[jsalcedo]

For several years, Levi Strauss & Co. has focused on empowering
youth to make social change on issues they care about, therefore we
do still support PAX. A leading concern among youth is the increase
in gun violence, which is responsible for killing more American
children than all natural causes combined (11 children every day).

We hope to take a leadership position on this issue by supporting
PAX, a non-profit anti-violence organization, dedicated to the vision
of a society free of gun violence. Levi Strauss & Co. supports
PAX's goal to bring all Americans together to support common sense
solutions to the gun violence epidemic.

If you'd like more information about the PAX organization, please
visit their web site at www.paxusa.org.

Thank you again for sharing your views with us. If you need to
contact us again, please write back or call us at 1-800-USA-LEVI or
email us at questions@levi.com for further information. We are
available to assist you Monday through Friday from 5am - 8pm
Pacific Time, and on Saturday and Sunday from 7am - 5pm Pacific
Time.

Sincerely,

Vallory
Levi Strauss & Co.
valwax2614369

[Sisco]

Donations to PAX and dropping their support for the Boy Scouts are the reasons I haven't bought Levis for several years now.
Wranglers are just as good and cost a lot less.

[Standing Wolf]

I don't do business with anti-Second Amendment bigots.

[matis]

EXACTLY! what Sisco said!

I am perfectly happy with my Wranglers -- about the only pants I wear.



Matis

[Mike Irwin]

I hope that Land's End is OK. I REALLY like their jeans and other clothing...

[Ian]

Levi's still gives money to PAX
So, pax...do you have anything to say about this? :neener:

[cuchulainn]

A leading concern among youth is the increase in gun violence, which is responsible for killing more American children than all natural causes combined (11 children every day).

Wow! Three lies in one sentence.

1) "Increase" -- Gun violence has been declining for nearly a decade -- not just dipping down, but spiking down.

2) "11 Children" -- Even defining "children" as 19-year-old adults, that isn't true any longer. In year 2000 (latest year available), there were 3,082 gun deaths, which is 8.3 "children."
**Nearly half of the 8.3 "children" were 18- or 19-year-old adults(1,498).
**More than three-quarters were older teens 16 to 19 (2,370).
**Less than 8% were children 0-12 (220).
Source: http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate.html

3) "all natural causes combined" -- The DOOSIE. Looking at just the top-10 natural causes of death for "children" 0-19, Year 2000:

Congenital Anomalies : 6,862 <-- Alone more than 2X gun deaths (3,082).
Short Gestation : 4,397
SIDS : 2,253
Malignant Neoplasms : 2,179
Maternal Pregnancy Complications: 1,404
Placenta Cord Membranes : 1,062
Respiratory Distress : 999
Heart Disease : 855
Bacterial Sepsis : 768
Circulatory System Disease : 663
Source: http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus.html

[MacPelto]

Let me say again...WRANGLER. Model 13MWZGK, to be exact. :)

[DigMe]

I just go to Marhall's or Ross and buy whatever good-looking jeans they have for the cheapest price. Don't care for Levi's that much anyway.

brad cook

[Giant]

No Levi anything for Giant, thank you very much!

Giant

[Dave P]

A leading concern among youth is the increase
in gun violence, which is responsible for killing more American
children than all natural causes combined


Uh, why are they comparing to NATURAL causes???

Motor vehicle deaths and even drownings are much higher than any deaths by idiots with firearms.

[OF]

Bummer. I guess I'll have to try Wranglers... :P

- Gabe

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'll second the Wranglers... not only does Levi's support PAX, they are happy to tell you that they would rather support PAX than have yor business. They are about as actively hostile to gunowners as any company I've seen.

I'll add one other thing too... the Wranglers are both much cheaper and have held up much better than the Levi's as well. If Levi stopped donating to PAX tomorrow, I'd still stay with Wrangler because they flat out make a better product.

[Aahzz]

Wranglers for me, oh yeah!

[2dogs]

Wrangler- American made.

Lee- American made.

Carhartt- American made.

Levi's- not.

And my butt doesn't fit in them any more. :what: And they cost way too much- so I don't buy them.

[Mikul]

Does anyone know who makes Costco's (Kirkland) jeans? They look suspisciously like Levis, but I can't say for sure, especially since they also sell Levis.

[Sisco]

Wonder what Mr. Levi Strauss would think? He was an outdoorsman & hunter.
Probably spinning in the grave like Walt Disney if he can see what they've done with his legacy.

[Navy joe]

Levi's still gives money to PAX...And I still give money to Wrangler. It's been two years since this started on TFL and apparently they haven't changed their ways. That coupled with the fact that they are made offshore and I'll never buy them again.

[robear]

Same here Navy joe... I haven't bought anything Levi's since I heard about their position back on TFL...

Mike Irwin, I'm not sure about Land End's position either, but I also like their jeans a lot.. Same for L.L. Bean...

R

[Orthonym]

I have been really annoyed (to put it mildly) with Levi's since I first heard about their attitude a few years ago. I've worn the same size jeans since I was 17 or so, sometime in the previous century.(smirk) Levi's fit me perfectly, so all I had to do was walk into the store, find my size, go pay for them and get out! No trying them on, no (ugh) SHOPPING! The anti-gun thing was pretty bad, but the Homo-Scoutmaster business was ABSURD!
I did find a pair of Wranglers in a Wal-Mart which don't fit _too_ badly. Oh, I am an Eagle Scout. (troop 388, Coral Gables, FL):)

[Russ]

Generally, LEE's are better quality than Wranglers and unless you're still 12 years old they fit better.

[CZ 75 BD]

the fact that Levi's beat up the Boy Scouts was enough for me. Haven't worn Levi's or Dockers or any thing identified with the brand. I encourage all thinking Americans to abstain as well.

[Skunkabilly]

:banghead:

Oh well, I'm happy with my Royal Robbins. They market their clothing as magpouches and even have the word 'tactical' in their clothing. A win-win :neener:

[westex]

Mike, I'm with you on the Lands End jeans. Their large opening and deep pockets come in real handy if you happen to own any Kel Tec equipment.

[DigMe]

I had the worst luck with consecutive pairs of defective Land's End jeans. That did it for me.

brad cook

[gunsmith]

My 17 nieces & nephews will get other jeans & tell their friends...

[pax]

Ian,

:neener: backatcha.

I wish they would stop giving money to PAX and give it to pax instead, of course.

pax

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more. -- Bill Hoest

[Jeff]

I can't stand Levi's jeans anyways. They are the most overpriced garments I can imagine. They rip out so easily, where cheaper brands hold together.

I have to admit I've had good luck with their khakis, but after reading about this, they won't ever get another dime from me.

[DigMe]

Actually I firmly believe that no jeans are shoddier than Old Navy jeans. Don't know if they are communist biggots or not though. :)

brad cook

Edit: That goes for all Old Navy clothes in general. I quit buying there because close to everything I ever bought there fell apart.

[jsalcedo]

Hey guys, send the Email stating your displeasure to the address on the first post.

You will get a canned letter about the blah violence, blah youth
blah pinko but it also said they foward it to the higher ups.

Maybe we can make enough noise to get something done.

That would be 1 meeeeleon dollars out of gun controls pocket each year.

[Safety First]

Question: Are Dockers part of the levi family?

[jsalcedo]

Yep they are.

[OF]

I just sent Levi's an email telling them where they could go stuff their jeans and got exactly the same canned reponse from the top of the thread.

:barf:

- Gabe

[Combat-wombat]

:barf:

[Mr. James]

:fire: :barf:

My wife just bought me a pair for fathers' day.

Gonna burn 'em and buy some Wranglers.

Any brand that sponsored Dale Earnhardt, Sr. is alright by me. :)

Darn, I hate outright wasting money.

[jsalcedo]

exchange is the way to go Mr. James

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Better yet, exchange them and send the credited receipt to Levi's explaining why they lost money.

[Carnitas]

I switched over to carhartts during the previous run around with this a few years ago. Been a very happ camper. Better Cut. Better Quality. The new Tool Pants are perfffffect for lefty CCW with a mag pouch on the right leg and a big cargo pocket on the left. The only levis left in my closet are on short final for the next time the house needs painting.

[bogie]

Here's the latest round of correspondence...

====

Okay. This is interesting - You've changed your form letter to read "10 children" instead of "11 children." A step in the right direction...

Now, how about changing it to read "10 people under the age of 25, the vast majority of whom were involved in criminal activity, many with extensive established criminal records" and leave it at that? Because that's the _real_ story behind the numbers.

Again, many folks are VERY insulted that we, as legitimate firearms owners, have been lumped in with gangsters and other criminals in this attempt at solving the nonexistant problem of "gun violence."

I'm sure y'all feel good about this, but you're underinformed, and it'll end up costing. I like Levis jeans. My significant other likes Levis jeans. They hold up well in our active lifestyle - hunting, fishing, hiking, etc.. But we're not going to be able to buy them as long as the company keeps supporting folks who insist upon insulting us.

If Matthew Shepard had had a handgun, he might be alive today. Instead of crucified by gay-bashing rednecks.

A handgun allows the owner to say "No, please go away and do not attack me" and have it stick. It lets a 120 pound woman tell a 240 pound man that she'd really rather not be raped. It lets older or disabled people, who don't have the physical luxury of dedicating their lives to "unarmed self defense" live in safety.

Why do you insist upon rendering others defenseless?

-------Original Message-------
From: Questions@levi.com
Sent: 06/26/03 04:26 PM
To: bogieppc@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Just heard about this.

>
> Hi:

Thank you for taking the time to contact us. Consumer feedback is
very important to us and we appreciate you taking the time to express
your opinions on this issue.

For several years, Levi Strauss & Co. has focused on empowering
youth to make social change on issues they care about. A leading
concern among youth is the increase in gun violence, which is
responsible for killing more American children than all natural causes
combined (10 children every day).

We hope to take a leadership position on this issue by supporting
PAX, a non-profit anti-violence organization, dedicated to the vision
of a society free of gun violence. Levi Strauss & Co. supports
PAX's goal to bring all Americans together to support common sense
solutions to the gun violence epidemic.

If you'd like more information about the PAX organization, please
visit their web site at www.paxusa.org.

Thank you again for sharing your views with us. We respect your
individual opinion, your comments will be communicated to the
appropriate management personnel for their review and information.

Sincerely,

Elisabeth
Levi Strauss & Co.
eliher2616764

--------------------< you wrote >--------------------
From Name: bogie
From Address: SMTP:bogieppc@mindspring.com

I'm disturbed by your positon on this - The organization you donate to
tends to take cheap shots at non-criminal firearms owners, while at
the same time exaggerating its statistics in search of more and more
donations.

I am not a felon - every time I purchase a firearm, my name, social
security number, etc., is called in to the FBI to ascertain that. I have
also never been convicted (or charged with, for that matter) of a
misdemeanor crime of domestic violence, or had a restraining order
placed on me. How many of your workers, or your management,
would pass this test?

1. Firearms violence has been dropping for the past 10 years, while
firearms ownership has increased. Most firearms are owned by good
people, who are highly insulted when folks lump them in with
gangsters. The only "gun violence epidemic" is in the minds of people
who raise funds to fight it.

2. The only way that the PAX organization gets its figure of 11
"children" a day is if it counts criminals who are shot, either by other
criminals, by police, or by people defending themselves. And if they
define "children" as including folks up into their twenties. Don't
believe me - do your own research. I recommend the electronic
publications at www.fbi.gov for beginning. Look at how many rapes,
assaults, etc., are visited upon women by assailants who are armed
only with "fists and feet." These women, had they been armed, would
have had the ability to say "no," and make it stick.

In seeking to disarm my girlfriend and myself, you are essentially
seeking to render us defenseless against criminals. I ask, why do you
wish harm upon us?

Other reading suggestions:

www.a-human-right.com
www.pinkpistols.com

Until you revise your policy in this matter, I'll be buying my jeans and
accessories from other manufacturers. And I buy a LOT of clothes.

====
For several years, Levi Strauss & Co. has focused on empowering
youth to make social change on issues they care about, therefore we
do still support PAX. A leading concern among youth is the increase
in gun violence, which is responsible for killing more American
children than all natural causes combined (11 children every day).

We hope to take a leadership position on this issue by supporting
PAX, a non-profit anti-violence organization, dedicated to the vision
of a society free of gun violence. Levi Strauss & Co. supports
PAX's goal to bring all Americans together to support common sense
solutions to the gun violence epidemic.

If you'd like more information about the PAX organization, please
visit their web site at www.paxusa.org.

Thank you again for sharing your views with us. If you need to
contact us again, please write back or call us at 1-800-USA-LEVI or
email us at questions@levi.com for further information. We are
available to assist you Monday through Friday from 5am - 8pm
Pacific Time, and on Saturday and Sunday from 7am - 5pm Pacific
Time.

Sincerely,

Vallory
Levi Strauss & Co.
>

[CZ-75]

And I still give my money to other clothing companies.



I hope that Land's End is OK.

= Sears and Roebuck

[jsalcedo]

Great letter bogie, mind if I use it for other anti-gun companies?

[Dan from MI]

Let's all remember that DOCKERS is also LEVI'S.

I don't buy either of them.

[bogie]

Best thing to do when writing a letter to a "non-gun" business is to be concise and factual, and to make it your OWN letter. Don't use a canned letter.

Also, it helps to appeal to emotions (grin), and avoid the sterotype of the white male redneck gun owner. I've been know to "fudge" things a little, hence the reference to Matthew Shepard - Levis definitely doesn't want to be accused of supporting gay bashing.

Hit a minimal number of points. Don't argue about the 2nd amendment, rights, privileges, the United Nations, etc... Instead, let them know that you're insulted by their actions, and that you can't understand why they are taking this attitude toward the kind of folks who you'd think they'd want in their business. After all, I'm sure that they'd prefer to have _all_ their customers be law abiding citizens, right?

Here's the first I sent to Applebee's...

====

Until you change your policy regarding legally armed customers, I will not
be patronizing Applebees restaurants. You _do_ realize, of course, that
hundreds of thousands (millions nationwide) of your potential customers who
have gone to the trouble of obtaining a concealed carry license are NOT
criminals, right? Or are you just assuming that we're gangsters? Do Lloyd Hill
or David Goebel know that you're treating a VERY large block of your
customers like this?

And since I'm your stereotypical bachelor from hell, I eat out a LOT.


===

That was it. Short, to the point, and letting them know that I'm HIGHLY insulted.

Now, here's one I sent to the waffle house folks... no reply, as of yet.

====

I'm disappointed, and frankly insulted.

I'm on a low carb diet, and like to eat at Waffle House restaurants - hey,
I like your omelets. They're perfect.

But since your company has adopted a stance of not allowing people who
_legally_ carry concealed firearms on the premises, I'm no longer going to be
able to patronize your restaurants. I don't know if someone in your
corporate headquarters has equated ownership of firearms with gangsters or
something, but they need to realize that concealed carry permit holders are, by
definition, some of the most law-abiding folks in the country. We are NOT
criminals (in fact, how many of your general population of customers, or
employees for that matter, have had background checks performed on them to
ensure that they have no criminal records?), and when we're equated with such,
it is very insulting. Please keep in mind that the criminal element won't
pay any attention to your policies - it's only the permit holders whose
business you will lose.

In the past (often while travelling to practice - your Wentzville, MO
store was a favorite place to stop prior to visiting the St. Louis Benchrest
Rifle Club in Wright City - or to matches) I've often eaten there, since the
quality is consistent around the country, and I'll miss it.

Should you revise your policy, I'll resume my patronage. Thank you very
much.


====

[bogie]

Also, and this is VERY important...

DO NOT TELL THEM THAT THEY HAVE LOST YOUR BUSINESS FOREVER.

Then they have no reason to change.

Give 'em an out. "Change your policy, and I'll buy your product again."

[willyjixx]

ill be damned i have a closet full of levis an have been wearing them an buying them since highschool.

now i wonder what they would think if they knew their fine product was guilty of allowing me to carry concealed in the general public?

levis belt holds up my levis jean which is coupled to my bianchi.