loading 10mm


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jimbeam
June 9, 2007, 09:00 PM
After loading numerous rifle and .357, .41, and .44 mag for 35 years, I can say the 10mm in a S&W 1006 has been my biggest challenge in finding an accurate load, mainly the right powder. Unique seems to be widely accepted as an all-purpose powder for many different calibers, I have had no luck with it. AA no 9 seems like it has promise, but for me a heavy charge works better with a 155 grain Hornady XTP than 180's. After a few weeks of experimenting with different bullet-powder-primer combos, and not satisfied with accuracy, pistol functioned perfectly, I tried AA no 7, what a difference. After working up to 9.9 grains with 185 grain lasercast bullet this pistol shoots like a different weapon. I have had only one other gun that I really had to work to get a good accurate load, and that was a ruger 6mm varmint rifle. Had to go to IMR 4320 to get outstanding accuracy. Now, I am thinking that too slow a burning powder does not fully combust in shorter barrels, thus having too much of a range in pressures, which will cause erratic results. After all, consistent pressure should cause the fired round to hit near the same point of aim, all else equal. Anyone have thoughts on this. JB

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Lennyjoe
June 9, 2007, 10:10 PM
The best load for my 1006 was 800X under 180gr bullets. Also, Blue Dot and Power pistol works good too.

pinkymingeo
June 9, 2007, 10:38 PM
Longshot in my 5" 610 revolver gives the most consistent results I've ever seen in a handgun cartridge. Under a 180 Zero JHP, 8.7 (1150fps) gives me total 10-shot spreads averaging 21fps. 8.8 (1160fps) averages 19fps. Max velocities only vary about 5fps from lot to lot. I only get these numbers with a very heavy crimp. I set the FCD at 1 1/2 turns, which actually gives the beginning of a roll crimp. Indents the bullet jacket slightly. If I go back to regular heavy crimp at 1 turn, velocities drop about 50fps, and the fps spreads double. Still a great load, but nothing like the one with the very heavy crimp.

CZ57
June 9, 2007, 10:59 PM
Outside of being a German Beer man, rather than a Bourbon man, I like your take on this, completely! #9 is likely to be better with the lighter weights because most shooters will come come closer to building hi-pressure loads where #9 will excel. That level of pressure is not required for the 180s; not 1300 FPS from an autoloading pistol, anyway. This is the kind of performance you'll see from guys trying to push 180 gr. JHPs from 26 oz. pistols using IMR 800-X that is less than ideal for building full pressure 10mm loads where ballistic uniformity is paramount. Someone says different, watch them shoot a 180 gr. load that achieves 1300 FPS in an autoloader. The 1006 is one of the heavier 10mm autos ever made, so imagine what guys are really doing with pistols that weigh 1/2, or 1 pound less.

Welcome to the forum, btw! And further welcome to another .41 magnum shooter. More good news: #9 is about the best full pressure powder I have used for either the .41 or .357 Magnum. For loads that are 150 FPS, or so slower, #7 can be exceptional in accuracy, but many shooters are using slower magnum powders; slower than #9 to build loads that #7 will equal in velocity. #7 was formulated for full pressure 9mm, and few are better, but even then, full pressure means different things to different people. 35,700 CUP was the pressure target until around 1990, or the present day 38,500 PSI designated by SAAMI as +P. Most 9mm shooters are looking for loads that develop something around minor power factor. Recoil sensitivity is about the most overlooked topic I see on gun forums.

The hi-end performance with #9 and 155 gr. bullets in 10mm is more performance than what is logically applicable to anything other than whitetail deer. I will get some flack, but I'm a firm believer that most conventional JHPs for self defense cartridges are designed to work at an optimum of 500 - 550 Ft/Lbs of kinetic energy. With a 155 gr. JHP, that's 1264 FPS (550 Ft/Lbs), and achievable from a .40 S&W with the correct powder. Loading down, is and always has been the key to turning the 10mm into the superb defense cartridge it could have always been, but a max charge of #9 takes a 155 to over 1400 FPS. Maybe ideal for some hunting situations, but far short of what some gun rag writers claimed: .41 magnum power from an autoloader, where #9 will push a 170 gr. Sierra JHC to around 1700 FPS from a 7 1/2" Ruger Redhawk. Misapplication! The 10mm is still capable of producing more energy than a +P .45 ACP, and before we get into a debate on momentum, it might be best to have an understanding of what sectional density is all about.

The 180 gr. JHP at 550 ft/lbs of KE? It takes only 1173 FPS, which is more energy than a +P .45 ACP 185 gr. factory JHP will achieve. Push it to 1300 FPS and it will develop 676 Ft/Lbs and 234 Power Factor, and you ain't gonna find any .45 ACP factory load that equals that, +P, or + Kryptonite. Long story, not quite so short, you don't need #9 to develop 1173 FPS with a 180 gr. JHP in 10mm. #7 will be at a more optimum pressure level, and what it is designed to operate at, hence, better performance!;)

jimbeam
June 9, 2007, 11:07 PM
Bluedot I have not used, I was under the assumption that the reported flash was burning powder coming out the barrel, going to the problem of uneven pressure, but I sure could be wrong. Longshot sure seems consistent in the 610 revolver, wonder if that holds up in an auto.

jimbeam
June 9, 2007, 11:28 PM
CZ-57, thanks for the welcome. I think you have AA no. 9 exactly pegged. I think what you are stating, in a round about way, is that if you want .41 mag perfomance, use a .41. This is only the 2nd auto {1006} that I ever owned, the first being one of the first .41 Desert Eagles in this country. Now that I am retired, I find the exercise from chasing empties from the 1006 to be very therapeutic.

CZ57
June 9, 2007, 11:28 PM
From the earliest days of handloading the 10mm, two powders established themselves as "go to" powders: Blue Dot and AA#7. Longshot is primarily a magnum shotgun propellant that is capable of excellent performance in 10mm, and the .40 S&W, but I think it would be hard pressed to exceed #7 for what you'll find as comfortable recoil in an autoloader. As far as the 610, it's as heavy as the 657 if the barrels are the same length as they are both N-Frame Smiths. Blue Dot will work better when pushed to higher pressure, but it will always flash brightly as does Power Pistol. Any doubts, shoot some loads at night. Flamethrower bright!;)

wally
June 9, 2007, 11:52 PM
I'm pleased with 10.0gr Blue Dot and 180gr bullets. Shoot about the same as the Double Tap 180gr "practice loads" with perhaps a bit more flash and blast, but if that wasn't a good thing why bother with the 10mm :)

I'm going to try the next lower volume in my Lee Auto disk next time which measured 9.4gr to see if it helps me find a higher percentage of the brass. I'm already using the strongest recoil springs Wolff has (Colt Delta Elite and EAA Witness) and am also using the EGW "flat bottom" firing pin retainer in the Delta Elite. I lose less brass with the DE than the EAA, but still way higher than I like and it'll be getting worse as the summer weeds blossom.

While Unique is indeed a versatile powder and by far what I use the most, its just a bit too fast for the full house magnum effect (10mm is pretty close to the same performance as .41 magnum when loaded to its full intent, although the .41mag can use significantly heavier bullets). What's the point of shooting a magnum if it don't make everyone else at the range look over to see what you are shooting? :)

--wally.

jimbeam
June 10, 2007, 12:19 AM
Wally, not to change the subject, but do you notice that empties loaded with different powders end up in different spots? Unique loaded shells end up in back of me, while AA No. 7 and 9 are on my direct right. I am spending way too much time with this pistol.

wally
June 10, 2007, 01:10 AM
Can't really say I've noticed any difference with the powder, but certainly with the power level. Both my 10mm guns eject very violently and the empties go everywhere but close by. Probably good for reliability, but not so good for reloaders. Lighter loads just don't throw the brass so far, but then might as well just shoot a .40S&W where free brass litters the ground at many ranges if you don't want the full power 10mm.

--wally.

the pistolero
June 10, 2007, 08:30 AM
Welcome, from another 10mm reloader. So far the only combo I've tried is 155-grainers with AA#9 and it's quite accurate in my Kimber Stainless Target II -- and very controllable, even at 1370 fps and 645 lb-ft. The only problem I've had so far is half my brass goes into low-earth orbit, while the other half ends up in the next county. :D

redneck2
June 10, 2007, 09:11 AM
Jeez, I thought I was the only one that was nuts about the brass. I have maybe 600-800 brand new empty Starline, but I haven't shot my G20 or DE in at least a year because I can't stand the thought of losing brand new brass. I end up using my Ruger Bisley 45 Colt so I can pull them out instead of doing the dirt crawl.

jimbeam
June 10, 2007, 11:56 AM
Pistolero, thanks for the welcome. How do you like the Kimber, evidently it is accurate. Been thinking of that or a Dan Wesson Pointman, doing some research at the time. Regarding redneck2's brass problem, not using a gun because of losing brass is like not using a car because of burning gas. Hey, that ryhmes. Kidding aside, the German in me thinks every 10mm empty is a quarter flying through the air. I guess that is the benefit of revolvers.

the pistolero
June 10, 2007, 03:03 PM
How do you like the Kimber, evidently it is accurate. Been thinking of that or a Dan Wesson Pointman, doing some research at the time.

I love it. Accurate, feels great, shoots like a dream (it's a 1911, would you expect any different? :D) and eats everything I feed it. Speaking of Dan Wesson, the Razorback will likely be my next 10mm pistol. Not having to chase the brass all over God's creation would be great, but as far as a wheelgun goes I'd rather have a .357 or .41 Mag.

critter
June 10, 2007, 06:52 PM
I have a Colt Delta Elite. I hear you guys as mine is a mega-brass flinger! It throws brass further than ANY autoloader I have ever shot and in more directions. This is the ONLY time I have ever considered one of those little brass catcher baggie gadgets that I've seen advertised. Don't know though as mine might just through the brass THROUGH the lil baggie thingie.

Great gun and a fun round, but shagging brass is a bummer.

nitesite
June 10, 2007, 10:06 PM
So how far do Kimbers and Deltas eject a 10mm case?

My Glock29 flings cases at 3:30-4:00 and about eight feet.

When I shoot in my yard I lay out a king-sized bedsheet held down at the corners. It catches them all if I stand next to it.

grendelbane
June 10, 2007, 10:18 PM
A small radius firing pin stop from EGW does much to reduce the slide velocity, and may make your 10mm a bit less extreme about its ejection habits.

I have one in my Delta Elite, and I can heartilly recommend it.

Clark
June 10, 2007, 10:38 PM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


I worked up in a stock Glock 20 with 180 gr AA#9 and got bulges at 111% charge
I worked up in a stock Glock 20 with 180 gr LONGSHOT and got bulges at 103% charge
I worked up in at Glock 20 w/ Barsto Barrel 180 gr LONGSHOT and got bulges at 139% charge
I worked up in at stock Glock 20 180 gr 800X and got bulges at 126% charge
I worked up in at Glock 20 w/ Barsto Barrel 180 gr 800X and got NO bulges at 172% charge case full
I worked up in at Glock 20 w/ Barsto Barrel 200 gr Blue Dot and got NO bulges at 149% charge case full
I worked up in at Glock 20 w/ Barsto Barrel 200 gr 800X and got bulges at 182% charge

What does it all mean?
More power from 800X with heavy bullets, but must double compress and weigh each charge.
More power from 40 S&W becuase small primer pocket.

jeepmor
June 11, 2007, 03:44 AM
I find the exercise from chasing empties from the 1006 to be very therapeutic.

10mm tossing brass is normal as you know. As for the guy with the G29 that keeps it on a King size sheet, I venture to guess that the rest of us are jealous. I am.

From the brass chasing perspective, I always make sure to shoot my witness first, shag for brass, then shoot my other pistols and again shag for brass. I got 100% recovery, once. Beyond that, I'm pretty happy to get 80%, but usually more around 50% because the public gravel pit range I shoot at is utterly littered with brass of all kinds. I do waste a couple rounds just so I can watch about where the brass lands to increase my recovery percentages.

I have used Blue Dot with good success, but lacking a chronometer, I have no details to share. I don't shoot it off a sandbag often, so accuracy is about as good as I am, which is nothing to write home about. But I can easily keep it on the paper, most of the time in the rings if I concentrate. Usually about a fist sized group, again, nothing to boast about here.

The boom factor is quite pleasing with this round for an auto and I've had several "wow, what was that" remarks at said gravel pit.

BTW, my pistol is a Witness with an 18lb spring. I had functional issues with the heavier springs and the lighter ones offered better reliability. It gives me a lot of 3 point jams. I suspect I'll be working on it again soon, but that's for another day. Currently in home improvement mode and this is a backburner project I'm looking forward to. :)

warriorsociologist
June 11, 2007, 04:36 AM
Not sure if you have seen this yet, but here was one of my projects a little while back:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=206247&highlight=10mm+threads


Also, take a look here for more load info:

http://glocktalk.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=67

Lennyjoe
June 12, 2007, 12:54 PM
I agree with 800X for mega power loads. That powder can push a 200gr bullet.

As with any reloads, watch for warning signs.

jimbeam
June 12, 2007, 05:08 PM
Boy, everyone has a favorite powder, 800-x really seems to have a loyal group of loaders. I picked up one of those small "one calliber" loading manuals, and interestingly in the Hornady part of the book they state "Best overall results were obtained with AA No.7 in our testing." Now, I would think they are impartial to the type of propellant that performs the best with their own brand of bullets. That said, they do not state if "best results" mean best velocity or best accuracy. Power does count for a lot in the equation, but if you cannot hit what you shoot at, it doesn't mean much, not for me anyway. Thanks for all the input. JB

the pistolero
June 12, 2007, 09:55 PM
Everyone says 800X is the cat's meow for 10mm. They also say it doesn't meter worth a crap, though, which is why I went for AA#9 instead. I've been very happy with it too, both for the way it meters and the velocity & accuracy I get with it even with the minimum loads. May be more than what I'd need for a defensive application, but it sure is fun to shoot. :D
I was thinking that anything over about 1200 fps would be hard to get with the .40, even with the 155-grain bullet, but then I could be wrong. Accurate lists their minimum load with No. 9 and the 10mm as rated at 1244 fps, but I was driving them out about 100 fps faster with that same load.

gandog56
June 13, 2007, 09:42 AM
I've stumbled onto a pretty accurate load using Precision Bullet 180 grainers and AA #9. Can't give the powder load since I'm out of town right now.

Lennyjoe
June 13, 2007, 01:01 PM
Back in 05 I was doing some experimenting with the 10MM and here's what I came up with;

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


Numbers for the loads shot out of my S&W 1006;

9 shot string average at 85 degrees temp sunny day.

Power Pistol 7.3gr and 200gr XTP in mixed brass and WLP primers = 1043 fps

Power Pistol 8.0gr and 200gr XTP in mixed brass and WLP primers = 1127 fps

AA #9 13.5gr and 200gr XTP in mixed brass, WLP primers = 1191 fps

AA #9 14.5gr and 200gr Speer TMJ, mixed brass, WLP primers = 1195 fps

Blue Dot 9.5gr and 180gr XTP in mixed brass and WLP primers = 1140

Blue Dot 10.0gr and 180gr XTP in mixed brass and WLP primers = 1175 fps

Blue Dot 10.5gr and 180gr XTP in mixed brass and WLP primers = 1225 fps

HS-6 9.1gr and 180gr XTP in mixed brass and WLP primers = 1118 fps

And the 800X loads;

First load was 8.6gr of 800X under 180gr Hornady XTP.
9 shot string averaged 1167 fps and 544 ft lbs of energy.

Second load was 9.6gr of 800X under the same bullet.
9 shot string averaged 1315 fps and 691 ft lbs of energy.

Third load was 10.6gr of 800X under the same bullet.
9 shot string averaged 1396 fps and 779 ft lbs of energy

The last load (10.6) of 800X stretched and split some brass which showed that it was too much to handle. I wont go above 9.5gr of 800X.

Some loads may be above max load limits and may harm your weapon. Start at the minimum load and work your way up.

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