21 to buy a hand gun.

[RancidSumo]

This doesn't make any sense to me. If you can buy a rifle when you are 18 why can't you buy a pistol? I think that they should change it to 18 like a rifle, what do you guys think?

[CH47gunner]

18 - with proper firearms training certificate.

[kd7nqb]

first I need to correct you. Federal law says that you can do a private party transfer of handgun at 18. Some states restrict this farther but many do not.

Also the restriction is on the FFL dealer selling you a handgun on on you buying it this is why you can do a FTF transfer.


As for my opinion, 18 for everything seems reasonable. But then again I am one of these nutjobs that doesn't think I should have to apply for the RIGHT to carry a firearm.

[SigfanUSAF]

I went with 21, as I believe the legal drinking age should remain as well. I haven't met nearly as many mature 18 year olds as I have 21 year olds, and I believe only a small percentage of the population at 18 is mature enough. If dad wants to hand his son a 1911 for h/s graduation, that's one thing, because chances are, he was raised around firearms. An 18 year old with no experience with firearms, especially handguns, could be a dangerous thing.
JMHO.

[RNB65]

In most states you can buy a handgun at 18. You just can't buy it from a federally licensed (FFL) firearms dealer. It has to be a private transaction.

[deadin]

I sometimes think there should be some kind of a test to determine ones mental age, not physical age, when it comes to firearm ownership. I've known 15-16 year olds that are fully mature and responsible enough to own a handgun. Of course, I've also known 21+ year olds that aren't.;)

[scubie02]

we are infantilizing our society, and as a result kids in general are less mature I think than maybe they were once upon a time. You reap what you sow.

[jojosdad]

If you are considered mature enough to vote, buy a longarm, and serve in the military, I think you are mature enough buy a handgun.

[psyopspec]

A yes vote, from a guy who:
Deployed to Iraq, got home, was given a handgun as a gift, got a North Dakota concealed weapons permit, and joined the local VFW but couldn't go to the meetings because he was only 19 at the time.

[armed85]

I find it interesting that we bemoan restrictions (such as having to submit proof of need or proof of skill for a conceal carry permit) and yet we aren't upset of the age restriction.

At the age of 18 one can join the military and be trusted with weapons a whole lot more dangerous than a handgun.

If you want to have the age for drinking and gun ownership to be 21, you ought to raise the age requirement for enlistment to 21 as well.

If one is too immature to purchase a handgun or a beer, one is also too immature to make a decision as important as enlisting.

You can't have it both ways.

[Majic]

At the age of 18 one can join the military and be trusted with weapons a whole lot more dangerous than a handgun.
True, but one point everyone misses is they are supervised. They don't have these weapons to go out and do as they please.

[Noxx]

If you are considered mature enough to vote, buy a longarm, and serve in the military, I think you are mature enough buy a handgun.

+1

[RevolvingCylinder]

True, but one point everyone misses is they are supervised. They don't have these weapons to go out and do as they please.
What you're saying is that maturity isn't needed on the battlefield or in combat. We all know how "supervised" and "controlled" a situation that combat is. That being entrusted with more responsibilities than 99% of the population and the defense of the nation requires less maturity than some dumbass civilian with the only firearms experience is what he saw in movies? Since he lived a specified number of years the life of he and his family mean more?

[Eightball]

I think the age should be lowered to 18. Why? It isn't like and FFL has to sell you a firearm if they don't want to. Many individuals don't know the caveats to the law, and will not sell to someone under 18 to begin with--that is just their issue, because they are ignorant of the laws, and think that selling a handgun to someone under 18 in a FTF is illegal. Generally speaking, I've known a guy who went to Iraq, and wound up in a convoy spot, and got to the point where he was issued a pistol. He used this same pistol to save a few lives before his tour was up, but when he got back to the US on leave, he wasn't "mature" enough to buy/own a handgun (only "mature" enough to enlist and save others' lives :scrutiny:).

At the very least, I think that having the age one can purchase a handgun and the age where one can purchase alcohol being the same is a very bad idea--people make stupid decisions with alcohol in them, and if they intend to engage in both activities they are now legally entitled to, more bad things could happen than if the ages were separate. But, since the .gov will never allow the states to lower the drinking age (since technically the government cannot govern these things, it's a state matter, they just bully the states with federal highway funds), why not drop the handgun age to, say, 20?

[fletcher]

I believe no greater than 18 for any such thing; drinking, firearms purchases, smoking, eating lard, what have you.

[RancidSumo]

I sometimes think there should be some kind of a test to determine ones mental age, not physical age, when it comes to firearm ownership. I've known 15-16 year olds that are fully mature and responsible enough to own a handgun. Of course, I've also known 21+ year olds that aren't

Well thats perfect then since I am 15.

[RNB65]

I also think the driving age should be raised to 18, but that's not getting much support either. :)

[RancidSumo]

Thats the dumbest idea I've ever heard.

[RNB65]

Ask any insurance company about the amount of $$$ they have to pay out in death and injury claims (not to mention auto repairs) due to 16-17 year old drivers. I think you'll find they agree with me.

:)

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

If you're old enough to get shot at in Iraq-----you're old enough to go buy a gun and have a beer.

[deadin]

If you're old enough to get shot at in Iraq-----you're old enough to go buy a gun and have a beer.

I can agree with that...as long as you are in the military.

[Mannix]

18 for everything. Of course, I'm 18 :D. Honestly though, I think alot of the immaturity some of you guys are citing as the reason it should be 21 is caused by parents sheltering their kids too much, and not holding them accountable for their own actions and mistakes.

[Heavy Metal Hero]

I am under 21 and still more mature than most of the redneck rambos I see at the local shooting range. But then, nobody has ever stopped me from drinking alcohol inside the comfort of my home either.

[Jason_G]

I think it should be eighteen, and then I see stuff like this that makes me think twice...
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=guns%2C+range%2C+tomb+raider&search=
What's bad is it's [the immaturity "epidemic" of young adults these days] not even an age issue really. I think it's a much bigger problem of teenagers/young adults not being responsible or accountable for their own actions. It's unfortunate for the ones that grew up knowing how to be responsible, but the responsible ones are becoming more of the exception than the rule. MHO is that it stems from the huge number of parents not doing their job. How do people keep churning out these idiots, and then wonder why our public schools are getting shot up by students? Like it or not, it's folks like the ones in that video that prevent the legal purchasing age from being 18. I wish it were different.

Jason

Edit: my edit is in parentheses and red

[Heavy Metal Hero]

What's bad is it's not even an age issue really.

Exactly, that could happen at any age.

Why not just bring race and gender into this? :rolleyes:

[Lonestar49]

...

I voted NO, mainly because IMO, the bad (irresponsible types) far out-weight the good (responsible types) at that young age.

Point in Case:

The other day, I went to my indoor Range, and there where only 2 shooters and I made the 3rd.

As I was loading, 9mm casings kept flying into my lane, head, on my platform, and I had no problems with that. But then I noticed his target was maybe 5ft out from his shooting station and full of holes all over. But what finally made me look from behind, at who the hell this nut was, and sure enough, some young man, and had to be min 21, to shoot there, had his new Glock resting on the platform, he was bent down shooting, and I kept seeing chalk come down from the ceiling deflectors, shot after shot. I looked back at who was the range officer, and it was really, no one, as just the 2 ladies were there, and not seeing nor watching. All this, just to see where his bullets were hitting (something). I really wanted to say something to him, but on the other hand, God knows why he bought the gun, and what his trip was, and didn't feel like taking a risk, if ya know what I mean. After 20 shots into the ceiling (2 mags) he then put up a new, fresh, small bulls eye target and put it out to the 15ft area, bringin in the one just 5ft out that looked like a machine gun had raked the entire target.

Sorry for the lack of confidence to anyone 18, but here's my reason, and with young 21 yr olds. The boredom sets in quick, the need for a thrill sets in quick and, screw the logic or rules, is a given ,for most, be it a fast car, a gun, drinking, driving, anger management, etc., and needs much refinement for most areas of bigger "choices" good or bad, that can effect other peoples lives.

All this, unseen by any range officers, as he walked out, with his new Glock in the plastic case it came in, and smiling at the lady, paying his bill, but had no such look of happiness shooting, quite the opposite.


IMHO


LS

[Nomad101bc]

21 is absurd it should be 18! I could do alot more damage with my CX4 and at alot further ranges than i could with a handgun. I signed up to do ROTC and they are going to tell me i cant operate a handgun even though i went through a pistol safety course? I passed the test with flying colors but something magics supposed to happen in 3 years? You can do alot more damage with a vote than any handgun. Face it theres no justifiable reason its just part of the "Brady Bunch's" scare tactics.

BTW whats to stop someone from illegaly obtaining a handgun? Any idiot who wants one can still hypotheticaly obtain one so once again your only punishing the law abiding citizens.

http://jafproject.net/images8/cx4.jpg

[Jason_G]

Quote:
What's bad is it's not even an age issue really.

Exactly, that could happen at any age.

Why not just bring race and gender into this?
Point taken, and I didn't make it clear in my post, but I do think that even though irresponsibility isn't necessarily a product of youth, it does seem more prevelant in younger folks. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.

Jason

[Lonestar49]

Quote: 21 is absurd it should be 18!
--------------------
...

Kinda hard to "conceal" a rifle.. let alone shoot one out of a car window, or hide it quick, if pulled over, etc.


LS


PS.. I read it wrong, and voted Yes when I should have voted NO so, the NO count is plus one more.

[kludge]

I voted for 18, since in Indiana you may apply for LCH at age 18 (licence to carry a handgun). Federal law prohibits purchacing a handgun from and FFL until 21 though. FTF and gift is OK at age 18.

I think I was 21 or 22 when I got my LCH.

However, if I were going to pick an age at which the average person is "all grow'd up" I would say 25.

[Nomad101bc]

I could easy conceal a 5 pound carbine in a backpack, duffle bag, trench coat, with a speed dot scope its designed for quick target acuisition, though your right a short barrel shotgun would be more effective...

[Feanaro]

I would settle for being able to buy pistol ammo at 18. You can own it at that age, no point in making those who do pester friends and family to buy ammunition for them. I know about this from experience. :scrutiny:

[Nomad101bc]

Since when could'nt you buy pistol ammunition? My carbine uses .40 cal pistol ammunition and I had no problem purchasing federal grade hollow points. What state do you live in that requires that type of rule?

[RancidSumo]

all states have an age requirement for buying handgun ammo

[Nomad101bc]

Well I am 18 is that the limit?

[ArmedBear]

Look, either you're an adult, or you're not.

Voting, drinking, prison, handguns, etc. should be 18. Or 21.

Not both. Maybe 16 should be the age of majority, across the board.

Screw up, pay the price as an adult. But enjoy the rights and freedoms, along with the responsibilities, of adulthood.

Many pioneers of the old West were in their teens, sometimes early teens. They were adults, and they faced tougher situations than most of us will ever face, raised children, succeeded or failed on their own merits in the wilderness.

I think that we have infantile 19-year-olds BECAUSE we tell them they're not really grownups yet. 19-year-olds successfully defended our country from the Nazis. Somehow I don't think they could have been as flaky as many 19-year-olds are now. Let's ask why.

http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2007/04/podcast-should-adolescence-be-abolished.html

[SniperStraz]

Good post ArmedBear.

[JesseL]

The more you delay the time that you start treating people like adults the longer it will take them to start behaving like adults.

And since when it it okay to deny people's rights based on demographic risks?

[Feanaro]

You cannot buy handgun ammo from a dealer if you are under 21. Which means I can lie about my age/the intended gun or get someone else to buy it for me. Option A is not very satisfactory, from a practical or moral standpoint. Option B is annoying.

Screw up, pay the price as an adult.

That's something that has always bothered me. When a child is charged as an adult, they are not otherwise treated as an adult. If found innocent, they are still a minor in the eyes of the law. :scrutiny: Ummm... run that by me again?

[psyopspec]

ArmedBear, I like what you had to say. RE 16 as age of majority, look at the way in which low or no drinking age in European countries removes the wind from the sails of rebellious allure.

I'm personally a bit troubled by the idea that some members don't think I should have been allowed to go armed prior to age 21. By the time I was 20 I'd voted, enlisted, and deployed, yet stateside I couldn't take responsibility for my own personal defense without recieving a handgun as a gift or going through a private seller (which I did). The sky didn't fall, I didn't go on a rampage, have an ND, shoot out lights while drunk, etc etc.

Incidentally, the last time I was flagged with the muzzle of an assault rifle, there wasn't an Iraqi, Iranian, or Syrian on the other end of it. It was a middle-aged American at the range who didn't change his safety habits when I asked nicely. I just packed up and left, but I didn't go off on a diatribe about how men age 40-50 ought not be allowed ownership of such weapons. If I had, it would be just as ridiculous as the idea that because of things that could go wrong with a certain age group we should wreck the fun (not to mention Constitutional Rights of majority) for all of them.

[MikePGS]

Whatever happened to "no taxation without representation"? No one seems to mind taking tax money from 18 year olds, even though for the most part laws don't generally side with those under the age of 21. Yet they're allowed to go to war, handle the responsibility of voting and buy rifles, which as we all know could potentially be much more lethal than handguns (no i am in no way shape or form saying that guns cause violence but rather if you were looking to be a nut a rifle is much more powerful than a handgun).

[AugustusMcCrae]

I vote Yes. I live in a state where I can get a high capacity semi-auto like an AK or AR but can't own a handgun of any type even a old fashioned 6-gun. It's insane.

[theken206]

ArmedBear, spot on my friend.

So to those of you who said no. Let me get this right. Im 19, Im trusted enough to vote in the leaders of my local goverment up to the POTUS. I can fight for and die for my country. I can purchase as many long guns as I see fit
from a licensed dealer. They goverment taxes my ass just like everyone else.

Yet I can not walk into a bar and pay for a drink with my hard earned money. I cant go up to my local state run{thats right kiddies no booze after 9 and none on sundays either} booze store and buy my self a bottle of single malt scotch.

Nor I am allowed to purchase from a licensed dealer nor allowed to conceal a hand gun.

I see something wrong with this.

Like the man before me said, so in the past young men like my self were "mature" enough to go fight the japs, the nazis, the north koreans ECT ECT but were they to come home in this day and age they couldnt exercise the rights of those a few years older becuase of some feel good BS laws??

[Nomad, 2nd]

At whatever age you can serve in the military you should be able to drink, vote and own whatever gun.

I was 19, and had been trained by the Marines to shoot a pistol, use explosives, and was issued a pistol and a Machinegun... but I couldn't buy ammo to train with the type of pistol I was issued!!!

Make it all the same age.

If someone can be responsable to drive they can be responsable to shoot.

18 works for me.

[Nomad101bc]

where is this 21 to buy pistol ammo coming from? I buy ammo and I am 18 and everyone at the gun store knows. I walk in and tell them i need x amount of pistol ammunition for my carbine. In fact i can go to my place and rent pistols shoot them and have no issue buying the ammo either. What state is this 21 to buy ammo in?

[armed85]

I think it should be eighteen, and then I see stuff like this that makes me think twice...
http://youtube.com/results?search_qu...raider&search=
What's bad is it's not even an age issue really. I think it's a much bigger problem of teenagers/young adults not being responsible or accountable for their own actions. It's unfortunate for the ones that grew up knowing how to be responsible, but the responsible ones are becoming more of the exception than the rule. MHO is that it stems from the huge number of parents not doing their job. How do people keep churning out these idiots, and then wonder why our public schools are getting shot up by students? Like it or not, it's folks like the ones in that video that prevent the legal purchasing age from being 18. I wish it were different.

Exactly, that could happen at any age.

Why not just bring race and gender into this?

Point taken, and I didn't make it clear in my post, but I do think that even though irresponsibility isn't necessarily a product of youth, it does seem more prevelant in younger folks. I don't see how anyone can argue against that.

One could also argue that more crime is committed by blacks because more of them are in jail than whites; therefore, we should ban handguns from blacks.

Rightly so, this would not fly with the American people. In fact, some of the first gun restriction or gun control laws were against blacks.

That is not to say I'm implying you're a racist or even judgemental.

When we see 1 or 2 or 10 people of a certain group doing bad things we tend to internalize this and assume everyone of those people in that group do bad things. You do it, I do it, everyone does it. We need to constantly recognize we do this and use logic rather than our emotions.

There's no unbiased evidence that I am aware of that suggests 18 year olds or blacks are more likely to commit crime or do bad things with handguns because of their age or race.

The evidence I have seen has been from antigun groups that would rather see handguns banned altogether.

[armed85]

I'd like to add another point:

I too serve active duty and I enlisted when I was 20. I'm now over 21, but I can sympathize with those that have been told you're "too immature" to buy a beer or buy some ammo or buy a handgun.

Coming back from Iraq or Afghanistan and hearing that is like getting kicked in the balls.

[Feanaro]

What state is this 21 to buy ammo in?

All of them. 18 USC 922(b) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html) reads:

It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

As far as I know, it is not a crime to buy the ammo if you are 18. But it is a crime for a dealer to sell the ammunition to you. At the least, I wouldn't be talking about buying ammo this way in public.

[Nomad101bc]

LMAO sounds like a pretty unenforcable law. Ohh no I buy pistol ammo for my carbine world has not ended. Ahh but heres a loophole I have completed an NRA basic pistol safety course and have all the requirements except age to obtain a concealed carry permit. Could that be why my gun store sells me pistol ammo?

[pdowg881]

If you are legally considered an adult at the age of 18, then under law you are as responible for your actions as any 60 year old. Therefore you should not be restricted more.

If I can buy a rifle or shotgun or any long arm that has more potential in throwing lead than a handgun, why can't I go to a store and buy the handgun? I think it's due to the perception that handguns are the most deadly firearm, and possibly because they are concealable.

[RevolvingCylinder]

Ask any insurance company about the amount of $$$ they have to pay out in death and injury claims (not to mention auto repairs) due to 16-17 year old drivers. I think you'll find they agree with me.

Are you saying that it has nothing to do with their lack of experience? Another high-risk group are the 18-24 year olds. Should they be limited on the vehicles the may drive or the times of day they may drive them?

ArmedBear, you're talking about that "evil" thing that is opposed by both sides of the political aisle..... PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

[pdowg881]

Many people are quick to say what they should and shouldn't be allowed to do, but their views quickly change when it comes to the younger age group.


Reminds me of the anti-gun average Joe can't be trusted with a firearm, only LEO and military type thing, but saying I'm mature unlike those meddling kids who shouldn't get a handgun.

[Feanaro]

Ahh but heres a loophole I have completed an NRA basic pistol safety course and have all the requirements except age to obtain a concealed carry permit. Could that be why my gun store sells me pistol ammo?

That could be why but it doesn't make it legal. Now, if the dealer is satisfied that the ammo is for a rifle, you can buy it at 18.

[Oldskoolfan]

I would say 18 means your an adult.

A lot of you talk about alcohol should know that in Germany 15 is the drinking age and 18 -20 (not sure the exact age) is the driving age. What happens is that the youth gets all the drinking and partying out of their system.

My personal feeling is that 18 should be the standard age. Military, all guns, alcohol, pornography, college financial aid, tobacco, age to be tried as an adult, driving, voting, and other things. It is wrong to try and set aside some ages as being more mature than others.

[obxned]

You can fight for your country, but you can't have a handgun or cold beer for another 3 years. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Geronimo45]

You know... we should probably have a maximum age for gun ownership. As you get old, your eyes will often begin to degrade. Dementia sometimes sets in, Alzheimers, memory loss...
When you hit social security age, you should be banned from owning handguns. Sure, some people still have all their marbles and their eyesight at that age... but why risk it?


P.S. This is sarcasm, before anybody blows a gasket.

[Nomad101bc]

Thats absurd and never would get passed. Elderly people are the most active voting group and by far the most vulnerable. Anyone deemed mentaly unstable cant own a gun anyway. Thus like all gun control legislation your just restricting someones rights and forcing excessive government control!

[armed85]

I think you missed the P.S.

[Jason_G]

One could also argue that more crime is committed by blacks because more of them are in jail than whites; therefore, we should ban handguns from blacks.

Rightly so, this would not fly with the American people. In fact, some of the first gun restriction or gun control laws were against blacks.

So if we're taking everything to the extreme for the sake of argument, should we let four year olds tote pistols for the sake of preventing age discrimination? Maturity has nothing to do with race or necessarily with gender, but it does have something to do with age. The point I was making in my original post is that the "epidemic" of irresponsible young adults is not being caused by their age but by bad parenting. Keeping the min. age at 21 just gives them a little more time to grow out of it... hopefully. By then, most have moved out and gotten a little taste of the real world and hopefully a dose of real adulthood. FWIW a kid that I taught, 18, just got arrested tonight for carrying onto a school campus. I agree that the enlistment age, etc., should all be the same, but I think they should all be 21 rather than 18.
My $.02.

Jason

[eastwood44mag]

If you're old enough to go to Iraq with an M16, I think you're capable of handling a sidearm.

[jefnvk]

Hmmm...

I owned a few handguns at 18 (at least one, can't remember when the others came along). Had 4 before I was 21, finally bought my first one from a gun store just a few weeks ago.

At 18 you are considered an adult. I am suprised to find so many that say that a legal adult should not have the right to own a handgun, because they could do something bad. I don't know that 18 is the proper age for adulthood, however the notion of adults not being completely free is ridiculious. Yes, I do include driving with that.

Now, how is the idea that a 20 year old shouldn't own a handgun cause they may do something bad, any better than the idea that no one should own a gun because they may do something bad?

[Feanaro]

Keeping the min. age at 21 just gives them a little more time to grow out of it

Or reaffirms that there is no need to act like an adult just yet.

By then, most have moved out and gotten a little taste of the real world

Which is to say, they are renting or are buying a house. It wouldn't be very adult to do these things with mommy and daddy's money, so they ought to have a job.

Buying a home or renting an apartment almost always requires a contract(others might disagree but I do not think college is like "the real world"). These contracts are usually longer than a 4473 form. Minors may not sign contracts. Additionally, minors cannot hold a "hazardous" job. Like making bricks or laying roofing. Back to quasi-adult status again.

[Mannix]

I can vote, I can sign up to serve my country and possibly get shot at, I can sue and be sued, I can choose to slowly kill myself by smoking, enter into contracts, or even throw my money away at a casino, so why should I have my 2nd amendment restricted?

I've never been convicted of ANYTHING. I am a FULL citizen, I do not pay lower taxes because of my age, I can be held to account for my actions to the same degree as any other citizen, whether they're 20 or 40, it makes NO DIFFERENCE. So, if all citizens are equal in the eyes of the law, WHY THE HELL SHOULDN'T I BE ABLE BUY A BEER OR A HANDGUN LIKE EVERYONE ELSE?

:fire::cuss::banghead::cuss::fire::cuss::banghead::cuss::fire::cuss::banghead::cuss::fire:

Once I can participate in government, I should NOT be treated any different than ANY other citizen.

[armed85]

Seeing how there's very little underage drinking, underage smoking, and very little use of illegal drugs like marijuana it's logical to assume that no one under 21 would own a handgun.

Not only do these laws make us feel good, they work!

[camslam]

With proper training 18 would be no problem. Unfortunately most 21 year olds, let alone 18 year olds don't have enough training or experience.

However, that shouldn't prevent people old enough to vote and do most anything else from being able to own a handgun.

It is a tough call, but I've got to go with the more lenient of choices.

[armed85]

If this is an issue young people care about, y'all ought to change the fact that young people have the lowest voting rate.

[Beagle-zebub]

I think it's funny that a bunch of people on a gun forum can't see the injustice of punishing responsible people (in this case, the ones under 21) for the irresponsibility of others. Adult criminals commit crimes with guns, so why not take guns away from all adults?

Another thing I don't understand is how handguns of all shapes, sizes and actuations are equal in the eyes of the law. What makes a handgun particularly awful? Now take that answer, and tell me how it applies to a Ruger Super Blackhawk, to say nothing of an S&W 500 or a TOZ-35.

[pdowg881]

I'm 19 and the only registered voter I personally know in my age group. My fear is that when I turn 40 only 3 out of 10 will even be registered to vote. Most kids today care about celebrities and not what the government is doing. I'm some kind of weirdo for even discussing govt. Nobody's going to care enough to even attempt to keep the government in check in 30 years.


Simply put, kids my age just don't care. They bitch all day about laws and stuff and when I say why don't you vote etc. they say that won't do anything. Of course it won't if nobody thinks it will then nobody's going to vote. It's a catch 22. They won't vote because they don't think it will make a difference yet thhe very reason they don't vote is why it doesn't make a difference.

[Euclidean]

As recent as the 1960s anyone of any age could buy a firearm from a pure legal perspective. That's the way it should be. Government has no business whatsoever interfering in a commercial transaction. Therefore I vote no because there should be no age restrictions.

[AF_INT1N0]

17 if you have military ID.

As someone said before, old enough to bear arms on the battlefield, old enough to bear arms at home.

The half citizenship experienced by adults between the ages of 18 and 21, has got to go. You are either old enough to be an adult, or you aren't.

That being said I don't see a reason for resricting sale of any item to anyone. IMHO an item is either legal, or is not. I don't think legislating an age restriction of Non PC items does anything but waste time and money.

Then again, I see no reason why someone should not be able to mail order a brand new, M-240 B and have it delivered to his doorstep. With 2 belts of pre-linked 7.62X 51.

[psyopspec]

So if we're taking everything to the extreme for the sake of argument, should we let four year olds tote pistols for the sake of preventing age discrimination?
I believe you're the first person to bring in some sort of universal standard of "age discrimination." Rather, those of us on the other side are arguing that there be a universal age of majority, and that 18 will do just fine for that age.

Keeping the min. age at 21 just gives them a little more time to grow out of it...
Let's see what I "grew out of."
Was 17 too young for me to join the military?
Was 18 too young for me to deploy to Iraq?
Perhaps I should have gone unarmed while overseas since 18 must be too young to carry an M-16 with a 203 Grenade Launcher attached.
Perhaps it pleases you that I couldn't go to VFW meetings once I got home, since they took place in a bar and I wasn't 21 at the time.
Perhaps I should turn in the gold bars I recently earned since I started my officer training when I was under 21.
Perhaps you should write the North Dakota Attorney General's office and berate them for the unconsciable act of issuing me a CCW when I was under 21.

Then again, perhaps you should quit pissing in mine and others' Wheaties for the transgressions of a few.

[Jason_G]

Jason G.
Quote:
So if we're taking everything to the extreme for the sake of argument, should we let four year olds tote pistols for the sake of preventing age discrimination?
I believe you're the first person to bring in some sort of universal standard of "age discrimination."
No, it was implied that I was being discriminatory by posts like this one (#25):
Exactly, that could happen at any age.

Why not just bring race and gender into this?

Rather, those of us on the other side are arguing that there be a universal age of majority, and that 18 will do just fine for that age.

I also said the same thing in post #59:
I agree that the enlistment age, etc., should all be the same, but I think they should all be 21 rather than 18.

Let's see what I "grew out of."
Was 17 too young for me to join the military?
Was 18 too young for me to deploy to Iraq?
Perhaps I should have gone unarmed while overseas since 18 must be too young to carry an M-16 with a 203 Grenade Launcher attached.
Perhaps it pleases you that I couldn't go to VFW meetings once I got home, since they took place in a bar and I wasn't 21 at the time.
Perhaps I should turn in the gold bars I recently earned since I started my officer training when I was under 21.
Perhaps you should write the North Dakota Attorney General's office and berate them for the unconsciable act of issuing me a CCW when I was under 21.

Then again, perhaps you should quit pissing in mine and others' Wheaties for the transgressions of a few.
First of all I'm not pissing in anyone's Wheaties. I'm entitled to what I believe in, and I'd appreciate it if you'd respect that the same way I respect your opinion. It's a friendly discussion, let's keep it that way.
As far as being military, I appreciate your service. In post #59, I started to type something to this effect, but I thought it was obvious and it was getting late so I didn't bother:
18 for a civilian and 18 for someone in the service is not the same. An 18 year old that has been living under mommy's roof and lacks anything resembling responsibility and accountability is not the same as someone that's been through basic training and is actually relied upon to do a job effectively. If an 18 year old that's immature goes into the military, they will force him to "man up". It's not the same thing.

Jason

[ArmedBear]

I'm 19 and the only registered voter I personally know in my age group.

Thank God! I hate to think about most modern-day 19-year-olds voting. I still think that restructuring our laws and society such that 19-year-olds are held to adult standards, and FEEL like adults, would go a long way towards changing what it means to be 19 in 2007 America.

But for the moment, I'm glad you're voting, and I'm equally glad your acquaintances are not.

My fear is that when I turn 40 only 3 out of 10 will even be registered to vote.

Thank God for that, too. Maybe if they can someday tell me who Thomas Jefferson was, I'd want them to vote, but otherwise, let them abstain. I don't want uninformed, stupid voters, be they 18 or 68.

Most kids today care about celebrities and not what the government is doing.

...in which case I'm damn glad they don't vote!

[JesseL]

Jason_G:

Despite the dangers, we have got to assume that adults will act like adults until they prove otherwise - even young adults. Age doesn't bring wisdom or responsibility, experience does. Denying people experiences until they're older doesn't mean they'll be more responsible, they'll just be older.

You should expect people to get irate when you make statements that imply they should be denied their basic human rights because they fall within a demographic (which they have no control over) that you don't trust. Disenfranchising any individual for someone else's actions is an inherantly offensive act.

[Jason_G]

Despite the dangers, we have got to assume that adults will act like adults until they prove otherwise - even young adults.

You should expect people to get irate when you make statements that imply they should be denied their basic human rights because they fall within a demographic (which they have no control over) that you don't trust. Disenfranchising any individual for someone else's actions is an inherantly offensive act.
First of all, I am not out to take any "basic human rights" away from anyone. Believe me, I hear what you're saying, and know where you're coming from, but bottom line is this:
I teach high school. I have 18 yr olds all day. I am being completely honest with you when I say that, at the most, maybe 3 out of every 10 would be responsible enough to own a handgun and be safe with it. Out of that same ten, would you like to guess which ones are the ones that want to own a handgun? I agree it's not right, but until they can come up with a test for maturity that can be taken when purchasing a gun (that'll probably never happen), or someone comes up with a better idea, that's the best we've got.

Jason

[ArmedBear]

Note that what I propose would only work if we had "comprehensive responsibility reform.":)

[JesseL]

Jason_G:

I understand the phenomenon you're talking about, but think about what's likely to improve it and what's likely to make it worse. Those 18 years olds you teach would probably be much more mature if they were expected to act like adults and treated like adults.

Regardless, issues of practicality, expedience, and utility should never enter the equation when determining human rights. This is a matter of principle. Bad things happen when you start compromising principles with arguments about ends justifying means.

[Jason_G]

Those 18 years olds you teach would probably be much more mature if they were expected to act like adults and treated like adults.

I agree, but alot of kids these days just don't care what's expected of them. They have no one to answer to. If we're going to change alot of other things that will make it more conducive to lower the age requirements, I'll go along with that. But in the meantime, just lowering the age limit isn't going to produce more responsible teenagers. There needs to be stricter laws about students attending school (and both the parent(s) and the teenager should be held accountable), juvenile courts in general need to be tougher, ...there's a long list of things that need to be done. Maybe then I'd agree with the lowering of the age.
Also, I'd like to reiterate that I'm not proposing taking rights away from anyone. I'm just saying that there needs to be some solidarity on the age of adulthood, and that I think the age (if I have to choose between 18 and 21) should be 21. If we're going to argue that having an age limit is the same as denying human rights, why don't we open the polls to 9 year olds? I'm not being a smart-alec, I'm just saying that having an age limit and the denial of human rights isn't the same thing.

Jason

[Prince Yamato]

I say 18 for Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. 16 with parent's permission. Also 18 for voting and military service.

[Jason_G]

I say 18 for Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
We tried 18 for alcohol here before. FWIW, it has always ended up getting switched back to 21.

Jason

[Prince Yamato]

Look if you're old enough to determine who governs your streets and old enough to die defending your streets, then you're old enough to get drunk and puke on your streets.

[MT GUNNY]

Figure this out, here in MT have to be 21 to buy a pistol,
but you can posses a pistol if 18 and over,

[MEH]

I'm 18 years old and I've owned a handgun since I was 14 or 15. I really wish I could get a carry permit at 18 and personally I think I'm responsible enough to own and carry a firearm.

Unfortunately most people 18, 21, 25 and sometimes older are not responsible at all and I wouldn't trust them with any type of gun.

That being said, I don't think Uncle Sam should stick his nose in our business and if your old enough to work, join the military, pay taxes, vote, drive a car, get married, and your parents are no longer responsible for your actions, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to walk into a store and buy a handgun whenever you want.

[Glockman17366]

I didn't read the thread so this may be a duplicate...

If a person is old enough to fight and die for his country (or, in my case, be drafted way back when), they're old enough for full and complete rights.
That includes buying a handgun.

[sailing824]

I'm new here and this is my first post.
Personally I am a strong proponent on mandatory military service at 18. Though I question the feasibility of it I think it has a lot of benefits. For one it will teach gun safety to every person. This also increases the maturing process. Being in the military I believe would provide every person with a respect for firearms and what it means to be a citizen of this country.
This would also solve a lot of other problems such as childhood obesity, the lack of former military personnel running this country, teach independance and self reliance to my generation so that they do not feel it necessary to use social programs.
I dont know that in our country this is possible but I feel it would have great benefits.

[CZ.22]

[QUOTE I'm 19 and the only registered voter I personally know in my age group. My fear is that when I turn 40 only 3 out of 10 will even be registered to vote. Most kids today care about celebrities and not what the government is doing. I'm some kind of weirdo for even discussing govt. Nobody's going to care enough to even attempt to keep the government in check in 30 years.


Simply put, kids my age just don't care. They bitch all day about laws and stuff and when I say why don't you vote etc. they say that won't do anything. Of course it won't if nobody thinks it will then nobody's going to vote. It's a catch 22. They won't vote because they don't think it will make a difference yet thhe very reason they don't vote is why it doesn't make a difference.
QUOTE]
I hear you
I turn 14 tommorow, and I hink I'm the only one in my class who gives a crap about politics, our nation, our fundamental rights, etc
Sure they'll cry about Jordin winning American idol, but they don't know who's running for President

I will naturally be biased in this argument, as I am young, but if you're old enough to enlist, yo should be able to buy a handgun.
Drinking, I'm not sure.

[langenc]

"with proper firearms training certificate"

My copy of the 2A dont list that as a prequisite.

[GunNut]

18, you can join the military so why not buy a handgun from a dealer.

What makes no sense is that in most(all?) states you can buy and own a handgun as long as you get it from a private party.

Steve

[RancidSumo]

I'm new here and this is my first post.
Personally I am a strong proponent on mandatory military service at 18. Though I question the feasibility of it I think it has a lot of benefits. For one it will teach gun safety to every person. This also increases the maturing process. Being in the military I believe would provide every person with a respect for firearms and what it means to be a citizen of this country.
This would also solve a lot of other problems such as childhood obesity, the lack of former military personnel running this country, teach independance and self reliance to my generation so that they do not feel it necessary to use social programs.
I dont know that in our country this is possible but I feel it would have great benefits.

Mandatory military service, thats one reson that I don't live in Israel. Some people are just too dumb to be in the military and others are just not cut out for it. Can you honestly say that you would rather have some of our best and brightest in the military then going to college and filling some of the other important jobs?

[Surefire]

I'm in my 30s, and I still would vote for yes on 18.

If young adults can go to war and die at 18, they should be allowed to drink and buy handguns at 18 too.

[EricTheBarbarian]

the only plus I can see to waiting until you are 21 was so i didnt buy any junk guns. I probably would have when i was only 18. I knew more about guns at 21 than I did at 18. Maybe Ill even know more when im 30 but i dont think I should have to wait until then.

dont believe that garbage about 18 year olds not being mature enough. I know some 14 year olds more mature than alot of 21 year olds I go to college with. the age number is arbitrary. they just need a bs law to make people feel safer.

[SniperStraz]

RancidSumo said:
Mandatory military service, thats one reson that I don't live in Israel. Some people are just too dumb to be in the military and others are just not cut out for it.
If you know anything about the Israeli military, you'd know that the testing process is pretty vigorous and that everyone is given both mental and physical testing that determines exactly what they can handle and if they can be trusted. The same could easily be done in the US. Mental, psychological, and physical testing could not only determine who is fit for the military, but that psychological testing could be filed in LE databases where they could be used to find likely suspects to specific crimes. I think a mandatory draft is a great idea.

[07Lway]

Just so everyone knows where this is coming from, I am 18 years old.

I am old enough (and responsible enough) to: sign a contract, get a credit card, buy a house, be responsible for myself and property, smoke, buy a shotgun or rifle (and ammo) from an FFL, serve my country, pay taxes, vote, and watch/buy porn...

That seems nice. I am an adult. I get an apartment, and start paying for everything with my own money. Then I try to buy some red and white wine for a cooking class I am taking in my now very limit free time, and I cannot for I am not old enough :(. That was a little weird, I thought I was an adult? Oh, well.

Later on I get invited to go to a nearby casino with some co-workers. Now I have never gambled, but I do have 30 dollars from that mail-in rebate that finally came in (I forgot what it was for, as it took 6-12 weeks to get here), and I can afford to lose that, so what the heck I agree to go with everyone. I get there and am greeted by a foul stench of smoke, and a big sign that says I am not old enough to gamble away my money. What? How can I be old enough to earn and spend my money the way I see fit, but cannot play games of chance (with bad odds) until I am 21 (unless of course it is a state backed gambling game such as the lotto, or scratch offs)?

Well this is getting kind of dumb. At least I can now get that CZ75 stainless I have been waiting for months and months to get. I get to the store and soon see the big soul crushing signs. I go home, and find out that only FFL's cannot sale me the pistol. So I start looking for a stainless CZ75 in local papers and private sales. I find four, but none of the owners believe that it is legal to sale to an 18 year old chil- urhh adult?

Enough of this crap! If I an adult then great. Let me be an adult. If I am still a child, then do not treat me like an adult until I do something that I am not responsible enough to do, and then treat me like a child. Pick an age and stick with it.