Shipping "parts" via USPS


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carnaby
June 13, 2007, 03:13 PM
I'm having an interesting discussion with one of my AR-15 parts sources who also does firearm refinishing. Here's what he has to say about sending individual parts via USPS (short version, no problem):

Even though for BATF purposes, the serial number on the frame is the "tracking unit," that does not mean it's a firearm in function for shipping purposes (or for any other purposes.)

I'll give you an example that may illuminate the difference. I am not a licensed firearm manufacturer. I buy AR-15 uppers and lowers, and sell them as parts. The BATF knows (because I called to speak to them about it) that I sell both the upper and lower, and that it's possible for you to give me one order that has all the necessary components for a complete rifle, which you can assemble in under a minute.

If I were a manufacturer, I could sell a complete rifle as one line item. The downside is that I would have to pay 11% excise tax on each unit that I sold as a complete rifle. This why it's always cheaper to buy an upper and a lower separately. When I asked the BATF if I was okay with this, their reply was "you are selling parts, not rifles, so don't bother us with this."

In other words, even though the ATF tracks the lower receiver with a serial number, even THEY don't consider it to be a working gun. The track-able part is what they consider the gun for 4473 and tracking purposes, but not for all purposes.

The shippers (USPS, FedEx, UPS) have nothing at all to do with what ATF considers the "track-able part" (i.e. the handgun frame, receiver or AR-15 lower.) To them it is just another part. You can't take a frame or receiver and put a cartridge in and shoot anyone. That's all they care about. I make sure that what is in each box cannot under any circumstances be considered a gun. A handgun slide and barrel without a frame is a piece of plumbing, and a frame without a slide and barrel is a paperweight.

But, it's ultimately up to the shipper to do what he deems best, and safest.

What's the consensus here? Sound good or sound bad? :confused:

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waterhouse
June 13, 2007, 03:24 PM
It sounds interesting.

It has always been my understanding that stripped lower receivers must only be shipped to an FFL, because the ATF considers it a firearm. I also don't think taking a completed upper and lower receiver and pinning them together is what the ATF has in mind when they talk about "manufacturing" a firearm. I could be wrong though. I thought they were referring to actually making a receiver and putting a serial number on it. If not, then a bunch of guys putting AR-15s together in their garages would need manufacturing licenses.

I'd like to see something in writing from the ATF concerning this. Breaking UPS or Fedex policy is just that . . . policy. Breaking USPS policy might land you in some trouble. I'd get something in writing before you start shipping pistol "receiver" parts through the mail. Stripped Ar-15 lowers should be fine through the mail, as they don't tend to be viewed as pistols.

TX1911fan
June 13, 2007, 03:28 PM
Sounds wrong to me. AR lowers have to be shipped to an FFL, not directly to the customer. Likewise, claiming "parts" for insurance purposes with a shipper may cause problems if you need to make a claim.

Amish_Bill
June 13, 2007, 03:29 PM
You're confusing two different things here. You're mixing the tax law (11% excise tax on "complete" firearms) and the law on transfer/shipping. The two have NOTHING to do with each other beyond both being focused on firearms.

In the context of tax obligations, an incomplete firearms is just parts.

In the context of posession, the serial numbered part IS a firearm no matter what is with it.

In the context of shipping, well... Hmmm.... Someone will have to dig through the Definitions section governing that portion of the US code.

Neo-Luddite
June 13, 2007, 03:33 PM
Would you likely 'get away with it', sure. Until someone who knows what he or she is looking at opens the box and gets unhappy about the receiver that was being shipped that constituted a firearm and was not declared as such to the shipper. Boxes do get opened by the shipper, and by shipping with them your are expressly allowing them to do so. Would they call the ATF or another agency? That would depend I suppose. If the shippment got lost, you'd never really be able to file a claim for compensation either.

Lots of things get shipped everyday via Fed Ex or a similar carrier that shouldn't be shipped. I personally wouldn't chance it when there's no need. Everything but the receiver--as far as I know,that's just fine. But that receiver is a firearm legally.

DragonFire
June 13, 2007, 03:38 PM
I too have always heard that the lower had to be shipped to an FFL.

From a shipper's point of view, I think your AR source is right. Neither a lower nor an upper, by itself is a firearm, so a shipper who has a policy against shipping firearms should not have a problem with either part. On the other hand, as a company, than can define a firearm any way they want, so they could deem the frame as the firearm if they wanted to (or any other part, I guess).

But that's as far as that goes. If you shipped both parts in the same package, even though disassembled, you would/could have problems.

If you disassemble your handgun completely, and ship each piece separately, UPS (or whomever) shouldn't have a problem with any one package, but BATF certainly will look at it that you shipped a complete gun to someone.

Zundfolge
June 13, 2007, 04:18 PM
Federal law REQUIRES you to tell any common carrier that you are shipping a firearm when you ship a firearm (then you're stuck with whatever their policies are). And they define "firearm" as the serial numbered receiver, not a complete firearm.

Failure to tell them that the stripped AR lower in the box is a firearm is a federal crime.

Shipping a handgun frame by USPS is also a federal crime (as its illegal for a non FFL to ship a handgun via USPS...C&R FFL's are also not allowed to ship handguns via USPS).

As far as the law is concerned, a firearm is a firearm whether its just the receiver, or its completely assembled (add ammo to the mix and it doesn't matter whom you ship it through or what you tell them its a crime).



Trying to claim that a firearm (ie a serialized receiver) is just "parts" is a good way to face criminal charges AND if the shipment is lost its an excuse for UPS or FedEx to deny your insurance claim.

AR-15 Rep
June 13, 2007, 04:25 PM
AR lowers are considered a firearm by BATF, and LE even though functionally they are not, but none the less they are considered a firearm.

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 04:46 PM
Some of you are missing the point. OF COURSE THE LOWER MUST BE SHIPPED TO EITHER AN FFL, OR THE PERSON WHO OWNS THE LOWER AND HAS HAD IT LEGALLY TRANSFERRED TO THEM ALREADY.

Whew! Now that I got that out of the way, the question is in regard to a lowly citizen non-FFL holder using USPS to legally ship a lower receiver (AR or handgun etc) TO AN FFL for sale, or gunsmithing/repairs etc.

According to my source, you may not ship a functional firearm via USPS, but you may ship parts. The lower being simply another part and not dangerous in the least.

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 04:47 PM
Failure to tell them that the stripped AR lower in the box is a firearm is a federal crime.
Zundfolge, do you have a source for this info?

Gator
June 13, 2007, 04:57 PM
the question is in regard to a lowly citizen non-FFL holder using USPS to legally ship a lower receiver (AR or handgun etc) TO AN FFL for sale, or gunsmithing/repairs etc.

According to my source, you may not ship a functional firearm via USPS, but you may ship parts. The lower being simply another part and not dangerous in the least.

Yes, a private citizen may ship a long gun to an FFL, or gunsmith, or back to the factory for repair via USPS. The fact that it is a stripped lower instead of a complete rifle does not matter one bit. As far as the USPS and BATF are concerned it is a rifle.

Your source should read the regs rather than depend on a phone conversation with someone at the BATF. The only way to get a definitive answer from ATF is by writing. Those people who answer the phones do not know the laws, are probably not agents, and are famous for giving out bad information.

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 05:27 PM
ARgh! I meant pistols, I wasn't talking about rifles. The rifle lower thing is secondary to the argument. Dangit!

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 05:44 PM
Here's the response from the guy I'm talking to:

I see right away they are thrown because the stripped AR lower or pistol frame must be shipped to an FFL. That's correct, but it has nothing to do with shipping regulations. Transfer and ownership are not the same as shipping. In any gun service business, where the ownership is NOT CHANGING, a whole different set of rules apply. For instance, if a gun owner ships to a gunsmith out-of-state directly via FedEx, he has done NOTHING wrong. But the gunsmith (FFL) MUST ship the firearm directly back to him (i.e. no change of ownership is taking place.)

And to the guy who says pinning an upper and lower together isn't manufacturing, oh yes it is. If I put the two together and sell it as a complete rifle, I am breaking the law, because I do not have a manufacturer FFL. Yet the BATF tells me "just don't put them together" (almost their exact words.) AR-15 manufacturers pay excise tak on every complete rifle they sell, and if I sell a complete rifle without getting a manufacturers FFL and collecting excise tax, then I am breaking the law.

That's why there is a special tax provision for custom rifle or pistol builders/gunsmiths who build less than fifty (I think) rifles per year. If you are taking parts and making a complete firearm from it, you are a manufacturer (unless you get the exemption.) If you build a serial-numbered part, like a frame or receiver, you are a manufacturer. But if you buy the receiver from somewhere else and sell the firearm as parts, you are not a manufacturer, even though you must ship the frame to an FFL fro transfer.

And to the guys saying "you must tell them what's in the box," unless it's HAZMAT, or you are exporting, no you don't have to tell them what's in the box. In fact federal regulations requires that there be no indication on the outside of the box that there is a firearm inside the box (that is an actual DOT regulation, not just a suggestion.)

What confuses people even more is US Postal Service regulations. They are not a branch of ATF. All they require is one form which references your FFL number and you can ship anything to any other FFL. But that doesn't affect FedEx or UPS, or any other shipping company for that matter. FedEx and UPS have never required me to provide a copy of my FFL. And they don't check who the receipient is. It is UP TO ME to make sure that I am not breaking BATF regulations by shipping a firearm that is being transferred to someone in another state who is NOT an FFL (did you follow that?)

And just to be perfectly clear, any sales and/or transfers in and out of my shop are scrupulously documented, and I oversee these personally. Serial-numbered parts are never sent to anyone other than an FFL if the intention is to transfer ownership. And serviced firearms are reviewed to insure that we are complying with shipping regs.

The whole point is that just because the BATF tracks serial numbers and requires a transfer and 4473 on specific parts, does not mean that shippers and tax guys look at the same parts and regard it as a firearm. Taxes, shipping and ATF ownership regulations are separate spheres.
But again, if someone is uncomfortable with this interpretation, then they should do what they think is safest.

Zundfolge
June 13, 2007, 05:46 PM
According to my source, you may not ship a functional firearm via USPS, but you may ship parts. The lower being simply another part and not dangerous in the least.
You may ship a functional long arm via USPS, but not even a handgun frame. Regardless of who you're shipping too (FFL, Manufacturer, ATF even).



Zundfolge, do you have a source for this info?
18USC 922 (e) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html)
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

Looks like, however, if you're shipping to an FFL you don't need to tell them. Interesting.

Ok, maybe you're covered from a legal standpoint, however if the shipment is lost you've just given them an excuse to not pay the insurance claim.

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 05:49 PM
Er, Zundfolge, that's not what I was looking for. I already know you can ship fully assembled rifles via USPS. I want to know where it says I can't ship a handgun frame only to an FFL via USPS. I know I can't send a fully assembled handgun via USPS.

Ah, I see now it was my mistake. I quoted the wrong quote, darn I'm having issues today. :p

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 05:56 PM
This seems to answer the question, maybe:
a. Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable in the domestic mail except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0.
b. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0 or C024.2.0.
A handgun frame by itself cannot be readily reassembled as a weapon. That should end it right there. In the definitions section they have:
A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.
431.2 Handgun
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:
a. Pistol or Revolver. A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be fired by the use of a single hand.
So we're in a situation of "it doesn't say you can't, but it doesn't say you can either". However, as far as ATF is concerned, as long as either the owner or an FFL is the receiver of the gun, there shouldn't be a problem.

brickeyee
June 13, 2007, 06:01 PM
This keeps going around over and over.
A common carrier is REQUIRED to obtain a signature for a firearm upon delivery.
This means the carrier MUST be informed of the contents of the package.
The law contains a 'knowingly' exemption so if the shipper fails to notify the carrier cannot be prosecuted.

Do you really think BATFE did not have their lawyers review the FAQ answers??

If your 'friend' is keeping firearms (the serial numbered portion) over night he MUST have an FFL.
It can be a 'gunsmith' FFL, but he is required to have it and must comply with all the record keeping requirements.

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 06:13 PM
He is an FFL. He sells lowers, uppers, parts and does firearm refinishing.

What we're talking about is how a non-FFL can send a handgun to him via USPS. You of course cannot send a full handgun via USPS if you are not an FFL. But the rules do seem to indicate that you can send the handgun frame all by itself, and then send the rest of the parts separately.

deadin
June 13, 2007, 06:33 PM
While you're in Pub 52 (Postal Regs) check out section 433:

433 Mailer Responsibility
Even though certain types of firearms are permitted to be mailed within the
provisions of the postal law in 18 U.S.C. 1715, it is the mailerís responsibility to comply with all federal and state regulations and local ordinances affecting the movement of firearms.

This basically says that the "final" word is the BATFE. And the BATFE says the receiver is the firearm.

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 06:36 PM
This basically says that the "final" word is the BATFE. And the BATFE says the receiver is the firearm.That is true with respect to transfer. It does not appear to be the case with shipping to an FFL or the owner of the firearm, which is a different issue.

Jim Watson
June 13, 2007, 06:49 PM
You are sending it to the guy who says he does it all the time, right?
You appear to have talked yourself into it.
Let us know how it works out.

Me?
I'll pay more to ship and less to a lawyer. You can be right but in court at hundreds per hour to prove it.

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 06:51 PM
Nope, I'm not shipping anything. I'm just curious for future reference. The guy doesn't say he does it all the time, he's an FFL and can already ship USPS.

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 06:54 PM
The rules I have up there seem to be pretty clear.

1. You cannot ship a functioning pistol

2. You cannot ship something (dissassembled parts or whatever) that can be "readily reassembled as a weapon".

The ATF stuff only has to do with transfer of a firearm to a person who is not yet the owner, and not an FFL. Where does it say anywhere in anyone's regs that you can't ship a firearm frame only to an FFL via USPS???

Jim Watson
June 13, 2007, 08:05 PM
The BATF once made a case that a semi-auto was "readily convertible" to full auto based on several hours in a well equipped shop. I don't think they and the Postal Inspector would blanch at the idea of making a receiver "readily assembled as a weapon" by opening your other package from and to the same addresses.

If you come to their notice, the government lawyers will not read the statute and regulation narrowly to your advantage.

Soybomb
June 13, 2007, 09:32 PM
Federal law REQUIRES you to tell any common carrier that you are shipping a firearm when you ship a firearmUnless you're sending it to an ffl, then you don't have to.

When the cost to send a firearm frame by ups ground or priority mail would be essentially the same I wouldn't play the "a frame isn't a complete gun" game with federal law. Ship UPS and avoid the potential of breaking any law.

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 09:37 PM
The BATF once made a case that a semi-auto was "readily convertible" to full auto based on several hours in a well equipped shop. I don't think they and the Postal Inspector would blanch at the idea of making a receiver "readily assembled as a weapon" by opening your other package from and to the same addresses.But again the problem you refer to has to do with sending a firearm to someone other than an FFL or to the owner of the firearm (already been transfered on form 4473). What I am referring to is the sending, by USPS, of a handgun to an FFL, nothing more.

deadin
June 13, 2007, 10:01 PM
Well, it sounds like you have it all figured out. All I can say is 'Go for it'....
Myself, I don't want to screw with the BATFE and the Postal Inspectors.

Gator
June 13, 2007, 10:16 PM
Where does it say anywhere in anyone's regs that you can't ship a firearm frame only to an FFL via USPS???

You can't find it because such a distinction (between assembled firearm and bare frame) does not exist.

Does the GCA control the sale of firearms parts?

No, except that frames or receivers of firearms are "firearms" as defined in the law and subject to the same controls as complete firearms. Silencer parts are also firearms under the GCA, as well as under the National Firearms Act (NFA). Certain machine gun parts, such as conversion parts or kits, are also subject to the NFA.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) and (24), 26 U.S.C. 5845, 27 CFR 478.11 and 479.11]

Emphasis added

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a5

carnaby
June 13, 2007, 10:48 PM
And what does that have to do with sending it to an FFL via USPS?

deadin
June 13, 2007, 11:50 PM
OK, one last try and then I give up.
Note that the "mailer" must be a FFL and the "receiver" must be on the list of Addressees. I can't seem to find any example of what you seem to think is legal.

432.2 PS Form 1508
PS Form 1508, Statement by Shipper of Firearms, must be completed by
each firearm manufacturer or dealer who deposits firearms for mailing. The
form must be filed with the postmaster of the post office of mailing.

Mailability Requirements for Firearms
Handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer or dealer, an authorized federal agent, or an authorized state,
territory, or district agent ONLY when addressed to one of the following addressee categories for use in official
duties:
Addressee Affidavit Requirements
a. Officer of Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine
Corps, or organized reserve corps.
b. Officer of National Guard or militia of a state, district, or
territory.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
certificate signed by commanding officer.
c. Officer of the federal government or a state, district, or
territory whose official duty is to serve warrants of
arrest or commitment.
d. USPS employees specifically authorized by the chief
postal inspector.
e. Officer or employee of a U.S. enforcement agency.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
certificate signed by head of agency employing the
addressee.
f. Watchman engaged in guarding federal, state, district,
or territory property.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
certificate signed by chief clerk of department, bureau,
or branch of government agency employing the
addressee.
g. Purchasing agent or other designated member of an
agency employing officers and personnel included in
c, d, or e above.
Mailable with affidavit signed by addressee and
certificate signed by the head of agency stating the
firearm is to be used by an officer or employee cited in
c, d, or e of the opposite column.

carnaby
June 14, 2007, 12:00 AM
Right, that part is not in dispute. Now here's the definitions from that same page:

43 Firearms
431 Definitions
431.1 Firearm

A firearm is defined as any device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.
431.2 Handgun

Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. The following definitions apply:

a. Pistol or Revolver. A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be fired by the use of a single hand.

So it's ambiguous at best, whether or not a pistol frame is a handgun. Is a pistol frame a device (including a starter gun) that is designed, or may readily be converted, to expel a projectile by an explosion, a spring, or other mechanical action, or by air or gas pressure with sufficient force to be used as a weapon.? I don't think so, but I'm not certain. I suppose that you could convert (maybe not readily, dunno?) a pistol frame into such a device. I think of such a device as being all the pistol parts in one box, but I didn't write the law, nor do I have any authority in deciding the matter, so my opinion means squat here.

Firearms law sure is frustrating, can we all agree on that? :o

Sir Aardvark
June 14, 2007, 12:08 AM
If you try to get around the law by disassembling your firearm and calling it "parts", and then shipping those "parts" ILLEGALY, you will get busted if you got caught.

Try explaining it to the judge how clever you think you are by calling your disassembled firearm "parts", because I think the judge will know how to clearly interpret this one.

carnaby
June 14, 2007, 12:14 AM
er, isn't the frame by itself a "part"? That's the question. It certainly is the gun as far as transferring it to a non-FFL who has not already been in possession of the firearm, but for shipping purposes, given the definitions above? I think it's ambiguous at worst.

Soybomb
June 14, 2007, 12:59 AM
So it's ambiguous at best, whether or not a pistol frame is a handgun.
I don't see whats vague at all. I took a look at the text of the gca of 1968 which is where your shipping regulations come from. http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/gca.htm

(3) The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

UPS ahoy.

carnaby
June 14, 2007, 01:33 AM
I still don't see it. Why does the USPS definition mirror the GCA68 definition except that it specifically omits "(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;"

Seems like that supports my case even more, thanks :D

waterhouse
June 14, 2007, 12:22 PM
Odds are, if you want to send your pistol frame through the mail, you won't ever get caught.

But if you did get caught, and they wanted to press charges, I'm guessing the government expert witness would be from the ATF. And we all know how they define a serial numbered receiver.

The only definitive way to get an answer is to write to the ATF, and ask them if it is legal to ship a stripped pistol receiver to your gunsmith through USPS if you are not an FFL. They will write you back, and then you will have your answer in writing.

carnaby
June 14, 2007, 05:05 PM
I think you have the only answer, waterhouse. I'm going to do it.

Gordon Fink
June 14, 2007, 05:50 PM
Itís funny, isnít it?

You might think that a government interested in controlling access to firearms would require them to be shipped through its own distribution system. Instead, we have to entrust the guns most useful to criminals to the work-release crews at FedEx and UPS.

~G. Fink

brickeyee
June 14, 2007, 08:54 PM
"Unless you're sending it to an ffl, then you don't have to. "

Title 27
Sec. 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph
shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger
who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the
trip.

What part of this do you not understand?
The shipper MUST obtain a signature when they deliver if a forearm is shipped.
YOU are therefore REQUIRED to notify the shipper if the package has a firearm.
All the internet crap about "other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, " (Title 27 Sec. 478.31(a)) fails to keep reading the section down to (d).

Jim Watson
June 14, 2007, 09:24 PM
No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package

And this applies how to the multi-kilobuck custom Colt SAA that I came home lucky to find behind the screen door?

I forget the exact gun or other high dollar shipment left unattended that had in the space under "Adult Signature Required" a line of scrawl that could just be made out to read "Adult Signature"

Many of the carriers don't know legal or company regs... or don't care. Not like it was THEIR stuff.

waterhouse
June 15, 2007, 09:19 AM
The shipper MUST obtain a signature when they deliver if a firearm is shipped.
YOU are therefore REQUIRED to notify the shipper if the package has a firearm.

Perhaps I'm reading it wrong. I receive packages that have nothing to do with firearms all the time, and some of these require adult signatures.

Could a person send something to an FFL (and therefore not need to say it was a gun due to the "internet crap about licenced importer . . .") and also require an adult signature as part of delivery of the package, also without mentioning it is a gun and still being in compliance with Sec. 478.31?


For about $3 Fedex will put the Adult Signature Required sticker on anything, not just guns.

Also, and I'm sure there are some legal definitions about the word "knowingly," the law you posted states that:
No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgment of receipt . . .
If you didn't tell them what was in the box, then they aren't "knowingly" delivering a firearm. They are merely delivering one of thousands of other packages.

ilbob
June 15, 2007, 10:11 AM
The shipper MUST obtain a signature when they deliver if a forearm is shipped.
Yes.
YOU are therefore REQUIRED to notify the shipper if the package has a firearm.No. Only a signature is required. The law does not say you have to notify them, or that they even have to know what is in the package. Only that a signature is required.

Soybomb
June 16, 2007, 09:20 PM
What part of this do you not understand?
The shipper MUST obtain a signature when they deliver if a forearm is shipped.
YOU are therefore REQUIRED to notify the shipper if the package has a firearm.
All the internet crap about "other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, " (Title 27 Sec. 478.31(a)) fails to keep reading the section down to (d).
http://cyber-byte.com/photos/atf.jpg
You might call these guys and ask them what part of it they don't understand ;)

Snarky response aside though, (d) says you need signed delivery, and has absolutely nothing to do with notification. Paragraph a says you've gotta' tell the common carrier unless its going to a FFL, paragraph b says you can't put a GUN INSIDE sticker on the box, paragraph c says the shipper can't ship the item if they think they're breaking the law, paragraph d says it has to be signed for at delivery. Lets take the high road and avoid having egg on our faces when we're wrong.

With regards to the original question though, I think the ATF letter on this issue should be a great way to put it to rest too. Please post it when you hear back.

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