.223 Failure to Eject-round stuck in chamber


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Damn the Man
June 11, 2007, 02:58 AM
Howdy. After feeding my new RRA Ar-15 a case of Black Hills, I bought the last and only case of .223 in my local shop: Wolf. :eek: After on 30 round mag, I reloaded and started into the second when the weirdest failure happened. Basically the bolt was open with a round jammed trying to feed. I cleared it and upon closer inspection there was the previous round still in the chamber. Now it's stuck in there.

I've only tried sticking a cleaning rod down the pipe and tapping on it with a rubber mallet. I don't know what to do. HELP. :what:

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Powderman
June 11, 2007, 05:10 AM
1. Clear the weapon, of course.
2. You did say that this is a fired case, right? De-mate the upper from the lower, and remove the bolt carrier group.
3. Sit the upper receiver group, barrel up, on something that will absorb oil. Now, get yourself a can of Kano Kroil, and squirt a good amount down the bore.

4. Let it sit overnight.
5. Procure a wooden dowel (preferable) or part of a coated rod. Place it down the bore until it enters the case. Now tap the end with a hammer until the case ejects.

6. Closely inspect the case. Is the rim intact? If so, you need an extra power extractor spring, and a extractor spring buffer. If the rim has been torn off, take the upper to someone who can do a detailed inspection of the chamber.

Damn the Man
June 11, 2007, 05:19 AM
The round did fire, which is why the bolt blew back and the next round tried to feed and was jammed up between it and the bolt. I can see the rim is dented from that round trying to feed. I'll inspect it once I get it out.

I took the bolt carrier out and ran a cleaning round down there and tapped on it. It didn't move. Is it likely bulged in there? I hope I didn't do anything bad to the barrel.

Can I get Kano Kroil at Sportsman's Warehouse, or maybe a hardware store? Is that a special oil, or are there others that would work that I might already have lying around?

Powderman
June 11, 2007, 06:32 AM
Kroil is probably the best penetrating oil in existence. You can read the specs--and find more goodies--at:

www.kanolaboratories.com

I don't believe that the case is bulged--more than likely, the cause might be twofold:

a. Some of the older Wolf ammo had lacquered cases. When the weapon ran hot, this lacquer would gum up the chamber, making feeding and extraction difficult.

b. An extractor with a weak buffer and spring might jump the rim of the case, instead of extracting it.

In any case, the Kroil treatment should help. After giving it time to penetrate, I would probably get a coated rod, put it down the bore inside the case, cover the end of the rod with a block of wood and give the wood a good whack.Hopefully, this will extract the case.

Kroil is available at the bigger hardware stores (Lowe's and Home Depot), and also from Brownell's.

eliphalet
June 11, 2007, 10:52 AM
. Some of the older Wolf ammo had lacquered cases. When the weapon ran hot, this lacquer would gum up the chamber, making feeding and extraction difficult.

My guess ( only a guess) is lacquer gum is the problem with the stuck case, but your answer Powdernam gives me a question.
If not lacquer what is Wolf using on steel cases now?

DogBonz
June 11, 2007, 10:55 AM
I have seen cases where shooting Wolf steel cased crap will nick or break the ejector.

Powderman
June 11, 2007, 12:51 PM
I don't know the coating, but it hasn't given me any problems. 1000 rounds combined, through my Armalite/Oly Arms frankengun, and a Colt 6920. Zero problems.

Jim K
June 11, 2007, 09:50 PM
DO NOT TRY TO USE A WOODEN ROD TO DRIVE OUT A STUCK CASE OR A STUCK BULLET!!!!! EVER!!! THIS MEANS YOU!!!

The wood rod will splinter and then you will have a stuck case and a stuck and splintered wood rod. Obtain a good steel or brass rod and the case should come out. The main question then should be why the case stuck in the first place. That can go back to the chamber (rough?), the case material (brass too soft?) or case coating. The chamber should be carefully examined also. It is not impossible that defective chambering or even bad barrel material has left a chamber wider at the front than at the rear.

Jim

MudPuppy
June 11, 2007, 11:32 PM
Are the extractors really that fragile? How often have you seen that happen?

What was the round count when that happen and do you know the mfg of that part?

I can see maybe the coating gumming up and causing some stickiness that might cause this, but if you're breaking extractors willy nilly every time you use wolf, I'd be interested in hearing more about that.

mrmeval
June 12, 2007, 01:17 AM
The latest Wolf military classic cases are polymer coated, unknown polymer.
The seem to function fine and I've not seen that particular failure with it.

Isn't there some sort of fix using a o-ring for poor extraction on the AR-15?

MudPuppy
June 12, 2007, 01:44 AM
The old extractors used to be very finicky, there's been a couple of PIP for those depending on type, I think (indicated by color of the ring and spring?)

edit to add:
Courtesy of Jeff White (and PS Magazine) The black insert is used to identify the new STRONGER extractor spring. Its really the spring that is different, the insert color was changed so you could ID it at a glance. Spring and Insert are purchased as a pair. The new spring was developed to solve some extraction issues of the M4. It is stiffer to provide more gripping force. Orginally only used on the M4 it is now authorized to be used on all M16s (instead of the older blue insert/spring).

Update: While the black insert was used to ID the new stronger spring (silver colored spring) the insert itself was also stiffer. In addition in 1993 the Army switched to a gold colored spring (stronger still) with the black insert.

Damn the Man
June 12, 2007, 03:50 AM
Hey Powderman, the rim was torn clear off the casing. Great advice. I got that oil this morning and let it sit all day. I put a coated cleaning rod down it and hammered on it three times and it let go.

So the extractor tore the rim of the casing off. I've given everything I could a thorough cleaning and all seems fine. Should I disassemble the extractor? I never have. Will there be any flying springs? You said to take it to someone to look it over, but what's that a symptom of?

Onmilo
June 12, 2007, 09:59 AM
Now get that cleaning rod and get rid of all traces of the Kroil oil.
That stuff is well known to etch metal if left in place too long.
I am pretty sure it won't affect the chrome plating in an M16 bore but don't be the first to find out it does.

Powderman
June 12, 2007, 02:31 PM
DTM, it's good that the case came out.

For some reason, the case was gripping the walls WAY too tightly, and did not release after the chamber pressure had loosened. What you're looking for is any abmormality that would cause the case to stick--rough chamber, etc.

However, I believe that it would have manifested itself long ago, especially with a chromed chamber.

Clean it up well, and take it to a gunsmith, if you wish. If not--or someone with a borescope is not available, clean well and take it to the range with good brass cased ammunition. Hopefully, it will work well.

Onmilo, when did Kroil etch your bores or chamber? I use it to clean and loosen fouling in a benchrest gun, my M1A NM, and my precision rifle for duty use. I haven't had any problems yet.

agony
June 18, 2007, 10:18 PM
Hi guys.
Sadly, the same exact thing happened to me this weekend during a carbine class. I shot 1000 rounds of Wolf 'polymer' coated 223 through my AR, and had 5 cases stick in the chamber. 4 of them were fairly easy to remove with a little coaxing from a cleaning rod and some light tapping.

However, the last round of fire included 5 30-round mag dumps rapid fire, and the second to last round did the same thing....stuck spent case in the chamber. The gun was smoking hot, and we tried hammering it out and it would not budge. Today, I used a coated rod to try whacking it out, and it still won't move, in fact I destroyed the rod.

I'll have to try the Kroil, but I'm now worried about this 'etching' issue.
Any word on that yet?

Would any generic penetrating oil work too (liquid wrench, etc)?

Powderman
June 18, 2007, 11:34 PM
The penetrating oil should work--after all, the size of the joint you have to access with the oil is not that small.

IMHO, the consequences should NOT include an etched chamber--unless you have some super hard gunk trapped between the case wall and the chamber.

Also, once you get the case out, remember to give your entire bolt carrier group a good dunking in a good solvent, like Hoppe's. When cleaning, pay close attention to the chamber and lugs. I would also probably give the chamber and bore a good going over with Sweet's, too. Just remember to neutralize the Sweet's solvent before continuing the cleaning cycle.

I neutralize the Sweet's solvent like so:

First, patch the bore about 5 times with dry patches. Next, run some oil patches down the bore, then remove all excess with the dry patches. Continue cleaning as normal. Remember to never mix solvents--they can sometimes react unfavorably.

agony
June 19, 2007, 01:02 AM
Thanks Powederman!

The etching comment with Kroil still kinda bugs me. Wonder if there is any truth in this. I've used Kroil for everything and I don't think I've had an issue yet.

Onmilo
June 19, 2007, 10:06 AM
I work night shift at a large manufacturing plant.

We use Kroil oil all the time for loosening bolts on CNC machining station fixture tables and a hundred other jobs requiring a high grade, high quality penetrating oil.

What we have seen that if Kroil is allowed to sit for a prolonged period on time on metal surfaces, especially highly polished metal surfaces it tends to etch into the metal.
Not to a great and huge degree, at least not for the amount of time we have allowed it to sit, but etch the metal it does.

This caused enough problem with a robot raceway that was lubricated with a very large amount Kroil that a portion of the track had to be replaced because the robot would skip out of control alignment and stop moving.

It has etched CNC machining center table slots enough that new securing blocks had to be fabricated to ensure the fixtures were precisely aligned with the cutting spindles.
We are talking runout caused by etching of .050 to .100 microns.
In the real world this isn't much, but to a machining center it is enough to put parts in the realm of out of specification tolerence.

The etching probably wouldn't be noticeable to the average shooter especially since the amount of Kroil oil use in firearm applications is quite small.
However if precision is your shooting game my warning about removing the penetrating oil after it has done it's job I would recommend heeding.

This Manufacturer continues to use Kroil, it is a good product, but operating procedures now require it be removed from surfaces after use.
It is not to be used as a lubricating oil, there are other products available for that purpose.

Powderman
June 19, 2007, 02:01 PM
With regard to firearms, Onmilo is spot on with his post.

Kroil is NOT a lubricant. It is a penetrating oil, and works great as a cleaner--especially to loosen fouling. But it is not a lubricant, and will not protect metal.

However, (and this is to Onmilo) do you see a blend of Kroil and another product harmful? I also use Microil (from Kano Laboratories) on my guns. Specifically, I mix 1 part Kroil to 5 parts Microil. I have used it as a lubricant for about a year now, and have noted no ill effects. Any insight on this?

W.E.G.
June 20, 2007, 10:58 PM
I've had Wolf cases stick in two different AR-type rifles.

Gun fires.

Extractor rips rim off case.

Case stays stuck in chamber.

I've had it happen with the lacquer-kote and the poly-kote wolf.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o168/gary_jeter/wolfrippedrimscomparison.jpg

Not all AR-type rifles do this. But, many do it occasionally, and some do it constantly. Wolf ammo is just that way. Some love it (because it works in their rifles) and others hate it - for obvious reasons.

You don't need to do the Kroil deal to get the case out. I've always been able to just knock it out with steel cleaning rod. My WASR-3 just loves Wolf .223 ammo in any flavor.

I won't say I'll never buy any more wolf .223. But, given any reasonable alternative, I woud stay away from it. I do know I'll never stick it in my AR's again.

agony
June 25, 2007, 10:22 PM
W.E.G.,
I finally got the case out. I tried freezing the complete upper in order to cause the steel case to contract, but that didn't work. I ended up soaking it in liquid wrench penetrating oil (didn't have enough Kroil to stick down the barrel). I banged on the case with a brass rod I bought at lowes--only because I bent two cleaning rods trying to get it out earlier. It worked. The case was covered with black melted polymer, or possibly hardened carbon fouling from the space between the chamber and the poorly expanded steel case.

My rim also had that tell-tale extractor 'rip'.
My chamber is also covered in that black stuff too. Very difficult to get out, and I'm considering taking a dremel to it. I did read elsewhere that single-firing some brass cased stuff through it will help to remove the the black stuff by transfering it to the brass case.

I'll post the results later.

Powderman
June 25, 2007, 11:16 PM
My chamber is also covered in that black stuff too. Very difficult to get out, and I'm considering taking a dremel to it.


Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A thousand times, NOOOOOO!!!!!

No fast moving machine tools around that chamber. Here's some help:

1. Fully disassemble the rifle.
2. Apply some Sweet's 7.62 solvent liberally. Do it outside if you can--the other residents of your household will not like the smell of cat pee permeating the home. Let it sit for about 10 to 15 minutes.
3. Re-apply some more Sweet's.
4. Take a chamber brush--a gen-you-wine M16 chamber brush. Install it on two or three sections of cleaning rod.
5. Chuck the whole thing into a 3/8ths VSR drill.
6. Barely start the brush into the chamber, then start the drill, running at slow speed. Work it gently into and out of the chamber a few times.
7. Remove, and dry patch. Repeat as needed.

When you get this crud out, liberally apply oiled patched to the chamber and bore. This is to neutralize the Sweet's solvent. Now, do a regular cleaning with Hoppe's or the solvent of your choice.

agony
June 27, 2007, 12:44 AM
Thanks for the warning, powderman.
I was only half-serious about the Dremel. But it's the serious half that would've done bad things to my rifle.
:)

Onmilo
June 27, 2007, 10:15 AM
powderman, I don't know if I can answer that question or not.,

The robot tracks were supposedly cleaned and degreased before the Kroil oil was put down,,,,but I wasn't there.

The machine pallets probably had a mixture of water and a Mobiloil synthetic coolant oil still on the surface metal prior to the Kroil being added.
Again I don't know if this affected anything or not.

I know the Company has sent out warnings about the proper use of Kroil Oil and I AM SURE people follow those warnings to the letter:rolleyes:
So far nobody has lost their job for trashing anything.

Bottom Gun
June 27, 2007, 04:37 PM
I have shot thousands of rounds of Wolf in my AR's and never had a problem until now.

I just had the very same thing happen with a case sticking in the chamber. The rim of the brass looked exactly like the ones in the photos shown in W.E.G.'s post. It was the new style grey color Wolf. The primer was extruded somewhat and there was a slight crater around the firing pin dimple like the pressure might have been excessive.

I wonder if this is part of a bad lot of Wolf ammo?

agony
June 27, 2007, 10:40 PM
Here's a pic of the stuck case. Yucky hard blackened crud stuck to the case. In the chamber, it looked the same, but corresponded with the non-black spots on the case. You can also see how the extractor tore the rim.

http://www.fototime.com/396D5C09028D39E/standard.jpg

viking_overlord
September 26, 2008, 01:00 PM
holy necro post batman !! This happened to me and my
LWRC. I was running the new "polymer" coated wolf. I dumped
2-3 30-rounders on semi as fast as I could. The exact same
thing as agony experienced. I soaked it in Liquid Wrench over
night, brass cleaning rod, hammer and it popped out. I won't
bother with the picture. My round looked identical to Agony's.

The same thing happened to my buddy at about the
same time. He performed SPORT and his wolf round came
out on its own. I tried the mortar clear but it was "tool time"
for my AR.

It looks like if you have a tight chamber spec and you are running
hot the "polymer" coating is melting and working like a glue.

wolf is cheap ...

I am only posting to thank the many knowledgeable people on
this list who have helped me with this problem and others as
I have lurked. Thanks again.

<enable lurk mode>

Power Piston
April 24, 2011, 03:19 AM
I also get stuck cases in my Bushmaster. But it is american brass ammo that sticks alot more than the wolf or bear ammo. Seems that the russian brass coated steel ammo works alot better(Golden Bear). I'm tempted to buy a new barrel and only use amercian brass and see if all this about the russian ammo is really true. I once read on Bushmaster site that there is nothing wrong with using the new wolf ammo.

rodregier
April 24, 2011, 07:38 PM
Another popular solvent for firearm applications that will remove plastic residues is Shooter's Choice MC #7 Bore Cleaner. Touted to remove wad residues from shotgun barrels.

http://www.shooters-choice.com/mc7.html

bbuddtec
April 25, 2011, 08:30 PM
The coated rounds are ok for plinking, but if you are rapid firing, you risk the case fusing to the hot chamber, known value.

The polymer melts, and sticks. I was warned of this when my friend heard I had my AR.

rodinal220
April 28, 2011, 12:27 PM
I always make part of my range/bench kit a piece of O-1 5mm drill rod for stuck bullets and cases in 5.56/223 weapons.Way cheaper than messing up your cleaning rod.

http://www.kbctools.com/usa/Navigation/NavPDF.cfm?PDFPage=800

rjrivero
April 28, 2011, 12:54 PM
I wonder if this is part of a bad lot of Wolf ammo?

It's Wolf. There's a reason it's so cheap. A laquered steel case in your rifle, what really do you expect it to do?

I know ammo costs are going up. But really, there are better ways to save on ammo costs than resorting to steel cased laquered ammo, IMVHO.

col.lemat
April 28, 2011, 01:38 PM
So sad. I would never use anything except brass cased ammo just for this reason. Steel sticks to steel. Brass to steel dont. Dissimilar materials. Kind of like babbet bearings.

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