[Hawk]

So I'm loading my first "on my own" metallics and decide on .357 Mag. Lurking about the fora, I settle on H110 and 158 XTP. Like a good little camper, I buy a manual and check the powder manufacturer’s recommendations:


1. The Speer manual shows 13.9 to 15.5 grains.

2. IMR’s load data website shows 15 through 16.7 grains.

3. This is found in Hodgdon’s FAQ:

Q. Why can't I reduce my charges of H110 to get a mild practice load?

A. All powders have a pressure range that allows them to be most efficient. When powders are used in applications outside this range, strange things happen. H110, LIL' GUN, LONGSHOT and H4227 should all be treated as magnum grade powders. They should have a magnum primer, tight crimp, and near maximum charges. Reduced loads below the 3% recommended may result in the powder refusing to burn and a bullet stuck in the barrel.




Does the 3% mean 3% below 15 grains or below 16.7 grains?

If it's the 15 grains, then Speers starting loads are dangerous. If it's the 16.7, all of Speers loads are trash.

I somehow survived my 14 grain starting loads. I presume the prudent thing would be bump to 15.5 for the next batch? Although it's Speer's "max" load it's barely enough to keep from blowing up the gun according to the people making the powder.

Are conflicts of this nature the norm or was I just "lucky" in my selection of components to start?
:what:

[Car Knocker]

If it's the 15 grains, then Speers starting loads are dangerous. If it's the 16.7, all of Speers loads are trash.
Load data is developed by different manufacturers using different components and different test fixtures - that's why load data is only valid using those particular components and why load data varies - sometimes significantly. Start on the low side and work up because your firearm is different than what their load was developed in (even similar firearms may react differently to the same load).

[Hawk]

The problem, in this case, is that Hodgdon says starting low is dangerous as a bullet is likely to lodge in the barrel. I could be missing something obvious here but it sure looks like they want no more than 3% from a "near maximum" charge.

Edited to add for clarity:
Even if Hodgdon's dire 3% warning only applied to thier 15 grain number, that would be a minimum charge of 14.6 grains, which is well over Speer's starting load. Either a 14 grain starting load is dangerous or it's not. I don't know how one could tell from reading the instructions.

[solvability]

There have been warnings for years about H110 and a danger of detonation with reduced loads - personally I like loads that leave little air space so the possibility of a flash over is reduced, which I suspect is the possible cause of a detonation.

A squib load in a revolver is dangerous, but a detonation is a real show stopper.

I would look at the most recent Hogdon data.

[Hawk]

I'm guessing the Hodgdon data is the most recent. My Speer manual is several years old.

I guess I'll stir up another batch at 15.5 and just not worry about starting at Speer's max load.

My other surprise (which the search function could have avoided) was the muzzle flash of the H110 compared to factory rounds. I guess I could just visually verify that nothing got stuck by the flamethrower going downrange.

[solvability]

Wait until you load up H110 in 7.62x25 - blast, flash, noise - very impressive.

[Mal H]

solvability - I don't think you'll find warnings about detonation with reduced loads of H110. The warnings are about squib loads. That warning is valid. I've been there done that - once.

Detonation is almost an urban legend in handloading and doesn't seem to go away with time. It is true that there are some verifiable accounts of what seems like detonation with very slow rifle powders in rifle calibers (it's called SEE or secondary explosion effect), but not with handgun calibers and the normal range of handgun powders.

[Hawk]

So I guess H110 wasn't the best choice for someone unfamiliar with the dark arts?

I'll forget I saw anything conflicting with the Hodgdon data and all should be much easier. I'll release the Speer manual from the dungeon when the H110 is used up.

Reduced charges more dangerous than max charges? Would've bet against that a week ago.

[ReloaderFred]

H110 is very similar to Winchester 296, and some claim it's the same, but we won't debate that in this thread (I hope). The reason I mention it is Winchester says to use the load exactly as listed, and they only list one charge for each bullet. I've used their suggested loads and they work just fine, but they're right up there at the top of the power scale, and are definately not "plinker" loads. Both H110 and Win. 296 are for serious power in the pistol rounds they're listed for.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[solvability]

I am not ready to give up on the risk of detonation in pistol cartridges - have not experienced it but have discussed it with folks well versed in interior ballistics. Here is an article that I happened on - a resonable statement of my thoughts on the matter:


Shooting Sports - Light load detonations
M. D. Smith did an excellent experiment using light loads and repositioning the powder in the case to demonstrate the effect of uneven burns and pressure waves on exterior ballistics. In short, powder positioned by the primer produced consistant velocities while powder positioned by the bullet produced very erratic velocities. These results are consistant with current Interior Ballistics thought.

The interior of a cartridge in combustion is not an ideal gas at rest. There is a flame front, pressure waves, and two densities of content present (air and powder/air). As you know, sound waves propagate through different densities at different speeds. It is a complex environment to model, and no single physical rule is sufficient.

Generally speaking, an air gap in a cartridge causes the flame front to extend quickly over the exposed surface of the propellant. Because of gravity, this air gap (and flame front) tends to be along the top of the powder, because the powder has settled along the bottom.

Some powders work well in this situtation, like a little Bullseye in a big .45 Colt case. It has lots of room to expand and quickly reaches peak pressure and complete combustion, resulting in an economical and efficient load. Bullseye is a double-base powder with lots of energy content and little or no retardant. It needs little more than a spark to ignite it.

Slow single-base powders or heavily retarded double base ball powders need pressure, not just ignition heat, to burn well. They generally burn well in a full case with no air space (other than inter-powder space). In cold conditions, with weak primers, and/or low pressures (light loads) it is quite possible to get a "bad burn" (large percentage of propellant never ignites.) This manifests itself in erratic velocites, hangfires and so-called "bloopers".

Occasional detonations of light loads of slow powders was well debated in the 50's and 60's and is now an accepted fact of interior ballistics. They are easier to understand given the facts above, and the fact that most energetic materials have two burn rates, a deflagration rate and a detonation rate. Propellants are distinguished from explosives (by the knowledgable, anyway) as energetic material being consumed at its deflagration rate. Explosives are self-consuming at their detonation rate.

Most energetic materials can be consumed at either rate, given certain circumstances. Dynamite lit with a match will produce a blazing bonfire, but no explosion. Expose it to the concussion of a blasting cap and it will detonate. Light it with a match in an small, unvented closed chamber (called a "bomb") and it will transition from deflagration to detonation once the pressures get high enough (assuming it is not already completely consumed.)

Detonations of small charges of slow powder work the same way. They deflagrate (relatively) slowly. Often pressure waves move the powder around and pack it against the base of the bullet. Single base extruded grains often break and are crushed by the slowly rising pressure. Now propellant is burning front-to-back, where it was burning top-to-bottom and/or back-to-front.

Pressure waves then bounce back and forth along the case, sometimes meeting each other in opposing directions and producing peak pressures nearly twice the expected, given the volume of gas. This impact or concussion sometimes pushes the burn rate of the propellant into its detonation rate.

Modern reloading manuals warn against reducing loads of W296 and H110 in magnum pistol, and H4350/IRM4350 and slower in magnum rifle, for this reason.

The .308 and .30'06 are relatively immune to this phenonenon for two reasons. One, the exposed surface of the base of the bullet is fairly large compared to the case volume. Given the same crimp and debulleting force required, debulleting occurs sooner than in a .308" than a .277" because at "X" PSI there is more square inches (or fractions thereof) of bullet base for the gas to push against. Debulleting considerably moderates unfavourable pressure wave situations by increasing chamber volume (lowering pressure, giving pressure waves longer travel, etc). Chamber volume increases quicker in a .308" bore than a .277" bore for each unit of bullet travel because of the four-fold increase in bore volume for each corresponding increase in bore radius.

The second reason is proximity. The cases are small enough that either primer spark, or the primary flame front will reach all the powder relatively soon in the sequence of ignition. When a signficant amount of powder packs-up in the front of the case, unignited, the chances of detonation greatly increase.

Understanding all this aids the reloader in choosing the proper burn rate for each cartridge and load, though some experimentation is always worthwhile.

Ken.


:

[Sunray]

"...Does the 3% mean 3% below..." Minimum. If it's 3% below 16.7 it doesn't matter. 3% is 5.1. If you load 5.1 grains below minimum, you can get dangerous pressures just like you can by loading 5.1 grains over maximum.
1. Speer's data is for their bullets using whatever powder for that bullet. Their data isn't dangerous.
2. IMR's data is for IMR powders.
On-line data tends to be more accurate due to the time it takes to put out a manual. However, ALL loads in all manuals are tested by ballistics engineers.

[Grumulkin]

H110 is very similar to Winchester 296, and some claim it's the same, but we won't debate that in this thread (I hope).

Let's debate it!

H110 is the same as Winchester 296 and H414 is the same as Winchester 760. If you don't believe it, look at the 2007 issue of Hodgdon's reloading magazine. Where the respective powders are listed in a load, you will find that the starting charge, the maximum charge, the pressures and velocities listed are EXACTLY the same. If Hodgdon wasn't using the same powders for the tests, they would never get exactly the same numbers. Besides, I contacted Hodgdon personally and they confirmed what I had heard and suspected.

[Hawk]

@Sunray

The Speer data was for H110 with a 158 grain JHP. Their starting loads are dangerous or Hodgdon is pounding sunshine up my dungarees.

The IMR (Hodgdon) data is for H110 with a 158 grain JHP (specifically, a HTP).

We are talking the same thing. Hodgdon's data is consolidated on IMR's site. (There is a .01 OAL diff).

Isn't 5.1 grains closer to 30% of the loads we're tossing around? I'm already thinking reloading is a dark art without moving decimal points on me. Or is the 3% taken on a value other than the 15 or so grains?

[Mal H]

solvability - Although that treatise sounds believable, do you know who Ken Marsh is and why we should believe he knows what he is talking about?

When he says things like: "Occasional detonations of light loads of slow powders was well debated in the 50's and 60's and is now an accepted fact of interior ballistics", I wonder if he does.

What constitutes "occasional"? 1 out of every 50,000,000 rounds fired?
The "fact of interior ballistics" is now accepted by whom?

[ArchAngelCD]

Hawk,
I loaded 100 rounds of 158 gr Flat Point FMJ ammo with 16.7 gr of H110 and let me tell you, it's very hot stuff. I primarily loaded those rounds to shoot out of my Marlin 1892C but gave them a try in my 4" S&W M619 too. I'm telling you, they are hot!!!

As for H110 and W296, since Hodgdon also owns IMR and Winchester Powder Company they are now the same. If you have some old W296 it's slightly different but anything made after the merger is the same powder. I know this because I wrote Winchester about the lack of loading data for their W231 and W296 and I was told in an Email that any data for HP-38 is good for W231 and data for H110 was good for W296. If the manufacturer is telling me this it must be true since the Lawyers they employ would never let them say anything that might get them sued.

[EddieCoyle]

Congratulations! You picked one of the hardest powders to use your first time out. My experience with H110 has been mixed. I used to use it for loading .500 S&W Magnum, .460 S&W Magnum, and .30 Carbine. As pistol powders go, H110 is very slow burning, and hard to "light".

There are three things to remember with H110:


Never go below the minimum load. I've done it and the result was a bullet lodged in the barrel. Using 385gr bullets, the minimum load for the .500 is 39.0 grains. I wanted some lighter loads and tried 37 grains. The first round stuck in the barrel.
Use a heavy roll crimp. It takes some pressure to get this powder rolling. If the bullet leaves the case too early, there won't be enough pressure to get a good burn - especially in a revolver.
Use a magnum primer. Your rounds will work with a regular primer, but you'll get more consistent results (especially with a long narrow case like a .357) with a magnum primer. I learned this loading the .460. My velocities were all over the map (+/- 300 fps spread) with a standard primer, but tightened right up (+/- 50 fps) with a magnum primer.

Based on some advice I got here (thanks NavyLT) for full power loads I've switched to Lil' Gun for the .500 and .460, and use the H110 only for .30 Carbine. For lighter loads in the magnum calibers I use Titegroup.

I wouldn't use H110 for .357.

[Hawk]

Well, my rather nebulous goal was to duplicate standard factory .357 loads, not exceed them. I was intending to put a fair number through my 686 and didn't want to stress the old boy.

There's a 1.7 grain buffer between Hodgdon's lightest and heaviest recommendations. One wonders if 15.8 would provide consistent results without exceeding factory pressure levels?

By "hot" do you mean recoil and/or pressure levels? My 14 grains starters (now evidently dangerously low) were somewhat lighter in recoil than factory silvertips but put out much more muzzle flash.

A chrono, I gather, won't tell me much about pressure but I should be able to detect consistency(?).

Or should I just shelve the H110 and start over with a different powder if the intent is consistent duplication of factory ballistics?

Edited to add: looks like Eddie and I were posting simultaneously with me being the slower typer. How about 2400 or Unique?

[EddieCoyle]

There's a 1.7 grain buffer between Hodgdon's lightest and heaviest recommendations. One wonders if 15.8 would provide consistent results without exceeding factory pressure levels?
Here's some data:

Hodgdon web site: Low-15.0, High-16.7
Lyman 3rd Edition: Low-16.3, High 17.0
Lee 2nd Edition: Low-15.0, High 16.7
Speer Number 13: Low-13.9, High-15.5

The Speer Manual recommends a magnum primer.

By "hot" do you mean recoil and/or pressure levels? My 14 grains starters (now evidently dangerously low) were somewhat lighter in recoil than factory silvertips but put out much more muzzle flash.
"Hot" generally refers to pressure levels but hotter loads usually generate more recoil as well. H110 is a "flashy" powder. If you used magnum primers your 14 grain loads are probably OK (per Speer).

You won't get one of those mythical light charge detonations with H110. If they do occur, those detonations require lots of air space inside the cartridge. Even a "light" 14 grain charge of H110 more than fills the case enough to prevent this.

A chrono, I gather, won't tell me much about pressure but I should be able to detect consistency(?).
If you're going to be reloading, you should really have a chrono. How else can you tell if you're duplicating factory loads? Recoil and flash aren't going to tell you this.


Or should I just shelve the H110 and start over with a different powder if the intent is consistent duplication of factory ballistics? You should be able to duplicate factory ballistics with H110 (when you get a chrono you can be sure), unless you're trying to duplicate the ballistics of a light target load. H110 doesn't do "light" very well.

H110 is a magnum powder and is not very useful for other applications. There are many other powders (W231, Bullseye, Titegroup) that will allow you to duplicate factory ballistics and still be versatile enough for other applications such as light target loads, auto calibers, etc.

[Hawk]

Assuming versatility isn't an objective, I gather I'm good with the H110 provided I don't go too light. We'll treat 15.3 as a starting load. The 14s all lit off without trauma but I don't see any point in pushing my luck.

The 14 grain loads were the first time I set up my own dies. How in blazes does someone determine a "firm" crimp when they don't know what a "limp crimp" looks like? It looked good; do the 14s lighting off imply that the crimp was firm enough?

I can't picture playing "whack-a-mole" with a bullet puller to compare my crimps to factory rounds being particularly scientific; surely there's a better way?

I could live with not using the H110 but part of why I went there was what appeared to be higher than average velocities without huge pressures. Hodgdon shows Lil Gun superior in that regard and I believe Speer showed N110 with good numbers (don't have it in front of me). The Hodgdon FAQ shows Lil Gun having the same reduced load problems as well as H4227 and Long Shot - presumably 296 is similarly afflicted.

Am I correct in assuming that virtually any powder showing relatively high velocities will have similar "no reduced charge" caveats? Seems fair - the reloading world's TANSTAAFL rule, as it were.

[EddieCoyle]

The 14 grain loads were the first time I set up my own dies. How in blazes does someone determine a "firm" crimp when they don't know what a "limp crimp" looks like?


You should have a visible roll crimp. The top of the case should be slightly rolled into the cannelure (serrated groove) on the bullet. Not so much so that the case bulges just below the top, but enough to see that the very top of the rim is pressed into the cannelure.

Look at a factory round. If your rounds look like that, then you're probably OK. If you can still see some belling around the top of your case, then the crimp is too light. If there's a bulged ring 1/8" or so below the top of the case, then you've overcrimped. You can also measure the diameter of your rounds at various places along the length of the case and compare it to a factory round.


Am I correct in assuming that virtually any powder showing relatively high velocities will have similar "no reduced charge" caveats? Seems fair - the reloading world's TANSTAAFL rule, as it were.

Not always. It really depends on the powder. There are "high velocity" powders that can be downloaded safely, the powders you mentioned are not among them. For example, you can get pretty good velocity out of Alliant Power Pistol and Blue Dot (http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Pistols%20and%20Revolvers&gtypeid=1&weight=158&shellid=1015&bulletid=29) - both of which can be safely downloaded. If you're trying to duplicate a factory .357 load, Blue Dot may be something you'll want to try.

[Hawk]

Thanks. Looks like Blue Dot would have been a better choice for starting out. I'll see if Sportsman's Warehouse has any - I'll be mounting an expedition out there for a chrono anyway. This can get expensive, can't it?

Meantime, I feel like I've got a better handle on the H110 anyway, although I'm glad I only bought 1 pound containers. I'll make the switch to Blue Dot immediately if I can come by it locally.

When H110 lodges the pill in the barrel, I assume it'd also not have much in the way of recoil or sound. In other words, it'd be obvious - something like a minimum Trail Boss load or even less?

[EddieCoyle]

When H110 lodges the pill in the barrel, I assume it'd also not have much in the way of recoil or sound. In other words, it'd be obvious - something like a minimum Trail Boss load or even less?

It'll sound and feel different. When it's happened to me there was no mistaking it.

The H110 will work fine - it's not like it's a squib waiting to happen. Just stick with the recommended charge weights and you'll be OK.

[Sistema1927]

Do yourself a favor. Buy some W231 (Which is the same as HP38). You won't regret it.

[EddieCoyle]

He's looking for full-power loads. W231 won't get him there.

[Bottom Gun]

My experience with H110 has been that the crimp is more important than the amount of powder used.

Years ago I used it to load up some .44 mag and discovered that, even with a case chock full of powder, the powder wouldn't light unless I used a heavy crimp.
Once I went to a heavy crimp, even light loads worked OK, but each time I tried to relax the crimp a little, I ended up with a bullet stuck in the bore.

After pounding four bullets out of my bore, I decided to stop using the H110 and went back to using Unique.

[The Bushmaster]

Oh the hell with it...It all depends, EddieCoyle. If he is shooting a short (under 3") barreled revolver, W-231 will get him some very fast bullets. Where 2400, H110 and W-296 won't. If he is shooting a longer (above 3.5") barreled wheel gun then W-231 is a bad choice. Unless it is used in an semi-auto pistol. Then all bets are off as I have had very good results with W-231 in up to 5" barrels from 9mmX19 and .45 ACP

[Hawk]

FWIW, the H110 and 158 XTP is for a 686 with a 6" bbl.

I've got a shorter 66 - 3" or 4" not sure. I'd picked up some 125 grain XTPs and Unique for that guy but wanted to get the 686 running right first. Full power factory loads in the 66 are unpleasant. XTPs might be overkill in reduced loads but I was leery of leading. W231, from my fora lurking, looked good for anything I'd do with the 66.

My apologies - should have specified 686-6"

[The Bushmaster]

Hawk...Is that 66 a stainless S&W? If so you might have another look at W-231 and that 125 grain JHP. I have a mod 19 S&W 2 1/2" Combat magnum that just loves 7.6 to 7.8 grains of W-231 under a 125 grain SJHP Remington bullet. I'm geting a nice 1100 +/- a few fps from it...

[Hawk]

The 66 is a "dash -2" S&W stainless that was rode hard and put up wet, grinder marks and all. The W231 sounds good - I've already got those 125 XTPs I need to use up.

It probably wouldn't be as unpleasant with full loads but for those itsy-bitsy wooden grips.

[The Bushmaster]

Grinder marks??? Be aware that even at 7.6 grains of W-231 you have a rather warm load even if the book says you can go to 8.1gr. Had to say that...Grinder marks...Wow...

[Hawk]

Yup - rescue mission 66. The right side of the shroud has a bevel that Smith & Wesson never intended. It may have been an attempt to brush out some dents... by someone who brushes out dents with 32 grit Norton pads at 1800 rpm.

Structurally sound, though.

[Hutch]

Take heart, be not afraid of H110. For full-tilt-and-boogie magnum revolver loads, it's the best. (I nearly said "Da Bomb", but didn't want to give you the shivers). Not very flexible, as you've noted, but when you care enough to send the very best, that's a great choice.

[YodaVader]

The H110 will work fine - it's not like it's a squib waiting to happen. Just stick with the recommended charge weights and you'll be OK.


I agree , I lost count of the number of containers of H110 and 296 I have gone through in the nearly 20 years I have been reloading. In the past dozen years I have used these two quite often for 357 and 44 mag loads , never a stuck bullet , never a misfire or squib. The loads I used were all published loads for the specific bullet I was using. The crimp , I just try to duplicate , as close as I can - the crimp you find on a factory round.

The H110 and 296 "twins" have given me some of the most consistent and best accuracy in all the revolvers I have used it in. As well as a single shot TC and 44 mag lever action rifle.

An older lot of AA#9 and 2400 have worked well for me too.

[GooseGestapo]

H110/Win296 work exceptionally well in the .357mag.

However, don't go below 15.7 or exceed 17.0g with the 158gr.
You'll find a good load somewhere between these, or just use the powder measure you have that throws between these.

Do use a Magnum Small pistol or Federal #200 primer.
Do use a moderate to heavy crimp.

Try several steps within this range to find accuracy.

After you run out of powder, Buy Hodgon Lil'Gun......
Best HEAVY magnum powder I've found for the .357mag.
Pressures substantially less than other powders, velocities 50-100fps FASTER.
I prefer #2400 to H110, but thats a LOOOONNG story......... 30yrs of experience and carrying the .357 on-the-job.

Use not MORE than 18.0gr of LilGun. Greater amounts (with 158gr jacketed bullet) dosen't give better results although one gun-scribe recommends 19.0gr). I get best results at 17.8gr (handgun and carbine) and a magnum primer.

Hodgdon actually DOES know what they're doing ..............

[Hawk]

Starting at 16 and possibly going to 17 incrementally looks like a plan.

I notice that all of Speers numbers are below Lyman's "don't go below" numbers and all of Lyman's exceed Speer's "never exceed" numbers.

From EC's earlier post:
Here's some data:
...
Lyman 3rd Edition: Low-16.3, High 17.0
...
Speer Number 13: Low-13.9, High-15.5

How cool is that? I've stumbled across a combination that has NO safe starting load. At least not if one is trying to keep both Speer and Lyman happy.

I did notice that Speer had a 1.57 OAL, Hodgdon a 1.58 and Lyman a 1.59.
The Dillon manual says the bullet should be seated so the case mouth is in the middle of the cannelure. No doubt this would be a 4th OAL.

I'm done worrying about it. 16 is below Lyman's minimum but something has to give.

It's numerically impossible to derive a number which is both below 15.5 and over 16.3. I don't suppose it's possible the OAL variations could skew the results that much?

Just 'tween us here, do old time reloaders have little secrets like "Speer is conservative and will get you in trouble with slow powders" or "Lyman is a bunch of cowboys, their "never exceed" will grenade a Freedom Arms"? Wink, wink, nudge nudge? Just wondering, here.

[dan22644]

Not to highjack the thread, but I have a related question.

Would a Nosler 158gr JHP be ok over H110? I have load data for 110gr XTP and 125gr XTP, but my manual does not specifically say if you should be using an XTP bullet at 158gr. Thanks!

[Hawk]

Hodgdon web site: Low-15.0, High-16.7
Lyman 3rd Edition: Low-16.3, High 17.0
Lee 2nd Edition: Low-15.0, High 16.7
Speer Number 13: Low-13.9, High-15.5

Are all numbers for 158 grain JHP. Hodgdon's web site notes 158 Hndy XTP specifically.

EC provided the above - I've got Lyman and Speer.

Edited to add: Brands aren't clear apart from the XTP - pic looks "right".

[GP100man]

hawk

i shoot a 6"gp100 with 15.5 grs.under a 158gr. cast boolit no problems even with a regular primer!!!
just dont go below13.5 it will give inconsistent burning!!
lil gun no lower than 16gr to burn good.
all my cases are starline
all primers ww small pistol

GP100man

[Hawk]

I just got around to cleaning the 686 after shooting the 14 grain loads - front of cylinder was nasty. Took MP7 and Scotchbrite to get back to where I could see the stainless.

Is that indicative of dubious ignition, or just an H110 thing? I don't recall getting it with any factory rounds.

[CZ57]

Hawk: You can get better performance from AA#9 in .357 Magnum than what you'll get from H110. You'll need to chronograph loads rather than buy into Hodgdon's overly optimistic data. The load range from start to max charges is much broader also. Accuracy can be outstanding. Take a look at the data: http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/35738Cal(9.2mm)/357%20Magnum%20pages%20100%20to%20102.pdf
it is honest and although it isn't stated, the velocities were recorded with a 6" Smith 686.

For shorter barreled .357 Magnums, few will perform better than AA#7.;)

[GP100man]

hawk
all powders burn better at there top loadings, more pressure ,more fire ,qwiker burn!!
when you get a low load detanation youll know it for sure erattic recoil & report from the muzzle is one indication ,the other is you have to pick up the pieces if your able.
i tried to down load lilgun called em on the phone & talked to a tech & he said not to go below16gr. then i asked about 14.0 gr in a gp100 ,he said try it only in the gp & call him back,thats when i experenced erattic detonation,
i didnt like it at all !!
16 grs of lilgun was to strong for my cast boolits so i worked up 15.5gr of h110 ,thats what i hunted with in my GP100
ive now been paid for some service with ww 296 so here we go again !!!

i love it though!!!!!!!

if looking for a mid range loading herco &800x are my favorites ,kind of coarse powders but work ok thru my lee auto disc thats been graphited a little.

GP100man

[pinkymingeo]

I tried 16.0 of LilGun in 357 with a 158 JSP in my 5.5" revolver for 991 fps. Yes, magnum primer and heavy crimp. I've had equally miserable results in 44mag. This week I'm gonna try above 17 up to 17.8 and see if something better happens.

[EddieCoyle]

I tried 16.0 of LilGun in 357 with a 158 JSP in my 5.5" revolver for 991 fps. Yes, magnum primer and heavy crimp. I've had equally miserable results in 44mag. This week I'm gonna try above 17 up to 17.8 and see if something better happens.

For what it's worth, I had poor results at first with Lil' Gun in my .460 revolver. I bumped the charge up to 43.5 grains (from 40.0) and my groups went from 5" at 100 yards to about 1-1/2".

[Hawk]

Portions of North Texas are underwater so I didn't get to try out my brand spankin' new chrony. The indoor range was alive and well, though.

The 16.1 grain loads of H110 behind 158 grain Hndy XTPs were great fun. Subjective recoil was still just under factory Remington 180s.

Being new, I'm not sure I'd recognize pressure signs if any existed, but I understand "sticky" cases are an early indicator (?). If so, I'm still light - cases basically fell out. Still dirtier than factory but "flashier". When I reset the dies I made sure the crimp was plenty tight.

So, I'll run a bunch at 16.4 and see what gives. I want to find something functional then just run a couple hundred. My "set-up" is more production oriented and "working up loads" is a pita. I'm going to have to cave and do something about that soon, I guess. Thanks for the help, all.

[CZ57]

W. Central Texas ain't fairin' much better!;)

[Ranger J]

At first I didn’t like H110 but have come to use it a lot. I don’t load H110 for a pistol but it is my load of choice for my .44 Deerfield. It gives excellent accuracy and cycles great. I have never had any problem getting it to ‘light’ even using standard primers. Even in the rifle the sound and recoil will be somewhat ‘sharp’ as compared to say AA #9 or 2400or factory loads. I like Blue Dot in my .357 for both my 4” pistol and my 1894 Marlin. It will burn somewhat dirty but will be a good powder to start with.
RJ

[C.F. Plinker]

I just got back from the range trying out an H110 load in my Marlin 1895 with the 18.5" barrel. I am using Winchester brass, Winchester small pistol magnum primers, and the 158 gr XTP bullets. Hodgdon's rifle data gives a starting load of 15 grains with a velocity of 1619 fps using the same components as I have. The maximum charge is 16.7 grains yielding a velocity of 1757 fps.

I started off with a 15 grain load. The first shot was off in one corner of the target so I adjusted the sights. The next 4 were in a 3-9/16 group (50 yards) with an average velocity of 1728 fps. This is almost Hodgdon's maximum velocity. the second load was 15.2 grains. The 5 shot group was 1-15/16 and the best 3 of the 5 came in at 9/16". The average velocity was 1776 fps (SD=25) which is above Hodgdon's maximum so I decided to call it a day.

Back at the house I measured the pressure ring expansion. The average for the first group is .3807" and for the second group it is .3812. So the increase is .0005". The flat area of the primer has increased slightly, but there is still a good radius on the outside edge of the primer. Some of the cases were sooty along the front 1/2-2/3 of their length.

Do you think I have found the maximum useable load for this rifle? Should I work down to about 14.4 grains trying to find another good grouping load?

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.