AK74 5.45 vs M16 5.56


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sharpshooter74
June 12, 2007, 10:38 PM
Which bullet is better? You be the judge by looking at this YouTube video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hdLoL0i5Sg&mode=related&search


I'd personally think the 5.45 x 39 AK bullet is superior than the 5.56 nato in that it has better penetration and that it's tumbling and yawing effects are devastating on the body.

I believe the steel core 5.45 russian is effectively better than the SS109

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Loucks
June 12, 2007, 10:42 PM
Wasn't steel core ammunition banned from import, or am I just confused?

TheDisturbed1
June 12, 2007, 11:29 PM
well, isnt all or most of the 5.56x45mm ammo steel cored? or am I confused? :p

nice video, English would be great, but I'm not complaining...

kingpin008
June 13, 2007, 12:35 AM
Once again - might this be better as a post in the Rifle subforum?

Not trying to be rude, just seems like there's been a bunch of posts in odd forums lately.

Outlaws
June 13, 2007, 01:23 AM
The 5.45x39 offers nothing to warrant the extra work in obtaining quality ammunition in the caliber...let alone the extra cost in getting a quality firearm chambered in it that is as accurate as any of the off the shelf AR15s we can go to the corner store and pick up that are extremely accurate for the price.

Plus isn't the speed and trajectory of the 5.56 better anyways?

RockyMtnTactical
June 13, 2007, 01:58 AM
The availability of the 5.56 round makes it the clear winner in my book...

As for "performance", it's not a big enough of a difference to out weigh the availability... not by a long shot.

TheDisturbed1
June 13, 2007, 02:38 AM
Plus isn't the speed and trajectory of the 5.56 better anyways?
yea i believe so

I got an AK in .223 and it hasnt let me down

evan price
June 13, 2007, 07:21 AM
New guy. First post. Hmm.

Sure, the 5.45x39 is the most effective. That's why the former communist countries are dumping it in droves in favor of the 5.56x45 NATO round!

Oh wait...

Gun Wielding Maniac
June 13, 2007, 07:44 AM
Well, actually fella's... Right now 5.45x39mm is running 120 dollars for 1080 rounds of steel core military ball... A third of the price of military surplus ball 5.56. Also, I can buy a new AK-74 for less then a new AR-15... Also, I can buy all the accessories for less then AR accessories.

Ammunition availability is the bugaboo of people without the foresight to stock up when the ammo is cheap. Do you seriously think Wally World is gonna be stocked up on .223 in a Katrina-esque or Zombie World situation? Wroooooooooooooong!

As for the "Accuracy" crap...whatever. This only matters to people who shoot off of benchrests. I shoot military rifle matches, hunt, and occasionally do NRA matches. It isnt the arrow, but the Indian...

Tin Gizel
June 13, 2007, 10:26 AM
I'm having a hard time finding any 5.56 for a reasonable price.

It seems that 5.45 is available and cheap. Cheap and available to the point that I have been considering a ak74. My only issue is I cannot predict how long 5.45 will be cheap and available.

MechAg94
June 13, 2007, 12:17 PM
Wolf 5.45 is available and is close to the .223 Wolf price that is out there. However, that is about the only other ammo I see for sale. Considering Russia is not switching calibers anytime soon, I am sure it will be available through imports for quite some time.

Bartholomew Roberts
June 13, 2007, 02:04 PM
No offense meant; but we have a lot of good references on the subject of terminal ballistics in the Rifle Forum Reading Library tacked to the top of this forum, so you shouldn't need to rely only on a Youtube video to decide which round is "best."

However, the Youtube video shows what most of those show - the 5.45 does not fragment. It yaws and tumbles; but stays usually intact. As a result, it generally has better penetration. The 5.56mm by contrast often deforms and sprays fragments into the temporary cavity, creating a larger permanent cavity. However, it doesn't penetrate as well because of its tendency to breakup.

You can see this demonstrated in the pictures of bullets after penetrating wood. The 5.45 is nice and straight, the 5.56 is deformed. You can also see this in the clay shoots - the 5.56 blows the clay up off the boards as the temporary cavity expands down into the table and then the clay collapses into the empty space. The 5.45 yaws and flips a bit of clay off the top and exits. Comparison of terminal performance of both rounds is in the links I mentioned earlier and 5.56 clearly performs better when intermediate barriers are not present (and sometimes when they are, depending on the barrier).

Outlaws
June 13, 2007, 05:26 PM
As for the "Accuracy" crap...whatever. This only matters to people who shoot off of benchrests. I shoot military rifle matches, hunt, and occasionally do NRA matches. It isnt the arrow, but the Indian...
:cool:
Accuracy doesn't matter to those who can't shoot accurately in the first place.

Take the target past 100 yards and you will see the shortcomings of the AK.

HorseSoldier
June 13, 2007, 05:39 PM
Video says M16A1 in a couple of captions, so we'd be talking about 55 grain M193, rather than SS109 in the tests shown.

Gun Wielding Maniac
June 13, 2007, 11:39 PM
Accuracy doesn't matter to those who can't shoot accurately in the first place.

Take the target past 100 yards and you will see the shortcomings of the AK.

Oh, snap, you really got me there. Of course, I shoot my AK out at 300 meters... and further on occasion. On paper. Scored. No, I'm not interested in a pissing match with you.

So what? The shortcoming of the AK is that internet commando's use the supposed inaccuracy of the weapon as a crutch for their own lack of shooting ability. Instead of blaming themselves, they blame the gun.

Oh wait. You were referring to MATCH SHOOTING... weren't you? I was referring to COMBAT.

BTW... I'm going to a regional military match tomorrow. We'll be shooting out to 500 meters with open sights on scored human silhouettes, using military ball ammo, timed, with no sighters. I actually drink the cool-aid, unlike the ones who just talk about it..

Hunter0924
June 14, 2007, 12:37 AM
Don't confuse match shooting as the edge an AR 15 has over the AK-47. The 5.56 edges the 7.62X39 in velocity and energy devolved to target so the accuracy is just a bonus.
Well aimed shots will be the advantage over spray and pray every time. I participate in service rifle myself.

sharpshooter74
June 14, 2007, 04:28 AM
I own 2 SKS, 2 Romanian AK47, 1 Bulgarian AK74, and 1 DPMS AR-15.

So far my AK74 outperforms my AR-15, in both accuracy and reliability. The farthest I've ever shot with my AK74 was a little over 200 yards. I could shoot 2 inch groups or lesser than that whenever I wanted too. I could do the same with my AR15, but it's just not as fun as the AK74. My AR15 keeps jamming up on me after a couple hundred rounds or so, and that's even after cleaning the gun itself. The only reason I bought my AR15, was because of the massive availability of the .223 (5.56) ammo. It's only a backup rifle for me, just in case I run out of ammo for my AKs.

For those who think that some of the AK's aren't that accurate, I don't think you've guys spent enough time shooting an AK74, to really be the judge of it. Any gun is only as good as the person who shoots it. A lot of my neighbors and friends brag about how their ARs could do 1moa or less, and yet these people couldn't even shoot 3 inch groups or below at a 100 yard range that I go to. My 74 outperformed all of them. For those with ARs that can really shoot, I congradulate them, but in my opinion, the majority who brag about how accurate the ARs are, have absolutely no shooting skills. An accurate AR in the hands of a moron, is pretty useless in my opinion.

I admit that I do love my AR15, but I love my AKs much more.

MechAg94
June 14, 2007, 08:31 AM
I agree that it is the shooter, not the rifle in most cases. Some AK's are inaccurate, but normally they are the cheap Ak's that aren't well built in the first place and have crappy sights. For me, the substandard sights are the biggest impediment, but I can still shoot my AK's pretty accurately.

colt.45
June 14, 2007, 01:01 PM
if you like how the ak did in the penetration test, then load some heavier bullets into an ar-15 and see what it can do. i promise that a 69 or 77 grainer will do much better than the russian round.:D

colt.45
June 14, 2007, 01:10 PM
oh, and sharpshooter74: you do have to admit that the bulgarians are leaps and bounds better than most of the other comon ak's.

buck00
June 14, 2007, 03:56 PM
I have heard a lot of obsessed debate among THR-ites about which round wounds better or kills better. When it comes down to it, what does it matter to us? Are any of us going to carry an AK-74 on patrol in Chechnya or a combat zone?

And let's say the end of the world happened tomorrow and China, the UN, or aliens (or insert paranoid enemy here) invaded. Would a dead center shot on a man with 5.56 or 5.45 make much difference?

I don't think someone shot center-mass with a 5.45 x 39 round is going to laugh, point and say "ha ha, it didn't fragment!"

* There are hundreds of thousands of dead Muslims in Chechnya and Afghanistan who died as 5.45 x 39 rounds tore through their bodies. :evil:

Nomad, 2nd
June 14, 2007, 04:19 PM
Well, I have NO trust in the M16 system, and SS109 is NOT a man stopper.

Gee, what are all of these cases of 5.45x39???
-Don't worry, I just plan on training with it and using my x39 or .308 for 'social needs'

Outlaws
June 14, 2007, 04:40 PM
Why is it always "its the shooter, not the gun"? We are comparing a round and a rifle. You use the same shooter for the comparison. The AR is more accurate - Period. This isn't you with AK/AR vs me with AK/AR. If you shoot match you want the most accuracy you can get. If its a monetary issue, fine, but that doesn't make the one you own better than the other one. If a friend can't hit the broad side of a barn, so what? When shooting offhand, wouldn't it be nice to have a rifle that can group tight? That way if you miss, its because you missed....not because it is a 3 MOA rifle.

mpmarty
June 14, 2007, 04:53 PM
I don't think anybody in this discussion is talking high power competition type accuracy. The discussion is relative stopping power and I fail to see the point in the discussion. Both the 5.45 and 5.56 are inadequate, period. A round that is not capable of being legal in most states to shoot a one hundred pound deer is certainly not qualified for two hundred pound agressive and armed combatants intent on doing you harm. Yeah, spray and pray is fine until you're the guy spraying and praying. I like my Arsenal AK in 5.45 X 39 it is fun to shoot, accurate enough and ammo is cheap and plentiful.. On the other hand, I keep my hand in with my 7.62X51, 7mm Rem Mag and 450 Marlin "just in case".

Evil Monkey
June 14, 2007, 07:22 PM
Uh-oh....I can smell it!!! 223 vs 308 is coming up! :D :D :D

By the way, can some one see the ridiculousness in this sentence? As if he decides what's adequate and what's not.
Both the 5.45 and 5.56 are inadequate, period.

ATC
June 14, 2007, 08:15 PM
The world is covered with the graves of victims of .22 caliber bullets, both Eastern and Western. That's good enough for me.

5.45 is by far my favorite all-around caliber because I don't spend much time shooting at paper.

MechAg94
June 14, 2007, 09:07 PM
Texas only says you have to shoot deer with center fire ammo. How many states actually say you can't shoot .223? Of course, I wouldn't count states that restrict a lot of rifle ammo or say shotguns only.

Me, I just think it is fun to shoot light and handy rifles.

Gun Wielding Maniac
June 14, 2007, 09:22 PM
A couple of 150 LB mulies would tell you about how adequate the 5.45x39mm was if they were able...

People try and make black and white distinctions between the accuracy of the AK and the AR. However, when the two combat rifles (not match rifles) shooting ball ammo at human sized targets are compared side by side at the same distance, there really isnt much differance between them. I say this is a small arms trainer who in the last two years has put thousands of soldiers through qualifications.

People talk about theoretical accuracy... Shooting ball ammo, the M16A2 is only required to shoot, as I recall, 2.5 MOA from the factory. On average, a human being is 20 inches from shoulder to shoulder. 300 meters, which is the max distance for qualification, requires only 6 MOA... which is well within the capabilities for any AK. In fact, I've never seen an AK shoot worse then 4 MOA. Excuses.

Nomad, 2nd
June 14, 2007, 09:24 PM
2 of those POS WASR2's would do 'head shots' offhand at 100 meters.

And they WERE POS's!

Frog48
June 14, 2007, 10:05 PM
I'd personally think the 5.45 x 39 AK bullet is superior than the 5.56 nato in that it has better penetration and that it's tumbling and yawing effects are devastating on the body.

Which is better? Lets put it this way... I wouldnt want to be shot by either of them, either way it'll ruin your day.

alucard0822
June 14, 2007, 11:15 PM
5.56 and 5.45 are comprable in most ways. There is no real world evidence to completely discount one over the other. I think that both do have some unique strengths and weaknesses that are inherent in the design of the rounds and the rifles that fire them, mainly velocity vs grain weight and fragmentation vs yawing. If a 69gr SMK is used in 5.56 vs a 70gr fmj in 5.45 the differences should be next to nothing. As far as accuracy goes, if say the M-16 can obtain 2MOA and the AK-74 can obtain 3 MOA clamped in a vise that would only equate to a 12" vs an 18" spread at 600 yds, and in battlefield conditions where shooting standing, or off of an improvised rest are going to be the main styles, then there would be little to no difference. I personally enjoy shooting both, the 74 being a lot cheaper to feed, and the generally crappy performance of wolf in an AR, means that with the present state of ammo cost, more and more people will hopefully broaden their collections to include this great chunk of commie steel.

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