you describe. IIRC, from largest shot size to smallest, they are:

LG - 8-9 pellets;
SG - approx. 12 pellets;
SSG - 16-18 pellets;
AAA - 30 - 32 pellets.

The variation in quantity is due to different manufacturers, different shell sizes, etc. It's so long since I used the stuff that I don't recall off-hand what the "average" pellet count was.

[H&Hhunter]

Preacherman,
Thanks for that. I have to agree with you on P.H.C.s writting absoloutley captavating! He more than any other factor is responsible for the ever lasting demand for African hunting. He was and still is the primary marketing force for the hunting industry. Possibly the only reason many countries still allow hunting at all.

All the other other guys,
No matter the shot size given the numerous documented penetration failures with all types of buckshot. Would you feel comfortable using it as a dangerous game platform? And more importantly would you feel comfortable using it for big bear protection when it so clearly has a dubious at best record on thin skinned light boned fe-lines?

Even with 000 buck your still counting on one 32 cal lead ball to take care of bussiness for you. And I say just one because in the real world the sun doesn't always shine on the same dogs butt. And we can't count on getting that perfect shot. And if your gun patterns as tight as it should then your not getting any spread advantage from a shotgun at close range anyway. So why not use a projectile that'll do the trick? By which I mean end for end penetration from any angle putting a big hole in both ends and through the middle.

[Al Thompson]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1083&highlight=boar

I second H&H's thoughts.

[H&Hhunter]

Al,
Isn't amazing how one ounce of been there is worth 55 tons of read about it.;)

[Al Thompson]

:) Yepper buddy. I was :what: when I skinned that critter.

[Byron Quick]

I was there when Al skinned that boar. Never had been much of a buckshot man. Even less now.

Those gristle plates are pretty damn tough, though.

[H&Hhunter]

Yep,
I've seen the same results on several boars. Buckshot just ain't the stuff on tough critters. I had a guy out on the ranch several years ago who was a tried and true buckshot man who brought out his fancy tight patterned Hans Vang comp 870 with turbo magnum buckshot.

In any case he's back to slugs or rifles now.

[rebbryan]

if they didn't make a clean kill, i find it hard to label them a "professional hunter". maybe their experience will teach em to go to the range more often

[H&Hhunter]

Rebbryan,
I think your a little confused as to what the professional hunters job is. He's the guy who goes in a sorts out the wounded whatever after his client has made a bad shot.

A professional hunter is the African term for "hunting guide."

And I've said it before and I'll say it again the sun doesn't always shine on the same dogs butt. If you've never muffed a shot than it's a matter of one of two things

A. You haven't done much hunting.

B. The whole truth ain't being told.

I've seen some world class hunters/shooters blow it during the moment of truth.;)

[rebbryan]

yup, my mistake. i now remember that guy from American Handgunner talkin about professional hunters. i guess i took the term literally as a "good" hunter.

[Byron Quick]

rebbryan,

A good hunter will muff shots if he gets a lot of shots.

Tell you one of mine. The buck was thirty yards away. Quartered. I was aiming at his left short ribs. The shot was lined up to exit his right shoulder. Just before the trigger broke, he moved to his right. The bullet went into his left shoulder, blew the bone out on the ground, but did not enter his thoracic cavity. .300 Win Mag.

I can routinely take-and make-shots out to 300 yards with that rifle. I've killed 30 odd deer with it.

The only one I muffed with that rifle was the closest shot I've ever had.

Similar thing happened last year with a .35 Whelen. First deer I'd shot with that rifle. So-so seven point at 100 yards. I was aiming at his right front shoulder. Shot I was planning would have come out his left short ribs.
(I like that shot) He jinked to his left just as the trigger broke. Shot went into to his right short ribs and exited his left hip. It split his aorta and the shock got his spinal cord. He bled out within 30-45 seconds-dead right there...but it was still a muffed shot. If he had jinked six inches more than he did... it would have been a clean miss.

It doesn't matter how much you go to the range, if the animal moves in the tenth of a second before the trigger breaks. You're right in the zone where your nerve impulses from your eye to your brain to your spinal cord to your finger...take longer to react than you've got available. And you just shot or missed an animal...with the odds being that it's not a clean kill.

[Art Eatman]

Yeah, that "take a step" deal can really make a big difference in where the bullet hits. I can recall a couple, right offhand. Both were to be neck shots. On one dlittle buck, the step meant the bullet ruined about a fourth of the backstrap, even though it was a DRT deer. On the other, the "neck shot" turned into an angling-down shoulder shot. It was a devastating hit and all, with a huge blood trail, but it sure wasn't what I had planned.

Something coming at you that has teeth and claws, or horns and hooves, I can see where even a topnotch shooter could goof. Heck, just dealing with an irate cow or horse that wants to ruin you is rather exciting...And painful.

Art

[H&Hhunter]

There are a just to many variables in the field. Good shooting does not always garuntee a clean kill. I won't mention any names but I watched one of the premiere hunter/writers in America miss a coyote at less than 15 yards standing. Just one of those deals.

I'd be a liar if I said I haven't done the same. Shoot in Africa several months ago I muffed a standing 1/4 on shot on a wildebeast at 90 or so yards. I think he must have jumped just as I shot but the bullet as far as I can tell went through the shoulder meat never touched vitals and hit a cow standing behind him in the nose. I've also made hundreds of tougher shots than that. Just goes to show you.;)

And as art said then add 1800lbs of piss off buff or a leapord staring cold venom into your soul. A little adreniline a little shake and by golly you've got the recipie for a world class muffed shot.

[Sunray]

Nobody, and I mean nobody, uses buckshot on a lion. Nobody. Period. A lion is 450 to 500 pounds and 10 foot long kitty. Ain't no buckshot going to do anything to a lion except annoy him. It won't stop his charge in a million years. And it won't bother a charging, PO'd, 90 kilo(about 200 pounds) leopard either.

[Blain]

H&H who are you fooling again? Magnum buckshot is the most powerful round inside of 25 yards bar none (and ever farther if you have the right pattern). Not much that a 3 1/2" load of 0000 would solve on this earth at that range.

Peter replied that at anything other than short ranges, this was indeed a valid point: but his experience was that any shots directed at a wounded, charging big cat would be measured in feet rather than yards. At such a range, the shot is hitting in a solid mass, rather than as individual pellets, and does an immense amount of damage. Furthermore, he claimed that after impact, the pellets spread out inside the cat, thus increasing the wound, shock and bleeding effect. He also mentioned a shooting of a big cat (I can't recall if it was a leopard or a lion, or whether he or someone else shot it - I believe it's mentioned in one of his books) with a load of birdshot at one time, and claimed that it finished the cat off perfectly adequately (again, hitting as a solid mass rather than as individual pellets).

[Tamara]

Not to be nosy, but popping off on hunters with many decades of experience in the field is pretty bold, so I'm kind of curious as to what experience you have to contradict theirs. How many lions have you shot with buck? Did they go down quickly? How about other dangerous game? Did it work well on, say, Cape Buffalo?

[Blain]

Well....not to be bold myself, but ask H&H that buckshot question ;). He knows of a gent that put a Cape Buff down with ONE shot of a standard 9 pellet 00 buck load ;) Go ahead....ask him. :D

[Tamara]

Manfred von Richtofen was killed with one rifle caliber bullet, but I don't recommend .303's as the premium weapon for chasing down fighter planes, if you know what I mean... ;)

[Blain]

Hey.....shotguns have shot down fighter planes too! :D

[sm]

H&H
What type of slug is used in Africa? Does one have to use the shotgun ammo available in region , or can our (US) type ammo be used--allowed to be brought in?

Hey I read Ruark...he never answered that question for me ;)

I find this info, pics and experiences of those of you whom have BTDT -facinating-thanks for sharing.

[Preacherman]

Blain, with all due respect, you need to get away from your buckshot fixation. It is NOT the answer to all of life's problems! I might use buckshot against a leopard, based on Capstick's recommendations: but the emphasis is on might - I'd much prefer a .375 or a .45-70 Guide gun stoked with Garrett Hammerheads! On a buffalo, the last round in the world I'd try to use would be buckshot. I would seriously rather have a .22LR rifle - at least I could aim for the eye! Buckshot would only annoy that creature, making it rather more likely than not that I would shortly become "the late Preacherman"...

Sure, buckshot and slugs have been used to take African heavy game - I've posted about this a time or two. However, this has usually been by accident, or for a very specific environment (e.g. digging wounded leopard out of the long grass - shudder!!!), or as an experiment. It's also usually done with some well-armed backup nearby! No African hunter with any experience will rely on a shotgun as a primary arm for hunting purposes for anything really dangerous (again, with the possible exception of digging a wounded leopard out of cover).

[Al Thompson]

re1973, you can indeed bring your own ammo. Only issue is weight when traveling (airlines). Lasy year or the year before, Erick (moderator) toook his 870 and a rifle there.

Blain, why don't you just answer the question? Hathaway wrote of ssomeone using a .22LR on an elephant. So what. What's your experiance?

[Byron Quick]

I don't have much experience with buckshot. In fact, I've never killed an animal with buck shot. I've seen deer shot with buckshot. Some were DRT and some ran away to be killed by my rifle.

But dangerous game? I saw the wild boar being gralloched that Al shot with slugs and buckshot. I believe that ONE buckshot pellet penetrated the boar's gristle plate...not enough to be a killing shot. The slugs did for it.

Blain, have you ever seen a dog after a boar got to it? If you have, then you will have a very intense interest in not letting a boar close on you. Now my buddy Rob hunts the critters with knives and spears which admittedly is wilder than using buckshot. On the other hand, I fully expect Rob to post a story one of these days entitled: "A wild boar ran off the other day while garlanded with twenty feet of my intestines or how I obtained an emergency colostomy."

Based on the experience of my own eyes, buckshot has only two possible places in my personal ammo pantheon: for use on thin skinned humans and for use on thin skinned non-dangerous game.

A good friend of mine wants to kill a Cape Buffalo with a 12 gauge using slugs. I'll probably be with him when he tries. I'll have a .450 Ackley, thank you very much. I'll also have a small box along for his remains.

[sm]

Al, Thanks.
I can understand and appreciate the weight limit. Never hunted out of the country myself. Just curious because what I've heard is differences exist and patterns/performances therefore differ. Not a fan of buckshot myself for hunting, it has other uses tho.

Just recall reading where shotguns used for fowl to fill the camp pot, and the slugs carried for insurance while wingshooting. I can see using slugs as a close in pc. I think the big is good and bigger is better theory makes the most sense with what you guys are dealing with. I just appreciate hearing from those that have BTDT and get a feel to see if what I have read is on track. Thanks.

Ok more pics and info please :)

[St. Gunner]

Buckshot being deadly lethal at less than 25yds is pure junk. I sometimes carry an 870 loaded with OOO remington buffered and have quit and switched to a 125gr sp out of an SAR1 for my up close and personal hog shooting. I had to many failures on them with good solid lung hits or should have been lung hits, they would not penetrate the shoulder. Guy I hunt with smacked a 200lb dressed weight boar right between the shoulder blades at powder burn distance in a maize field a month ago. It was a #3 20gauge load, but it was contact range, he had to step back to get the 26" barrel on the right side of the hog. The hog ran almost 30yds and had to be shot in the head to finish it. Thinking it was a fluke deal I took the 12 gauge and the Remington loads to a patch I have been shooting some hogs out of. 12yds 150lb boar hog, shot pattern centered on the shoulder, knocked him down, he stood, I fired a 2nd shot to the head, he stood up, I advance and fired a 3rd shot at about 7yds, into his hams to knock him down, then put one into his head at contact range. The only pellets to reach vitals on a boar at ranges less than 12yds where those fired at the head. A full load into the hams didn't even break the pelvis as I had planned. Poor poor performance. Now I have folded coyotes at 40yds with #4 buck many times, and it is still my favorite load for light skinned predator hunting. But I won't be using it on hogs ever again

Blain don't give me the deal about special loads and more bb's each bb is an independant projectile, even if hitting as a solid mass, they spread according to the imperfections in their surface and making contact with each other. So though they may arrive as one mass, they never continue as one mass. Even at ranges where you leave a powderburn. They rarely penetrate more than a couple inches and at ranges outside of a spitting distance they seldom do that.

Someday you'll make it to Africa, and some PH will beat you with his .460 Weatherby when you tell him you are shooting a buffalo with buckshot. :D

I told you on another board about buckshot failure at 15yds on an enraged rogue bull weighing about 1500lbs. What makes you think you can knock down a thick skinned buffalo? Never mind don't answer that, let me just tell you, you are wrong, I will debate it no further. :rolleyes:

Blain, look at the bone structure on the hog in the pic below, the leg bones alone at the hoof are at least 2" wide, you can't put your hand around the back legs of that pig and I have huge hands. Probably close to 9" in circumfrence on that hog, they are thicker up in the hams and in the shoulders. The shoulder blade on a hog that size is almost 1.5" thick, it covers all of the vitals for the most part and on top of that is a shield of scar tissue that is a couple inches thick. The ribs are close to an inch thick and they are behind the shoulder and shield. Go buy a 1/2 thick piece of leather, stick a couple inches of wet news print behind it, then back that with 3/4" plywood, then an inch of wet news print, then back that with some 1/4 plywood and then some newsprint about an inch thick. Shoot it at 15yds. You won't make it past the 3/4" plywood. Now do it with a hard jacketed standard rifle round, you'll maybe come to understand the use of bullet jackets, SD, and velocity in penetrating to the vitals.

:D

[MLC]

If buckshot were superior for killing dangerous game the perhaps it would be called lion, leopard or cape buffalo shot, but, what's in a name right?

[H&Hhunter]

What type of slug is used in Africa? Does one have to use the shotgun ammo available in region , or can our (US) type ammo be used--allowed to be brought in?

1973,

I'd use 3" Brenekes(SP?) but you'll not fing me in the thick stuff with a shotgun when I have a proper heavy rifle available.


Blain..........
You have no proof you have not introduced any facts to support your argument and the reason you won't expound on your experience level is that you have none. Plain and simple.

The statistics are out there. The fact of the matter is buck shot is more likley to get you stuffed than a good bullet. Do you read Safari magazine? I'll tell ya what go get yourself a copy The July August 2003 issue page 53 "The charge".

It's a story about a lion charge at close range 10 yards and closer infact I'll just quote the post mortem. The lion took four buckshot rounds at least one in the face and was killed by the game trackers FN.308.

Here goes.

"I was amazed to see her skinless face. There were 15 pellets out of 18 in her face. Two pellets had gone up one nostrile one had gone up the other. Three pellets had penetrated her throat,one was lodged in her right eye and three in the back of her mouth. The remaining five pellets were lodged
in her face , up against the skull. My PH explained that the shot gun could not have killed her because none of the pellets had gone into the brain"

This is a fairly common after action report on lions shot with buckshot at close range.

Now as far as the buckshot load that killed a wounded buffalo yes this has happened and it will probably happen again. And as I explained to you at the time it is about as improbable as the two Elephants that I know of that have been killed with a .22LR.

For those of you who are wondering: if you shoot an elephant in the major vessle just aft of a front leg when the leg is forward in step and pierce that vessel it will infact kill the elephant by causing him to bleed out. And it's been proven several times. This does not however make the .22LR an elephant gun of choice nor does a random buckshot downing of nyati make it a good choice.

I also just read that if you cut the major vessel just behind an elephants ear it will bleed out in approximatley ten minutes. As was proven by an old Zimbabwaen pro who spined an elephant with his last bullet and paralized it leaving him only a knife to finish the job. I seriously doubt that I'll be out hunting tembo with my cold steel anytime in the near future.

In closing you should really stop quoting Capstick he is an unreliable source at best. I've spoken to several old time pro's who've actually hunted with Peter and they all seem to be in agreement that his stories and experience are...well lets just say puffed up a bit.

Good luck with your shotgun and I hope that you actually get to shoot something with it someday.;)

[sm]

H&H , thanks.
I agree with why use a shotgun when you have a better tool.

Ok, do you shoot any winged critters to fill the camp pot or to add to the hunt experience?

Umm, looks like I'm going to have to check out that magazine...that's a good thing ;)

Someday I gotta go try this...a dream I've always had to see the country smell the smells and see the sights.

[H&Hhunter]

RE1973,

I never go to Africa without my stainless synthetic ruger over & under 12 ga. I love to shoot guinea fowl and swyansons frankolin and Southern Africa offers some great dove shooting as well.

Last september in the Kilombero swamps I had a fantastic time shooting Egyptian Geese and ducks of all sorts. Next week I'm leaving for the Limpopo river district of the R.S.A. for a bow hunt on Kudu and Warthog you can bet that the scatter gun is coming along.

[Dr.Rob]

Back on topic, I've never heard anyone recommend the shotgun for dangerous game, EXCEPT for a wounded leopard.

There was another famous story I read by Patterson (of Tsavo Fame) where he was charged by a lion and was carrying a double shotgun, one barrel charged with shot, the other with a steel ball. He hit the lion with the steel and it went right through the lion's jaw and neck and never even slowed down. Luckily a gun bearer in his party ran, diverting the lion's attention and another rifle-equipped hunter in patterson's party took the lion down.

I've seen buckshot totally exit (through and through) a deer. Deer just aren't built as tough as other critters.

[cooch]

There's a classic yarn about Samual White Baker using shotgun slugs on Asiatic Buffalo.

Supposedly while hunting with shotgun (in Ceylon?) he came across a large water-buff. As it was his usual practice to keep a few slugs in his knapsack, he duly loaded up and shot the buff "where the neck joins the shoulder". It seems that the animal was not impressed, but - luckily for Baker - advanced slowly instead of charging. Baker shot it once or twice more with no better result and then realised he was out of slugs.

According to legend, the only alternative he could find to load with was a handful of loose change. He whacked this down the barrel on top of a double charge of powder and waited untill the buff, which had been getting closer despite Baker's retreat, finally decided to charge in ernest. At the range of just a few feet, the charge was enough to stun the buff.

Whoever wrote up the yarn put it very well IMHO.... "Not even a charging bull buffalo could withstand Victoria Regina's profile at close range!"

[H&Hhunter]

Whoever wrote up the yarn put it very well IMHO.... "Not even a charging bull buffalo could withstand Victoria Regina's profile at close range!"

Well one would have to wonder did the charge hit the bull with heads or tails?

Wasn't that the story where our hairy chested hero claims that the ball passed through the buffalo and then skipped across the water for nearly a mile? If it is I think I remember reading it at some time in the foggy past.

[Blain]

Failure of buckshot more often than not has to do with pattern density, or lack there of. The problem is that most fools don't bother to pattern tes their guns! This would be like taking a rifle into the field witout zeroing it! Though as foolish as it sounds, people do do it. You need to know the maximum effective range of your load and gun. Remember, shot placement is the #1 factor.

There have been some buckshot failures. Heck, all rifle calibers have, do, and can fail in any situation. There is no magick bullet.

I still say that magnum buckshot is the king of close range.

[Andrew Wyatt]

placement placement placement and penetration penetration prentration are the two things that make a weapon effective on tough game like buffalo and lion.


buckshot is impossible to place precisely, and lacks the penetration slug has.

[cooch]

H&H....

I seem to recall that comment too.

No doubt that Baker was hairy chested, or hair-brained ,,,, or something.
Anyone who shoots a two-bore and stick wild boar and sambar (sambhur) stags with a knife for fun surely qualifies.

However IIRC, the skipping shot was from a four-bore and the waterbuff did not drop on th spot. Tough animals!

Cooch

[Art Eatman]

Just doing some armchair thinking, it seems to me that to say that buckshot is the king of close range ignores the issues of kinetic energy, momentum, and penetration.

For whatever reason, I have this picture of somebody being happy with a nine-barrelled .32ACP or .380 "rifle", nicely registered as to point of impact.

Sorry...Couldn't help myself.

Art

[Tamara]

Failure of buckshot more often than not has to do with pattern density, or lack there of.

Still curious to hear what experience you're basing this on....

[Al Thompson]

Hey Art, it's worse than a .32 or .380 rifle - low SD per pellet.

[Byron Quick]

Blain,

List the animals you have personally killed with buckshot.

[St. Gunner]

Blain Pm'd me Mr. Quick and Tamara, he wants to know if paper counts as an animal since it once was alive? :D

Tamara, he said he needs nothing but a patterning board, or at least that used to be his arguement. I outlined a simple test for him on this on different boards, he never posts results. Oh well...His funeral someday...

[Art Eatman]

Aw, Al, I wuz on my first cuppa cawfee. 'Bout the best I could do under adverse conditions.

Just trying to be helpful to the optimistic.

:), Art

[Dr.Rob]

Seriously I'm curious as to what PH would recommend buckshot for lion or buffalo?

I'd get a new PH.

[Preacherman]

Rob, if your PH tried to use buckshot on a lion or buffalo, you'd need a new PH anyway... :what: :uhoh: :scrutiny:

[sm]

I'm a big proponent of pattern boards, as you all know, but I do know PB only tell part of the story. I've shot bldg material and vehicles. I have hunted and though not Big Dangerous Game like H&H , Preacher, and many of you, another couple factors weigh in. One is the critter is in HIS survival mode, and critters don't read books telling them that when shot with XYZ they are supposed to quit and die.

I had my eyes opened a bit wider on rabid dogs, I knew what the pattern was with that SG, that load, of 00 buck and ranges. That 110 pound thin skinned part doberman did not stop and he wanted me for lunch. I hit him twice at the shoulder and he put his head down raised up and came full bore at me. I had shucked the action (dropped the 3 rd 00 buck) on the ground speed loaded 2 slugs fast and told the farmer with the model 29 " if this don't work shoot, and try not to hit me". I hit with the slug and the game was over. My shots were well placed , the load patterned great, its just that mean old part doberman had a fight syndrome and wanted my skinny hide for lunch.

Nope 00 has a place, but I want big and heavy on something like you guys go after, I like shotguns...but reality is a whole bunch different than what is printed on pages with glossy photos. I'd be getting my rusty rifle skills back in order for sure.

[Glamdring]

Where di you hit the Dob with the Buck? Where did the slug hit?

[sm]

Fired twice,using 00 buck ( 9 pellets), IIRC 10 -12 pellets left shoulder area total. I was 12-18 steps ( yards)and I was going for high shoulder, and no, some pellets did not exit.

I kept moving right and he was moving to match ,slow waltz I knew would explode, so he was slightly quartered in relation to me. He kept wanting to be straight on -I wanted a bigger target than just a head. I hit the neck left side solid at 12 steps about the time he was about to explode...slow run and I shot at 15 yds. DRT. Being Rabid I didn't get real crazy about exam...but saw enough. We just used a rope an dragged to a brushfire.

Why the distance...humm having done the Tueller drill...I knew just how short the distance was. I also knew , despite all the thousands of rds downrange I'd shot...one can miss with a shotgun "and all them pellets".

[Blain]

The point is that with the right load and pattern, buckshot is very lethal.

[Gordon]

I have NOT had good luck with instant stops on dogs over 20' away with any buck shot. Probably dusted 20 or more with more than 3 or 4 pellets of 3,4,0.00, or triple 0 at ranges up to 40 yds. Death was NOT instantaneous! In the 70's as a Ranch foreman I soon switched to a .25-35 Model 94 instead of a 12gauge with buck from a jeep. I guess the PH suggestion of buckshot on Leopards is more because they close in on you on a spring from 20' or less at night. You get the famous 'rat hole' from less than 20 feet with buck shot which SHOULD be pretty quick on THIN SKINNED quarry(it has for me). A shotgun slug on the other hand is a massive killer on everything I've ever hit with one up to 75yds!;)

[Al Thompson]

Blain, the point is that you have to talk through your hat. We are all willing to listen to your experiences, but, you seem to have none. :(

[JShirley]

My first buck was downed with buckshot...fired from the hip. I also passed on taking shots at three nice bucks, all in a row, because they were out of reasonable BS range.

Raised in AL in a family of primarily small game hunters, I essentially grew up with a shotgun in my hand. I still favor them at close range against unarmored foes. Large, tough game and buckshot do not mix.

I do intend to take a buff with a 12 gauge one day, but it will be loaded with a good Brenneke slug. Some fairly knowledgeable types do not recommend this. My funeral.

John

[cooch]

I'll probably get booted off the list for this..... ;)
(Art,,, what's the penalty for encouraging Blain?? :rolleyes: )

But it just so happens that I had to put down a 2yo hereford this eveing, and the nearest tool for the job was a 12g full of BBs.

Worked like a charm......

But the advocates of bucksh will have to remember that the range was about 12' and the shot hit at right-angles to the skull in a compact mass.
Also, an immature domestic female animal does not equate with a mature Buff...... they are a lot less skeletally massive.
And again.... it was confined in a yard, I had extra rounds,, and I could go fetch a decent rifle if the shotgun didn't do the job. The only risk I took was that it might have a headache for a couple of minutes.

Not like shooting at dangerous game.

Cheers......... Peter

[Keith]

At REALLY close range, I'm sure buckshot is a fine stopper on animals that aren't too awfully big. I don't have any experience in the area, but if asked to help track down a wounded leopard or something in thick brush, I wouldn't feel undergunned with a shotgun and some 00 buck.

But hell, 00 buck is what .30 or .33 caliber? And it's a round ball that can't weigh much more than 100 grains - how much penetration and ability to break down bones can a projectile like that have once it spreads out? Once you get out past 15 yards or so, that shot load is akin to a bunch of .32 auto hardball rounds! It would be like emptying a magazine load of .32's into a big critter - no matter how tight a group you get, it just isn't enough because those individual rounds aren't going to shatter big bones or even penetrate very far in a large animal.

No thanks!

Keith

[Blain]

no matter how tight a group you get,


This is just false. I suppose that a itty bitty tinny 2 grain pellet from #7 shot is harmless no matter how tight their groups are. I suppose that means I can safetly shoot a load of #7 at 10 yards. Care to test this theory out? :D

[H&Hhunter]

I suppose that means I can safetly shoot a load of #7 at 10 yards. Care to test this theory out?

No Blain nobody wants to test your sophmoric theory out. And the quote you took is incomplete. Keith said on large animals.

Please post some of your hunting pictures I'd also love to see them.

My first center fire rifle was a .270. I was so proud that of it that I repeatedly told all off my friends about what a death stick it was. Of course I'd never shot anything with it but boy o boy I sure had read O'Conner.

Am I wrong to assume that your amorous infatuation with your 12 guage is a non tried non proven relationship of the same kind!?!

Please stop this gun store hunting magazine commando stuff.

[Keith]

I didn't say shot was harmless, I said that since individual shot carried less weight, it has less penetration than a larger solid projectile. This is just simple physics.

If you took your #7 shot and melted it into a ball and fired that into wet newspaper at 15 yards, how far do you think it would penetrate? How far would a standard charge of #7 shot penetrate at that range?

I'll grant you that at very close range, the shot charge would likely do even more damage than a slug. But that damage would still be relatively shallow - maybe just fine for a big cat, not so good on a buffalo or other really large animal.

I'm not sure what the weight of a 00 buck round is? Anybody know? I'm guessing somewhere south of 100 grains. In effect, its a .32 round - or a group of nine .32 rounds per shell.
If I was wandering around upper Zimbabwe and suddenly found a buffalo pawing the ground and ready to charge me from twenty yards, I don't think pulling my .32 auto and shooting him nine times would be especially helpful. Those light rounds aren't going to penetrate enough to do the damage required to break that critter down.

I'd want something that would go right through that critter and break bones from stem to stern. A shotgun slug would certainly penetrate deep enough to break shoulders or spine. A fusillade of .32's (a 00 buck load) wouldn't.

Keith