Taurus "The Judge" Can it fire +P Ammo in 45 LC?


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DetroitStudent
June 13, 2007, 02:58 PM
Has anyone tried to fire 45 + P in the Judge by Taurus. Is it possible? Do you get cylinder lockups/etc?

Tell me what kind of ammo you used/buffalo bore/corbon etc.

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KaceCoyote
June 16, 2007, 07:51 PM
Also interested, anyone called Taurus yet?

christcorp
June 16, 2007, 07:57 PM
I'm not saying you can or you can't, BUT my reloading manuals still say "Ruger Only" on the hot loads. You are best off contacting Taurus and asking them what the higher pressure, speeds, and bullet weights can be put in that gun. The Ruger Blackhawk specifically says that it can use the hotter loads for hunting. (Or whatever else you want +/- 44 mag specs for. Later... Mike....

ArchAngelCD
June 16, 2007, 08:52 PM
I took a look at a lot of .410 loads and none exceed 13,800 PSI. I thought looking at the 410 data I could figure out id hot .45 LC loads could be used but that was no help. Standard .45 LC loads match the .410 numbers but the hot .45 LC numbers are 20,000 PSI and up. (Some above 38,000 PSI) I would say asking Taurus is the only way to be safe but I have a feeling the answer is going to be no for the hot loads.

bakert
June 16, 2007, 10:47 PM
Not Me!!! Think I would stick with the regular loads.

Sistema1927
June 16, 2007, 11:08 PM
Is there such a thing as a .45 Colt +P?

There are the "Ruger only" loads, and Buffalo Bore loads some that they call "+P" but is there a SAAMI definition for +P in the .45 Colt?

Do you need something more powerful than the 225 Winchester Silvertip? If so then maybe you want a .44 Magnum.

Burt Blade
June 16, 2007, 11:21 PM
My advice is:

If the gun is a Colt or clone, never, ever use ammunition that exceeds SAAMI specifications for .45 Colt. The Colt Peacemaker is a wonderful design, but even with modern metals is has very little excess metal in the cylinder. Anything that is built as a replica was never intended for high-pressure loads.

If you want to shoot "moose stomper" loads in a .45, get a Ruger.

RevolvingCylinder
June 17, 2007, 02:59 AM
Is there such a thing as a .45 Colt +P?

There are the "Ruger only" loads, and Buffalo Bore loads some that they call "+P" but is there a SAAMI definition for +P in the .45 Colt?

Do you need something more powerful than the 225 Winchester Silvertip? If so then maybe you want a .44 Magnum.
Actually, the .45 Colt is a superior platform for "magnum" power. Its larger usable case capacity allow for .44 Remington Magnum performance at lower pressures or superior performance at higher pressures. Most of the reloading manuals I have have a section for ".45 Colt +P". It says for Ruger or other strong revolvers.

For those that don't know, the Taurus "Judge" is a double-action revolver that is chambered in .410 and accepts .45 Colt cartridges.

Sistema1927
June 17, 2007, 04:11 PM
Actually, the .45 Colt is a superior platform for "magnum" power.

I don't disagree. In a Ruger (not the "new" Vaquero) or an 1892 is can be loaded way up there. However, there is no "+P" standard for .45 Colt, and Taurus isn't advertising their revolver to handle loads above the SAAMI standard.

Also, it is amazing just how much performance you can get out of standard pressure loads. As a result, my original advice still stands.

suemarkp
June 17, 2007, 08:22 PM
The manual for this gun says (and their manuals are generic and most guns get the same book) the the limit for this gun is:

45 Colt - 250gr @ 900 ft/sec

You can certainly experiment, and the chambers are real long so you could use shallowly seated heavy bullets. But do so at your own risk, as pressure isn't the only thing that wrecks guns.

Note that 1/2 oz is around 220 grains. So don't expect to get much over 900 ft/sec in shot loads unless you load them lighter shot payloads.

christcorp
June 17, 2007, 09:06 PM
Well, I have a 44 mag Super Blackhawk and I had (just sold) a Ruger Blackhawk 45lc. I loaded up the 45lc with Ruger only hot loads for a hunting trip. (Not my primary weapon, that was a rifle. Just a backup for very short shots). Anyway; after shooting my Elk; with my 7mm Mag; I had time to burn. I decided to help my buddy find an elk of his own. He shot his elk, but it didn't go down right away. When we got within about 30 feet, he asked if he could use my 45lc to put him out of his misery. He shoots 44 mag all the time, but figure what the hell; we're here. After he pulled the trigger, I thought he was going to piss his pants. He looked at me and said that "He didn't see that coming".

Shooting a Ruger blackhawk 45lc hot load is definitely an experience. I won't say that it's more powerful than a 44 mag. Just different. Don't know how to explain it. If you were use to shooting 45lc out of a blackhawk, and I slipped in a hot load without you knowing it, you would probably kick my ass. It doesn't have the load crack sound/feel like a 44 mag. It's like comparing Grandma smacking your rear end with a switch (44 mag) compared to getting smacked with a pool stick (45lc). They both hurt like hell, just different. You can buy factory Ruger only Hot Loads. I suggest if anyone has a 45lc blackhawk and hasn't tried a hot load in it yet, then you've got to try it out. Actually, after the first couple, you get use to it fast. I personally like it much better than the 44 mag. I just don't have a need for either anymore. Anyway, go to the range (Outdoor only) and load the first 3 with regular loads. Load the 4th with a hot load. Then the 5th and 6th with regular again. It's a pretty good feeling. Later... Mike.....

buford1
June 18, 2007, 03:17 AM
Exactly what is 45lc, I have heard of 45 Colt, is lc a new cartridge.

TimboKhan
June 18, 2007, 03:56 AM
Buford:

.45 Colt and .45 Long Colt are the exact same round. All it is is two different ways of saying the same thing.

mnrivrat
June 18, 2007, 03:59 AM
no

christcorp
June 18, 2007, 10:37 AM
Yea, both the 45 colt and 45lc are the same. In military jargon, the 45ACP was, and to an extent, still a very popular caliber for their hand guns. Everyone is familiar with the 1911-A1 45acp. Well, the majority of them used was made by Colt. There was also some Springfield Armory, but mostly Colt. Well, people starting using both the ACP and the LONG colt a lot more. Matter of fact, there are a lot of 45 Colt revolvers that have moon clips to allow you to shoot 45acp through them. Anyway, it got quite confusing to ask someone to get you some ammo for your 45 colt. "You mean 45acp for your 1911 made by colt, or 45 ammo for your colt revolver". After a while, the revolver caliber just started being referred to as the "LONG COLT" because it was about twice as long as an 45acp round. Later... Mike...

johndoe1027
June 18, 2007, 04:07 PM
The manual for this gun says (and their manuals are generic and most guns get the same book) the the limit for this gun is:

45 Colt - 250gr @ 900 ft/sec
Yep, some of the +P loadings I found (awhile back) were within this specification. At least that's what I remember.

Just get these. (http://www.outdoorsuperstore.com/product.asp?prod=320097)
Load two or three of those for "stopping" power then finish it off with 410 slugs for penetration. I like to start out with a 000 buck personally. My old load was one 000 buck, 4 gold dots. :evil:

I used to think that the 410 slug was the greatest "handgun" round until I did the math. 1/5 oz = 87.5 gr :( - - - Now of course its moving at about 1600 fps so some people would take that over 250 gr at 800 fps any day.

Wedge
June 18, 2007, 04:46 PM
I would not load a non Ruger/Freedom Arms/TC with a Ruger only load.

NavyLCDR
June 18, 2007, 05:03 PM
From page 9 of the Taurus Revolver manual:

“Plus-P’, “PIus-P-Plus” or other ultra or high velocity ammunition generates
pressures significantly in excess of the pressures associated with standard
ammunition. Such pressures may affect the useful life of the firearm or
exceed the margin of safety built into many revolvers and could therefore be
DANGEROUS.

But according to page 4 of Taurus catalog:
+P RATED FOR DUTY USE®
All Taurus handguns are engineered to accept a steady
diet of factory-new Plus-P (+P) ammunition built to SAAMI
specifi cations. This includes the Ultra-Lite hammer forged
aluminum alloys, Titanium, blue steel and stainless steel
models. Rest assured, your Taurus will be ready, especially
when you’re counting on it.

So who knows....

kennygj
June 29, 2007, 11:40 PM
I called taurus today and they said no way can you use +p ammo. Does anyone know the bore diameter. Taurus could not tell me. I read that the older guns where .451 and newer guns where .454.

MCgunner
June 30, 2007, 09:53 AM
A definite vote for NO from me. The Buffalo Bore +Ps are for STRONG guns like the Blackhawk and the Judge is NOT such a gun. The only guns those +Ps should be fired in are Rugers or .45 Colt barrels on a contender. My hot handloads, in the realm of Buffalo Bore performance, might just frag a Taurus. No way I'd ever try it, no way Jose! There's really no need for that level of power out of that thing, anyway. These loads mimic the hottest .44 magnum loads. If you're not shooting a gun that was designed to handle the .44 magnum, don't even think about it.

As to bore diameter, slug it and measure.

I really wonder how Buffalo Bore gets away with their .45 loads in a litigious society like ours and how many have blown up lesser guns with their loads? Things were a little safer for the nimrod .45 Colt shooter back when only handloaders could play with such loads. It was years before Speer and others even published such load data in their manuals for fear of lawsuit. .44 mag level .45 Colt loads were a hush, hush under the table cult thing for the well informed and rather brave handloader. LOL

When you think of +P for other calibers like .38 or 9mm, you're really not talking about all that much more than standard pressure ammo. +P in .45 Colt takes on a whole nuther meaning. They down right HURT to shoot in my big, heavy Contender and I shoot that gun in .30-30 Winchester. They're much easier to shoot in my Blackhawk with the roll it gives on recoil to dissipate recoil energy. It is not unlike shooting heavy .44 mag loads.

Nightcrawler
June 30, 2007, 10:06 AM
Here are some good defensive loads that should be safe in your gun.

Buffalo Bore STANDARD PRESSURE (http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#low45)

Corbon 200 grain JHP (https://dakotaammo.net/shop/product_info.php?cPath=21_46&products_id=76) Cor-Bon states that this ammunition is "+P", though they didn't used to. I've used this load many times in my old Model 25-5 without issue, so I wouldn't worry about using it in a Taurus.

Georgia Arms 200 Grain Gold Dot (http://www.georgia-arms.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2628) Same velocity as the Cor-Bon and Buffalo Bore loads of the same bullet weight, but costs less.

Winchester 225 grain Silvertip (http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/handgundetail.aspx?symbol=X45CSHP2&cart=NDUgQ29sdA==)

gmhamilton3
January 16, 2008, 12:47 PM
I have a Taurus 410/45 on order and having read the previous posts do not see taking the risk of using +P in this gun. The Judge is a self defense weapon not a true hunting pistol for big game. Speer's has a 250 gr. JHP with MV=900 ME=450 and a 200 gr. JHP with MV=1000 ME=444. Either of these loads are more than sufficient for the intended purpose. In contrast, I currently carry a S&W in .38 special loaded with Rem. 110 gr. SJHP with MV=950 ME=220, so you can see that even though I am comfortable with my S&W, the Judge is quantum leap forward in personal protection. I cannot post anything about the performance of the gun until I take it to the range but I do like the combination of 000 buck and 45LC at close quarters.

roscoe
January 17, 2008, 03:33 AM
No

Way!

mreid74
March 1, 2008, 12:15 AM
I have a titanium Taurus Judge 3" bbl chamered for 3" Magnums. As far as I know, I was one of the first to get one. The manual clearly states that all of their ultralight titanium models will safely fire +p loads. I was apprehensive for a while, but curiosity got the best of me and I finally shot several cor-bon .45lc +p 225gr DPX out of it with no problems. Recoil is also no problem, even with the lightweight titanium construction... makes a lot louder boom than cowboy loads tho. :)

Jim March
March 1, 2008, 01:13 PM
+P normally means "10% over-pressure". Which explains that blanket use of the term in the manual.

In 45LC, the term "45LC+P" goes way, WAY past that. It's the one caliber I know of where you do NOT screw around.

Buffalo Bore has a 325gr @ 1,300fps load - the Taurus Judge can indeed fire that. ONCE and once only.

mreid74
March 2, 2008, 02:47 AM
Most factory loads vary about 10-15%. A plus p will can add up to 50% or more power. If you disagree, I will gladly let you shoot my titanium judge with no disclaimer. I still have all of my fingers and factory warranty. It still makes a lot louder boom than a cowboy load. :) . Taurus Manual P. 11 "These Taurus Titanium revolvers are designed to withstand the regular use of +p jacketed ammunition. However, we do not recommend that you utilize +p lead bullet ammunition as the typically light crimp on the lead bullets could could cause some of them to unseat from the case, moving forward in the chaber, and possibly blocking the cylinder's rotation."

sheltongrn
May 3, 2008, 09:15 AM
FYI for the ++P++ of your life, make sure that this round is the last shot in your chamber and the bad guy is very close to you and there is no way out...

suemarkp
May 3, 2008, 07:37 PM
It won't fit, at least it won't fit in mine. There is a lip in the cylinder where the 45 Colt case ends. A 454 case won't seat all the way, and a 460 S&W stops way short of where it needs to go. The only long brass case that will fit is a 444 Marlin, and even then the bullets must be deep seated. Nothing with a 45 cal bullet will fit if the case is longer than 45 colt, because the chamber past the lip is only about .452 in diameter (so there is no room for brass around the bullet). That is why the 444 Marlin fits -- the OD of the loaded case is .450 at the crimp. But the bullet won't engage the rifling (.429 bullet in the .451 barrel).

unlearned69
July 1, 2008, 10:15 PM
Now that would be cool. A 454/410 Judge. Pretty sure I wouldn't want one in titanium though. I bet that would give you a nice smack on the hand.

scrat
July 2, 2008, 03:15 AM
Ok i have been shooting some 45 LC the old way. Winchester large pistol primer, Goex 3f black powder, 300 grain lrn. Anyhow i thought the recoil, sound and smoke was all normal. Then a few months ago i was low on ammo did not have the time to reload or anything so i go into big 5 and buy a box of Remington Express 45 long colt. Ok. $45.99 that will never happen again. So last time i was at the range i started to shoot my loads. Then put some cleaning patches through the gun. Then pulled out the Remington 45 lc. Wow what a difference. The Remington felt like i was shooting a 22. Very very mild not that loud either. So i say if your looking for a stellar round you need to try out bp rounds. As for the remington. Well lets just say im glad im out of them Because i dont have any plans on shooting them again.

scrat
July 2, 2008, 03:18 AM
Ok i hear a lot of talk about 45 lc. Whats 45lc and 45 colt.
First the exchanges.

The .45 Colt is the basis for the much more powerful .454 Casull cartridge, with the .454 Casull having a slightly longer and stronger case. Any .454 Casull revolver will also chamber and fire .45 Colt, but the inverse is impossible due to the Casull's longer case.

The .460 S&W Magnum is an even longer version of the .454 Casull and the .45 Colt. Likewise, .460 Magnum revolvers can also chamber and fire the two lesser calibers, but again, the inverse is impossible.

The .45 ACP round produces inferior game killing ability, as it cannot use heavyweight bullets. It uses a much shorter overall cartridge length, with faster burning powders and higher chamber pressures, allowing it to be used in more compact autoloading pistols and submachine guns. Because of this, the .45 ACP is superior to the .45 Colt for military purpose

scrat
July 2, 2008, 03:21 AM
The debate over whether there is a .45 "Long" Colt cartridge is an on-going one that has been active for probably 75 years. Elmer Keith alluded to the arguments many years ago when he wrote "...Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during and after World War I they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long..." (Elmer Keith, Sixguns, page 285)


As far as I know there have never been any .45 Colt cartridges head-stamped "Long" and though I have reports of old cartridge boxes marked "45 Long" I have never personally seen any. Mr. Keith referred to them from time to time as "long" Colt's (with a small "L"). If you have ever seen the short Colt .45's you can understand why.

The Winchester .45 Colt's that Paco and I have came from Shootist Keith Owlett who gave them to us a short time before he passed on. The cartridge box is deteriorated and I have it put



away now - at least what's left of it. But it is plainly marked ".45 Colt Government". The head-stamp on the cartridges is ".45 Colt" ... BUT these are SHORT .45 Colts! The head-stamp is the same as the longer .45 Colts, even down to the "W" on the primers.

These are not S&W or Schofield cartridges. The rim diameter is the same as the long .45 Colts, which is smaller than the Schofield rim diameter. These are true .45 Short Colts. The cartridge is listed in Cartridges of the World on page 306 as ".45 Colt - .45 Colt Government".

I can visualize someone walking into a hardware store around the turn of the last century and asking for a box of .45 Colt's. As the clerk pulls down a box the customer says, "Not the short ones. I want the Long Colts!" and the name ".45 Long Colt" came down to us as a "user-applied" name, not a factory name.



While I can't prove it, I believe the usage was common since Colt had factory cartridges like the .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .41 Short Colt and the .41 Long Colt.

I pulled one of the .45 shorts apart and weighed and measured it. The case is 1.1" long. The powder charge was black powder, approximately 28 grains. The bullet weighed right at 230 gr. and was lubed with a white chalky-looking substance. I fired one from my Ruger 7 1/2" barreled .45 and it went through the chronograph at near 750 fps.

Today after looking at all this and all the years we have been calling the 45 colt. 45 Long Colt even Colt itself refers to the 45 Long Colt. However you still can not find a box of ammo labeled 45 Colt. Same time we must remember that the 45 Long Colt was designed a long time ago and for years after its birth was labeled as the big slow slug. Yet with its slow speed it has served its time in history and has been a very important piece of American History.

http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/revolvers.asp

wd6bgn
September 8, 2008, 01:52 PM
Hi, and great forum.
I just got off the phone with corbon. Funny thing, the tec guy also shoots a Judge (3" chamber & 3" barrel). So I asked him about shooting the 200 gr +P ammo.

Here is about what he said. On his gun they ran 200 rounds through it and showed no problems at all. No sticking cases, no pushed primers, and no loosning of the crain. So for part time use, it should be OK. Not really for 100 rounds a weekend, week after week. (At $27.00 for 20 rounds that might be a bit expensive.) He also mentioned that this round for for defence.

So I wouldn't go for the super rounds, but you can push it a bit.

BTW, on my Judge (2.5" cl, 3" barrel) the rated 1100 fps round measured about 950 fps. Still about 500 foot pounds of energy.

Cheers to all, from North East Missouri.

Elvishead
September 9, 2008, 04:57 AM
.45 Colt +P 300gr. Controlled Exp. JHP 50rds. $42.95

Click to enlarge
This is the load that you've been waiting for! Deep penetration, controlled expansion, and match-grade accuracy make this load very hard to beat! The 300gr Controlled Expansion JHP expands perfectly at these speeds and makes your .45 Colt into an excellent deer and elk pistol. These loads are safe in all large frame Ruger revolvers, TC Contender, Colt Anaconda, and Freedom Arms firearms. These loads are safe in all modern Model 1892 leverguns as well as all Winchester & Marlin 1894's. DO NOT USE IN ANY OTHER FIREARM. THESE ARE NOT STANDARD PRESSURE CARTRIDGES!

Caliber : .45 Colt +P

Bullet : 300gr. Controlled Expansion JHP

Ballistics : 1325fps - 1170 ft./lbs. - 7.5" bbl.
1688fps from a 16.5" carbine

Box of 50rds.

Captain
September 9, 2008, 10:19 AM
I put over 100 rds of hot +P loads thru my Judge and it still works and shoots just fine. From my experience I wouldn't hesitate to shoot them in the Judge. I understand the accelerated wear the gun will be subject to, but for a defensive gun, I think it's worth it.

MCgunner
September 9, 2008, 10:29 AM
The judge has little use IMHO for any outdoor activities. It's not accurate enough for hunting, too much free bore. The shotgun range is 5 feet, maybe. It's sole use is home defense as I see it. NO, I would NOT shoot Ruger/TC only loads in that gun, not strong enough. I like Taurus revolvers, have several, but I've never been impressed with or felt the need for a judge. I see it as sort of a sales gimick. If you want a USEFUL .45 Colt/.410 pistol for outdoor use, get a TC Contender with said barrel. I have one and can take birds on the wing or running rabbits or small game (I have) out to 20-25 yards with the shotgun since the choke on that gun works rather well. It can fire +P and mine's around 7-8" at 100 yards accurate. With irons on it, I could take deer or hogs with it to 50 yards rather easily, though I have better barrels for hunting. Again, it's the free bore that messes up the accuracy in this combination. I don't know about the Judge, but the TC tends to strip the rifling with cast loads loaded to +P pressures, too. That causes massive leading and inaccuracy. I have to shoot jacketed bullets in my hot loads. It pushes a 300 grain XTP/JHP with 20.0 grains of 2400 to about 1200 fps, not a REAL hot load, but getting pretty warm and a might warm for something like the judge. It is very accurate in my Ruger Blackhawk as are cast loads.

Suit yourself. If you want to, for some weird reason, tear up your judge with hunting loads meant to penetrate heavy game, go for it. I wouldn't do it. These loads are NOT optimum self defense loads, way too much penetration. I'd handload a 200 grain Speer gold dot to 1400 or so FPS if I wanted a hot self defense round for my Blackhawk. That's not what this gun is about, though. The Blackhawk is an extremely accurate outdoor revolver capable of firing the hottest sane .45 Colt loads all day long and twice on Sunday and capable of doing anything a .44 magnum can do. This is not what the Judge is about and it cannot hope to match a Blackhawk's accuracy what with all that free bore. I don't use my TC .45 Colt barrel for deer hunting for that reason. I have a .30-30 barrel I much prefer, 1.5 MOA accuracy with a 2x LER scope and it lays down the law at long range..

JesseL
September 9, 2008, 02:07 PM
I wonder what Ruger would tell you about "Ruger only" loads?

Jst1mr
September 10, 2008, 01:22 AM
Don't know the advantage of the Judge for SD??? The .45LC can be a fine round for SD, though its accuracy may be impeded by the long "jump", but the .410 rounds are basically worthless - birdshot is worthless in any gauge for SD, and the .410 slugs and buckshot achieve less than 70% of recommended penetration for SD purposes. These loads look impressive on paper targets ONLY. A regular revolver in .45LC makes much more sense, w/ shotshells for the occasional snake.

cottonmouth
September 10, 2008, 10:00 AM
I would not shoot the hot loads. I saw one at a gunshow with a cracked frame last year, I bet a hot load did it.

J.B.

Sistema1927
September 10, 2008, 10:40 AM
Back when I was a young whippersnapper (the "Super Vel" days), I was known to "hot rod" some of my hand loads.

Now that I am older (and hopefully wiser) I recognize that there are few tasks that I will use my handguns for that won't be met with a 250 gr .452 slug exiting the barrel ~900 fps.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
September 10, 2008, 10:45 AM
Sure, it can fire ONE. In other words, NO.

rogertc1
January 23, 2009, 07:18 PM
When did Taurus start make a 3" Magnum Titanium model? The Ultra lite I have is aluminum alloy.

Monster Zero
January 23, 2009, 08:51 PM
Why would a sane person want to do that?

fxstchewy
January 23, 2009, 09:02 PM
you can fire the Buffalo Bore STANDARD loads 255 grn, I like the Georgia Arms 200 grn gold-dots in mine.

EnsignJimmy
January 23, 2009, 09:55 PM
No, just no. Do not shoot Ruger-class loads out a Taurus Judge. Do you see those thin cylinder walls and that skinny top-strap? This is a gun of the same strength class as the Colt New Service, and the S&W 25. You might get away with shooting the occasional .45 ACP pressure-level round, like the 200 gr Cor-Bon "+P," but that extra hammering is going to drastically reduce the service life of the gun. The Cor-Bon 300 gr moose-blasters? Forget it! Your best bet with those is to is to throw the Judge to the BG and taunt him into shooting at you. Preferably from behind something resistant to shrapnel.

Stay with the tried-and-true 255 grain Keith SWC at ~900 ft/sec. That load will eat whitetails for lunch at a hundred yards. It'll be good medicine against bad guys at any range you could reliably hit something with the Judge. Buffalo Bore, as has been said, offers a load that drives a 255 grain bullet at 950 ft/sec out of a 4" barrel. The Federal 225 gr LHPs are good anti-BG rounds, as are the .45 Colt 250 grain Gold Dots. Against bad guys, the standard .45 Colt load has a proven 136 year track-record. Save the hot stuff for mooses.

RtWngGunut
March 17, 2010, 07:45 PM
I have a Judge Stainless 3 in bbl, and 3 inch cyl.

I used to have a Ruger 45LC Blackhawk. I had some of my HOT loads, and at the risque of blowing the Judge up, I shot a fuul cyl. ALL the shells stuck in the cyl. So I reduced the load to that of a Plus P load, and the Judge held it's own, and the shells no longer stuck in cyl, So the Staniless version of the Judge WILL handle 45LC+P

However I do not recomend ANYTHING Hotter, like the loads of a Ruger or Tompson Contender. If you read your data loading books, and load your 45LC right in the middle between a Hot Cowboy load, and a Ruger Load, that is where the load is about nearly Max for the Judge

1KPerDay
March 17, 2010, 07:49 PM
Welcome to the High Road. This thread is 3 years old, and your test would hardly qualify as scientific. I'd advise people to check with Taurus. :)

RtWngGunut
March 17, 2010, 07:59 PM
I understand about scientific. I have been reloading all sorts of ammo since I got out of the military over 30 years ago. I have only blown up ONE gun in my life, and that was because of a week cyl.

However, I have used 45LC that were hotter then factory +P, and it survived. Actually I went through a half a box of them before I got tired of having to knock the shells out by hand. So unless you can say you have done the same with the same or different results, this is the results of my testing. And the Bullet I used was a Hornady 255 gr XTP, also a 250 gr 45 acp FMJ Ball. NO I didn't use a 45 ACP Loaded Round, just the Bullet

FoMoGo
March 17, 2010, 08:15 PM
Ummm... isnt the sticking shells an indicator that the cyl is flexing under pressure?
Seems like that flexing is an indicator that the load is a bit too high to be safe.


Jim

Nick5182
March 17, 2010, 08:15 PM
You could always get the new "Judge" when it comes out. It's the Raging Judge Magnum .454 casull/ .45 colt. / 3" .410. comes with either a 3 or 6 inch barrel. I don't know when they'll be available though.

RtWngGunut
March 17, 2010, 08:35 PM
Yes that is a sign of flexing to a degree. Actually I was hoping it would blow the cyl. I wanted to see what it would safely shoot, and what would be an acceptable load for it as well. I load 45 LC for several firearms, and I need to know how far I can safely push the envelope for the people who ask me to load for them. So I do my own testing so I know how far I can push it.

And as for the sticking brass, if I had raised the load 2 more grains, it would have been all over for the Judge. But that extra 2 gr would have most likely loosened up all the srews of my Ruger as well. That load would be approaching the lower limits of a 454 Casull .

I read a lot of loading manuals to create my own tests, and all the loading manuals give reduced MAX loads for safty, as well as to cover their butts against Liability. So all I'm trying to say here is, the Judge is a lot better made them most think, and I can Prove it.

Nicodemus38
April 8, 2010, 01:49 AM
what is the true definition of "+p" ammo? its supposed to be max 10% above the standard SAAMI pressure for that cartridge. however real life expectations have changed alot in the last few decades.

45acp +p using a 185 grain bullet is for some reason within the standard SAAMI pressure limits forthe standard 230gr military fmj that browning designed.

255 gr bullet at 1100fps in a saa was the standard velocity for the original 40 gr bp load with 8 inch barrel for the us army. nowadays some people consider itto be +p ammo.

some people consider the 160 grain bullet at 11-1200 fps in a 45 lc as being +p, but its not.

MCgunner
April 8, 2010, 09:40 AM
SAAMI standard for .45 Colt +P is 25,000 CUP....or is it PSI, whatever, there is an SAAMI standard. Google it.

Why would anyone, but a dufus want to use "Ruger Only" loads in the judge, anyway? It's not a hunting handgun, doesn't have the accuracy for that. Buy a Ruger or Freedom Arms or Contender if you want to hunt with the .45 Colt.

joed
April 8, 2010, 01:26 PM
Actually, the .45 Colt is a superior platform for "magnum" power. Its larger usable case capacity allow for .44 Remington Magnum performance at lower pressures or superior performance at higher pressures.
I have to disagree. The .45 Colt case just doesn't have a large rim for one which I consider a weak point. Most of the guns chambered for the old Colt have forcing cone and cylinder throat issues. The case has so much room that it can easily be double or triple charged.

I owned 2 S&W .45 Colt revolvers and eventually sold them off. One that I owned had the forcing cone recut and the throats reamed, it was the most accurate revolver I'd ever shot. But it was an exception. I would definately own another .45 revolver but it will be a .45 acp.

captain awesome
April 8, 2010, 08:09 PM
to repeat the rest,
no, and a disappointing no at that.
They should make a supreme high end version of the judge that can safely shoot 460 s&w.
I would probably own more than one if they did.

JWF III
April 8, 2010, 09:30 PM
They should make a supreme high end version of the judge that can safely shoot 460 s&w.
I would probably own more than one if they did.

Well they do have a new one chambered for .454 Casull. IIRC, they call it the "Raging Judge".

Wyman

nightmare
April 8, 2010, 09:39 PM
Would be Very unwise to attempt Hot .45 in Judge!

Danny331911
August 30, 2011, 04:59 PM
I know that this is an old thread but there are several misstatements that need to be corrected for those researching loads for their new Taurus. That is how I came across it.

1. History of the 45 Long Colt name (45lc).

- The initial name of the 45LC was just the 45 Colt (1872) as in the 45 Colt MD 1873 (Peacemaker). When the Colt MD 1873 was adopted by the US Army it was initially issued with "45 Colt" ammunition. I believe that the load was a 255gr lead with approx. 35-40grs blkpwdr at approx. 900fps. This load was very hot for the black powder era. At about the same time S&W was trying to get in on the US Army contracts and Modified their MD 3 S&W 45 revolver from recommendations made by Major George W. Schofield (S&W MD 1875) to what become known as the Scholfield in S&W 45 also know as 45 Scholfield (230gr bullet with 28grs blkpwdr at approx. 800fps). The Army really liked this revolver but asked S&W to lengthen the Frame and Cylinder to except the 45 Colt ammunition but S&W refused. The Army did buy a number of Schofields but quickly found out about the incapability of ammo. Since the 45 Schofield round could be fired from 1873 Colts the Army adopted the 45 45 S&W (Schofield) with a slightly modified rim to insure compatibility with current inventory 1873 Colts as the 45 Colt Government Cartridge for use in both the S&W MD 1875 Schofield and the Colt MD 1873 Peacemaker. The Army included Colt in the name as the 1873 Colt was still the main issued side arm and to differentiate it from the other '45 Government' also known as the 45-70 (which actually had a load of a 405gr bullet on top of approx. 65grs of blkpwdr).

- It was this short 45 Colt Government round with the load of 28grs blkpwdr and a 230gr lead bullet that the reputation of the 45 Colt as a manstopper was established. It was this load that was the primary revolver round used during the wild west days and the Indian Wars. When people wanted the more powerful load they would just ask for the 45 Long Colt to differentiate between it and the shorter 45 Colt Government/S&W/Scholfield round. In the early 1900s after the Army had adopted the 38cal double action revolvers that the Army brought back the Colt Peacemakers and a few S&W Schofileds that were still in inventory to handle the doped up Morros in the Philippines. So when the Army went looking for a Semi-auto using the now smokeless powered loads guess what the standard was.... 230gr bullet at 800fps. Sound familiar??? That is what the adopted 45acp fired from the 1911 does ('ACP' Automatic Colt Cartridge to differentiate it from the 45 Colt/45 Long Colt).

2. Long bullet jump and shallow riffling in Taurus Judge means bad accuracy.

- Many keep saying this even though they are proven wrong each and every time that has been challenged on the the range. The Judge does break several of these 'rules'. One because it is also a shotgun Taurus has a long bullet jump in 45lc and uses a very shallow rifling to keep the rifling from effecting shot performance. Now the rule is if you have shallow or a poor condition bore you can still get fairly good accuracy by using heavy bullets with a long bearing surface at no more that 900fps.

- To my surprise the Judge just does not follow these two 'rules'. I have a 6.5" Judge and the Hornady Critical Defense 185gr (Very short bearing service for caliber) and although it shoots 10" high, all five rounds consistently touch for a one ragged hole group at 25yrds and is doing so in excess of 1150fps. This in violation of the long bullet jump and shallow riffling rules.

3. That the multipurpose Judge has limited or no use in a Home Defense Situation.

- Again... the Judge just proves anyone saying this wrong. The best 410 round I have found is the Federal 410 2.5" Handgun load using four 000 buck balls per round at around 1000fps out of my Judges 6.5" barrel. They 'do not' spread out to being useless at longer self defense ranges. I've fired about 100rds of these just seeing how far they can be used. They will stay on a paper plate all the way out to 25yrds. Rarely will one stray off the plate at that range. It may be effective farther but I'm suspect that the 000 buck will have shed too much velocity. I'm unwilling to risk my chronograph to find out. Now 'NO ONE' can say that 3-4 000 buck balls traveling in excess of 900fps hitting anyone in a 10" or less area at the same time would be considered ineffective. For multipurpose use Remington LR express #4-5-6 shot on any size snake out to 10' or so and you'll see the MULTI in the purpose. One of the main reasons I wanted a dual use gun.

In conclusion. I bought this Judge as a Home Defense/Pest gun to keep downstairs. But I'm so impressed with the performance that I'm looking for a 45lc load with a 255-300gr bullet at somewhere between 900-1000fps (there's that long bearing surface again). These should be safe in the Judge and rounds whether lead or jacketed HP should perform very well out to about 50yds on nuisance feral pigs that we have in such abundance here in Florida.

Bubbacraig69
January 12, 2012, 11:54 PM
I would not advise trying this but a friend of mine had just bought a ultra lite Taurus Judge 2-1/2 chamber 3" barrel and with out reading the box of ammo we fired at least 10 rounds of 45+P Buffalo bore ammo in it. I fired 3 rounds and said I'm Done , the recoil shock wave goes from your hands to you shoulders and stings bad kind of like hitting a concrete poll with a metal baseball bat which sucks . But the gun did not fail and still works great to this day with all sorts of shot shells and reg 45 long colts. It was fun but I will Never do It Again!:o

Lawdawg45
January 13, 2012, 08:38 AM
As to the .45 Long colt question, didn't this label come about to separate it from the .45 short or Schofield round?

LD

kludge
January 13, 2012, 11:00 AM
Let's put it this way...

"Ruger" loads are DOUBLE the pressure of a standard .45 Colt.

Don't put +P in a Judge.

Elm Creek Smith
January 13, 2012, 02:08 PM
My brother fired five of the HSM "Bear Loads," 300 grain JSP, out of his 2˝ inch chambered UltraLite Judge before he figured out what he'd done. (Okay, so he's slow.) It didn't damage his Judge, but he won't be doing that again. He said at that the "Ribber" grip didn't cushion anything at that recoil level, something about feeling like someone smacked his hand with rebar.

We had the gun inspected by a gunsmith, and there was no apparent damage. I guess he'll look at the box next time.

ECS

MCgunner
January 14, 2012, 08:43 AM
Is there such a thing as a .45 Colt +P?

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

This calls it "Ruger", but it's on the list SAAMI rated at 25,000 CUP...or PSI....whatever.

Don't know if +P would blow up a Judge, but very much use of it would surely loosen it up prematurely.

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