Magpul PDR


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PercyShelley
June 14, 2007, 04:40 AM
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1011

Didn't see a thread about it here so I suppose I'll start one.

The PDR is Magpul's latest project to be unveiled. It appears to be in the mockup stage at this point, but assuming the final product matches the specifications stated for it, it will be a tidy little piece of engineering.

The following features grab my attention:

1) The bolt appears to be very short, as there isn't much room between the back of the magazine and the butt.

2) The ejection port is quite a bit forward of the action. This diagonal ejection scheme appears to be a compromise between conventional ejection and F2000 style forward ejection. The gun appears to be lefty-compatible (but don't pucker your lips when you shoot it that way!) but not overly difficult to clear of a jam.

3) It appears that the gun will have a breakopen takedown procedure like an AR-15 or FAL.

If the final product can match what's published now about the mockup, it'll be a p90 killer for sure.

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Number 6
June 14, 2007, 06:09 AM
I am not sure that it is a P90 killer, and I have some reservations about the design. First, can they tame the flash on a 5.56 round coming out of 10 inch barrel? Second, noise is going to be an issue with such a small barrel and a 5.56 round. Third, with such a light gun the recoil is going to be at the very least greater than a Stoner based system, if not much greater. I think the design is intriguing, but I still would like to see how it stacks up against HK's, FN's, and Knight's designs. A healthy amount of skepticism is always good for what ails you.

PercyShelley
June 14, 2007, 11:01 AM
In all fairness, anything said about the design now is pure speculation on our part because magpul hasn't even produced a functioning prototype yet.

That said, if they can make the gun to the projected specifications, I forsee the following advantages over the P90:

1) It will be lighter; indeed, almost as light as H&K's MP7.

2) It will be appreciably more powerful.

3) It will not use proprietary ammunition or magazines.

2 and 3 apply to comparisons against the MP7, and 1 and 3 against the KAC PDW. It will also be shorter than the KAC PDW with the stock extended, although one might argue that these PDWs are so short that they're ergonomically incorrect.

Recoil and flash will probably have to be tamed with some sort of miniaturized suppressor/moderator unit, but there's plenty of room.

That said, the specs so far published for this gun are mighty ambitious, and I will be very much impressed if they are met entirely.

buzz_knox
June 14, 2007, 11:14 AM
Recoil and flash will probably have to be tamed with some sort of miniaturized suppressor/moderator unit, but there's plenty of room.

One of Noveske's muzzle devices would work well here.

PercyShelley
December 25, 2007, 11:34 AM
New information here (http://www.magpul.com/pdfs/PDRtech_PR.pdf).

HorseSoldier
December 25, 2007, 12:42 PM
I think the thing has the potential to run the P90 and MP7 out of the market entirely, as far as most government military/LE contracts are concerned if it is managable while firing and mechanically reliable. The logistics commonality angle will appeal to pretty much any agency already using 5.56mm and STANAG mags. The greater thump compared to 5.7 FN or 4.6x30 shouldn't hurt either.

PercyShelley
December 25, 2007, 03:13 PM
I also wonder what potential lengthened versions might have as straight up assault rifles. The PDR seems to have a very short action behind the barrel. A PDR-based assault rifle would be two inches shorter than an AUG with a barrel of the same length, for example.

Bigfoot
December 25, 2007, 04:21 PM
I can't bring up the linked PDF but I've read that Magpul states that they will release it to the public. In order to keep the length over 26" they will have to give it an 18-20" barrel. The light weight in the rear and the short LOP means that it will feel and balance well. This rifle version is the one that I want, without the vertical grip please.:)

The Defense Review link says it's easily convertable to 6.5 and 6.8. Umm, I want that too. :)

A 26" long, 5 lb bullpup in 6.5 or 6.8 with a short LOP. Yep, works for me.

yongxingfreesty
December 25, 2007, 04:29 PM
looks pretty cool

Logan5
December 25, 2007, 04:48 PM
looks like a very cool "non-functional prototype mockup", but just looking at it, that charging handle can't possibly move that bolt far enough back to get near that magwell.

Off topic, but is there a collector's market for prototype mockups? I imagine they are non guns, generally?

PercyShelley
December 25, 2007, 07:00 PM
looks like a very cool "non-functional prototype mockup", but just looking at it, that charging handle can't possibly move that bolt far enough back to get near that magwell.

The bolt must be very short, and the charging handle must be mounted on some sort of transfer bar.

The on the fly, reversible ejection is interesting. Given the relative positions of the magazine well and ejection ports, and the description of the system, I would guess that the brass is initially ejected forwards, and hits a deflector that can be oriented to the right or left. I wonder why they didn't go with forward ejection; it would only require that the tube be lengthened.

W.E.G.
December 25, 2007, 07:11 PM
You break it, you buy it!

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/humor/cracksmeup.jpg

PTK
December 25, 2007, 07:19 PM
W.E.G.

Yes, it's a mockup. We're all amazed how witty you are.

Oohrah
December 26, 2007, 01:31 AM
Have not seen anything but good come out of Magpul !!!!!!!

max popenker
December 26, 2007, 04:06 AM
Personally, i would hate to have a 5.56 muzzle-blast (all from 11" barrel which is too short for a standard 5.56) in about 8" from my eyes and ears.
Note that in most cases you will not have an appropriate hearing protection in combat; i only fired a full-size M16 indoors, but it was bad enough for my ears, and i can only imagine how deaf operator will be after just one burst of this little beast indoors.
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4841/pdrub2.jpg

This gun just screams for a sound moderator, but it will add at least 4" of length.

mrmeval
December 26, 2007, 04:26 AM
Can a suppressor and barrel combo for 5.56 be the same length as that barrel and still be useful?

max popenker
December 26, 2007, 06:16 AM
Can a suppressor and barrel combo for 5.56 be the same length as that barrel and still be useful?
yes it can - at the cost of the barrel length and thus the muzzle velocity / energy / range / lethality.
Of cause you can go the integrated suppressor route and save some by placing the rear part of the muffler around the barrel, but this approach has its own downsides.

mrmeval
December 26, 2007, 09:00 AM
Thanks Max,

If you have any experience would this be more effective than an
unsuppressed P90? At least would it be more comfortable? I've shot the short ones and they are very unpleasant.

doubleg
December 26, 2007, 09:09 AM
Personally, i would hate to have a 5.56 muzzle-blast (all from 11" barrel which is too short for a standard 5.56) in about 8" from my eyes and ears.
Note that in most cases you will not have an appropriate hearing protection in combat; i only fired a full-size M16 indoors, but it was bad enough for my ears, and i can only imagine how deaf operator will be after just one burst of this little beast indoors.

The other day I was talking to my ARMY recruiter and asked him "How can you guys shoot with out going deaf?". His reply was " 99% of the time even during combat we have plugs in."

Coronach
December 26, 2007, 09:58 AM
I wonder why they didn't go with forward ejection; it would only require that the tube be lengthened. a little bit of thread drift, but how reliable is forward ejection when firing upwards (like, say, MOUT scenarios where the user is on the street firing up at rooftops at a steep angle)? That always struck me as something that works great at the range, not so great in real life.

Mike

max popenker
December 26, 2007, 10:00 AM
The other day I was talking to my ARMY recruiter and asked him "How can you guys shoot with out going deaf?". His reply was " 99% of the time even during combat we have plugs in."
That's for infantry grunts, but imagine a truck driver who rode into an ambush and bailed out of the cab with his PDW? Or a downed helicopter pilot? or a comm operator?
remember, that PDW's are not for infantry - those are for "the other people", who will hardly have the earplugs on at the moment of SHTF, nor will they have the time to plug their ear once S has hit the F.

If you have any experience would this be more effective than an
unsuppressed P90?
Sorry, never fired a P90. But remember that 5.7x28mm ammo has significantly less powder (than .223), and it is optimized for short pistol / smg barrels.

PercyShelley
December 26, 2007, 11:54 AM
a little bit of thread drift, but how reliable is forward ejection when firing upwards (like, say, MOUT scenarios where the user is on the street firing up at rooftops at a steep angle)? That always struck me as something that works great at the range, not so great in real life.


There's a video around here of an FS2000 being fired with the ejection port cover closed and the tube filled with brass. It ejects positively every time.

The approach might not be that bad.

Coronach
December 26, 2007, 12:11 PM
Straight up?

Mike

PercyShelley
December 26, 2007, 12:19 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sXANSNcFI2o

No, someone needs to test it shooting straight up.

PTK
December 26, 2007, 12:43 PM
Mike

The cover is held by a detent and not only is it popped open, ALL the brass in the ejection tube comes out. I'd say that's positive ejection.

I do wonder about straight up ejection, though.

Darthbauer
December 26, 2007, 01:22 PM
It looks exactly like the SMG from Halo2. I wonder if they were sitting there playing xbox and thought that hey we should make one of these guns? Id get one but I live in CA, so thats not going to happen.

Question? If soldiers are in combat with earplugs in how can they hear people sneaking up on them?

SpeedAKL
December 26, 2007, 02:19 PM
Looks kinda cool; hopefully they'll over a semi-auto version to civilians, I'm sure people wouldn't mind paying the $250 tax for a high-end high-tech weapon like this.

Coronach
December 26, 2007, 02:46 PM
I do wonder about straight up ejection, though.Yeah, I've played around with a FN2000 or whatever FN's swoopy new bullpup is called (it was nifty, and compact, but something about the way it balances just leaves me cold). The ejection is positive, for sure...but I dunno how well it would handle the tube being near-vertical.

If I would have had a magazine of blanks I would have tried it myself, but the gun club frowns upon sending bullets on high parabolic arcs. :D

Mike

CleverNickname
December 26, 2007, 07:16 PM
Can a suppressor and barrel combo for 5.56 be the same length as that barrel and still be useful?
FWIW most suppressor manufacturers don't warranty their 5.56mm suppressors for use with barrels shorter than 12" or so. Something about the bullet not being stabilized enough and getting baffle strikes.

PPGMD
December 26, 2007, 08:04 PM
The PDR design is planned to include a small moderator so the sound issues isn't as big of an issue.

Wes Janson
December 26, 2007, 10:43 PM
5.56 out of a barrel that short is still going to be awfully loud, especially that close to one's face.

Thin Black Line
December 27, 2007, 07:15 AM
That's for infantry grunts, but imagine a truck driver who rode into an ambush and bailed out of the cab with his PDW? Or a downed helicopter pilot? or a comm operator?
remember, that PDW's are not for infantry - those are for "the other people", who will hardly have the earplugs on at the moment of SHTF, nor will they have the time to plug their ear once S has hit the F.

Non-Combat Arms people are also wearing ear plugs on convoys and in
helicopters (blackhawks are very very loud on the inside). I would've liked
a weapon this short for pointing out the thick swing window of my uparmored
humvee. Instead I "settled" for a mossberg with a folding stock when I
rode shotgun :)

PercyShelley
December 27, 2007, 06:12 PM
They mention that it could easily be rechambered in 6mm, by which I assume they mean 6x35mm KAC PDW, which is intended for short barrels such as these. That would be nearly perfect, but would negate the advantage of using current magazines and ammo.

chieftain
December 27, 2007, 06:19 PM
I think Magpul should deliver their first promised rifle, BEFORE, they start dangling other non existing tidbits.

Yup others have done it. But I have yet to see a gun manufacturer who hasn't ever produced a weapon before, dangle a second non existing rifle before the first model isn't in existence yet.

Go figure.

Fred

bl4ckd0g
December 28, 2007, 01:08 AM
This is one more item on the 'undelivered rifles' list. Despite my urge to go out and buy one after my disappointment with the PS90, I'd like to see its initial performance and predicted pricepoint.

Regarding the muzzle report, I'm sure I could experiment with .223 rem handgun loads on my progressive press to keep my eyebrows from being torched.

strambo
December 28, 2007, 01:39 AM
That looks like an ideal "vaporware" replacement for my imaginary P90. Sweet!:p

Tyris
December 28, 2007, 03:20 AM
FWIW most suppressor manufacturers don't warranty their 5.56mm suppressors for use with barrels shorter than 12" or so. Something about the bullet not being stabilized enough and getting baffle strikes.

I think they're lying and covering up for material and construction short comings of their cans.

If it did not stabilize that would imply some wildly inaccurate guns. There are plenty of reports of SBRs with 10" barrels that shoot good groups, visit silencertalk.com to see for yourself.

What really happens on a short barrel length rifles is the increased pressure muzzle blast will erode the blast baffle at an accelerated rate as compared to 16"+ barrels. Most mediocre cans use stainless steel for blast baffles, better cans use inconel instead. Good manufacturers will warranty their cans to 10 or 10.5" barrels.

-T

PPGMD
December 28, 2007, 10:47 AM
Tyris,

I think the best way to answer this is to quote Trey Knight III in response to the question "What is the shortest barrel lenght KAC will warranty a 5.56 can on?"

Trey responds: "We warranty for factory defects. If I get a can back and the blast baffle is heavily eroded I am going to question the firing schedule. I feel our cans will be as durable as anything else on the market if not more. They should be they are heavy."

AAC tested their SCAR-SD can on a 7.3" AR:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=etj7buHcmM8

The military tested the AAC M4-2000 Mod 07 on a 10" Hk 416. The military test was over 800 rounds IIRC. Also tested was the full auto Surefire can (not sure if Surefire makes a distinction on the 5.56 cans, they do on the 30 cal cans), and a KAC can.

So I think this is more about companies going cheap on the blast baffle, like Gemtech, which uses titanium and a roll pin in their G5 can.

HorseSoldier
December 28, 2007, 11:51 AM
If it did not stabilize that would imply some wildly inaccurate guns. There are plenty of reports of SBRs with 10" barrels that shoot good groups, visit silencertalk.com to see for yourself.

I've seen guys make consistent hits on steel chest plates at beyond 900 meters with a 12" barreled upper on an M4A1. Admittedly this was with bipod, Mk 262 ammo, Horus Talon, and probably most important, the ballistics software the comes with the Horus scope in the mix. But, regardless, barrel length won't prevent an M4/M16 from grouping minute of chest plate/man at very extreme distances if the shooter can do his part. (No claims made as to how much thump the bullet still had at those ranges, however.)

Question? If soldiers are in combat with earplugs in how can they hear people sneaking up on them?

It's all situation dependent. If you're planning on skulking around all sneaky-like, ear plugs may not be the right answer. If you're rolling into a raid in the back of an AFV or helicopter, or in a hum-vee where a guy is banging away on a .50 cal or 240, you may as well have ear pro in since you'll be half-deaf by the time you get there anyway.

Or you can wear peltors.

Nolo
December 28, 2007, 05:25 PM
It looks exactly like the SMG from Halo2. I wonder if they were sitting there playing xbox and thought that hey we should make one of these guns? Id get one but I live in CA, so thats not going to happen.
No it doesn't.
Not any more than a Beretta 92FS looks exactly like a Colt M1911.
Halo 2 & 3 SMG:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/smg.jpg
Magpul PDR-C:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/Magpul_PDR.jpg

PercyShelley
December 29, 2007, 02:13 PM
Way I figure it, rifling converts a certain amount of the bullet's forward momentum to angular momentum. A bullet of a design, and therefore with a given length, moment of inertia, frontal area, astrological sign, et cetera needs a certain amount of angular momentum to stabilize satisfactorily. Since a long barrel will let a bullet gain more forward momentum, it should also allow it to gain more angular momentum.

For reasonable short-barreled rifles, bullets and twist rates, though, it clearly isn't a problem because people are still grouping fine.

Sick idea: If this gun can readily be converted to 6.5 Grendel, that means it has enough play to fit an x39 bolt face, which means in turn that it can probably be rechambered in .50 beowulf.

Finally, this is most certainly unlike the SMGs from Halo. As you may recall, the Halo SMGs are caseless.

Nolo
December 29, 2007, 02:25 PM
Yes, that's true.

Mr. Alloy
January 27, 2009, 10:21 PM
Any update on this? It was supposed to be released in '08, and while I'm not surprised it wasn't, from what I've heard of Magpul, I'm starting to get ancy.

Has there even been a working prototype yet?

Coronach
January 27, 2009, 10:54 PM
Well, the Masada got turned into the ACR and went into another timewarp, so I bet this thing ain;t doing much better.

I have a new term for the vaporware: we're being masadamized. :scrutiny:

Mike

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