[Flashpoint]

There are a lot of threads everywhere talking about the effectiveness of one caliber over another. From what I have seen it boils down to two types of people. One type of people being the "Lots of rounds, fast bullet" cheering for the 9MM. The second being the "Big bullet knocks big holes and has smaller risk of over penetration" people cheering for the .45 cal ACP. I have found very few if any people claiming the .40 cal S&W to be there round of choice. Most people don't have anything good to say about the round. So what's the point of the round being used, or even developed. Also if so many people consider it such an unnecessary or inferior round why do so many LEOs us it.

Disclaimer: The above description of the two types of people is not the end all be all. Just a general description of what I have noticed.


I will not put on my flack jacket and flame suit.

Croyance,
Thanks for catching what my tired eyes and spell checker did not.

[David4516]

You forgot group #3: the ".32 ACP is the best round because I don't want to carry a big .45" group. There is some truth to this, a .25 ACP in the pocket beats a .50 AE in the safe...

[Croyance]

Flame suite? A large hotel room where all my luggage ends up burned to cinders? A euphamism (sp?) for chambers in Auschwitz?
A few points for the .40 S&W:
It gives larger capacity than the .45 ACP while punching larger holes than a 9*19.
I believe it meets FBI criteria set after the infamous and overanalyzed Miami shootout.
Sales - it appeals to those who have to have the newest thing, as well as those who want to have what the police have.

According to some, it is a large bore round, and certainly gun writers have been pushing it as such. Effective or not, I have trouble seeing it as a large bore round.

Some police units have it because it was the newest thing, and touted as an effective comprimise between the .45 ACP and 9 mm. More magazine capacity than the one, more power than the other.
Remember, police are people. They are also suceptible to sales pitches. They also want the newest toys.
Many police departments will choose based on what the FBI uses. After all, they run all those tests and stuff.

[ACP230]

The .40 S&W has about the same ballistics as the original .41 Magnum "Police Load." The cops who actually used the .41 Police Load seemed fairly happy with it.

I have a .40 S&W Taurus auto squirreled away. I shot it a couple of times with Cor-Bon .40 JHPs and found it LOUD and snappy in recoil. It was louder than the .45 ACP I shot in Bowling Pin matches and in a gun I liked a lot less than my Colts and Para-Ordnance .45s. I haven't shot it in some time and still have part of the first box of ammo. If I was already set up to reload .40 it might be different.

One unanticipated use for the .40 S&W is in a Smith 10mm. I have heard that the fastest way to reload one of the M610 revolvers is to use .40 S&W ammo in a speedloader. I can't say I've seen anyone do it, but it sounds like it would work fine for a quick reload in IDPA.

[Tamara]

One unanticipated use for the .40 S&W is in a Smith 10mm. I have heard that the fastest way to reload one of the M610 revolvers is to use .40 S&W ammo in a speedloader.

You mean a moonclip, right? Since the 10mm rounds in the gun headspace on the case mouth, a .40 round would kinda fall all the way into the cylinder unless moonclips were used. :)

[Nightcrawler]

The .40 S&W has about the same ballistics as the original .41 Magnum "Police Load." The cops who actually used the .41 Police Load seemed fairly happy with it.

If I'm not mistaken, the "Police Load" for .41 Magnum was a 210 grain bullet at 1100 feet per second. That's quite a bit healthier than what .40 can do. The "Highway Patrol" load, of course, was full-house .41 Magnum, 210 grains at 1300+ feet per second (I've heard it was almost 1500 fps, but that seems high).

[Standing Wolf]

Now you know why I pack a .357 magnum: the nine millimeter is too light; the .45 A.C.P. is too slow, and the .44 magnum comes in guns I can't conceal comfortably.

[Soap]

In my humble opinion there are two groups as well:

1) Those who debate 9mm vs. .40 vs. 10mm vs .45ACP vs. .357 ad nausea

2) Those who have made their choices and train with their gear.

[New_comer]

So what's the point of the round being used, or even developed
I keep on reading that the 40S&W is the answer to a question that was never asked...

Maybe it is so, maybe not. But I have to concede that it does have its followers.

The cult of the .40... there's your third group, I think... ;)

[Shmackey]

Also if so many people consider it such an unnecessary or inferior round why do so many LEOs us it.

Because they don't take the time to learn to shoot the real .40-caliber round, the 10mm.

[New_comer]

I'd call that the "Goldilocks' mentality:


"That's too big; but this one's too small. Let make one that's just right..."


I could already see down the road, either a .425 or a .377 shoved down the market's throat, if only for the same line of reasoning... :rolleyes:

[Oracle]

The truth, Flashpoint, is that it doesn't really matter. Out of the available self-defense calibers, if you use decent expanding ammunition, are about equal in terms of "stopping power". Try the different calibers and platforms out, and find one that you prefer. Then train often with it, get professional training if you can. That's the best solution to being able to adequately defend yourself and your loved ones.

[iluvG.R.I.T.S]

The two guns i carry most or in .40 a smith and wesson Chief's Special and a Taurus Millennum.

[New_comer]

Oh, and I forgot....


This is what my sig line has been all about... :D

[Mike Irwin]

I personally am in the "gimmie a gun, any gun, it's better than a rock" camp...

[E357]

The FBI needed an excuse for its poor tactics in the Miami Shootout so they blamed the ammo and came up with the 10mm as the answer. In a short time they realized that the 10 was too much gun for their agents. So they switch their Special Agents to an 10mm Special AKA the .40 S&W which is easier shooting and can be fitted into most 9mm sized handguns. Once the FBI started using the 40, Local Police were sure to follow. Manufacturers loved the 40 and pushed this round because it allowed selling a whole new weapon to Gov't agencies while only doing a slide change.

Elliot

[Flashpoint]

What happened in the "Miami Shootout" that constituted a whole new round of ammo?

[E357]

Here's some statistics on the gunshots in The Miami Shootout (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm). The movie is a very good account of the overall mess. Movie - The FBI Murders (http://www.brucegreenwood.com/mov-tv/fbi/).

The FBI decided to take down two well armed (.223's etc) thugs in the middle of a suburban Miami street in the middle of the day without a plan and without firepower and with no reason as to why they couldn't wait for a better time. They said their 9mm were no good. As it turns out a 38 snubby finished the shootout.

Elliot

[Sean Smith]

What I found scary about that whole encounter, from a hardware point of view, was how consistently head shots with the .38 Special +P failed to produce a significant effect on the target. Each of the bad guys took at least one to the head at short range, and in both cases they inflicted non-fatal, non-incapacitating wounds. Pretty scary stuff... just goes to show how handguns, even with seemingly ideal hits, are really just weak weapons of last resort. That should have been the real hardware-related lesson of the encounter.

[Andrew Wyatt]

If someone asked me to pick between a glock in .45, or a 1911 in 9mm, i'd pick the 1911.


I'm more concerned with the platform and how it fits me than caliber or capacity configurations.

[grenadier]

A true 10 mm load (not the FBI-lite) will give .41 magnum performance, and even then, will approximate the lower to middle areas of the .41 magnum's performance range.

As for the efficacy of a certain caliber over another, as long as you do your part, and place the shot, while selecting a proven premium load that is reliable in your gun, then the cartridge will do the job quite nicely.

[Delmar]

I figure the loads in a 10MM are pretty stout, but from what I have looked at, and this is going back some years, the 10 has about 100 or so fps over the best loads in a 45 ACP. Has this changed all that much???

[Flashpoint]

E357,

Thanks for the link. No wonder I never heard of the shoot out, I was 11 years old when it happened.

[Dave T]

First, the performance of the 40 S&W doesn't duplicate the 41 Mag which was a 210g bullet at 900+ fps. The 40 actually duplicates the black powder performance of the 38 WCF (more commonly known as the 38-40) which fired a 40 caliber, 180g bullet at about 950 fps from a SAA revolver. A friend of mine calls the 40 S&W the "38-40 Straight - Rimless - Smokeless".

Second, the 40 is a compromize where bullet wieght and velocity split the difference between the 9mm and the 45 ACP. As with most compromizes it does neither job as well as the original. On the other hand, it is popular with law enforcement because it gives a slightly larger and heavier bullet in a smaller gun that fits a wider variety of shooter's hands.

[Sean Smith]

I figure the loads in a 10MM are pretty stout, but from what I have looked at, and this is going back some years, the 10 has about 100 or so fps over the best loads in a 45 ACP. Has this changed all that much???

Well, let's see...

200gr 10mm: 1,200-1,250 ft/sec (640 ft-lbs) with factory ammo
200gr .45 ACP+P: 1,050 ft/sec (490 ft-lbs) with factory ammo

180gr 10mm: 1,320 ft/sec (696 ft-lbs) with factory ammo
185gr .45 ACP+P: 1,150 ft/sec (543 ft-lbs) with factory ammo

155gr 10mm: 1,350-1,375 ft/sec (627-651 ft-lbs) with factory ammo
165gr .45ACP+P: 1,250 ft/sec (573 ft-lbs) with factory ammo

Of course, these comparisons don't tell the whole story. Comparing sectional desnities, the 10mm loads you should compare to .45 ACP loads runs something like this...

200gr 10mm ~ 250gr .45
180gr 10mm ~ 230gr .45
155gr 10mm ~ 200gr .45
135gr 10mm ~ 165gr .45

With that in mind, the energy gap between 10mm and .45 ACP at a given sectional density is even bigger than the above comparisons suggests. Making a more sensible comparison, 230gr .45 ACP+P maxes out at 950 ft/sec and 461 ft/lbs, or 235 ft/lbs behind the Cor-Bon 180gr 10mm load. On the old ballistics tables Cor-Bon used to have up, that load had more energy at 100 yards than .45 ACP+P typically has at the muzzle. Hence the common statement that 10mm is a better hunting cartridge than .45 ACP.

[meathammer]

In my opinion the .40 S&W does have it's place. I happen to be very fond of it too. :D

[Delmar]

Well Shawn, since I roll my own, I don't see such a big power difference.

My handloading manuals get me:
1223 fps for 155 grains
1192 fps for 185 grains
1112 fps for 200 grains
981 fps for 230 grains
984 fps for 240 grains
960 fps for 250 grains
899 fps for 260 grains

Agreed the 10MM is flatter shooting, and I know there are people here who have their 10's barking pretty good, but I also understand the firearms companies are not going to load the ACP to the max like the 10MM. The ten is generally found in the higher end quality pistols and is a high pressure case where the 45 is low pressure-the loads I'm quoting here do not go over 21,000 psi.

I really want to try out a 10 in the game field, as I know they carry the energy farther. Might have to make a move on a Delta Elite soon and see what I can make with it.

[Sean Smith]

No offense intended, but you are wrong 12 ways past Sunday. Spelled my name wrong too. :p

Well Shawn, since I roll my own, I don't see such a big power difference.

My handloading manuals get me:
1223 fps for 155 grains
1192 fps for 185 grains
1112 fps for 200 grains
981 fps for 230 grains
984 fps for 240 grains
960 fps for 250 grains
899 fps for 260 grains

Your manuals are, frankly, crap. Those are more like STARTING loads for 10mm... and you've already maxed out .45 ACP. You can match the factory ballistics I quoted very easily with AA#7 or AA#9, and blow them out of the water (at safe pressures) with 800-X and magnum primers.

Agreed the 10MM is flatter shooting, and I know there are people here who have their 10's barking pretty good, but I also understand the firearms companies are not going to load the ACP to the max like the 10MM. The ten is generally found in the higher end quality pistols and is a high pressure case where the 45 is low pressure-the loads I'm quoting here do not go over 21,000 psi.

Factory 10mm isn't loaded near the max. And some 10mm book loads are comically conservative. Anyone who knows anything about the cartridge knows that. Again, not to be rude, but you are making claims that are pretty widely known to be wrong. As for .45 ACP... what you said isn't being done with .45 ACP is being done with the dimensionally identical .45 Super and .450SMC, cartridges that by the way can't beat 10mm ballistics either (though they are in the same ballpark).


BTW, here are some 10mm BOOK loads:

HORNADY 10 MM LOAD DATA
Source: Hornady 4th edition Manual

Test firearm, Colt Delta Elite, Winchester Large Pistol Primers, 1.260" COL, Hornady Brass

155gr XTP:
13.9gr AA#7 1,400 ft/sec
12.7gr Blue Dot 1,350 ft/sec

HODGDON POWDER 10 MM LOAD DATA
Source: Hodgdon 1997 DATA, & #26 Hodgdon Manual

155gr JHP:
12.0gr HS-7 1,350 ft/sec
11.0gr HS-6 1,350 ft/sec

ALLIANT 10 MM LOAD DATA
Source: Alliant 1996 pamphlet

135gr JHP:
10.6gr Power Pistol 1,530 ft/sec

190gr JFP:
8.2gr Power Pistol 1,200 ft/sec

DISCLAIMER: These are published max book loads. If you intend to use this data, reduce loads and work up to these levels. NOT responsible for typographical errors or misuse of this data.

http://home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/10mmdata.htm

Just to reiterate, no offense intended. But your info is bad.

[Delmar]

Sean, apparently my previous post was not clear to you. Those were loads for a 45 ACP-not a 10MM. My velocity data was from some of the same manufacturers you quoted, so you must be reading the same crap I am:neener:

Back to my question: Does the 10MM really provide that much more than a top load with a 45 ACP? Not if its only about 150-200 fps, to me. I think that I may be stepping up to a big bore revolver if I want to hit harder without going to something of a wildcat. Although I do handload for all my calibers, component availablity is important to me. I tend to shoot more accurately with autoloaders than wheelguns, but I suspect practice will help with that problem.

I still have my eye on a very slightly used Delta Elite and plan to have it in a month or so, and then I will know what the deal means to me.

[Sean Smith]

I could have worded my post a little clearer... I mean that your numbers were crap in the sense that they were way slower than 10mm, not that they weren't "real" .45 loads. The figures you quoted are way slower than the 10mm factory numbers I quoted, or the 10mm book loads I quoted, or...

You should be comparing the energy you get out of a 155gr 10mm load (1,400 ft/sec) to a 200gr .45 ACP load (1,112 ft/sec), the 200gr 10mm load (1,200-1,250 ft/sec) to the 250gr .45 load (960 ft/sec), and so forth. Similar sectional densities for an apples-to-apples comparison.

You can get what you want, of course, and nobody will tell you that .45 sucks (I'm shooting one now). But it just isn't in the same weight class as 10mm... not with factory ammo, and certainly not with handloads. We are talking about factory 10mm ammo that doubles the muzzle energy of GI hardball here, and the numbers you quoted aren't much better.... your pull-out-all-the-stops heavy load is doing at the muzzle what the hotter 10mm loads are doing 100 yards later...

[Scoob]

"SO what's the point"

I like the .40. It's my favorite round, and I've shot 9mm, 45, 10mm, 357sig,357mag,38spl, and 44mag. I think that's it:confused: . I own a 9mm,357sig, .40, and 38spl.

Anyway, I like it. Some say it's inaccurate or "short an weak", or they can't handle the recoil. In my experience accuracy has been fine, I can't tell a difference. As far as being weak, that depends on what you comapare it to. I find it funny that some of the same people calling it short and weak are complaining about the recoil. How much sense does that make? If the recoil is too snappy, shoot something "weaker":neener:

[only1asterisk]

Sean,

In regards to high pressure .45 rounds vs. 10mm, at equal pressures, proportional barrel length and with correct powders, the 45 caliber cartridge will always push equal weight bullets faster. However, equal bullet weight is not really valid comparison. As you said, sectional density is a better way to compare bullets. Best 10mm 180 grain JHP published loads run 1200-1275 in the 33-37,000 psi range. The 460 Rowland (effective case capacity is equal to the 45 ACP at equal OAL) list a 230 grain bullet @ 1207fps/32,200psi and 1336fps/39,200psi.

Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate use of 460 Rowland for anything nor am I trying to degrade the 10mm. Like you said you need to compare apple to apple and orange to orange.


David

[Sean Smith]

.460 Rowland ain't .45 ACP. You have to convert your gun to fire it... new barrel, whole 9 yards. :rolleyes:

If you get to use truly obscure wildcats like .460 Rowland that will grenade a gun without a ramped comp barrel to prove a bogus "point," I get to use 800-X loads for 10mm that safetly get you to about 1,450 ft/sec with the 180gr bullets. :neener:

[355sigfan]

While I like the 40sw and the 357 sig. I have to admit that with the modern ammo we have the world be just fine with only the 9mm and the 45 acp as the two auto pistol choices for ccw and police use. Not many questions out there that these two rounds can't answer.
PAT

[only1asterisk]

Sean,

The point isn't bogus, the point is an undeniable fact. The 460 Rowland was uses as an example because it has the same effective case capacity as the 45 ACP. The launching platform is of no importance, neither are you particular 50,000+ psi handloads. The point you have dismissed as bogus, simple and should be obvious. A larger case capacity with a larger diameter bullet will always push and equal weight bullet faster, and, according to all the published data I was able to find, the case capacity of the 45 ACP is capable of comparable velocities with bullets of equal SD at equal pressure to those found in 10mm loads. The same may or may not hold true for pressures up to 50,000psi, I don't know of any published pressure data for the 10mm that extends into that range, but if there was a handgun to fire a 50,000 psi cartridge with a .451 diameter bullet and a case capacity equal to a 45 ACP, it would without question exceed a 10mm load with the same bullet weight (all other qualifiers as above). Nothing bogus here, just a fact that can be proven.

If the major ammo factories loaded the 10mm it's potential (to velocity range the handguns so chambered will permit without undue wear), it would be a better cartridge, but there is noting wrong with it.


David

PS Trying to prove one cartridge is better than another is fruitless. All cartridges have benefits and detractions.

[Sean Smith]

A larger case capacity with a larger diameter bullet will always push and equal weight bullet faster, and, according to all the published data I was able to find, the case capacity of the 45 ACP is capable of comparable velocities with bullets of equal SD at equal pressure to those found in 10mm loads.

.460 Rowland isn't .45 ACP. The comparison being made, before you butted in and started talking about wildcats you can't even buy a factory gun in, was .45 ACP vs. 10mm Auto. Your theoretical point may well be valid, but it is also irrelevant, because a .45 ACP case can't withstand anywhere near the pressures of a 10mm case... more like 1/2 the peak pressures, actually. And the comparison being made was... drum roll... .45 ACP vs. 10mm. :D

And with that, I'm outta this topic for good. So you can bring up all the wacky wildcat calibers you want to claim ballistic victory...

:neener:

[Scoob]

Well my 30-06 can push bullets faster than..........:rolleyes: :D

[only1asterisk]

Pissing match over!

Funny thing is, I wasn't really arguing with anyone. Just injecting a few facts into a emotional topic. Pressure is velocity(over simplified). You can as fast as you want, at least once. If you disagree with me, please articulate your argument in a civilized manner.
By the way, in a factory 1911 with a fully supported chamber (like mine), or a revolver (or a rifle for that matter) you can load a 45 ACP case far above levels that would be safe in other guns (heavier cases are cheap insurance, don't load 45 ACP cases over published MAX loads).

If you want to compare handgun cartridges for self defense, compare the widely available loads in the common cartridges. Things hot rod 10mm handloads, semi-exotics like the 45 Super or small volume specialty ammo makers that come and go, aren't really relevant. The only reason I posted was Mr. Smith's inaccuracy in attacking Mr. Delmar (and his rude demeaning tone).

Please carry on your discussion!



David

[New_comer]

Which brings us back to the original argument:


So, what's the point? for the .40S&W?


The answer is quite obvious....


CHOICES :D