Britain: First your guns, then your sovereignty


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Thin Black Line
June 10, 2007, 08:29 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/10/nbrown110.xml

Keep in mind that Blair has resigned and will leave office by the end of
this month.

Dilemma for Brown as Blair plans EU deal

By Patrick Hennessy and Melissa Kite, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 12:55am BST 10/06/2007

Labour has been plunged into a bruising referendum row after Tony Blair secretly agreed the blueprint for a new European treaty - presenting Gordon Brown, the prime minister-in-waiting, with his first big dilemma.

Less than three weeks before he relinquishes power, Mr Blair held talks on the framework for the treaty, an updated version of the failed European Union constitution, with Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president.

The controversial manoeuvre, at the G8 summit in Germany, came despite a promise to MPs by Margaret Beckett, the Foreign Secretary, that "nothing you could really call negotiations" had taken place.

As MPs protested that the new treaty would include many measures contained in the EU constitution that was shelved after being voted down by the French and Dutch electorates in 2005, David Cameron led calls for a fresh referendum.

The Conservative leader told The Sunday Telegraph: "Any treaty that is about the transfer of powers to the EU must be put to the country in a referendum."

Labour MPs joined the referendum call and said that the row over the new treaty would be the first big test of Mr Brown's premiership, which will begin days after Mr Blair attends a crucial EU summit in Brussels in a fortnight. One said: "It's decision time for Gordon."

In 2004, Mr Blair promised there would be a referendum in Britain on the original EU constitution in an about-turn following months of government insistence that no public vote was necessary.

He declared: "Let the people have the final say."

But the Prime Minister was rescued from almost certain defeat by "No" votes in both France and Holland a year later, causing the constitution to be sidelined and British referendum plans to be postponed.

Later this month, however, in what will be his last big diplomatic gesture before -stepping down, Mr Blair will sign Britain up to the new treaty, which is designed to increase the EU's power and to enact many of the proposals originally planned for the constitution.

It will establish a permanent EU president, with a 2-year term of office, who is likely to be a former head of government from an EU country. Opponents fear this will pave the way for future presidents to be directly elected by voters in member states.

The treaty will also set up a new EU "foreign minister" with the power to represent member states on key international bodies such as the United Nations Security Council.

Also included will be a big shake-up of the voting system among member states which, it is estimated, will cut Britain's ability to "block" unwanted legislation by about 30 per cent. This could end the opt-out from the EU working-time directive, for example, as well as other proposals objected to by Britain, including granting more rights to criminal suspects.

The treaty, the brainchild of Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, may also contain moves to give the European Court of Justice a bigger say over British criminal law.

A leaked letter from Mrs Merkel revealed last month that the treaty would have much the same "legal substance" as the failed constitution, but that it would make "presentational changes" and use "different terminology".

Despite Mrs Beckett's assurance to MPs, Mr Sarkozy declared at the end of last week's G8 summit in Heiligendamm: "Tony Blair and I have just agreed on what might be the framework for a simplified treaty. That is quite something."

Mr Blair and other ministers have insisted that a referendum is not needed this time round because they claim the new treaty is different from the proposed constitution.

Frank Field, the former social security minister, said: "One of the more popular things Tony Blair did was promising a referendum. Going back on that is against all the rhetoric of a government which says it wants to reconnect with a disillusioned if not hostile electorate.

"Now there is a real requirement to get approval for this and he [Mr Brown] will be the prime minister when that happens. It is decision time for Gordon."

Mr Brown is understood to be "concerned" about the progress of the negotiations and to be insisting that Britain has an opt-out from any proposal to resurrect the constitution's "fundamental charter for human rights".

He also strongly opposes any threat to Britain's sovereignty in justice, home affairs and social security legislation.

Neil O'Brien, the director of the Open Europe think-tank, said: "The Government plan to break their promise to hold a referendum. They think that voters will be fooled just because they've changed the name of the constitution. They are treating us like idiots. So much for Brown's promise to listen to the public."

Leading Tories rallied round Mr Cameron's call for a vote. Stuart Wheeler, one of the party's biggest donors, said: "Let's have a referendum. That is absolutely right. I wish the Conservatives would be more Eurosceptic."

John Redwood, the former cabinet minister and the chairman of the Tories' economic competitiveness commission, said: "Gordon Brown will play the angry Eurosceptic and shrug his shoulders. He ought to veto it."

A Downing Street spokesman confirmed: "The Prime Minister and President Sarkozy did discuss the EU Treaty. There is broad agreement in the sense that they both think that any treaty must be an amending one rather than a constitutional treaty."


Looks like everything is going according to schedule.....:evil:

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matt87
June 10, 2007, 09:40 AM
Blair is determined to have a positive legacy. oBVIOUSLY THIS WILL BE IT ;)

G36-UK
June 10, 2007, 02:32 PM
Why not let England join the EU, and Scotland can become the "51st State"?

Hell, if we join America, we'd finally get sensible gun laws.

SoCalShooter
June 10, 2007, 03:52 PM
Its obvious that the folks in those countries do not want to be sovereign anymore, I wonder how this will fair for us, no NAU and we should reject their political refugees! Don't like it tell'em to have a revolution and set things straight. This is the first time I have seen this article.


^ we'll take the SCOTSMAN and the IRISH but we don't want the ENGLISH!!! We kicked them out once and they can stay out!! :)

Lucky
June 10, 2007, 05:23 PM
I think it's important to remember that Merkel was not just a 'reluctant' commie, but achieved being head of a Communist Party Youth Wing, has been a communist since she stopped sucking teet, and will be a devoted Communist until the day she dies.

The ****ing Soviets, they lost the war but their 5th columns never got the memo to stop:(


G36 if Scotland would ever revolt, and if it's not a communist revolution, you can bet that there will be a lot of help coming from Canada. Maybe not from the gov't, but there'd be help coming nonetheless.

McCall911
June 10, 2007, 05:42 PM
and Scotland can become the "51st State"?

Works for me! :D

Mk VII
June 10, 2007, 06:45 PM
The Jocks are more likely to go communist than join you lot.

Titan6
June 10, 2007, 07:23 PM
Figure they fought all those big wars to remain free and now they will go without a fight. Hey, if that is what they wanted why did we keep sending all those soldiers over there to die in those wars?

McCall911
June 10, 2007, 08:06 PM
The Jocks are more likely to go communist than join you lot.

Ah, we've got that covered too. They can always vote Democratic.

;)

(Sorry, Dems. Just kiddin!)

Hacker15E
June 10, 2007, 08:13 PM
Why not let England join the EU, and Scotland can become the "51st State"?

As if the Scottish nationalists didn't have enough on their plate.

At least I could go live in Edinburgh and not be an "expat".

Mk VII
June 10, 2007, 08:51 PM
Your ever-so-slightly-left-of-centre-with-a-teeny-little-social-conscience Democratic party isn't nearly left-wing enough for them.

Ratzinger_p38
June 10, 2007, 09:14 PM
Your ever-so-slightly-left-of-centre-with-a-teeny-little-social-conscience Democratic party isn't nearly left-wing enough for them.

Yeah but they arent all like that. I am a Scottish-American, and a member of the "Libertarian-right" I am supportive of Scottish independence also. I have several right of center friends in Scotland who are also supportive of it. It is not a universally left wing thing.

jselvy
June 10, 2007, 09:47 PM
Since the SNP won the last election here in Scotland, They should get off their collective arses and declare independence from the Union.
I think that would be most appropriate as we are on the 300th anniversary of the largest con-job in history (the 1707 Act of Union).

Jefferson

jpk1md
June 10, 2007, 11:09 PM
Turned on NPR while stuck in traffic and there was some program on that was interviewing people from Hungary, Check Rep and one other newer EU Members and I was mortified when one of them stated that it was necessary for them to give up their sovereignty to the EU for "The Greater Good".....:fire::fire:

Frankly I'm stilled stunned and horrified by this.

Zedicus
June 11, 2007, 01:45 AM
The UK is

http://fi.edu/guide/stevenson/Image11.jpg

If you live there I recommend you get out while you can.

Thin Black Line
June 11, 2007, 09:47 AM
Why not let England join the EU, and Scotland can become the "51st State"?

Hell, if we join America, we'd finally get sensible gun laws.


LOL, you could always come here like my Scots-Irish ancestors did....:)

I thought Scotland was at least "autonomous" or something by now. Hmmm.
Interesting thought on a new "state" joining the United States. Would give
some of us more passport free options for travel, too. So how's the hunting
there?

LightningJoe
June 12, 2007, 02:54 AM
Your ever-so-slightly-left-of-centre-with-a-teeny-little-social-conscience Democratic party isn't nearly left-wing enough for them.


You guys got people worse than the Dems? Make a rickety boat out of inner tubes, push it out into the ocean, and start rowing.

McCall911
June 12, 2007, 09:12 AM
Your ever-so-slightly-left-of-centre-with-a-teeny-little-social-conscience Democratic party isn't nearly left-wing enough for them.

Now that is scary. :eek:

Some people, especially in the West, haven't got the message yet that communism has failed and has to be propped up with tyranny. Truly scary.

LawBot5000
June 12, 2007, 09:16 AM
I'm worried that if we annex Scotland there will be too much illegal immigration from south of the border.

jcoiii
June 12, 2007, 04:35 PM
Frank Field, the former social security minister, said: "One of the more popular things Tony Blair did was promising a referendum. Going back on that is against all the rhetoric of a government which says it wants to reconnect with a disillusioned if not hostile electorate.

Hmm. Sounds to me like the british government is all for the EU while the british people are not....

Mongo the Mutterer
June 12, 2007, 04:42 PM
Why not let England join the EU, and Scotland can become the "51st State"?

We would love to have you freedom loving Scots... Except for........








Haggis!:evil:

Don Gwinn
June 12, 2007, 05:02 PM
The NPR program was Travel with Rick Steves. He was talking to travel guides from "new Europe."

One of the guides made the point that the compromises and negotiations being made to form the E.U. are a lot like what the various states went through in forming the United States of America. It's not a bad point.

LightningJoe
June 13, 2007, 02:57 AM
One of the guides made the point that the compromises and negotiations being made to form the E.U. are a lot like what the various states went through in forming the United States of America.


Oh, and that worked out great. Until around 1860.

LAK
June 13, 2007, 12:37 PM
Oh yes - that 1950s "European Common Market" that was "just about trade" ;)

The one that was intended as a political union - in the words of not-so-shy Romano Prodi - from the beginning.

----------------------------------------

http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

ilcylic
June 13, 2007, 12:56 PM
I bet Justin Sullivan would have a great big laugh if Scotland became the 51st state. :D

Me, I'm all for it. I love ironic humor.

Don't be so sure you'd get sane gun laws, though. Just look at our other island state to see how badly things can go, even in the good ol' USA.

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