[Bigjake]

This happened a little earlier tonight,

I'm out on my land hunting woodchuck. its by a fairly busy corner, but its township land so all is good, and i'm breaking no laws whatsoever. While looking through binoculars, i hear doors slam behind me, and turn to see 2 cops walking down the hill towards me. i just about wet myself ( my first encounter with the cops on these terms). they hit me up for my ID, and the older of the 2 asks me some basic questions while the other ( think barney fife) poked around without asking me. barney started getting really close to my gun and and gear, at which point i cleared my throat and said, " you mind?". he got pissy with me and did the little, " you should watch your mouth kid" thing (dispite having maybe 4-6 years on me). they ask to see my and what all was in it. i showed them the bag, which had nothing but ammo and a box of donuts ( no joke on the donuts, which pissed them off more). after a little more cop talk, they finaly left me in peace.

my question is, what are my rights in this situation? they had no warant to bother me with, i was commiting no crime, and i was on my own land. do i have to show them my ID? My gun? my bag? do i even have to let them on my land? (BTW, i had not fired my gun since ariving). i'm just iritated for the harassment over nothing, and want to know what i can do about it. any help you guys can offer would be great

thanks

[scottgun]

You have no rights, you have to do everything they tell you to do. Actually, the only right you do have is the right to remain silent, anything you say .....

[Mike Irwin]

Did you inform them that you were hunting on your own property?

[TheeBadOne]

Bigjake
Let them know how you feel. Make sure they understand you don't want them to protect your property and you don't expect them to check out people or vehicles that seem suspicious. Tell them you accept the risk of theft/burglary/vandalizm and are fine with it. You won't even call if it does happen as you will take care of that too.
>sarcasm<
:neener:

[Sarge]

to the city/county administrator and cc a copy to the prosecutor for that jurisdiction, explaining and emphasizing the fact that you were engaging in legal conduct on your own land, and exactly how you were treated- including their response to your objection to an unwarranted search. Ask for a written response.

[Thumper]

Sarge is right, especially about the written response.

[Steve in PA]

Define "fairly busy corner".........lots of vehicular traffic....people in the area, houses, etc????

Perhaps the LEOS were called for shots in the area or saw you walking with your rifle and wanted to make sure everything was ok.... that you weren't planning on being the next "sniper". You don't say which state your from.........did you have a hunting license on you (or any clothing that might give someone the idea you are hunting?)

They don't need a warrant to check on a problem. Have you had a problem in the past like this? You may be on your property but firing a weapon where you were may be causing a problem.

In a mere encounter.......no, you don't have to say anything to them.

If they are investigating something......yes, you have to provide ID.

As for the searching of your stuff.....not if its a mere encounter.

If you feel you were treated wrong....then tell someone.

[faustulus]

Without knowing the specifics.
ID is not required unless you are doing something that normally requires a license, like driving a car, fishing et cetera. They can ask, you may decline. You of course may tell them who you are. If they are on your property you have every right to question why they are there, and should do so. Shouldn't let them search anything without a warrent that spells out what they are looking for. Be polite, and don't let them goad you into being rude. If they ask you much more than your name tell them you would be glad to answer any questions they have as soon as you contact your lawyer. Remember most cops saddly take the attitude nowadays that it is 'us against them' as such we must also take the mindset.

[Bigjake]

Wow, lots of responce, thanks!

faustulus - thats good advice, but what can happen if i come off rude? can i tell them to leave my property? i was rather rude to them after i figured out the attitude was "guilty till proven innocent"

Steve in PA- ST rt and a county road, lot of traffic, my family's buisness on one side, a church, and 2 fields. houses around but not in the direction i was shooting. i'll post a pic later if anyone wants to see it. yup, i have had several encounters with them, you'd figure after so many times, they would just ignore me. i had no hunting liecence, but as far as i know, you don't need one to shoot varmit on your own property

theebadone- LOL

sarge- i plan to do all those things, and as soon as they left last night i called the department and raised heck about it.

[Oracle]

You could always file a harrassment complaint against those officers.

[Art Eatman]

Hey, look. In the reality of today's world, wouldn't you expect LEOs to at least check out somebody with a rifle who is near a busy road?

To me, the issue is more of behavior during the checking out. There's no need for an LEO to be rude or hostile, even if he's fully prepared to draw and shoot if it's deemed necessary.

I sometimes go varmint hunting at night in the far back country. Before doing so, I commonly call our local deputy--or tell him over coffee--that I'm going out. That way, he can reassure somebody calling in about it, and save many miles of bad road.

It doesn't hurt for you to politely make yourself known to local LEOs about your activities and location. Saves hassles for you and them. Heck, offer an invite to come along!

:), Art

[Bigjake]

well, the one was pretty cool about the whole thing, after we both chilled out a bit, shoot, had barney been a little more civil with me, i would've offered them donuts and to take a shot or 2.

i think from here out i'll call the locals when i shoot that corner, and hopefully avoid more annoyances.

[TarpleyG]

This post leads me to ask a question that I have wanted to ask and keep forgetting to do so.

A while back we had a problem on our cul-de-sac with a man and woman/girl "parking" in front of our house.

I called the PD the first time and the two left before the PD responded. I gave the officer the plate number and description of the car and the two individuals and explained that they had been there many times before and that I was concerned about thier activity being illegal (e.g. prostitution). He then asks for my name, my wife's name (who was inside at the time), and our DOB. I declined to give him my DOB.

Question is, why ask for our DOB? What business is it of the local PD when we were born unless it was to "run" our names for outstanding warrants. I cannot think of any other reason to ask for it.

Another question is does a routine encounter with a LEO justify enough probable cause to check for warrants for you? I wouldn't think so but I am not to up-to-speed on the FL laws.

GT

[TheeBadOne]

TarpleyG
Question is, why ask for our DOB?
It's for the report. When taking a complaint there are seveal reasons you want the reporting party/victim info.

1) so they don't get mixed up with someone else
2) so the police can prove they got a call for service (in case
the cops respond and end up making an arrest for what
they found. A tip from a known citizen gives the cops PC
to check for things they would not otherwise get to.

EX- DUI complaint called in to the police

If the person calling in is anonoymous the cop can not pull over the said car without observing DUI driving conduct.
If the person calling in gives their name/phone/address the tip is deamed to be reliable and the officer can stop the car to check out and see if the report is true.


EX- Loud music/party complaint

In my area you need a complainant to do anything unless there are so many vehicles outside it blocks traffic.

Police departments work hard to keep their records straight and that is why they ask for full info when taking or responding to a report.
Another question is does a routine encounter with a LEO justify enough probable cause to check for warrants for you?
Yes, a warrant check is not intrusive

All the best

[TarpleyG]

Makes sense. They LEO that I talked to was a nice enough guy, I just found it strange to ask about DOB for something like that.

GT

[GinSlinger]

I just wanted to chime in on the presentation of ID. I was detained once for not presenting my ID. I was walking home late one night (after I finished closing the bar, probably 2:30A), and was stoped by an officer who wanted to know where I was coming from/going to. He then asked if I had had anything to drink to which I responded in the negative, THEN he asks for my ID. I tell him that since he wasn't investigating a crime (in that I was on a lit sidewalk and not intoxicated) I would not show him my ID (was worried that I may have had a warrant for a ticket and I had to open the bar up in the morning...couldn't afford to go to jail overnight). Before I knew it he was coming at me. It took a lot to resist striking back when he spun me around and cuffed me. He took my wallet and placed me in the back of the car. Ran my ID, and came back to ask me why I didn't just show him my ID since I didn't have any warrants. I told him that I didn't think he NEEDED to see it. Anyway, long story short (as explained to me by a lawyer here in town) while you don't have to show a LEO an ID if they don't have PC, by not showing your ID you generate PC. URGH!

GinSlinger

[TarpleyG]

"Your papers, please!"

What a load of crap.

GT

[Matthew Courtney]

Tarpley,

The responding LEO may also run your rap sheet in order to assist him in evaluating how credible you are.

[TarpleyG]

Well, since I don't have any raps, I shouldn't have a sheet so I guess I am credible, right?

GT

[brownie0486]

Think "Threshold inquiry" gentlemen.

As an LE, I have the right in my state to see one walking at 2:30 am and stop and perform a "threshold inquiry" about your reason for being in that location and your actions at the time.

If I can show a reasonablness to my actions [ crime has been committted in that area repeatedly after dark, or any other number of scenarios ], I have the right to perform such inquiry of you. You are then obligated to provide ID when asked.

If you do not provide or refuse to provide ID when asked I may place you in the cruiser and detain you until such time as I am satisfied you are not up to no good by running a warrants check on you after "lifting" your wallet from your pocket.

As I have the right to "pat frisk" you looking for weapons dependant on your answering questions and demeanor to my inquiry[ which may lead me to believe I may be in jeopardy ] , when I take the wallet I will ultimately open same looking for any weapon that could be concealed there. This could be a razor blade tucked between two credit cards, or a small knife tucked in with the bills.

Guess what, I open the wallet and find your license. I need to ID you before I'm sure you are not wanted or a danger to me. I run the check, you come back clean and you are on your way.

You come back dirty, you can take the ride to the station.

Other states may not have the same rulings so your mileage may vary.

Brownie

[Pilgrim]

My best suggestion in handling these requests for identification is ask the officer if he is just curious, or is he conducting an investigatory stop.

If he is just curious, then what you have is a consensual encounter. You are free to talk to him or not depending on how you feel.

If he is conducting an investigatory stop, then the rules for such a stop were handed down by the U.S. Supreme Court in Terry v. Ohio. He has to have an articulable reasons why he suspects criminal activity has occurred or is about to occur and that you are somehow involved. In such situations the courts feel that you as a good citizen have a duty to provide the answers that will allow the officer to quickly conclude you are not involved in any criminal activity.

The courts will use the "totality of the circumstances" test to determine if a detention is reasonable. Mere presence in a "high crime" area alone is not enough. Mere association with known criminals is not enough. Just saying that the person looked suspicious is not enough. An officer has to explain all the circumstances he observed that caused the officer to focus his attention on the person detained as possibly being engaged in criminal activity.

So I recommend when you are asked for your identification, you politely ask if you are being detained and why. It lets the officer know you know what the rules are and puts him on notice he had better have a good reason for stopping you.

[ojibweindian]

All this protection. Wow, I feel so safe.

[Orthonym]

This is one of the reasons I try never to have my DL with me except when actually operating a motor vehicle on the public roads. It's not an identity card, it's just a LICENSE TO DRIVE!
BTW, if one is cited for driving without a license in FL the charge MUST be dismissed if he produces the license in court. (No, I'm not a lawyer, I do think that's what the statute plainly says.) That provision must date from back when Americans still felt insulted at having to produce "your papers, please".

[Ebbtide]

Brownie0486,

So in essence, you can do what you want. Thanks for being honest. Just curious, how often are the people "really" up to no good in those situations?

[spartacus2002]

Brownie,
according to your post, if there has been a crime committed, then without any corroborating information or identification, you can stop, frisk, and search any individual in the area.

If I cannot show my paperz, pleaz, then you detain me til we prove a negative, that I am NOT doing anything wrong?

If you are indeed a LEO, you scare me.

[Bigjake]

guilty till proven innocent again.....

[brownie0486]

Thems the rules in my state. I'm sworn to uphold the statutes and it has solved many crimes since instituted here years ago.

3am, you go by a stop and rob all night open joint, two men are loitering in the shadows around the corner of the store. The store has been robbed at night several times in the last year.

You don't think I should stop and ask them what they are doing at 3am in the shadows around the corner?

Whats scary is that you think I'm violating their rights somehow.

If I don't get straight answers and you are obviously evading the questions, would that clue you in they may be up to no good and then detain them until it's determined they have a legitimate reason for hanging there.

If you answer yes, that might be prudent, then do I have the right to pat frisk them for my own safety? The supreme court thinks so.

Whether it's right or wrong doesn't matter. I have a responsibility to uphold the laws and protect my person from unknowns who may pose a threat to me as they are written. If I didn't check them out and they then robbed the store an hour later you would be the first person to complain about me not doing my job. I saw them in a suspicious situation at an hour where that behavior [ hanging in the shadows around the corner at 3am ] would not be considered normal.

So, I'm scary for being prudent and following procedures set forth by the legislature, and just another d##khe%d that didn't do his job if I don't check it out.

Pray tell, what constitites suspicious behaviour?
Thats what the two are exhibiting at that hour of the morning in the shadows. Should LE check suspicious behaviour? Is that not prudent in attempting to deter crime by presence?

Damned if I do [ harrassing them? ] and damned if I don't [ just ride by and ignore the signals they are giving me ]according to you and others. So if I can't appease your sense of fair play either way what would you do?

Is that law abused? You bet. Anything that can be abused will be by someone out there. Does that mean I am abuser of that law? No it doesn't.

I actually only gave traffic tickets to those who did not know why I stopped them [or purported not to know why ]. If I stopped you I asked, excuse me [ maam, sir ], do you know why I stopped you? If I got a "Ya, I blew that stop sign" or "Yes sir, was speeding" I asked you to please be more careful next time, or please slow down. Didn't ask for a license and reg from them. If the ysaid no, they had no idea why I stopped them, they got the reason in writing.

Ya, I'm the real scary one out there for sure. After 26 years on the streets, you develop a sense withe people about their actions and intentions based on those actions.

When the last time you approached someone at 3am who may just want to kill you to escape because they have warrants on them and they are not going in?

Be diligent

Stay safe, go home at the end of the shift.

Brownie

[Bigjake]

What state do you hail from? just curious. So what your saying is that an LEO can come on to my property, when no criminal act has been commited, ask for my "papers", search my person and my stuff for concealed weapons and if he figures out a good enough story, can take me to jail for more harrassment? thats wrong. another question, i'm on my land, commiting no crime and while getting searched, the leo finds a razor in my wallet, knife in my boot and pistol in my jacket. these are all concealed weapons, right? and he can haul my butt in for them anywhere else, but, does that matter if i'm on my own land? if you say yes to this , the country is truely screwed.....

Edited to add this-
Brownie, none of the attitude i display in the above writing is directed at you, so please don't take personal offence, those are all honest questions too that would like answered if you could.

[brownie0486]

I don't go onto private property land without a complaint [ which by law I'm bound to respond to if one is called in and I'm dispatched].

If I am sent to your residence I'm not asking for ID, but I'll ask you to ID yourself as the land/homeowner and explain we recieved a complaint for blah blah blah.

If you are not the owner, is the owner present? If the owner comes out and vouches that you are there by invite, we have the complaint to deal with which may involve you or not.

Now here's the rub,
The call was about a suspicious person in the back of a home by a neighbor at 3 am. You tell me you are the owner when I find you in the back yard, just hanging out. Do you think I should verify your story that you are the owner? How do I do that? I ask you for some ID. I call the station and they tell me the property is listed to John Doe. You refuse to give me ID's of any kind and tell me to F$$k off and stop harrassing you.

You are now going to be detained, frisked for my safety and then probably put into the back of the cruiser. I find drugs on you, burglar tools, or any other number of contraband items while searching your person.

You get to visit the jail for awhile and be pictured and printed. The prints are run and we find you are not the land owner, you go to court tomorrow morning.

Or, I find you are the land owner and just had an attitude about my responding to a call at your property. I find the contraband as before but you are still under arrest.

Any problem so far? You could have produced the ID and satisfied my inquiry. No search, an explanation as to what got me to your back yard and I'm on my way. [ you are not suspicious on your own property to me ].

So an attitude with LE about requesting your ID got you arrested because I searched you and detained you. On the same page still here?

No, I can not enter property unless a complaint has been filed at that location. Nor do I, I could care less what you are doing, even something illegal. But if I get the call and respond, you would be advised to cooperate and not have an atttitude about my presence. I have to respond to complaints. You may not like it but thats how it goes here.

BTW--I'm Mass LE retired.

I don't understand why all the fuss about producing your ID on request. I can ask for it under the threashold inquiry or called to the scene with any number of players when I get there.

They recently [ in the last 4 years or so ] made it illegal for me to ask a passenger in your vehicle for ID in this state on a traffic stop. It was being abused by some to check for wants/warrants and they changed it.

I see it as being diligent in the performance of my duties and obey the laws as set forth. You may get irritated at the intrusion [ to you ], but why create more problems if you have nothing to hide or are not involved in a crime of some kind? It leads to suspicion on the officers part naturally.

I don't take offense to much, and am happy to answer what I can and can't do and can articulate very well the reasoning behind the actions. Of course it's abused to an extent but I didn't play that way.

On the other hand, if I'm being fair and polite and you get beligerant at my presence, it sets the tone for my atttitude to change some as well.

I certainly have seen some of the boys bend/break the rules of engagement, but not with me there at the scene, as I would not allow it for a few reasons.
The first being I don't have the authority to do something and the second is that as my partner you are jeopardizing my career and yours. I don't really care about yours if you are like that but I would not allow myself sucked into the trapping of your actions in front of me either where I'll answer questions later. They knew not to play around me, I didn't take the job as a game or us vs. them on the streets.
Brownie

[Matthew Courtney]

Brownie0486,

Very informational post. Thank-you.

I'm sometimes a night owl. I go swimming, trim bushes, plan new landscaping projects, etc. in the middle of the night. I have I question, because I almost never carry my wallet when I'm on my own property. What happens if you stop me, ask for ID and I say that I need to go inside to get it? I am not refusing to give it to you, I just don't have it on me. And, no, you cannot come in with me.

[brownie0486]

I'm sort of a nightowl myself, or was when in that capacity.

If you were swimming, I'd probably ask you if you were the owner or guest at the house.

Dependant on your dispositon at my presence and the complaint I responded to, I may ask you for ID. If I did I'd wait on the porch/deck, whatever until you retrieved it for me. I would not expect the person to have ID with swim trunks on, I know I would not have mine with me in the same situation, wouldn't expect that from you either.

If you were digging up shrubs, or planting them which could look like you were digging them up I would want to see ID. In the house, no problem, you can go get it. Course if I see you walk into the house casually and you look like you know your way around I'm content to settle for the doorway and wait.

You could be stealing the bushes from your neighbor, if that were the case I doubt you'd be walking into that home to get a license. Most of it is common sense and observsational skills developed from dealing with citizens daily/nightly.

I forgot to mention, and the other lE's may have picked up on the absence of this but I can enter a private property if exigent circumstances seem to exist. Now all that means is that if I feel I have cause to believe a bodily injury or death is imminent on the property or in the house I may enter without a warrant.

Scenario of exigent circumstances. I am driving by a home in the summer with my windows down. I pass a home and hear screaming, high wailing sounds like someone is being killed or seriously injured. I stop and approach, I hear a woman yell "No, don't kill me" or I hear a male say "I'm going to cut you good". I can then enter under that ruling as I fear a death or great bodily injury may be the result if I do not act and instead wait for a warrant to enter.

If you use a little common sense and act prudently with a positive attitude towards others I have found you get the respect back in kind most of the time. Ya I knew cops who actually escalated the problem by their tone of voice at the scene. Not my type of cop unless the attitude is warranted.

My attiude remained pleasant until they gave me a reason to be otherwise, to the point I took more from some than most would as I had the confidence not to be threatened until I actually was threatened verbally or physically.

I took it as a job, followed the rules and knew why I wore the uniform [ to maintain the peace, enforce the laws and help people at the same time ].

One example though there are many of couse over the career. Drunk walking home at 2 am in the middle of a darkened road. He was apologetic for being in the road, left his car at the bar as he was drunk, so I get him in and take him home[ right down the street].

Wants me not to pull in the yard as his mother will see the cruiser if she is up. I drop him two houses away and wait for him to enter the driveway.

I don't drink and can't stand drunks. He got a break because he left his car there and did everyone a favor not taking it home and killing some innocent on the way. He did not have an attitude. Though he was drunk, he was smart enough to not drive, I thought that was commendable and helped the kid out. It could have gone either way when I approached him, it was his call and he played the cards just right.

Would another officer do the same thing I did, maybe and maybe not. I don't answer for anyones actions except mine or guess what another is going to do.

The key to my career was always remain objective and keep the prejudices out of the equation. You were treated with respect until you showed me you did not deserve it. I require it from you and you get it from me. If I have done my part in being polite [ even if I have to arrest you or while arresting you], then we had no problem as long as you remained civil.

I listened to plenty about my postion as LE while arresting them. No problem, but if you resisted in the least with that attitude present you could possibly be injured which was not a good thing.

Some negative attitudes projected here toward LE's in general will only cause more problems. Painting me with the same brush as all their bad LE experiences and readings is not only unwarranted and offensive but furthers the us vs. them attitudes I see here much too often.

Brownie

[12-34hom]

Brownie, Welcome to THR.

12-34hom.

[brownie0486]

12-34hom:

Thanks, been here awhile now but appreciate your post.

Matthew Courtney: Thanks

Brownie

[ojibweindian]

Brownie

I wish all police were like you. Sadly, that's not the case.

[TheeBadOne]

Brownie, well said, again. http://www.thehighroad.org/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Matthew Courtney]

I do not remember ever beginning a project by moonlight, just planning them, but 99% of my yard work from May - October is done in swim trunks.

Right now its 83 degrees and 88% humidity @ 9:30 at night. The "feels like " temp is 92.

[Ex-Doc]

brownie0486- Can you be more descriptive when you use the term "contraband"? When I was in Army basic training that included Twinkies and Ding-Dongs. Basically, what's contraband on my private property vs. city street?

[Bigjake]

Brownie, excelent replys, i'm very impressed, and you are one of the handfull of LEOs that has my complete respect., still need an answer about the weapons thing though. say i do have the razor, knife and gun all on me concealed, my land, and you deem it nessesary to search me. you find these on my person, where does it go from there? its my land, cant i do that?

[brownie0486]

BigJake,
If the weapons are found on you it would depend on the laws governing those items in your district/state.

Knife in my state, no problem other than switch/auto; dirk, dagger, stilleto, which are against the law to carry here. On your property in your pocket, I have no issues with those items as well [ even though illegal to possess in public ]. You would be informed of same, no issue with razor blade without action.

Gun on private property in pocket. Depends if you are a known felon, you go with me. No issues on provate property unless I was called for shots fired, then we need to discuss the gun further and the outcome depends on your demeanor and answers.
May ask you if you have a permit for the gun and check it's serial number on the hotsheet and again that depends on a lot of things going on at the time.

Ex-Doc: Contraband restriction would be in the public domain not on private property unless the contraband was perhaps being used in my presence when I arrived, then we need to talk dependant on what your actions are on the property. Keeping in mind I was dispatched to field some type of complaint.

As an ex: If in your state you can not carry a fixed knife over 5 inches in blade length. You are using a 10" fixed to cut some brush. No problem with that, it's not in public and you are not endangering anyone with it's use and you are on your own property.

Now take that same scenario and you are in the front yard swinging it wildly about and ranting around scaring the neighbors. I arrive and see your actions. Unless you are of Indian descent and doing some type of "dance" I may have issues with your actions [ swinging the 10" knife around ]where it is inciting the public/neighbors. Again, when I approach you under these conditions, your actions will dictate my responses. If you are not out of your mind [ if I have any doubt you can go with me ], and you have a valid reason like training with the long knives like I do I may ask you to take it out back where others won't have need to fear the action. Or at the least to stop the action on the front lawn which brought me there and then a suggestion that may not be the place to be training if the neighbors are getting worried.

Thats with no attitude at my presence. Now change that to your having a bad hair day, you are angry I am there, who to hell do I think I am, you can do anything you want on your property. You keep swinging the knife and training. We have a problem. Thats me, I can deal with you and call for backup. Other officers may take it/feel you are threatening them with the knife or feel threatened at your continued actions and attitude.
They can react differently, may overreact in some cases or the outcome can be many diffferent options.

If I order you to put the knife down and you refuse, you will be going with me, eventually.
How we get you to go is up to you.

Now I get there and you are using that knife to kill cats hanging from potato sacks, you go with me for a few reasons. Who knows what charges follow.

As you can see, there are variables to each circumstance which dictate to me what my actions should be or in some cases has to be. We have "may" and "shall" laws here. Some things I have discretion in [ may ] and some are mandatory actions once certain criteria are met [shall ].

States vary, cops attitudes vary on different issues dependant on their particular experiences and circumstances and the laws/guidelines they follow.

It's not easy but it was rewarding for me to help people and take the BG's out of the equation when possible.

Twinkies, ya I remember that contraband myself, you brought back a few mems there sir.

Brownie

[Mr. James]

Brownie,

As BigJake, ojibwe, and TheeBadOne say, excellent posts.

...but why create more problems if you have nothing to hide or are not involved in a crime of some kind?

I was mounting my horse of high dudgeon until I read further.

Your posts may go far on these endless cop v. "civilian" threads. (you don't call us civilians, do you? :) )

[riverdog]

Brownie,
Thanks for taking the time to explain all that. It helps me better understand why I was detained and my truck searched a few years ago.

What would be good is if after these encounters with good guys who have been detained, searched and otherwise put through some stress not of their own choosing, the LEO(s) involved would truthfully explain why they did what they did, rather than just saying something like "weird things happen", or shining me on about an anonymous phone call being grounds for probable cause to conduct a search where no crime had been committed. No crime=No PC.

You explained more in this thread than the LEOs on scene or the LEO on the phone the next day. Thanks again.

[faustulus]

faustulus - thats good advice, but what can happen if i come off rude? can i tell them to leave my property? i was rather rude to them after i figured out the attitude was "guilty till proven innocent"

No matter what their attitude do not act rude. You must always be polite. It will matter later in court.

Brownie,
Your first scenerio is indeed SOP for most police -- right up to the point they do it to a lawyer/councilman's son. I've seem people fired over it. See the problem is you have to prove in court that you had a reason to stop this individual. Most times police can't do it if the lawyer is worth his salt. The proceedure assumes I do not have representation, which is usually correct, however, everynow and again it bites the PD in the backside. There will be a scapegoat and at least he will be disiplined at worse fired.

I don't understand why all the fuss about producing your ID on request.
See National socialist germany or Stalin's Soviet Union.

See it isn't about having nothing to hide. Most LE don't trust non-LEs. Which is fine. You go into each situation aware of the potential danger. I enter an encounter with an LE in the same manner. However, it seems to some at least knowing and exercising my rights is 'suspicious' that is why I know several good lawyers. Police are often pragmatists. They want to accomplish a goal and sometimes they aren't to particular about how they do it.
I don't care how noble the goal is if it treads on my rights, then I will fight to protect them.
See it has been my experince that most LE know jack about Law. They know department policy, and what they are told, but tend to run policy and law together. That is why we need lawyers, they are our defense.

[dinosaur]

Someone mentioned not carrying I.D. unless driving and that failure to carry it must be dismissed in court. I realize (I think) the point would be that one could forget their wallet under these circumstances.

The court thing is true at least AFAIK. However, why would anyone want to waste their time when they could be doing something else? Now this brings us to carrying I.D. all the time.

If you`re walking down the street and have a heart attack and are unconscious, how does the hospital notify your family? They could always waste time calling all the area hospitals I guess. That is after they`ve spent a few hours checking with the neighbors and your hangouts.

[brownie0486]

riverdog: I never really explained my actions as well unless asked directly. Then the answers were kept short and sweet as I could potentially be questioned later by an atty: subsequent to the arrest.

One thing they always got from me was respect as a person. It's an attitude thing with me. If you stay objective in your actions I found I was on terra firma in the courtroom. Their attys were not able to show any hostile attitude on my part from the scene or on the stand later.

This was really easy for me as I had been a PI for 15 years when I went to working with the two depts I worked for over 9 years.
As a PI, I have no authority or powers to coerce when approaching people. They didn't have to talk to me so if I wanted to get the informaton I had to use guile, wits, and a smile to disarm them from any attitudes they may have had when I made initial contact. That background gave me a good base with which to work with the populations/citizenry I protected while on the two depts. [ at different times ].

Though I worked plenty of cruiser shifts I was brought in as a training officer, specifically stick, knife, and h2h defense. Also was assigned [ after I received hk certifications in three venues at my expense ] to the response team on one of the depts. where we took down dealers mostly and brought contained situations to an acceptable close with a minimum of interruption to the community.

faustulus: everyone should have a good atty to represent them when they need one. The time to look for one is not from your jail cell. If my actions have been prudent, polite and can be articulated reasonably I have never had a problem in the courts.
It was a determining factor at all times for my actions. Of course I have been called in court br defense relative my actions. I've had them try to get me to become angry, beligerant, or flustered on the stand. That didn't really work with me as I had been testifying on murder and drug cases in the PI work for over a decade and actually was assigned as a state appointed PI by the courts in Sufflok county [ Boston ] to investigate for their court appointed atty.'s. I know of the games they play to get you to look bad. Keeping the objectivity on the stand and the streets keeps the defendants attys game plan off kilter. They want to portray you as uncaring and subjective in your actions. I never had that problem myself but have seem cops who have been banged away until they got mad and lost it on the stand or got belligerant. It's a game in the courtroom. I found you usually brought it about yourself if you got caught up in their game.

Actually the procedures take into account prior case historys are in flux based on a perceived need to change something as the abuses are uncovered. If you follow the guidelines and stay objective you will usually be on terra firma when court rolls around. The courts also see you often enough to know what type of cop you are by previous work and testimony before them.

I still don't see the fuss about producing an ID, and now that I'm retired from that work I have been asked for mine several times performing the PI tasks on the streets. I probably have a better understanding where they are coming from as I worked that side also. Even when they are bligerant or rude initially, if you keep your head and stay objective it usually works out. If it doesn't you have your day in court.

I never had all the answers, but I had objectivity and intelligence on my side at all times. It got me through some very scary nights work at times by staying focused on the tasks at hand and not allowing myself to become emotional over the circumstances. Thats a throw back from the Corps days when I was a pup overseas I'm sure.

Stay safe out there.

Brownie

[Ol' Badger]

I was once checked out by a LEO on my property at night. He observed the flashlight in the back and stopped to check it out. He asked who I was and I said the owner, just looking for my Cat! He asked for ID and I told him that I had none on me, just my light. Before I could offer to go inside to get it, a neighbor came outside to check on why there were people out there at that hour. I asked him to tell the officer who I was and that seemed good enuff for him and all parties left. I kind of like to think theres guys out the doing a little pro-active Cop work!
Also like to note that the LEO had a good atitude even while making sure that he was safe.

[brownie0486]

Ol' Badger:

And thats the way it is suppose to work.

He was diligent, polite, and questioned you looking for a cat by asking for ID.

Take that scenario and make it the BG is in the back yard with flashlight. Same question, same answer [ about the cat ] no ID to show, I would not want him walking away with that answer only and potentially not catching a BG becuase he had a reasonable story. By taking it further [ asking for iD ] and your demeanor he would have probably seen signs you were not nervous about being caught in your back yard or conversely, the BG would have likely exhibited nervousness and been questioned further to his satisfaction.

Alls well that ends well.

Brownie

[BrokenPaw]

A friend of mine had just bought a house, a couple of years back. The house had been empty and unoccupied for several months before she bought it, and so when the neighbours (who didn't know the house had been bought) saw people moving around on the property that night, they called the local PD and asked them to check it out.

A cruiser came by, and the officers went to the door (since everyone had gone inside by that time). When they knocked on the door, my friend (who was expecting it to be other friends) answered the door. With almost nothing on.[0]

The officers explained why they were there, and she told them that she was the new owner. Because she looked so young, they didn't believe her, so she produced ID (not carried on her person, one might add) that showed she was who she said she was. They still didn't believe that she owned the place, because public records hadn't been updated (she'd only closed on the property that day) and still showed the prior owner's name. She ultimately had to produce a copy of the newly-signed deed and other closing documents to convince them.

In all fairness to the responding officers, she's such a flake that her story probably didn't sound all that convincing, so their request for further documentation wasn't unreasonable under the circumstances.

Also, if I was a cop, and had been confronted with that girl, in nothing but underwear, I myself might have been inclined to draw out the investigation as long as possible. :D

-BP

[0] It should be noted at this point that the girl in question has a spectacular figure, and was 19 at the time, but looked about 16. She's never been particularly modest.

[Art Eatman]

Back 30 years ago I rode "Buddy Patrol" with the Austin, TX PD. Texas law sez an LEO can stop somebody and ask for ID. This is commonly only done when a pedestrian is in an area where walking around is unusual, and commonly only late at night. The LEO commonly makes a note of the name, time and place of the encounter; rarely is further action taken.

During my six or eight months of riding Friday nights on the 3PM-11PM shift, we stopped maybe four guys. One turned out to be wanted for murder in Wyoming; seemed like a nice kid, though--clean, polite...

Overall, even working the rougher part of Austintatious, there was a heckuva lot more observing than "bothering".

Art

[TarpleyG]

As I have the right to "pat frisk" you looking for weapons

Terry v. Ohio from 1967 addressed whether this is allowed or not if anyone cares. It was determined to be okay for the safety of the officer.

http://www.fordhamprep.com/socstud/Cases/terry.htm


The key to my career was always remain objective and keep the prejudices out of the equation. You were treated with respect until you showed me you did not deserve it. I require it from you and you get it from me. If I have done my part in being polite [ even if I have to arrest you or while arresting you], then we had no problem as long as you remained civil.
BINGO!!! Someone on this board recently pegged me as being a little more biased than I thought regarding LEOs. You bet I am. I have friends in LEO that are like brownie, not like other LEOs that have been in the media lately. My friends (and I'd bet brownie as well) have never been in the media. Why? Because they are reasonable folks and don't go off half-cocked with an attitude all the time.

GT

[GinSlinger]

In Texas one must have a state issued ID and at least $7 on them or be subject to vagarency laws. Other states have a simular threshhold. Just a word of caution to some of you who don't carry their ID except when driving. I know of one non-vagarent detainment/identification under that statute.

GinSlinger

[TheeBadOne]

I think most states have vagarency laws on the books.

[faustulus]

Many states where I live still have jim crow laws on the books as well. How do you think those will stand up under appeal.

brownie,
I didn't mean to say you did not act in the best interest of the people you protected nor did I mean to disparage your work in particular. I was going for a more general arguement, that most people do not know the law and many LE use this to their advantage. I have friends who have let LEs search their (my friends) cars when asked. I have refused (politely) several times. Once even held while a drug dog was called to the scene. The apology from the mayor wasn't nearly as nice as the one from the officer who had held me.
I just want to let people know that they have rights and should question pretty much everything. If they are in their back yards looking for their cat, they shouldn't have to prove who they are.

[brownie0486]

faustulus:

I didn't take your comments that way at all, and feel you have brought a valid point to the surface here.

Most LE line officers are familiar with the statutes they enforce regularly on the steets through repetition and having the courts rule later on their actions. It's a learning process for everyone and over time the officers know what the courts will back [ in their actions ] and what they will no back.

The system is not enforced equallly nationwide due in part to the disparity betwen the states laws, and what may be acceptable here isn't necessarily acceptable in another state. Laws are enforced differently by LE from state to state. Certain consitutional laws are enforced equally nationwide but local laws and their enforcement certainly change by state lines and sometimes by county lines.

Having had the opportunity to attend the academy and work the streets enforcing constitutional and local state laws has given me insight into others actions, and at least in my area, being able to understand what is and is not acceptable behaviour not only for myself but the law enforcers I run into at times on the street.

The PI work puts me in strange places at weird hours and of course I am prone to being questioned accordingly, and often. It's the nature of the business if you are active on the streets and you are bound to have contact with LE at one time or another.

The LE community can ask you to open your trunk, let them search the car interior and not be in violation of your rights by asking. You certainly have the right to deny them that request most of the time.

It's not the officers fault you don't know the laws and what he can and can't do. If you grant him permission to search because you didn't know you had the right to say no, it is not his fault, but yours for not having an understanding of your rights.

He has the right to ask and you have the right to deny him his request. I think it upsets the law abiding people that they are asked to open their trunks, etc.

Please bear in mind though that the officer does not know who you are or your background and would not be able to know what and who you are or your intentions toward him on the street.

The tactic of asking your permission to search in no way violates your rights. Many criminals are apprehended this way after they have consented.

I think some of the problem with the general public on this issue is they expect the officer to know what they know about themselves, which of course he usually doesn't. People who are honest and law abiding find it offensive to be asked questions and get the feeling they are being treated or considered as a criminal when that happens.

People need to understand that an officer is confronted continuously with the task of ferreting out the criminals from the law abiders. There are acceptable actions which have been put into place to help them do this through legislation.

There is abuse, there are officers who don't care and have developed the us vs. them attitude. There are also people who are antagonistic toward LE immediately upon contact with them.

We all have our own prejudices and the cops are no different. If you are approached by one and immediately "cop" an attitude with them due to your own prejudices, you should expect his to also surface.

I would not suggest everyday people with no knowledge of the law or their rights begin questioning the LE's every action. It will not lend itself to a happy ending usually.

What I do suggest is to educate yourself on the few laws you may need to know, like MV laws if you drive. Fourth amendment rights where traiffic stops are concerned.

As to looking for the cat in the back yard. The officer was called due to suspicious behaviour [ if it was called by a neighbor ] or the officer saw the action himself while on patrol. If he was dispatched to the scene he has the obligation to check out the complaint and question anyone found during their search of the location [ scene of complaint ].

The guy with the flashlight may be a burlar who is about to break into a home or garage or he may the landowner looking for the cat that didn't come home that night. The officer has no way of knowing who you are until you are ID'ed. He has the obligation to make sure you are not the perp but the landowner who is lawfully on their own property.

If I were asleep in the house I would want and expect him to be checking that guy with the flashlight in my back yard after dark and not be taking just any excuse so he can get back to his cruiser. I would not feel he was diligent in determining who the guy was if he took the answer "I'm looking for my cat" and walked away.

In lieu of asking why he would question who you were at midnight in your back yard it might be easier to understand what he needs to do to "clear" the scene and return to his other functions.

I know I want the officers to be checking the guy in my backyard real close and grant them the latitude to explore all the possibilities available to them to determine he is not an intruder or potential rapist looking for an open window in the back of my home.

I give him the latitude there with no issues at all. I hope if they see someone in my backyard after dark they are as diligent and prudent in their actions as I would be in the same scenario.

Stay safe out there.

Brownie

[faustulus]

Brownie,
I didn't mean to imply that the officer was doing anything wrong in asking to search your car, I just get annoyed that most people don't know you may deny this request.
I understand that a LE doesn't know my background nor my intent, but many that I have encountered expected me to assume their presence was benign. What most people don't realize is that when you are talking to an officer what you say may be used against you at a later date, the Miranda rights only apply when arrested and an interview with an officer can be used in court.
What I want to avoid is putting people in a position to prove their innocence.

[brownie0486]

faustulus:

I agree with that assessment as well, you are always prudent to answer only the questions you feel relevant to the stop or threshold inquiry and defer the rest to an atty at a later date if necessary.

I know one guy I stopped called his atty on the cell phone while I was back at the cruiser checking wants/warrants. Asked me to speak with him on the cell when I got back to his vehicle.

Atty asked me a few questions about the stop and we were good to go. I had stopped him as the car fit the apb description out at that time in my area.

I didn't have to talk to the atty and normally would not have but the guy came back clean, papers were in order [ license, registration ] and so harm done. I explained the situation and the atty had no problem with the stop.

He was on his way in 15 minutes from the time I pulled him over. He had called the atty as he saw another cruiser pull in behind mine and got nervous [ which I understood at the scene and why I agreed to talk to the atty on the cell ].

I only relate that here as others may note it is something available to them if they choose to use it. I'm sure some other officers would not have been so agreeable but then I don't answer for others as stated before.

I always stayed objective until given a reason not to for some reason. I have found when you keep objectivity you can better relate to the people you are dealing with and better understand their responses to your presence and actions.

As to searching the car--if I'm asked to allow a search, they are asked why they want to search the car, and then denied. By asking if I mind if he searches my car he should be able to articulate why he wants to search it in my opinion. If he had enough cause to search he wouldn't be asking. How do I know?---:rolleyes:

Brownie

[Steve in PA]

"I know one guy I stopped called his atty on the cell phone while I was back at the cruiser checking wants/warrants. Asked me to speak with him on the cell when I got back to his vehicle"

Your not serious are you???? I would never have talked to that guy.... he has no business in my traffic stop. He can talk to his client after I'm through with the stop.

"Atty asked me a few questions about the stop and we were good to go"

Good to go???? What if he didn't like your answers???


"I explained the situation and the atty had no problem with the stop."

Again your comments floored me. I don't care if the driver is the pope.....I'm not talking to his lawyer (which would be the big guy in the sky
;) )............or anyone else on his cell. We routinely back each other up....and if every driver is going to be calling their atty when they see a second car.......its gonna be a long night.

This isn't a flame on how you handled the stop........to each is own.......but when I stop a vehicle..........the stop is between the driver and me.

[brownie0486]

Steve in PA:

As I stated I would not normally get that involved and don't recommend it and know why you posted your response.

In this case the guy was 74? [ memory ]. He was visibly shaken at the stop and how I approached the vehicle initially. He was almost in tears and I thought he was going to need possible medical assistance at the scene.

He had the atty on the phone, asked me very meekly if I could speak to him and as there were no issues at that point I made the decision to help alleviate the old timers fears.

I usually give senior citizens much latitude as I would want my grandad treated the same way due to the age and possible medical problems they may have.

I just thought at that time it was being sensitive to his request and in so doing generated some good will between us. He was pretty much back to normal by the time we parted ways.

Brownie

[brownie0486]

deleted as duplicate

[Steve in PA]

Hey........ain't nuttin but a thang bro :D

Its not in my sop......but,...........I might have done the same thing.