Traffic stop/you're CCW-legal & cop wants your gun ....


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labgrade
January 8, 2003, 03:43 AM
Tried it several times at TFL & never got an answer that satisfied. Been "a cop" myself & still wondering the tactical reasoning behind what usually follows:

I'm driving. I'm pulled over for a basic traffic stop. I'm required by CCW-issuance to inform LEO I have same & am carrying.

I carry a BHP, strong-side, cocked & locked.

Upon contact (at my driver-side window), before LEO asks (I DO volunteer & hand over, ALL info well-before LEO can even ask), LEO (by then) goes through all the motions.

First & foremost (from most encounters - one was refreshingly non-interested) is the LEO wants The Gun.

The LEO, at the time, doesn't have me at gun-point, I am not "in the position," nor am I under any sort of control. The LEO is at a huge tactical disadvantage = while I draw to "hand-to-cop," if inclined, why not just shoot 'im?

As an aside, I've found that many have no clue whatsoever how to "decock" a BHP - a single action/saftey only semi-auto.

The Question.

The LEO's asking for a very favorable situation for me to present the weapon for him to disarm - always stated as a "safety reason."

#1 - first & foremost in my mind is my own safety (duh - I was already safe before The Stop)

#2 - I could just shoot him/her. I have the tactical advantage. No question.

#3 - likley, the LEO is untrained in the safeting of my firearm & could possibly cause an AD/ND - not a good thing for any involved.

#4 - what reason could you, as an LEO, want to disarm me, a legally CCWing-type want to (bluntly) even want take away my gun?

Sorry, best I can do at the time for a valid question, but basically, if I can hand it to "you," if I was a bad guy, why wouldn't I just shoot you?

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MitchSchaft
January 8, 2003, 03:46 AM
I talked to a friend who is a LEO in Oklahoma. He said he takes peoples guns, even though they are legal, only for his safety. He doesn't run the serial number either. That's just him, though. I guess there are all types of reasons.
The funny part is, if the person's intention was to do him harm, they would not have told him about the gun... :scrutiny:

labgrade
January 8, 2003, 03:49 AM
Well, MitchSchaft, that's really The Question, no?

If I'm gonna hand it to him, & I was a bad guy, why wouldn't I just shoot him?

And, if I was a good guy, I wouldn't shoot him anyway. & if so, there's no point in it at all - is there?

MitchSchaft
January 8, 2003, 03:54 AM
You are correct, there is no point. I thought that was implied with my statement :neener:

labgrade
January 8, 2003, 03:58 AM
Nope. Caught your implication.

Just curious from others not "so inclined" towards reason.

Seriously.

Any takers from the more LEO-point of view?

ezoeni
January 8, 2003, 04:09 AM
I hate it when a cop takes your gun away at a trafic stop. It just makes me feel...............well not good :scrutiny:

Not only that why dont they ever ask if you have more than one?

How stupid is that?

Okiecruffler
January 8, 2003, 05:25 AM
I've only had one officer ask for my gun during a traffic stop. I politely told him where I was carrying and offered to place my hands on my hood while he removed it, but I would not hold a weapon in the presence of a law officer. It was a busy street and I was afraid some passer by would misconstrue the situation and run me over. The officer declined and we moved on to better things like discussing why I had no brake lights.

AK103K
January 8, 2003, 06:00 AM
I dont even offer that I have it. I dont think its required here in PA, and even if it was I wouldnt say anything unless they asked. From some of the gun handling I've seen from some of the cops around here, I'm safer with them NOT having it. I had a friend who was stopped for DUI and had a loaded High Power on. The cop took it and then handed it back and asked him to unload it as he didnt know how! Would you hand someone you thought was drunk enough to not allow drive, a cocked and locked handgun? I dont think its any of their business if I have a gun. They have one. Whats the problem. Most cops are control freaks, I think thats the only real issue, because they can.

dave
January 8, 2003, 06:19 AM
I, being an officer, can think of no reason I would disarm someone with a legal CCW during the course of a traffic stop. As someone has already mentioned, if the weapon is in the holster we're both safe. Having it removed, by me or the owner, seems to open a can of worms that didn't have to be opened.

If someone has a valid CCW, I'm not going to be to concerned whether the weapon is stolen or not. I think it would be a rare event for a legal CCW holder to be carrying a stolen weapon. Not impossible, just rare.

We've all read, on another thread, what can happen if a concerned (stupid, but concerned) citizen sees something they don't understand and calls 911. Better for it to not be an issue.


In all honesty, I'm not concerned about the "good" guys that carry guns. Why shouldn't they, all the bad guys already do.

Check to see if CCW is valid, finish our busniess, and we're both on our way. Why make life harder?

JPM70535
January 8, 2003, 06:24 AM
Never asked a violator if he was carrying. I just watched his hands all the time. If I felt hinkey about the situation, I did a pat down othewise just went about the business at hand.

I had a handfull of violators volunteer their carry status. I never asked for their weapon. Always felt as though if they wanted to shoot me they would have done so before telling me.

Had several discussions reference handguns. Always tried to leave the violator with something besides the ticket.

jato
January 8, 2003, 06:49 AM
If I felt the need to disarm a person (which certain situations MAY require), I would do it myself from a position of advantage - probably patdown or gun point depending on situation.


#4 - what reason could you, as an LEO, want to disarm me, a legally CCWing-type want to (bluntly) even want take away my gun?

Because...someone has reported you as a suspect in a crime! Otherwise please keep your gun in your holster and I'll do the same.:D

iamhistory
January 8, 2003, 09:12 AM
I am with AK103K...............I never volunteer the fact that I am carrying. I have never had an officer ask me if I was carrying. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure if the state requires a permit holder to volunteer that info. That may be irresponsible on my part, but I'll have to look into that. I actually have some family who are LEO, so I'll have to ask them what they do/think about it.

If asked, I would most definitely inform the officer that I was carrying and what/where the weapon was and also present my permit. But until then, if the officer does not consider me threatening enough to be concerned that I have a weapon I might use on him, then I don't get into that situation with him.

It's strange though. I guess I have a look that causes nearly every officer who has ever stopped me (not that many though) to walk up to my vehicle with his hand on or near his sidearm and peering cautiously in the car and at me (seemingly moreso than usual). Then once we talk, they relax a bit. If they feel the need to approach my vehicle prepared enough to get the jump on me, why not ask me about weapons?

El Tejon
January 8, 2003, 09:27 AM
Only if he pays me in cash first!:D Otherwise, he's going down for Criminal Conversion.

HS/LD
January 8, 2003, 09:28 AM
Colorado does not require that you inform an LEO that you are carrying.

So I would never say anything.

Then the only time he/she is going to know about the gun is if you were being arrested ie; removed from the vehicle and patted down.

HS/LD

PCRCCW
January 8, 2003, 09:37 AM
In UT, you have to disclose you are a CCW permit holder and relay: what and where you are carrying....If you dont tell them and they run your license...It pulls the CCW on the LEO's computer info..they may wonder why you didnt tell them about the gun you are carrying...NOT GOOD!
Ive always told them and never had to draw my gun until the last time.....love it. The officer wanted me to remove my gun, weak handed w/ two fingers....I grinned and said...."It cant happen!" "If I can draw my gun with 2 fingers...Ill quit making holsters" I slowly removed my gun..and he damn near field strips it...lays the whole assembly on the hood of my Dodge....everyone who drove by was looking....GOD! Anyway...he pulled me over for expired tags...had my temp reg. and all was well. He would have probably let me go anyway...I had my CZ PCR Custom with me. Its kinda cool and was an attention getter. He also wanted to see my rig and asked for a business card..."Its a good thing you cant draw your gun with only 2 fingers" ......why did he ask?

Shoot well

2nd Amendment
January 8, 2003, 09:39 AM
Indiana doesn't require that you inform either but I have had a couple cops ask. What made me curious is, what prompted them to ask and why would they care?

El Tejon
January 8, 2003, 09:49 AM
2A, it kicks up on the `puter. Of course, this depends on the system the po-po are using and, of course, the accuracy of state po-po records.

AmericanFreeBird
January 8, 2003, 10:14 AM
I'm assuming that just saying "No officer, you may not have my gun." is out of the question?

David Roberson
January 8, 2003, 10:57 AM
Here in NC we're required to tell an LEO who stops us if we're carrying, and the LEO can take your weapon for the duration of the interaction.

I got stopped late one night driving home from the airport (and wasn't carrying because I'd been on a flight) and when the LEO ran my license he asked if I was carrying a gun -- my CC permit showed up on the computer. I said I wasn't, he told me not to drive so fast late at night, and that was the end of it.

PATH
January 8, 2003, 11:29 AM
If I am stopped here is my procedure.

1) Pull over and put hazards on
2) Roll down drivers side window
3) Interior lights go on
4) Take keys from ignition and put them on dash
5) Put both hands palms up on top of steering wheel
6) Speak to officer in a polite and pleasant tone regardless
of his tone or attitude.
7) Keep license, registration, and insurance card in shirt pocket.
Tell officer where they are and ask for permission to take them
out.
8) Inform officer that I have a CCW and that I have a firearm on
my person. I would describe what and where of carry. CCW is
kept with license, registration, and insurance card.
9) If officer wants to search my car I would politely refuse.

Well there you have it. That is how I would handle a car stop. Some will agree that what I do is a good thing and others will not.
The officer wants to go home alive and so do I. LEO's are the good guys and so I will cooperate up to the point where they ask to search my car.


As for taking my firearm.....the officer will have to take it from my holster. I don't feel comfortable handing it to the officer. I would explain the nuances of the firearm so that he doesn't shoot himself or me!

Topgun
January 8, 2003, 11:34 AM
Police are like anyone else. They love humor. I always smile when stopped (like for running red lights or driving wrong way or doing wheelies at intersections) and say, "Hi, officer.....I've got a SECRET."

Now if this doesn't have the cop in stitches, I go to: "Hey wouldja believe I got a GUN?" That is a real knee-slapper. Usually defuses any suspicion and puts cop in good mood.

You can always try a FAST DRAW and surprise the officer. Oh golly, they will usually just fall down (probably to guffaw) They usually get right back up to show you THEIR gun. Then you can discuss guns and go have coffee.

Then there is the STARE. This seldom works unless the officer is a fan of the late Marty Allen (EYE-gor in Young Frankenstein)
It's worth a try if you have multiple traffic stops as the odds will eventually favor you.

The secret is LOTS of hand movement. Sorta like a magic show. It will impress even the most jaded LEO. It is so popular that most cops will love it so much that they will take you back to the station so you can show all their buddies.

..................................................................................
Please, please, please........don't ANYONE tell me I shudda said this was SATIRE.

dairycreek
January 8, 2003, 11:47 AM
the officer came to the window and the first thing he asked was whether I was carrying or not. (In Oregon the CHL information pops up when the officer runs the driver's or the car's license on their computer system.) I answered, "yes" and then he asked where the gun was and I told him. Then we went directly to the business of why he stopped me (no tail light) and that was that - no ticket - but a written warning. Then he asked what kind of gun I was carrying and I told him a Glock 30. He really got animated then as he was, like me, a gun nut. We talked guns for about 20 minutes and both had a good time doing it. That was that. Only time I've ever been stopped. Good shooting:)

JamisJockey
January 8, 2003, 12:10 PM
I lived in AZ, once upon a time. I was carrying in a thumbsnap holster, sort-of. The gun was in the holster and wedged between the passenger seat and my transmission hump (Jeep Cherokee). I was pulled over, and volunteered the information. The cop asked me step out of the vehicle, he left the gun where it was, and wrote me a warning (despite 20+ over :evil: ). He thanked me for informing him about the firearm.
Next time I saw him was out shooting with a deputy sheriff friend of mine. They worked on my defensive handgunning skillz :cool:

Eamonn Wright
January 8, 2003, 12:10 PM
Hey Topgun,
It's Marty Feldman, not Allen. I'm a P.O., and I ask everyone I stop if they have any weapons in the veh or on their person. If they indicate that they have a gun, I ask them where it is, what it is, and do they have a license for it. If they have a license, I request same, asking them to try to keep their hands visible and away from their weapon. I will then confirm that the license is valid. Once I've determined the license is valid and they're not a badguy/gal I'll usually express my strong belief in the 2nd Amendment, and generally shoot the breeze about shooting, guns, & the horrendous state of Mass gun legislation. Then I'll send them on their way with a warning, because some day they may be my backup when the SHTF.

Topgun
January 8, 2003, 01:23 PM
I stand corrected. It IS Feldman. Gettin old here.

Detachment Charlie
January 8, 2003, 01:54 PM
It hasn't happened to me, yet. But here in FL, I believe that when they run your DL, the fact that you have a CCW will come up. Also, every time I have been stopped (in any state), the cop has asked if I have any weapons in the car.
Planning ahead, I will keep my hands on the top of the wheel where they are in plain site. After he/she asks If I know why I was stopped (Good Driver Award?), I'll tell him I have a weapon on me and a permit. The way I carry, if I reach for my wallet with DL & CCW my weapon will be exposed. I want him to know that I am legally carrying.
What I and the cop don't want is SURPRISES. :what: I don't believe there is any room in a situation like this for testosterone.
Regarding the "May I search your vehicle" question, anybody ever try this one: "Sure officer, as soon as I have a copy of your affidavit of probable cause and there is another witness to the search." This gets really interesting.:D

2nd Amendment
January 8, 2003, 02:10 PM
El Tejon, I was under the impression that it did NOT pop up in Indiana? I know it does in some other states but these stops were here at home?

Archie
January 8, 2003, 02:19 PM
I work in a law enforcement field, many of my associates could not tell the difference between a Churchhill SxS shotgun and an Illudium Pu-36 Explosive Space Modulator. The word "gun" on the lips of most anyone engenders distrust and fear verging on panic. ("But why would he have one?") I'm not talking about the badge-heavy types who figure "citizens" ought to be content being victims, but fairly normal thinking officers.

The lawmen who have responded on this forum are obviously the exceptions; please don't take offense. There are many others who just flat don't know enough about the subject; which accounts for the non-sentient questions like "You have a gun?"

Jato mentioned Because...someone has reported you as a suspect in a crime! However, that possibility has nothing to do with a regular traffic stop.
Jato, if you had probable cause for a stop based on specific information regarding a crime, you wouldn't treat it the same as a regular traffic stop, would you? And you wouldn't diddle about asking about permits, would you?

I've had the same problem. Stopped one night for a broken tail light (legitimate enough, it was broken), the officer asked if I had a gun in the car. I said yes. (I was in uniform going home from work.) He asked where it was. It was in a strong side holster on a duty belt, just like his was. He finally asked me out of the car to show him, read the patches and badge and stuff, and decided I wasn't a 7-11 bandit. So don't feel too put upon.
Got a fix-it ticket; fair enough.

And remember, the bulk of lawmen are like the bulk of the rest of the citizenry: all day long they get anti-gun propaganda blared at them from all sides. They are indoctrinated in what is called "situational awareness", but usually comes out to be "us and them paranoia".

sasnofear
January 8, 2003, 02:20 PM
i think police/public relations are very important. most cops are control freaks who jus wanna annoy you because they have nothing better to do. there are exception and i think labgrade is the sort of cop i'd like to see more of!

dave
January 8, 2003, 02:35 PM
" most cops are control freaks who jus wanna annoy you because they have nothing better to do." by sasnofear




Yep. And gun owners are all "gun nuts" who would kill a schoolyard full of children at the drop of a hat, just to watch them die.


And some folks wonder why the "anti" crowd treat all gun owners the same. After all, we're all "nuts", right?

12GA
January 8, 2003, 02:50 PM
What would be your reaction, during a traffic stop, to an individual who is carrying and has a CCW with the "hunting/trapping/target/transport to and from" restrictions written on it?

bronco61
January 8, 2003, 03:15 PM
If they indicate that they have a gun, I ask them where it is, what it is, and do they have a license for it. If they have a license, I request same, asking them to try to keep their hands visible and away from their weapon. I will then confirm that the license is valid. Once I've determined the license is valid and they're not a badguy/gal I'll usually express my strong belief in the 2nd Amendment,


Although I'm sure your intentions are good; Actively participating in and enforcing gun control does not display a "strong belief" in the 2nd Amendment.

Eamonn Wright
January 8, 2003, 03:27 PM
So Bronco61,
I guess all people, regardless if they are law abiding or not, should have a gun. I should just assume their intentions are good, and let them be on their merry way. I hope if they are en rte to make a withdrawal from the local stop & rob, none of your loved ones are in line. I've locked up many people with no prior criminal record. Tell me how to determine that the person with the gun, but no license, is really one of the good guys. It certainly isn't by lack of a criminal record. Then hire yourself out to Mistress Cleo, because you have a true gift.

tyme
January 8, 2003, 03:46 PM
E. Wright, it is not your duty to determine who has just made a withdrawl from a stop 'n rob. Your duty is to stay out of their business unless you have reason to believe a crime is being, has been, or in some cases will be committed.

bronco61
January 8, 2003, 04:03 PM
I should just assume their intentions are good, and let them be on their merry way.

DING! Innocent until proven guilty, and driving down the road w/out a "gun license" is NOT a crime.

I hope if they are en rte to make a withdrawal from the local stop & rob, none of your loved ones are in line.

They should be able to take care of themselves.....unless of course, you've already taken their firearm away because they didn't have the correct government papers for it.


Tell me how to determine that the person with the gun, but no license, is really one of the good guys.

The same way you can tell me how to determine that the person with the gun, but no license, is really one of the BAD guys.

Are you saying that the license they carry on them PROVES that they are NOT on their way to commit a crime or leaving the scene of a crime? You can't! The same as I can't prove that a guy with a gun, but no license, is one of the GOOD guys!

The fact of the matter is that taking people to jail for merely having a firearm when you have no proof or reason to believethat they've done anything criminal with it...IS GUN CONTROL and no different than what other countries do.

The ONLY thing a "license" proves is that the person jumped through the hoops to get it, or was one of the "elite" who are "allowed" to carry a firearm in some areas. IT DOES NOT SHOW INTENT!!

Matthew Courtney
January 8, 2003, 04:11 PM
It wasn't amusing at the time, but I do chuckle when I think about the time a Sherriff's deputy tried to unload my Remington 1100. It's not hard to do, but you do have to be familiar with one to avoid fumbling.

AK103K
January 8, 2003, 04:19 PM
I had some fun with a Deputy Game Protector, who must have just got out of school, tried to tell me I was gong to fined because I didnt pick up my brass at the range. As he inspected my 1851 Navy he wanted to know how to open the loading port to see if it was loaded. I informed him it didnt have any, which really seemed to annoy him. It took me, and two others at the range to convince him it didnt use cartridges and there was no brass to be left and no port to open. I felt very safe when I left knowing he was on duty. :rolleyes:

Eamonn Wright
January 8, 2003, 05:16 PM
Bronco61,
You may not agree that there should be any licensing of firearms, however you are wrong that driving down the street without a gun license is NOT crime. It IS a crime to have an unlicensed firearm where I'm from. I may not agree with every other law on the books, but should I be able to turn a blind eye toward those as well? I never said I could determine the intentions of every licensed gun owner, but it is a fact that a very small percentage of crime is committed by licensed gun owners. Conversely, most gun crimes are committed by unlicensed gun owners. We could probably go around in circles on this, but I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye.
Tyme, it's not my duty to determine who just robbed the local convenience store? Huh? My "duty" is to stay out of their business unless a crime is, has been, or will be committed? Your first sentence contradicts your second sentence. Maybe you can rephrase that so I understand what you mean.

bronco61
January 8, 2003, 06:11 PM
I meant "Crime" in the sense that it is harming anybody in any way. It is only a crime in the sense that there is a law in your state which prohibits carrying without a license. Oddly enough, in my state, a person may carry concealed legally w/out a license whenever outside a city limit. Evidently, everything changes because when we enter a town, we need to find our little ID's. I guess that once we enter a city limit, our morals change.

it is a fact that a very small percentage of crime is committed by licensed gun owners. Conversely, most gun crimes are committed by unlicensed gun owners

I've done much reading on this. My best source would be "More Guns Less Crime" which shows that although most gun crimes ARE committed by unlicensed gun owners, this means nothing as there is no way of knowing how many people carry w/out a permit in the first place so we can't tell the ratio of licensed people that commit crimes to unlicensed people who commit crimes.

I understand that you can't do your job in good conscious while turning a blind eye to people carrying w/out a license and that you may not agree with all laws in which you enforce. Luckily for me, I had the opportunity to ride with my cousin who is a P.O. and found that I couldn't in good couscious do the job because I am a true supporter of our 2nd Amendment (as well as the 4th, 9th, 10th among others).

I agree that we won't be able to see eye to eye and that arguing this would just be futile. I just wanted to point out the contradiction when you actively participate in, and enforce gun control and then immediately tell the same person that you are a big supporter of the 2nd Amendment. If you did that to myself and the people around here, there would be a lot of people needing stitches on their chins from their jaws dropping to the floorboards.

Matthew Courtney
January 8, 2003, 06:35 PM
Most states do not require a license of any kind to own a firearm. Massechusetts is an abberation in this regard. Many states do not even require any sort of permit to carry in your vehicle.

Bainx
January 8, 2003, 07:58 PM
I hope to encounter LEOs like you out there.

In my state, you don't have to tell them you have a permit but, I think it is only reasonable that I would.

suvdrvr
January 8, 2003, 08:17 PM
I thought that when you hand a firearm to someone that it should be unloaded and the action open. I believe I would ask if the LEO would like me to unload it before I handed it to him.

Eamonn Wright
January 8, 2003, 08:27 PM
Matthew Courtney,
Check out Packing.org sometime. You've got your facts a little confused. Most states have some type of licensing laws re concealed carry. I checked out your state, Louisiana, and guess what? To obtain a license to carry you need to fill out an application with the LSP, show an NRA or similar training certificate, and file fingerprints with the LSP. Sounds strangely like licensing requirements to me.
A quick question Bronco, not to belabor the point. If there are laws against shouting fire in a theater, and I support these laws, can I not be a supporter of the 1st Amendment?

labgrade
January 8, 2003, 09:12 PM
Kinda thought this would go off-shore some.

Still haven't had an answer (after a quick skim) from any LEO-type who can answer the (allbeit fairly ineptly put) question.

Let's try it again.

Unless I'm in "the position," how is me handing you my gun anything good for you?

That any easier?

We'll take up why might be in th eposition for doing absolutely nothing wrong if it comes up ....

"Colorado does not require that you inform an LEO that you are carrying."

Nope, but many Sheriffs do as a requirement of application or issuance. Larimer County for a fact requires that you notify upon contact. Failure to do so is cause for loss of license. A nit, but hey! that what we're here for. ;)

"and i think labgrade is the sort of cop i'd like to see more of!"

Thanks much, sasnofear, but it's been a long while since I wuz badged.

Fun enough job - one of the best I ever had, but the more I learned about the (formerly capitalized) constitution, just couldn't do it any longer.

mjustice
January 8, 2003, 09:20 PM
Unfortunately, New York allows the police officer to disarm you during a stop/confrontation. However, you are not required to inform an officer that you are carrying (but you do have to present your license if they ask for it). Since most cops don't even *think* to ask that in a non-felony-stop situation, I don't count on it happening.

If it did happen (the cop asks for my gun), I would probably explain that it is not in a place that I can reach with my hands on the dash. :D

I'd probably offer to step out of the car and let him take it. Pointing a pistol at a cop, even inadvertently, is a recipe for disaster. I'll take the chance of an A/D over the likely possibility of me covering the cop by accident.

If I tell him to grab by the grip and yank, how likely is he or she to put their finger in the trigger guard and squeeze with enough pressure to drop a DA hammer?

MJ

lapidator
January 8, 2003, 09:37 PM
Unless I'm in "the position," how is me handing you my gun anything good for you?


Quite simple actually: you cannot be trusted with a gun. Legally they cannot keep you from owning/possessing it, but during official contact they can, and usually do, prevent you from possessing it. Thus you must be disarmed.




Eamonn Wright,

If i may join in...

If there are laws against shouting fire in a theater, and I support these laws, can I not be a supporter of the 1st Amendment?

Please consider what you are saying. Gun ownership is analogous to vocal cord ownership; speaking is analogous to shooting. Therefore, what you mean is, "If there are laws against shouting fire in a theatre, and I support laws that make it illegal to possess vocal cords in theatres, can I not be a supporter of the 1st Amend.?" Right? ;)

Supporting the 2nd Amendment, regardless of what your think of our (Massachusetts') gun control laws, means understanding that people have a right to keep and bear arms. That means that the simple act of possessing said arms, while driving in an automobile on the streets of the Commonwealth is NOT a crime. If it is not a crime, then there is no probable cause that a crime is being committed.

IMO, enforcing the gun control laws of Massachusetts, those that are in violation of the 2nd and 14th Amendments to the COTUS, is therefore not "supporting the 2nd A".

Don't get me wrong. Given the alterrnative, i'll gladly see you enforcing the (largely absurd) laws of the Commonwealth, since you are apparently gun-friendly, then to deal with the vast majority of LEOs here that are clearly anti-gun.

lapidator

Thumper
January 8, 2003, 09:41 PM
The lawmen who have responded on this forum are obviously the exceptions; please don't take offense. There are many others who just flat don't know enough about the subject; which accounts for the non-sentient questions like "You have a gun?"

They're not the exception around here, Archie. In my neck of the woods, having a CHL is almost like having a get out of jail free card.

Societal differences.

Thumper
January 8, 2003, 09:46 PM
I've determined the license is valid and they're not a badguy/gal I'll usually express my strong belief in the 2nd Amendment
and
You may not agree that there should be any licensing of firearms, however you are wrong that driving down the street without a gun license is NOT crime.

Eamonn, unfortunately your contradictions are showing.

DMK
January 8, 2003, 09:57 PM
Labgrade, I'm sorry as I don't have an answer to your question, and am as dumfounded as you are in the logic of an officer asking a citizen to present their weapon when it should be safe in the holster.

I actually have a further question. Sitting stopped in a vehicle, exactly where should your weapon be pointed when handing it to the officer?

Pulled over on the side of a busy road, I can't think of any safe direction and I was always taught to keep the muzzle pointed in a direction where if the weapon was accidently or negligently discharged, it wouldn't hurt anyone!

In other words presenting a loaded weapon in a public place for any reason other than self defense is contrary to public safety.

Eamonn Wright
January 8, 2003, 10:31 PM
So Thumper,
by your logic, anyone who obtains a LTC or obeys the laws of their state cannot be a supporter of the 2nd amendment. How am I contradicting myself by stating the FACT that in my state there is a law against carrying an unlicensed firearm, and also that I support the 2nd Amendment? I suppose all you guys who want to slam me show your support of the 2nd by refusing to obey the laws of your states and get the proper licenses, etc., right? Because if you do, you are hypocritical. Why are there so many posts regarding licensing from people all over the country? All of these people surely aren't anti 2nd, are they?
Maybe it's me, but there are people in this society whom I believe have no right to carry a gun. Gun crime is what is making it so difficult for law abiding people to obtain guns. I know the media and left wing groups like the VPC routinely lie and distort the facts, but I get to see the results up close. How do we keep the guns from the criminals without violating their 2nd rights?

labgrade
January 8, 2003, 10:57 PM
DMK,

Thank you.

I think you're the only person who actually addressed the question as asked - ever.

Having once been "a cop," frankly I don't have an answer either & the whole reason for asking it.

Unless I put the "alleged perp" up against the car & in "the position," (having "utmost control over same") & drawing the "weapon" myself, well then, I'm an idiot no? & the "alleged perp" can just shoot me to his heart's content.

No?

Really, DMK, Thanks.

I have yet to see even that level of "I dunno" or "I'm screwed!" response - until yours.

Kinda blows my mind to actually & finally get anything close to an answer.

Still, I see no logic whatsoever in it (the "hand it over!") occuring.

If I can hand it over to the LEO, I can most certainly shoot him.

AND ... as a s spin-off ...

Eamonn Wright's
"How am I contradicting myself by stating the FACT that in my state there is a law against carrying an unlicensed firearm, and also that I support the 2nd Amendment? "

That is just so totally unbelieveably A-F'ing-Hoo!

& yer a cop, huh?

How Perfect!

You did once swear to uphold the (previously capitalised) constitution?

Isn't there something in there that says "shall not be infringed?"

Yeah, thought so. & your next argument might be ... ?

Really, EW.

Welcome to The Place Where Previous Beliefs Are Shot Down & Your Education Begins .....

We like to call it The High Road.

Matthew Courtney
January 8, 2003, 11:36 PM
Eamonn Wright,

You Need To Check Your Facts. There is no provision in Louisiana to license a firearm. I could not license a pistol with a golden engraved invitation from the governor. There are also no requirements what so ever that I so do. I may conceal a firearm on my person in my vehicle, home, or place of business. I may carry a concealed weapon on the property of any entity which gives me such permission.

I was in the committee room lobbying the legislature and handing out campaign contributions when these laws were last revised. Don't you dare presume to refer me to some "reliable" website to become educated.

bronco61
January 8, 2003, 11:55 PM
Eamonn Wright,
You have every Right to scream "fire" in a movie theater. You are also responsible for anybody injured because of your action.

Just like you have every right to carry a firearm. You are responsible for anybody injured because of your actions with the firearm.

So no, you're not a supporter of the 1st Amendment...either

Wildalaska
January 9, 2003, 12:12 AM
Eamon Wright..

Until the Supreme Court of the United States rules on the breadth, meaning and scope of the Second Amendment, your reasonable actions in enforcing the present and still constitutional laws of your jusrisdiction are appreciated.

Thanks for being a dedicated officer and providing us with your input. Please note that some of the most strident defenders of the Second Amendment are the ones who not only have an incorrect understanding of the law, but in additon, lack the courage of their own convictions in opposing what they construe as unconstitutional.

TheOtherOne
January 9, 2003, 12:48 AM
I told my friend that does volunteer work for the sheriff department about how the cop that pulled me over had me hand him my gun from the glovebox. He was really surprised and said first of all that he wouldn't have asked for it to begin with, but if he felt the need for some reason to disarm me that he sure as hell wouldn't of had me hand it to him, but instead would of had me get out of the car and taken me back to his car and then went and got the gun himself.


Oh, and on the other subject that splintered off in this thread: I don't understand why everyone is bashing on Eamonn Wright so much? I think it sucks that cops have to uphold these laws that violate the 2nd Amendment, but at the same time he has a point about all of us being hypocrits. After all it's our 2nd Amendment right to have guns, so we should just do it without the permits... but we still jump through the hoops and get the permits anyways.

Powderman
January 9, 2003, 08:18 AM
O-kay, folks! Let's all bash the cop who chooses to uphold the law!!

Hey, he may NOT agree with the law! Hot flash, to some!

I, for instance, do NOT agree with the law as annotated in the Revised Code of Washington that states that full-auto is illegal and declared contraband.

But you know what?

I swore an oath to enforce it--and I will!!

If you don't like a law, then do something about it. The tools to do so are the petition, referendum, and the recall.

Or, better yet, get off your duffs and vote for people who believe like you do.

But, with all due respect, don't you DARE sit at your computers and slam us because we choose to follow the law, and to uphold it.

Oh, and back to the original topic:

If I do a traffic stop and I think that the person MIGHT not be right--just something that doesn't look right or feel right--or even if I stop a pedestrian, and I have a reasonable suspicion that a crime might have been committed, is about to be committed, or is being committed, you can BET your bank account that you WILL be asked to step from the vehicle, and I WILL relieve you of your firearm until things can be sorted out. (Note: see "Terry" Stop)

Likewise, if you are a CCW bearer, and I inform you that until the traffic stop is over I am going to relieve you of your legally carried firearm, if you tell me NO, then guess what? You WILL be relieved of your firearm, at least on a temporary basis. If you want to make a scene of it, fine. Be prepared to be proned out, placed in cuffs, and put in the back of my car while we figure out what is happening.

Does that make me a traffic nazi? If so, so be it.
Does that make me a JBT? If you think so, oh well.

My only concern is to make sure that I get home safe that night; and that YOU get home safe too--which will be a LOT easier and quicker if you just tell me that you're carrying and show me your CCW.

Folks, we have a hard job. But, we're on the same side, okay? Let's not lynch each other.

jato
January 9, 2003, 08:24 AM
Archie,

Jato, if you had probable cause for a stop based on specific information regarding a crime, you wouldn't treat it the same as a regular traffic stop, would you? And you wouldn't diddle about asking about permits, would you?

I am not sure what you're getting at :confused: Are you referring to conducting a high risk stop as opposed to a low risk (routine) stop? Usually the only time a high risk stop is conducted is if there is reasonable suspicion that the occupants are felons.

If I have reasonable suspicion that the occupants are involved in infraction or misdemeanor activity (%95+ of my stops), it would be a routine type stop. If I came across a hand gun being carried (during concent/4th/parole search, incident to arrest, or during invintory of vehicle before stored/impound), I would ask for a permit, then go from there. Otherwise, I have the "don't ask don't tell policy" on my most of my stops.

I want citizens to be armed.

Did I answer your question?

Eamonn Wright
January 9, 2003, 12:55 PM
Powderman
Thanks for the support, I'm getting hammered here! This is the 1st time in my life anyone's ever bashed me for being too far left. I have to admit I was a little stunned at first, but I guess some would accuse Attilla the Hun of being a lefty (just trying to make a point....not asking for the Hun's political beliefs).
I appreciate most viewpoints here. I do know where you're coming from, believe it or not. I still would like to know how are we to stop the armed criminals; muggers, murderers, home invaders, rapists, etc. without violating their 2nd Amendment rights? I know how most here plan against such events, but some people don't want or like guns. They hope and expect their police to at least make an attempt to get the bad guys before they are victimized. It seems some here say we should do nothing until there are victims, and only then try to pick up the pieces of someones shattered life and figure out who did it. I know the argument that the police are under no obligation to protect the citizens, but some of us try like hell. Okay, you expect your families to protect themselves during the robbery at the Quickie Mart. I don't expect my grandmother will be able to, so if I can, I'll try to get the nitwit before that crime can be comitted. Many here don't like to hear this because I've taken his gun and locked him up, but I feel better about removing vermin from the street.
Matthew Courtney,
take a deep breath and relax. You live there, I don't. However, Packing.org is a well thought of reference for firearms laws. If they are wrong, don't scream at me, let them know. You'll also be helping out a lot of people here who may use that website.
Bronco,
I can yell fire in the crowded theater, and I will be responsible for any injuries. I will also be locked up for disorderly conduct.

bronco61
January 9, 2003, 01:07 PM
But, with all due respect, don't you DARE sit at your computers and slam us because we choose to follow the law, and to uphold it.

Wow! Well, sorry, but I will dare to point out the contradiction when people (citizens) uphold laws which they themselves admit to disagreeing with or feel are unconstitutional - while at the same time, stating that they are "supporters" of the Amendments being stomped on. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

By the way Powderman, most of us on here have been doing something about it. Exactly the same things you listed in fact. Many of us also ignore unjust laws or practice civil disobedience, as these laws may cause us more harm than good. If it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside to imprison us, that's your option. Just don't expect the rest of us to pat you on the back and tell you how wonderful you are.

The conversation we were having with Eamonn Wright started because I pointed out his contradiction when he actively participates in and enforces gun control and then immediately turns to the same people and tells them he's an ardent 2nd Amendment supporter. It was not meant to be a "Cop Bashing". In fact, Eamonn and myself had agreed to disagree and were finished with our debate.

If you don't want to read debates Powderman, you may want to stick to posts made by "Theebadone". He likes to post 5-6 threads in the "Legal Political" section in a day which are nothing more than Poems about LEO's. I think you'll love them.

bronco61
January 9, 2003, 01:10 PM
I still would like to know how are we to stop the armed criminals; muggers, murderers, home invaders, rapists, etc. without violating their 2nd Amendment rights?

Excellent question Eamonn. Exactly one of the reason's why we're all here in the first place! Maybe we can discuss this? I know I have some thoughts on this.

I know how most here plan against such events, but some people don't want or like guns.

That's their opinion and option not to carry one. The rest of us don't get to have our lives shattered by imprisonment and a felony conviction because we don't dislike guns and our Constitution supports us.

It seems some here say we should do nothing until there are victims, and only then try to pick up the pieces of someones shattered life and figure out who did it.

Not at all. The police don't have the ability of picking up the pieces of anyone's shattered life. They have some success at trying to figure out who did it, and if we wanted nothing done until there are victims, we wouldn't be asking for an armed society capable of protecting itself against predators.

I don't expect my grandmother will be able to protect herself

Unfortunately, our news media ignores all the MANY instances where citizens help/protect others. But, when you take away their ability to do so (as in disarming them), then these same "helpers" no longer care about helping, but their own survival/escape from the situation near them. That is when only cops have the ability to help. Well, you can't be everywhere at all times. You'd also have to trample the 2nd, 4th, 9th, 10th Amendments trying to find people who could be preparing to cause harm to others. (wait, that's already happening ;) )

When you see 4 airliners full of people taken over by someone with a boxcutter, you see what happens when people have been rendered incapable of protecting themselves Eamonn.

I can yell fire in the crowded theater, and I will be responsible for any injuries. I will also be locked up for disorderly conduct.

Exactly. My point is that you don't check people at the entrance to the theater for their "ability" to yell the word FIRE in the theater or for their "Posession" of the word without a license. You've confused "Action" with "Posession/ability".

Powderman
January 9, 2003, 03:45 PM
Ignore an unjust law? Your and my decision to make.

I will be the first to admit that I do not arrest for absolutely every little infraction that is committed. If that were the case, I would be arresting myself, over and over.

Practice civil disobedience?

Again, a decision to make. Personally, I don't believe that it is bad enough yet to do it. At this point, the only thing you will accomplish, IMHO, is to give yourself a criminal record and to look like a dunce. Yes, there IS a limit, of course. There IS a point where any reasonable man would say, "Enough, and no further." However, I think that our cause is still salvageable without such action. How?

Step 1. Formulate a plan.

Decide that there is a law that you want to be on the books--or one that you want to repeal--or someone who is a complete dunderhead that needs to be sent home to play in the sandbox.

Step 2. Draw up the proposed law.

In other words, create the dumbfounding legalese that all attorneys are fond of.

Step 3. Collect signatures.

This is the hard part.

You, and volunteers, will have to hit the bricks. You will have a two-fold job; this is the first part.

Collect enough signatures to put it on the ballot. In Washington State, that means (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong) about 250,000 signatures. This will ensure that it is in place on the next general election.

Step 4. Vote.

This is the second part of the job. You MUST convince the same people who put down their signatures to go and vote--and to get their friends and fencesitters to vote too.

This is what the politicians are scared to death of--that enough citizens will get tired of their BS and vote them right the heck out of their cushy little desk jobs that pay hideous amounts of money.

And guess what? IT WORKS!!!!!

Do a search on Washington State, and Tim Eyman. You'll be surprised and what can happen to State law when ordinary folks get their dander up.

Also, do a search on Initiative 626, also here in Washington. This initiative, which would have severely curtailed the right to keep and bear arms in this State (and, which I might add, was being hailed even before passage by the HCI/Sarah Brady/MMM types) was whacked down. This initiative was spanked so hard it disappeared totally, and nothing even close has been proposed since. IIRC, it was said to be the largest defeat a proposed piece of legislation has ever suffered in this State, defeated by something like an 85% vote.

So, instead of BREAKING the law, let's MAKE the law. Hey, this is the United States of America--the only country in the world where we CAN do that.

bronco61
January 9, 2003, 05:34 PM
Again, a decision to make. Personally, I don't believe that it is bad enough yet to do it. At this point, the only thing you will accomplish, IMHO, is to give yourself a criminal record and to look like a dunce.

I moved from California as a way of escaping gun laws I couldn't live with. I'm done moving. As far as "looking like a dunce" - so? The only people I'd look like a dunce to, are the one's who already think I'm a dunce for wanting to be armed.

I (and many others) do feel that it is bad enough now. We all have our limits which differ from person to person. What is your limit?

Your steps for making new laws which are in our favor are good one's. Unfortunately, it seems a bit odd to try to make new laws which overturn laws which ignore our ultimate laws (The Constitution) which we have in the first place. We have a guide to follow already.

What if "they" made a law which nobody followed or enforced? I honestly feel sorry if a lot of threads on this board look like cop bashing. Unfortunately, by your active participation in gun control and other unconstitutional laws, you become part of the enemy.

As you stated: We all have to make decisions. I chose not to become a LEO because of my convictions, Labgrade stopped being a LEO because of he held his convictions over a job.

Just something to think about but not to try to offend you: If you look back in history at what governments have done to people which were unjust; How do you feel about the people who enforced these wrongs imposed on people?

Powderman
January 10, 2003, 05:07 PM
The aim would not to make laws on top of other laws, but to remove laws that are on the books that are contrary to the Second Amendment. (Hey--that includes almost ALL of them!! How about that? :D )

For example, let's say that enough of us gun owners got together, and said, "Hey!! Enough of this GCA'68 and NFA and Assault Weapons Ban garbage. Out with the trash!" and drew up a referendum to repeal all of them in their entirety.

Let's then say that enough gun owners signed the thing. Think about it. Even if 3/4 of the estimated gun owners signed, that would be over 60 million signatures. Oooh, the possibilities!!

What do you say? What could we accomplish if 60 million gun owners nominated our own candidates and voted for them en masse?

Rotorhead
January 10, 2003, 06:44 PM
Labgrade,

"Larimer County for a fact requires that you notify upon contact." Thanks for the heads up. I had no idea. My county doesn't require it, how am I supposed to know Larimer county code? Another stupid question while we are on the subjuct. What about people who choose "legally I was told by local LEO" to carry conceled in the car without permit. (Something to do with the car being an extension of your home?)

Eamonn Wright, bronco61, Powderman, Thanks for your posts I always get such an education hanging around here and the old TFL

edit (spelling):rolleyes:

spacemanspiff
January 10, 2003, 06:54 PM
i think its up to the individual to research laws of any area they are in. 'ignorance' is never a justifiable defense.

labgrade
January 10, 2003, 07:53 PM
Okay.

Being an ex-cop, I can see the desires of all LEO-types to go home at the end of the day. I want to do that too.

Too, I might have a cop disarm me, after jumping through all the hoops to prove that I'm already good guy. Assumption being that everyone you come across is not? That seems quite contrary to all tenents of the constitution & bill of rights.

That whole assumption is that I am against the wall/in the position & already under a duress situation that none of my deameanor caused. I type much more vociferous than any of my words ever caused.

Imagine the consternation here, good LEO-folk. Best case = you have just created an enemy where there wasn't one one minute before. Tell y'all what. Being "thrown up against a vehicle" isn't conducive to a later-day friendy LEO-friendly experience.

You & me should be on the exact same side. We both believe in the sancrosancts of the BORs, 2nd Amend, yada -

Don't we?

This same basis of my "goodness" also comes from your own same "basis of goodness," right? Aren't we both "blessed" from that "higher authority" that gives license to & has checked us all to be "good" in the eyes of the law?

That your authority, coming from the same source, that just allowed me to carry "freely" to still take away my gun, makes me just want to shudder.

Just as a basic of comparision, didn't your authority come from that same place?

And, to bring it back to the initial question posited.

If you ask me to give you my gun, how is it that I just won't shoot you?

We keep drifting here towards a philosophy & not one of tactics.

Please answer that question first, & then we can drift off to mere philosophicals, huh? Maybe a whole 'nother thread - feel free, but I'd really just like to address my initial premise. Please. It's been well over 3 years.

Wildalaska posits a:

"Until the Supreme Court of the United States rules on the breadth, meaning and scope of the Second Amendment, your reasonable actions in enforcing the present and still constitutional laws of your jusrisdiction are appreciated.

Thanks for being a dedicated officer and providing us with your input. Please note that some of the most strident defenders of the Second Amendment are the ones who not only have an incorrect understanding of the law, but in additon, lack the courage of their own convictions in opposing what they construe as unconstitutional."

I would counter with a clear reading of the Miller Decison.

Of course you've read it & concur since it's binding, being a ruling set forth by the SCOTUS?

Right?

Then, of course, you'd already know your position to be in opposition to your own statement.

Let's please be consistant here.

My reading of Miller is that I cannot be in possession of any weapon not conducive to the effectivenes of the militia. I'd like to think many of your own posts have reflectived that same = we are allowed all weapons to protect & defend this country, from all enemies - foreign and domestic.

As a quick aside, how is it that I, who have allowed the guv'mint to do a colon-xscope of my entire past-life & I have come up clean & being presented with their own "Stamp Of Approval" could be a "bad guy?"

If they've done their search completely enough, I am certainlt well-qualified enough to be at the least, as good as any they'd consider "A Cop."

& still, I may very well be considered "a threat," merely because "I possess."

I cannot condone & I will, at every breath of me puke at disgust those who will not recognize that I too have already proven, (as if that would ever be necessary)

I very much await your own "ruling" to support your stated premise.

Powderman,

"But you know what?

I swore an oath to enforce it--and I will!! "

Did you?

I bet you swore an oath to defend the constitution - not any laws that may, or may not be contrary to same.

"Likewise, if you are a CCW bearer, and I inform you that until the traffic stop is over I am going to relieve you of your legally carried firearm, if you tell me NO, then guess what? You WILL be relieved of your firearm, at least on a temporary basis. If you want to make a scene of it, fine. Be prepared to be proned out, placed in cuffs, and put in the back of my car while we figure out what is happening."

Or, as an unlawful & willing violator of rights, how 'bout I just shoot you COM for attempting to illegally violating my civil rights?

So much for all of us being in the same ball-park, no? & you getting to go home safely.

I betcha I could get a lawyer to dig up some of your previously archived TFL posts where you staunchly uphold your beliefs regards the 2nd & bill of rights. You are assumedly aware of at least some of these facts.

And, willingly being aware, wouldn't you be in complete violation thereof AND that of civil rights violations as well?

Contiplate that at your leisure.

Want to enforce unconstitutional laws? regardless of how the rulings have gone - wanna start a whole new thread whether or not you can legally deprive me of my 2nd right to posessess firearms without due process AND above & beyond, I have already proven myself to be crime-free for 50+ years, gone through the process, yada, etc. to the point of throwing up & still some of you will want to violate me for your own self-perceived belief that you are not a servant of us!?

And how that "civil servant" stutus does rankle, no?

You are, like it or not, our civil servants.

Says so in our contract with you who chose to sign it.

You are subserviant to our laws & have no choice but to abide by that, your written contract, to us, and our constitution.

That you would choose to use a "court of law" that does bastardize it will not releive you from your word & sworn oath.

So much for honor, oath & your own word regards the constitution. Guess you'll blithley go about what it is you think you shall, to observe that which you will - regardsless.

So be it & that's what you'll ed up with. Well met! Sirs & slaves.

But,

back to the question posited.

If I choose to hand you a weapon, why wouldn't I just shoot you?

Have a nice day.

Wildalaska
January 10, 2003, 08:45 PM
Labgrade..

Your understanding of the Miller decision is erroneus.

Rather than continue this tiresome debate, may I suggest that you make an M16 rifle (clearly a militia weapon). Then announce to the press that you have one and will carry same at such and such a date in such a such a place to demonstrate your rights. Do it peaceably, and argue later in Court that you have aright to bear your militia weapon and that the NFA is unconstitional based on the 2nd ammendment.

If you win, more power to all of us. Until you do so, however, may I suggest that you preface your erroneus legal theories with the famous IMHO...

Furthermore:
"Likewise, if you are a CCW bearer, and I inform you that until the traffic stop is over I am going to relieve you of your legally carried firearm, if you tell me NO, then guess what? You WILL be relieved of your firearm, at least on a temporary basis. If you want to make a scene of it, fine. Be prepared to be proned out, placed in cuffs, and put in the back of my car while we figure out what is happening."

Bravo to this officer...I would add that IMHO, the person who says "No" should be forever deprived of a license to carry.

And finally:

Or, as an unlawful & willing violator of rights, how 'bout I just shoot you COM for attempting to illegally violating my civil rights?

IMHO, an attitude such as this demonstrates why the antis classify gun owners as the "lunatic fringe"..

Powderman
January 10, 2003, 09:13 PM
labgrade--

Come on, now. I do NOT agree with all of the laws I am sworn to uphold. But that is my--and your--privilege, living in and being a part of the United States of America.

As far as swearing in, you bet I did--both as a cop, and also at the beginning of each new enlistment while serving in the Army. I took the oath there 4 times. I feel that I am still bound by it.

Yes, I believe that there are egregious breaches of our civil rights. I believe that these could be remedied, and addressed without the need to go directly from soap box to cartridge box.

Can you tell me why it seems that the only way some folks know how to address these questions about our rights is with deadly force? Why threaten?

You say, "Why don't I just shoot you COM?" Indeed, why not? That would make a great, shining example, would it not?

Think about it.

But, know this well, my friend--if you do exercise this option, you will not be seen as a citizen. You will not be remembered as a patriot.

You will not be known as a person who stood foursquare behind their Constitutional rights.

The only thing you'll be known as is a cop killer.

You say that you spent time as an LEO. How can you say, or even hint that you would kill a cop?

In closing, let me say this, fella--just in case you don't remember--

We who wear the badge--men and women of all ages, races creeds and colors--usually do not whimper or plead when our time comes.

We die hard.

Please do us all a favor--for the sake of those who know you, for your family, your friends, and in honor of the badge you once wore--don't attempt to carry out that scenario. In this case, there are no winners.

Good day, and God be with you.

labgrade
January 10, 2003, 10:54 PM
Quickly,

I'll just say that there are enough of those who will say that the constitution says what it says & the bill of rights does too.

Period.

Didn't nessecarily say that I would kill a cop, only that I might - you may force me to - in the enforcement of my own rights & that of my family.

It's your choice. Frankly you get to choose whether or not you will uphold unlawful laws or not. & by your choice, you will get to decide whether or not you get to go home to your family that evening, & possibly that your family is even there to come home to - it will be war war, eventually, no?

I[/] get to decide. Don't I? & that's everytime you try to enforce some stupid law that you swore to uphold?

Don't take it to seriously. Not like I'd try ro kill you every time you stop me for every traffic vioaltion. It may be only every 1 out of 10 ....



There are those who have made a list of those who will, or will not, enforce the laws of the (emphatically capitalized) Constitution.

It is written down in a couple places & I'd behoove you to think about that before you start spouting off how much an LEO you are & what the constitution means to you.

You have decided not to live within the framework of the Bill of Rights, having sworn to uphold same, have caused a pretty good schism.

Frankly, wasn't me = I was already on the side on the Constitution.

& you?

I din't choose it, I'm not part of it, but you will get to play a goodly part of it - as you see fit. I would choose the side of The Constitution if I was you. You, & your family's life really does depend upon it.

Might be a good idea to read it - at least once.

Seriously, there's some way beyond my own thoughts that think you're a nut-case & will kill you because of those views.

& I'm a way moderate ..... & really only tell you what's coming down the pike.

I din't make it it & I din't do anything but try to tell you what's coming.

There's those that will kill you, with zero mercy, & likey kill your own family as part of a , if you will, just because you have chosen not be part of what this country was founded on.

Wildalaska,

I never wanted to go make an M16. Frankly, I can do just as much with a scoped .308 bolt-gun as I've already legally played with with any full-auto anything. Please do give me the Most Pure Militia Weapon = A scoped, bolt rifle, or really, anything single action in the hnads of any who would care to preserve their freedoms.

How 'bout the Butterknife Brigade!?

& really, if I wanted to make anything "illegal" & use it? What could The Guv really do to stop me?

Powderman, in his:

[I]"Come on, now. I do NOT agree with all of the laws I am sworn to uphold. But that is my--and your--privilege, living in and being a part of the United States of America.

As far as swearing in, you bet I did--both as a cop, and also at the beginning of each new enlistment while serving in the Army. I took the oath there 4 times. I feel that I am still bound by it.

Yes, I believe that there are egregious breaches of our civil rights. I believe that these could be remedied, and addressed without the need to go directly from soap box to cartridge box. Come on, now. I do NOT agree with all of the laws I am sworn to uphold. But that is my--and your--privilege, living in and being a part of the United States of America.

As far as swearing in, you bet I did--both as a cop, and also at the beginning of each new enlistment while serving in the Army. I took the oath there 4 times. I feel that I am still bound by it.

Yes, I believe that there are egregious breaches of our civil rights. I believe that these could be remedied, and addressed without the need to go directly from soap box to cartridge box."

Already knows, but just hasn't made the leap ....

labgrade
January 10, 2003, 10:58 PM
written as a proxy -

I cannot take full credit - - as if.

all I can say on that one ...

Eamonn Wright
January 10, 2003, 11:08 PM
WOW. Labgrade, you say you're a former LEO? After reading you post about " how about I just shoot you COM for attempting to violate my civil rights.", I find it hard to believe. An LEO asking you if he can hold onto your gun for the duration of a traffic stop...hmmm, sounds like a justifiable deadly force situation to me. I'm sure a jury would see it that way. If they didn't, so what, you were a MAN and you stood up to the jack booted thugs. By the way, I haven't heard anyone say they have any automatic weapons. Shouldn't you, if you're serious about what you claim to be?

Powderman, I've always wondered, if the taxpayers pay my salary, and I pay taxes, does that mean I'm self employed?

nygunguy
January 10, 2003, 11:33 PM
Why does everyone get stopped so much? Maybe its just dumb luck but I haven't been pulled over in 10 years.

On the other hand I'd better figure out what I'm going to do if I do get pulled over.

Powderman
January 10, 2003, 11:33 PM
"Didn't nessecarily say that I would kill a cop, only that I might - you may force me to - in the enforcement of my own rights & that of my family. "

O-kay.Here we go about killing cops again. Why?


"There are those who have made a list of those who will, or will not, enforce the laws of the (emphatically capitalized) Constitution. "

"It is written down in a couple places & I'd behoove you to think about that before you start spouting off how much an LEO you are & what the constitution means to you. "

"You have decided not to live within the framework of the Bill of Rights, having sworn to uphold same, have caused a pretty good schism."

Let's see--so I choose a profession that I enjoy, and I deserve to die for it, right? I'm really understanding now. And, not living within the framework of the Bill of Rights? I guess that's why I served 15 years in the service of this Nation. I guess, too, that's why my son is currently a Marine on active duty. I guess that's why I met my wife on a missile site in Korea, where she was on active duty. None of us believe in living within the framework of the Constitution, I guess.

"There's those that will kill you, with zero mercy, & likey kill your own family as part of a [I[jihad[/I], if you will, just because you have chosen not be part of what this country was founded on. "

Me AND my family? O-kay.

I guess you think that this makes you a patriot, huh?

We have a term for people who think like this.

It's called terrorist.

Bring it on, Osama.

Wildalaska
January 10, 2003, 11:59 PM
I never wanted to go make an M16. Frankly, I can do just as much with a scoped .308 bolt-gun as I've already legally played with with any full-auto anything. Please do give me the Most Pure Militia Weapon = A scoped, bolt rifle, or really, anything single action in the hnads of any who would care to preserve their freedoms.

With the utmost respect, not only do you misintepret the Constitution, you even misinterpret my post.

I quite frankly am tired of seeing the same lunatic litany over and over about what the 2nd Amenedment says. I say to you, and to each of you who spout the same tired nonsense: If you believe that you have the right to keep and bear any small arms whatsoever without any restriction whatsoever because of the 2nd Amendment then show that you have the courage of your convictions: Get an M16 and walk down the street with it, and then CHALLENGE the law in court. Heck, Al Sharpton, the clown of NY, has the courage to get arrested for what he believes in. He is not a coward...where do you stand..


Didn't nessecarily say that I would kill a cop, only that I might - you may force me to - in the enforcement of my own rights & that of my family. It's your choice. Frankly you get to choose whether or not you will uphold unlawful laws or not. & by your choice, you will get to decide whether or not you get to go home to your family that evening, & possibly that your family is even there to come home to - it will be war war, eventually, no?


Sir I guess because the moderators havent stepped in here that they are enforcing their rule regarding free speech. On the other hand, free speech, despite what the ignorant may think, does not give you the right to cry Fire in a crowded theatre. Nor does it give you the right to threaten anyone, express or implied. As far as I am concerned sir, your words would justify your being banned from this Board. Thats not in my power. On the other hand, at least I can say, IMHO, that your words are disgraceful and bring shame upon all responsible firearms owners.

Matt G
January 11, 2003, 09:30 AM
Closed under Rule 5:
5.) We cannot provide a comprehensive list of "Things Not To Say".Posts that are contrary to the above policies, or to the mission of The High Road, may be edited or deleted at our sole discretion. Membership may be revoked if such a step is deemed necessary by us. We're a private venture enabled by an all-volunteer staff. Please treat this venue as a polite discussion in a friend's home and respect the wishes of the hosts.

When the talk moves to implications that one sect of our Membership would shoot another sect, I'm willing to fade the heat for shutting this thread down. I think there were definitely some simple miscommunications being manifested within a discussion in which the priniples disagreed in the first place.

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