[Nhsport]

What are you folks useing for match loads for the garand? I have done quite a bit of reloading but realise the garand has some special concerns.
Any posibility of comeing up with a load that would be decent accuracy wise for both the Garand and the 03?
Thanks

[SlamFire1]

I have shot thousands of rounds of 30-06 Match ammunition in my Match Garands. I must assume you are asking about 30-06 but there are 308 Match Garands out there.

A match load I have used for years is a 168 Sierra Matchking, 47.0 grains IMR 4895, LC cases (any case will do), CCI #34 primer.

You never want that free floating firing pin tapping the primer before the lugs are fully engaged. This is the most important safety consideration for a Garand and M14. Purchase "Wilson" type cartridge headspace gages. Purchase a small base die, especially if you have a commerical barrel on your rifle. Size your cartridges to gage minimum. This will ensure that your cases will never be overlength in the chamber which would delay bolt closure. Small base dies will ensure that your case is not "fat", which also delays bolt closure. Never use Federal primers as they are too sensitive. Use the least sensitive primers around. CCI advertizes their #34 primer as Mil Spec, which means it is a magnum primer and it takes a good lick to set it off. Following this advice will reduce your risk of an out of battery slamfire to a very small probability.

Set your OAL to LT 3.30". The 168 Matchking can skip a country mile and still be a tack driver, so set your OAL to fit in the mag for function sake.

[ADKWOODSMAN]

+1 for the load above. I used it with hornady 165's for years as my NRA High Power load.
RDH

[USSR]

LC brass
168gr bullets
46.5gr surplus IMR4895
Winchester WLR primer

The CCI #34 primer is not needed with an extruded powder like 4895 or 4064. It is a magnum primer best suited to setting off the harder to ignite ball powders. High primers are what cause slamfires, so just uniform your primer pockets and make sure your primers are fully seated.

Don

[Khornet]

Having used many, many Federal primers in my M1. And all that time without small-base dies, which I would think will wear out your brass faster. I think it's more important to be sure you seat the primer below flush.

I simply got a good case gauge (I agree, Wilson is excellent) and double checked my sizing for my specific rifle by seeing whether a dummy round will chamber and lock up easily when I have the oprod spring and extractor and ejector removed. Just point the muzzle slightly downward.

Of course, I NEVER single-load without a SLED.

And I think I read here recently that CCI says its primers are no harder than the others.

Also, If I recall correstly, the bolt is so shaped that the firing pin can't go all the way forward until the bolt has rotated into battery. I wonder how many slam-fires have been caused by wear on the bolt or the hooked end of the firing pin.

Don's load has worked well for me using Federal match primers.

[SlamFire1]

High primers are what cause slamfires,

USSR: I have seen you repeat this statement a number of times. And you are 100% wrong if you think only high primers cause slamfires. As previously stated, you are one of these people who will not acknowledge primer sensitivity as a factor. Instead you consistently post: “high primers are what cause slamfires”.

In fact, the primary factor for slamfires is primer sensitivity. High primers happen, will cause a slamfire, but factory ammunition seldom have high primers. And yet lots of slamfires have happened with factory ammunition. The reason: sensitive primers and a free floating firing pin.

Primer sensitivity equipment is not available (like chronographs), so people can’t test primer lots and see the varying levels of energy it takes to ignite primers. They also don’t know the kinetic energy of the free floating firing pin. The “conventional wisdom” then becomes that all primers are the same and the cause of slamfires is due to something "else". This assumption is 100% false, but I don’t have the primer sensitivity data to prove it. And neither do the people who insist that all primers are all the same.

But there is enough data in print, available to the shooting community to show that overly sensitive primers do cause slamfires. If you look in Chapter eight, page 130, of the “Black Rifle” by R. Blake Stevens, there is an entire section on the slamfire problems the Army had with the M16. A number of AR15 slamfire incidents occurred when cartridges were single loaded and the bolt release pressed.

If you read the report in the book, dated 1963, based on the tests of two rifles with the firing pin configuration available at the time, the energy during bolt closure of one of the test rifles firing pin always was above the “none fire” specifications of the primer. Which meant that statistically some of the primers would ignite at those energy levels. So the Army did two things. The first was to test alternate firing pin configurations, all pictured in the book, and one has a spring undoubtedly like the current AR-10 design, and the second was to change the ammunition specifications to require a harder primer.

The Garand has a long free floating firing pin, and it is the rifle that is most likely to have a slamfire with reloaded ammunition. If you shot with enough people who shot Garands in Highpower Competition, you would have heard of a surprising number of slamfire incidents. Back then, the common thread, was Federal Primers. Now it appears that WLR primers have been re-engineered to be too sensitive.

Your advice to uniform primer pockets is good advice, but you and the others who constantly reassure people that they should only be worried about “high primers” are doing a disservice to the shooting community.

[30Cal]

You can't eliminate the possiblity of a slamfire, but you can minimize it.

I've been shooting WLR primers in LC brass. I uniform the pockets so that the primers are 0.010" below flush. I check each primer and clean the pocket after every firing. My sizing die is set to SAAMI minimum.

I shoot 45.5gr IMR 4895 with the 168HPBT and 173grFMJ bullets--3.325 OAL. IMR4064 is also a great powder. Some people don't like the "crunchiness" of 4064, but it doesn't seem to have much affect on where the bullet holes end up.

Ty

[SlamFire1]

You can't eliminate the possiblity of a slamfire, but you can minimize it

Totally agree. Everything I have described reduces risk by following procedures within the control of the reloader. Primers sensitivity is outside the reloader’s control. Primers are considered OK as long as they pass a lot acceptance test procedure. George E. Frost, in his NRA publication “Ammunition Making”, provides a good description and procedure for a primer sensitivity test. Of interest, the drop distance, H – 2S (two standard deviations) means that 4 primers in 900 would be expected to fire, and H + 5S means 3 in 10, 000, 000 primers are expected to misfire. It is my recollection that these represent the high and low drop distances. But, it can be seen that even at the lowest drop, there is a small probability of primer ignition. But the statistics are such that someone can claim that they have shot tens of thousands of the most sensitive primers around, and never had a problem. But if one of these gentleman ever have an out of battery slamfire, they will understand that no one is free from the law of averages.

Anyway, in a gas gun, it is important to use a “hard” primer, and to follow reloading practices which ensure that the bolt closure is not delayed.

[USSR]

USSR: I have seen you repeat this statement a number of times. And you are 100% wrong if you think only high primers cause slamfires. As previously stated, you are one of these people who will not acknowledge primer sensitivity as a factor. Instead you consistently post: “high primers are what cause slamfires”.

In fact, the primary factor for slamfires is primer sensitivity. High primers happen, will cause a slamfire, but factory ammunition seldom have high primers. And yet lots of slamfires have happened with factory ammunition. The reason: sensitive primers and a free floating firing pin.

Primer sensitivity equipment is not available (like chronographs), so people can’t test primer lots and see the varying levels of energy it takes to ignite primers. They also don’t know the kinetic energy of the free floating firing pin. The “conventional wisdom” then becomes that all primers are the same and the cause of slamfires is due to something "else". This assumption is 100% false, but I don’t have the primer sensitivity data to prove it. And neither do the people who insist that all primers are all the same.

But there is enough data in print, available to the shooting community to show that overly sensitive primers do cause slamfires. If you look in Chapter eight, page 130, of the “Black Rifle” by R. Blake Stevens, there is an entire section on the slamfire problems the Army had with the M16. A number of AR15 slamfire incidents occurred when cartridges were single loaded and the bolt release pressed.

If you read the report in the book, dated 1963, based on the tests of two rifles with the firing pin configuration available at the time, the energy during bolt closure of one of the test rifles firing pin always was above the “none fire” specifications of the primer. Which meant that statistically some of the primers would ignite at those energy levels. So the Army did two things. The first was to test alternate firing pin configurations, all pictured in the book, and one has a spring undoubtedly like the current AR-10 design, and the second was to change the ammunition specifications to require a harder primer.

The Garand has a long free floating firing pin, and it is the rifle that is most likely to have a slamfire with reloaded ammunition. If you shot with enough people who shot Garands in Highpower Competition, you would have heard of a surprising number of slamfire incidents. Back then, the common thread, was Federal Primers. Now it appears that WLR primers have been re-engineered to be too sensitive.

Your advice to uniform primer pockets is good advice, but you and the others who constantly reassure people that they should only be worried about “high primers” are doing a disservice to the shooting community.

SlamFire1,

Well, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. In many, many years of shooting the M1 Garand whereby the primer pockets have been uniformed to the correct depth, and loaded with WLR primers I, and several HP shooters I know, have never had a slamfire. As for your statement that I am "...doing a disservice to the shooting community", I would respectfully suggest you have your head in a bodily orifice that sees very little sunlight.

Don

[SlamFire1]

Well, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. As for your statement that I am "...doing a disservice to the shooting community", I would respectfully suggest you have your head in a bodily orifice that sees very little sunlight


Well now there are two things upon which we can agree to disagree.

[Sunray]

"...You can't eliminate the possiblity of a slamfire...it is important to use a “hard” primer..." Nonsense. Slam fires are caused by improperly loaded ammo. Not the rifle or the primer used. What do you think loaders used before there was such a thing as 'milspec' primers? CCI 'milspec' primers are a marketing thing. Nothing more. Regular large rifle primers have worked just fine for 30 plus years in my rifle. Seat the primer properly and you'll have no problems.
"...for both the Garand and the 03..." Not likely. You can use the same bullet(168 grain match bullets or 165 grain hunting bullets. The '06 loves these bullet weights.), powder(IMR4064 gives more consistent accuracy than IMR4895) and primer, but you'll have to work up a load for each rifle. It is possible that you'll get lucky and both your rifles will like the same load, but its unlikely.
Full length resizing every time is required for the M-1. You can neck size only for the '03, if and only if you use that brass only in your '03. I've been using the same brass in my '03A4 and M-1 for eons by just full length resizing. You'd have to FL to use the same brass in any two rifles chambered in the same cartridge. Even two with consecutive serial numbers. It's a manufacturing thing. Every chamber is slightly different due to wearing of the tooling.

[Khornet]

with your point about 4064 vs 4895. Also about neck sizing; I do it for my 03A3 with excellent results, but it's the only '06 bolt rifle I have.

Anyone notice my point about the firing pin movement? I think it's something about the shape of the receiver, actually, which keeps the tang of the FP blocked from forward movement until bolt rotation is complete, swinging the tang clear of the receiver so it can go forward. I wonder how many slam-fires are a result of wear on the receiver, bolt lugs, or FP tang rather than primer hardness.

Slamfire, I note in your comments about AR15/M16 slamfires that they got theirs by, well, slamming the bolt closed on a single-loaded round. That's why I don't do that.

Also, there is a modification-Roland Beaver did it on my rifle- to put a spring around the FP so that it can't fly forward without a hammer blow.

[USSR]

I brought the subject up of the CCI #34 primer on another forum devoted to battle rifles, and the Garand in particular, and here is what is being said:

http://www.ambackforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=49693

Don

[byf43]

Load for .30-'06 Garand:


Sierra 168 gr MatchKing BTHP (to save a little, the GameKing 165 gr. BTHP shoots well, too!)
LC brass, OR Federal brass
Federal 210M primer
Winchester W748 - 47.7 gr.

Brass is trimmed to SAAMI spec.
Use all 'standard' safe loading practices.
Seat bullet to fit in magazine.

This load groups VERY well in my slightly accurized 1943 era Springfield Armory M1.

As for slamfires.
I strongly suggest that everyone read the article "The Mysterious Slam Fire" by Wayne Faatz. It was published in 'The American Rifleman' in 1984. (November, I believe.)

FWIW, I have used Federal primers and Winchester primers with NO ill effects since 1983/1984 in not only my Garand, but also my AR-HBAR and lately, in my SAI M1A.
I will NOT use CCI primers in anything that I load.

Thanks for reading.

[P-32]

Also, there is a modification-Roland Beaver did it on my rifle- to put a spring around the FP so that it can't fly forward without a hammer blow.

Roland did this on my match 308 M-1. What he did for me was to put a spring under the tang of the firing pin by drilling a hole in the bolt under the tang. I still get a "dimple" with a round which has been chambered. I single load with a sled and use 2 and 8 round clips when shooting rapids. Because Roland did spring the firing pin in this rifle, I do use Federal match primers. These are getting hard to find right now so I'm going to try out CCI BR's soon. I'm going to try these in my '06 M-1 as well. I have used standard CCI's without problems in the '06 so far.

Slam fires are a concern for not only the M-1 but the M-14's/M-1A's and M-16/AR-15's. I have a shooting buddy who had a slam fire with his AR using a Federal Primer when closing the bolt on a single loaded round shooting off hand during a match. He is a careful reloader.

I always uniform my primer pockets and make sure the primers are seated below flush. I've found Lake city M-852 brass already very uniform and I've found TW 54 ball brass to be very uniform for the '06 as well. I use a hand held priming tool, Lee, as I like the "feel" and know when I'm fully seated.

For the AR I like Remington 7 1/2's primers. My supplier is having a hard time getting these, dang it.

[SlamFire1]

As for slamfires. I strongly suggest that everyone read the article "The Mysterious Slam Fire" by Wayne Faatz. It was published in 'The American Rifleman' in 1984. (November, I believe.)


For a time Springfield Armory provided a copy of that article with every SuperMatch they sold. It has been a long time since I read that article but that article is the ground zero for the High Primer Group.

Mr Faatz had a slamfire with a Federal primer. And unlike most people people who just yak about things, he wanted to find out the root cause. It is evident that Mr. Faatz is a normal human being with a normal house hold budget, which meant his test apparatus was limited to his rifle and his reloading tools. And that is the limitation of his article. Mr. Faatz was unable to spend several hundred thousand dollars in test equipment, test articles, and computer analysis time. High speed camera’s to determine the kinematics of the Garand, sensors to measure the firing pin strike, and primer test equipment cost a lot of money. So really, Mr. Faatz was unable to model the dynamics of the system.

What Mr. Faatz did show is that you can get ignite a high primer in a Garand, but it took him a lot of time and jiggling to do so. And he added to our knowledge and hats off to him.

Unfortunately what he added has been twisted to “only high primers cause slamfires”. Which is false. And those who advocate this position are setting folks up for potential slamfires.

It used to be that you only heard of slamfires with M1’s and M1a’s. But enough rounds are being fired in AR’s that people are reporting experiences with slamfires in that system. As you have read, they are apologetic because they believe it is something they did wrong: i.e. left a high primer. And that could be a cause. But it could also be because they had a sensitive primer. But they can’t prove that, and “conventional” wisdom does not acknowledge that as a cause.

The good thing about the AR system is that slamfires occur with the lugs engaged. Obviously some have occurred in the past out of battery, but not with the frequency that M1’s had or we would certainly hearing about blown up AR’s.

[byf43]

For a time Springfield Armory provided a copy of that article with every SuperMatch they sold. It has been a long time since I read that article but that article is the ground zero for the High Primer Group.

Mr Faatz had a slamfire with a Federal primer. And unlike most people people who just yak about things, he wanted to find out the root cause. It is evident that Mr. Faatz is a normal human being with a normal house hold budget, which meant his test apparatus was limited to his rifle and his reloading tools. And that is the limitation of his article. Mr. Faatz was unable to spend several hundred thousand dollars in test equipment, test articles, and computer analysis time. High speed camera’s to determine the kinematics of the Garand, sensors to measure the firing pin strike, and primer test equipment cost a lot of money. So really, Mr. Faatz was unable to model the dynamics of the system.

What Mr. Faatz did show is that you can get ignite a high primer in a Garand, but it took him a lot of time and jiggling to do so. And he added to our knowledge and hats off to him.

Unfortunately what he added has been twisted to “only high primers cause slamfires”. Which is false. And those who advocate this position are setting folks up for potential slamfires.

It used to be that you only heard of slamfires with M1’s and M1a’s. But enough rounds are being fired in AR’s that people are reporting experiences with slamfires in that system. As you have read, they are apologetic because they believe it is something they did wrong: i.e. left a high primer. And that could be a cause. But it could also be because they had a sensitive primer. But they can’t prove that, and “conventional” wisdom does not acknowledge that as a cause.

The good thing about the AR system is that slamfires occur with the lugs engaged. Obviously some have occurred in the past out of battery, but not with the frequency that M1’s had or we would certainly hearing about blown up AR’s.


Wayne Faatz was one of two individuals that introduced me to High Power Rifle Competition at my local sportsman's club, back in the early 1980s.
Wayne was a fantastic coach and a very intelligent man.
(Unfortunately for our club, Wayne moved out the area in the late '80s if memory serves me.)

Some of his testing was done right after our local High Power Matches, and yes, he did have a normal household budget to live with. :)