SBS with a rifle barrel


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mp510
June 10, 2007, 02:23 PM
I am going to remanufacture a single shot break barrel as a short barrel shotgun on a Form 1. My shotgun (a Rossi) came with a shotgun and a .22 barrel from the factory. On the DPS 3 (state registration form) under description it was listed as a combo-gun. Of course, as the Dick's salesman said, the state isn't as anal-retentive as the ATF.

I know that true combo guns (drillings with a barrel over 12" or something like that) can be registered as AOW's. I'm pretty sure that I can't register this as an AOW.

So, If it's registered as an SBS, can I still use it with the rifle barrel?

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kd7nqb
June 10, 2007, 03:25 PM
In the twisted ways of the ATF you may have to consider it two separate guns. If your shotgun barrel is two short it needs to be registered as a SBS if your rifle barrel is short then its a SBR too.

I am no expert but its a guess.

Sonic
June 11, 2007, 03:22 AM
You wouldn't have to do anything different as long as the rifle barrel is long enough that the firearm would not qualify as a short barreled rifle with it installed. If the rifle barrel is short enough that the firearm would also qualify as a short barreled rifle with this rifle barrel installed, then you just list this detail on the ATF form, and list the firearm as an SBS/SBR instead of as an SBS. In other words, on ATF Form 1 in the description section (4), you would just print 'short barreled shotgun/rifle' or 'short barreled rifle/shotgun' in box 4c, and then in box 4d you would print both the gauge of the shotgun barrel and the calibre of the rifle barrel. In any case you would only need to do, and could only do, a single NFA registration, because for any particular receiver (the only part the ATF considers to be the firearm) the ATF only allows one NFA registration at a time. For example an M-16 with a 10 inch barrel could only be registered as a machinegun, it could not also be registered as a short barreled rifle.

The main point is that if you are registering a firearm as an NFA weapon, and plan to use it as a multi-cartridge platform, it is a good idea to list all the calibers you plan to shoot out of it on the ATF form. Of course you don't have to worry about listing calibers you think you might someday shoot from the firearm. Even the ATF doesn't expect gunowners to be psychics who can see into their own future (the ATF just expects gun owners to be psychic enough to see all future ATF rulings:neener:).

You could probably also register this firearm as either just a short barreled rifle or as just a short barreled shotgun, and then list a single caliber/gauge in box 4d, since in either case you are listing correct description information for the firearm. However, in this particular situation there is no disadvantage in providing the additional information on the ATF form, while there is a chance (however slim) the ATF might call foul if you don't provide all the caliber/gauge information you were aware of at the time you filled out the form. Of course unless they read this exact post there isn't anyway the ATF would know better, but again there is no disadvantage in providing the additional information, so you might as well.

There is an example at www.titleii.com of a ATF form filled out in 1976 for a similar situation. In this case it was a transfer between a gunowner and a class 3 dealer, so it is Form 4 rather than a Form 1, but the description sections are identical in both forms. It is at:
http://www.titleii.com/BardwellOLD/pdf/4_1_75.pdf


This particular example is also interesting because the firearm in question was an old Marble Arms combination gun, and it was transferred/registered as a short barreled rifle/shotgun rather than as an AOW, even though AOWs are what combination guns are usually transferred/registered as.

wdlsguy
June 11, 2007, 08:51 AM
Sonic, I looked at the Form 4 you mentioned above. Although the firearm was listed as a short barreled rifle/shotgun, a $5 tax stamp was affixed, indicating that BATFE transferred it as an AOW.

mp510, you might want to give the NFA Branch a call at (304) 616-4500.

Sonic
June 11, 2007, 02:47 PM
WDLSGUY, thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't caught that, and of course it goes without saying that it is always a good idea to check with the ATF (BTW, I corrected a typeo in my original post, I said 'Form 2' a couple times, when it should have been 'Form 1'.)

The main point is still the same though, it is almost always a good idea to list all the relevant information you have available at the time you fill out the ATF form, but make sure it is specific. List the particular calibers and gauges in the description section of the form, but don't use 'multi-caliber' or 'multi-gauge' or some general term like that, because this can cause the ATF to reject the form. I have read of this on other gun forums, where someone uses a general term like 'multi caliber' in the description section (like for an AR-15 receiver that the applicant planned to use different caliber short barreled uppers on), and sometimes the form is accepted, while other times it gets rejected.

mp510
June 11, 2007, 09:17 PM
The main point is that if you are registering a firearm as an NFA weapon, and plan to use it as a multi-cartridge platform, it is a good idea to list all the calibers you plan to shoot out of it on the ATF form.
I have heard numerous people who have tried to register AR's with a laundry list of uppers (say 5.56, 9x19, 10mm, .45 ACP) get their Form 1's kicked back and told to list 1 caliber. ATF has been getting a little anal retentive about the word specify lately. Same with barrel length- you can't just say "less than 16 (or 18) inches" anymore. You can still reconfigure the weapon- just one caliber appears on the form 1 at a time.

mp510, you might want to give the NFA Branch a call at (304) 616-4500. I'm going to do that tomorrow. I was hoping somebody here had registered a TC Encore or something in the past, and had experience with this.

The marbles game getter- which is a drilling like combo gun is an AOW.

Prince Yamato
June 11, 2007, 09:35 PM
Aren't you just supposed to list the principal configuration on the form? Kind of like if you bought a regular title 1 weapon. The serial number it comes with, if traced to the factory would say, "that gun was originally an (m16a1 with 20 inch barrel)" No mind if you now had it in M4 configuration. I often find that we all try to think too hard for a lot of these things. I think to the BATF it's more important that they know you have an NFA item than what configuration you currently have it in.

ServiceSoon
June 11, 2007, 10:08 PM
You might find this (http://ar15.com/content/legal/nfafaq.html#sbr) of interest.

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