[WonderNine]

It appears my BHP is still shooting left after taking it out to the range this morning. I had the suspicion when I took it out right after I got the rear sight put on, but this confirmed it. This is the same model I had to adjust the rear millet sight on all the way to the right to get it to group decent at 25 yards. I included a couple pics of the target:

30 shot group @ approx. 30-35 yards. The very first shot missed the target and hit the upper left just outside the yellow line.

http://bis.midco.net/cotlod/target1.jpg

http://bis.midco.net/cotlod/target2.jpg

To say the least, I'm not happy with these results. I shot about 200-250 rounds this morning and this group was done after I had shot about 50 rounds through the gun. As is shown the rounds hit disproportionately to the left with only a few rounds hitting right and the ones that did were only about an inch right of center.

I did 15 shot groups on the smaller square sized targets and the results were similiar. I have the fixed sights on my gun now. Looking at the gun I cannot see anything that is crooked and lockup seems to be very straight. The sights are perfectly straight. Am I in need of a new barrel perhaps? The gun only has about 2 grand through it.

What kind of warranty does my Hi-Power have if any? I might consider sending it back to Browning to have them look it over.

Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

Here is a link to my old thread on this:

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39632&highlight=left

The Browning Hi-Power original had the factory millet adjustable sights when I originally had the problem and now I have two new fixed white sites. The front sight flew off from shooting it in extreme cold weather so I replaced them both. My groups at ten yards appear to be centered or as much as two inches to the left, I will try and get a shot of a ten yard group tonight or whenever I get back down to the range.

[Bren]

Do you shoot other BHP's?

It could be the bushing which is soldered in. Bren

[WonderNine]

No, I don't have any other HP's right now. I'm a poor boy with only a few guns and a crappy digital camera. Help me!!! :D lol. Are you talking about the barrel bushing? I'll take a look at it.

[Mal H]

This is not a dig, WonderNine, just an observation. The target you posted cannot be considered a "group" (the pix are both of the same target, right?). It looks more like you took a 9mm shotgun to the target. If the majority of the shots were in. say, a 4" group to the left, then I would say it could be the gun or, more likely, the sights. Quite honestly, I think the problem may lie in your technique. Do you have much better success with other guns? Do you get different results when resting the pistol on a steady perch? Has anyone else tried shooting the BHP with better or the same results?

This is not to say that there isn't something seriously wrong with the pistol. But, IMX, the shooter is much more often at fault than the gun.

[WonderNine]

I agree still that it could be me, but I'm starting to believe that the gun is truly at fault.

My father also shot it a couple weeks ago right before shooting his Beretta when I first got the fixed sites on the HP and he ALSO thought it shot to the left. If I go out again tonight I'm going to take his Beretta 92 with me and see what the results are. A friends got a 6.5" Blackhawk that I've done very well with and not shot to the left as far as I can tell either.

The shots on the target WERE done from a benchrest and I have serious doubts that most people can do any better "groups" than that at 30-35 yards. That's true yards not feet. At that distance the front sight covers the entire bullseye.

[iamkris]

edited to remove stupid question:)

[WonderNine]

I don't want to have crooked sights. I want to get the thing shooting straight with straight sights.

[Gunfyter]

A couple questions come to mind from my own experiences. Are you shooting with one or both eyes open? I have a tendency to shoot my Kimber .45 the same way unless I'm REALLY concentrating. To try and detrermine if it's the guns fault, try shooting a magazine weakhand and then stronghand. It may be an eye dominance thing.

[WonderNine]

I always shoot with left eye closed when target shooting.

[Gunfyter]

Ok, are you pushing forward with your gun hand and pulling back wth the weakhand? The ergonomics do work. In the DP school I attended, they stressed that and more importantly, CONCENTRATE ON YOUR FRONT SIGHT. The target and rear sight will blur a bit, but you keep on concentrating on the front sight. Try saying it as you shoot, " front sight, press". The gun should go off on press.

[BigG]

Honestly, Mal, I don't think that is a bad group - certainly not a shotgun pattern. Maybe it's the itty bitty holes? If they were .45 holes that hole would be one contiguous ragged hole.

If it is WunderNine's technique that is doing it, at least he is doing it consistently! ;)

[Gunfyter]

That kind of shooting at 30 - 35 yards is good with a handgun. Don't beat yourself up over this. Try some other folks guns and see if the "problem" persists. You can always trade for a .45. :D

[WonderNine]

Ok, are you pushing forward with your gun hand and pulling back wth the weakhand? The ergonomics do work. In the DP school I attended, they stressed that and more importantly, CONCENTRATE ON YOUR FRONT SIGHT. The target and rear sight will blur a bit, but you keep on concentrating on the front sight. Try saying it as you shoot, " front sight, press". The gun should go off on press.

I'm sure I'm not pushing on the gun with my weak hand. In fact nowadays I always shoot with my left hand underneath the magwell.

Typically I concentrate on the front sight and then concentrate on the target before I shoot letting the front sight blur. I'll try concentrating on the front sight and just letting the target blur instead. See if that helps. Gonna go to work now. I'll probably be reading and responding at work though. :D Be back in a while.

[Gunfyter]

Your grip should be like one fist with the pistol in between. Take the gun in your right hand and grip it as high as you can but still avoid hammer bite. Left hand comes up to right, thumbs are parallel, left fingers wrapping around right hand with first finger under the trigger guard. Everything locked together. Now, push forward with the right hand and pull back with the left. CONCENTRATE. You now have an excuse to go shooting.

[WonderNine]

Thanks, I'll try that grip instead. That's the way I used to shoot. I don't see the need though for pushing and pulling with either hand. Is it supposed to make the gun more stable when you pull the trigger?

[Gunfyter]

Ergonomics. Now you don't have to try and overpower the grip, just steady pressure. All I know is that if I'm shooting and the bullets are landing to the left of the target, I bear down on the grip, focus on the front sight and viola, nice tight groups in the center.

[Gunfyter]

Been thinking about all of this. Have you tried varying your stance? I was taught to face the target and then turn slightly to the right. Try moving left or right of the centerline to the target. Last but not least, have you checked your front sight to see if it's centered on the slide?

[WonderNine]

Yes, checked over ever minute detail of the gun. I've been shooting from a benchrest so stance would not be the issue.

[Gunfyter]

Fun, isn't it? Been doing this for 48 years and it still drives me nuts from time to time. Have you let someone else shoot the gun? An independent party? Try that. Or, like I said earlier, trade her in for a 1911 :D

[Gunfyter]

Have you taken the mag safety out of the gun? I have a BHP too and after shooting my Kimber, I can't hit anything with it. Just a bad trigger. It becomes trade bait this weekend at the local gunshow. I still think the front sight thingy is your best bet.

[Old Fuff]

WonderNine:

If this hasn't been done, consider having the front of the slide dovetailed and a new front sight mounted in it. Then you can modify windage at both ends. The problem could be caused by many things, but if you don't discover something obvious this is a good and easy solution.

I often remove the original front sight on heavy-barreled S&W fixed-sight revolvers (such as the model 13) and have a dovetail milled where it was. Then I can zero the gun for any particular load by moving the new sight to correct for windage and file the blade down to correct for elevation.

Life is too short to let this get too you. Good luck.

[Sean Smith]

Hmm... depending on how big that target is, that might be good, medium, or bad shooting. :D

The natural tendency for most people seems to be to pull shots to the left if they aren't fully adapted to the gun. I've seen that quite a bit (including with myself & guns I'm not familiar with), so being that far off-center at 30-35 yards could just be an artifact of shooter technique.

Those sights really aren't that far off for fixed sights. Just drift the sights over a bit and you'll be dead on. And there is no way in hell Browning will "fix" the POI on a gun that you removed the factory sights from. And you need to shoot tens of thousands more rounds to be in any danger of shooting out the barrel on that gun (figure 50,000 at the low end).

There COULD be something wrong with the gun. Maybe the front sight isn't quite where it should be. Or maybe shooting past 25 yards with a stock BHP trigger is going to be an exercise in frustration pretty much no matter what you do... stock BHP trigger suck pretty badly, and most people going for serious accuracy at 25+ yards use much better triggers.

You might just want to have a good BHP 'smith like Ted Yost give it the once-over and maybe a trigger job. With any luck somebody qualified might realize that it just needs a $15 barrel re-crown or a new front sight to be dead on out to 25+ yards. If it is a hardware problem, a good 'smith could diagnose it and fix it for cheap in no time.

[Al Thompson]

Just how big is that 10 ring? :confused:

Have you tried other brands of ammo?

[WonderNine]

@Smith

I really don't want to move the sights as they are perfectly centered. The front sight is centered in the middle of the barrel opening and the rear sight is centered with the firing pin. And the firing pin is hitting the primers exactly in the center.

@Thompson

The ten ring is 7" across. I've been using only Winchester 9mm NATO lately, but I need to pick up some more targets so I'll probably pick up a couple different boxes of ammo, but I don't see how that would make a difference, I've shot different ammo through it with the same results.

[Bren]

I asked if you had other BHP's to see if maybe you shoot this gun different.

Shooting other type guns wont tell much because they have different triggers and grips.

FORGET about 35 freaking yards and rest the thing at 7yards and use both hands. Then you can bitch. Also let others shoot the gun. Bren

[WonderNine]

Gunfyter, yes I've removed the magazine safety. Sorry, forgot the answer that. The trigger pull is actually not that bad. A hair heavier than my father's Beretta 92, but less creepy. I like the trigger, but it could be a little lighter.

Bren, you don't use your sights in a 7 yard gunfight, so what's the point? I'm gonna get this thing shooting straight at 30 yards or know the reason why.

[Old Fuff]

The fact that the sights are centered on the slide is meaningless, because the barrel may not be concentric to the slide (especially at the muzzle). Or the way your individiual eye sees the sights may be the cause. More often then not if the sights are centered I tend to shoot slightly to the right. Getting an exact zero for a particular gun/load/individual is the reason to have adjustable sights, or to adjust fixed sights to the degree they can be adjusted.

One time the members of our small-bore shooting team tried an experiment. In each case the pistol that belonged to a shooter was zeroed for that person. But when we exchanged guns and fired a slow-fire string each gun was off for that other person - sometimes a little, and sometimes a lot.

I would be much more interested in getting a gun to shoot point-of-aim/point-of-impact then worrying about having the sights centered. Face it - guns are different, even within a certain make and model, and people shoot them differently.

[Gordy Wesen]

"When groups are offest to the left and circular one can assume that the firing-hand wrist is offset to the right. It does not take much mis-alignment to cause this effect and it's easy to fix.
Move the hand around the frame until the wrist aligns with the vertical axis.
Unfortunately the fat frame and long trigger reach can frustrate the most ardent."
___________________

Wish I had said that, but it comes from "the Modern Technique of the Pistol". p.146

[BigG]

Since firearms recoil away from any solid support, your grip must be consistent or the group center will change as your grip shifts. That's one of the infuriating things about pistol shooting. Your pistol appears to be shooting within spec to me.

[Sean Smith]

The fact that the sights are centered on the slide is meaningless, because the barrel may not be concentric to the slide (especially at the muzzle).

Bingo.

[Gerald McDonald]

I think Bren is right, move to 7 yards and bring your group size down to a level that you can tell whats happening. At 35 yards your all over the target so its impossible to tell if its technique or gun problem from a photo.
I was taught that the sights are there to be used, and 7 yards is far enough away that they are useful, also agree that it makes no difference if the sights are centered or not.

[Kingknives]

I agree, move it a bit closer, double and triple check your technique, have someone observe you or video tape yourself if possible. Also, use a bench rest. Even if it's just a couple of small sand bags. The adjust your sights as needed. They very well may not be "centered".

Good luck,
Joe

[WonderNine]

See my new thread on this

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28699

[spacemanspiff]

i have the same problem, i shoot to the left of POA. but with careful concentration i can over come that obstacle. but that in itself is very difficult. i have a tough time slowing myself down. my trigger finger just wants to keep going faster and faster, while i'm saying "Slow Down!"

my first shot will go right where i aim it 90% of the time. that tells me i do the right thing with my first shot. after that it all goes down hill, whether i'm shooting my steyr or my kimber.

my next range visit will address where i place my finger on the trigger, as well as how tight i'm gripping with my strong hand.

my best group came from 40 shots (5 mags) through my kimber, at 7 yards without using the sights, just instinctive shooting. the first 8 shots were all touching, and drifted horizontally, about a 3 inch group. the next 4 mags opened that up to about 7 inches, with 3 flyers.