Dual Citizenship - What rights do I sacrifice?


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MrPeter
June 14, 2007, 02:36 PM
I haven't seen this question asked yet, even after searching, so please forgive me if this has been addressed before.

I was born in the United States after my parents came to America from Europe. They were escaping the communist regime there and decided they didn't want to start a family under their occupied home country of Czechoslovakia (at the time, now Czech Republic). When they came here, my folks had my brother and myself both before they were officially immigrated into the country. So, because I was born in America while my parents still only had Czech passports, I am eligible for dual citizenship. I have my American passport of course, and for several reasons I would like to be a citizen of the Czech Republic as well. However, the last time I bought a handgun, I noticed a box that asks if I hold citizenship in the United States exclusively (not worded that way).

My question to THR is what if I am successful and become a dual citizen? When I write "NO" in that box, will I be denied my right to own a handgun? Will I have issues renewing my CCW permit? How are 2A rights handled for people with dual citizenship?

I don't see any practical reason for me to lose my rights as an American Citizen, and frankly I am a little offended at that question on the form (not that I'm not offended at several of those questions.. Who cares if I'm white or black or hispanic? That shouldn't effect their decision to let me have another handgun! :mad: )

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ArmedBear
June 14, 2007, 02:43 PM
I was born in America while my parents still only had Czech passports, I am eligible for dual citizenship.

How do you go about getting this?

I didn't know I could go back and get another citizenship.

I'm not sure about the answer to your question. I'm curious about that, too.

STAGE 2
June 14, 2007, 02:46 PM
If you were born here than you are a US citizen. Your status in the Czech republic depends on their laws. Some countries allow dual citizenship and some don't. If I recall my immigration law correctly (and that was a long time ago), there isn't anything in US law preventing you from having dual citizenship. When they ask you questions like "are you a US citizen" your answer is yes. Its doesnt matter if you are a citizen somewhere else as well because thats not what the question is asking. As a result I don't know why you would anser no to that question.

Of course to get a completely correct answer its best to call an immigration attorney since that part of my file cabinet is covered in cobwebs.

Sistema1927
June 14, 2007, 02:48 PM
I am a dual citizen. I always check "Dual Citizen" on the 4473, and then write in USA and Canada. I have never been deferred or denied. (I buy lots of guns, and I even have a C&R).

YMMV, but being a dual citizen has no downside for me. Carrying two passports, one of them from a "benign" nation, can sometimes be a benefit.

MikeH
June 14, 2007, 02:49 PM
In principle, dual citizens are treated just like any other US citizen within the US territory. For example, we cannot use foreign passports to enter/leave the US. If we get into legal trouble, we cannot claim to be a foreign citizen and seek help from the embassy of our "other" country. So I don't think 2A rights should be affected either.

MD_Willington
June 14, 2007, 02:51 PM
..tricky stuff...

After I get my citizenship, I'll have THREE...

US, CDN, & UK...

Henry Bowman
June 14, 2007, 03:07 PM
As I understand it, the USA does not recognize dual citizenship (even though they recognize that other countries do). The USA considers you to be either a US citizen or a citizen of another country. I've known several people with dual citizenship and it has never seemed to cause them any grief here.

Sunray
June 14, 2007, 03:17 PM
Read this. http://www.*************support.org/dual_citizenship.html

MrPeter
June 14, 2007, 03:40 PM
Yes, the law is such that if you are born by people with citizenship of another country in America, you are an American Citizen by default, and if your country dictates its citizenship by default by birth, then you are born with dual citizenship.

The Czech Rebublic doesn't make me a citizen just because I was born by two Czech passport holders, but I can apply for it, and I will likely be accepted. The Czech Republic really looks down on Dual Citizenship though. I would like it for property-owning reasons.

So I guess that won't change my CCW status or ability to buy handguns then? Well now that is wonderful news. It concerned me that there was a question on that form that specifically asks about citizenship status.

Now I just have to find out more about gun laws in the Czech Republic. It seems easy enough to get a "non-evil" gun, such as a bolt action or lever action rifle longer than 24", but it may be a challenge to get a handgun. It seems though like if you can get the lisence to get a handgun, then you can carry it wherever you go? Maybe I can't find laws about it CCW because the laws don't exist?

geekWithA.45
June 14, 2007, 03:58 PM
My daughters are dual citizens.

The basic legal deal is that America doesn't 'recognize' dual citizenships, and therefore from the point of view of American law, there is no additional power or impairment that comes with dual citizenship.

The basic nature of the thing is simply that America can't do a darned thing about how another soveriegn nation defines "citizen". For example, Russia, where my daughters were born, has a "once a Russian, always a Russian" view of citizenship, and therefore insists that they are Russian Federation citizens, and there is no mechanism for severing that relationship. Fortunately, they can only enforce this when they are in RF jurisdiction. The practical aspect of this is that if they ever visit Russia, they must use their Russian passports to enter, rather than their American passports.

The only thing to watch out for is any act that may cast your own citizenship into doubt. The courts are pretty lenient, though, it's hard (but not impossible!) to lose your American citizenship by adhesion. You must take some action that has the explicit intention of giving up your US citizenship.

kbarrett
June 14, 2007, 04:24 PM
If you run for office in a foreign country, or enlist in a foreign army, or accept a foreign title, the feds may consider that to be voluntarily revoking one's citizenship.

If your second citizenship will draft you into the army, you might have a problem.

Make certain that the Czech Republic won't force you into military service if you become a citizen under a certain age. Being a permanent foreign resident may be less trouble.

geekWithA.45
June 14, 2007, 04:37 PM
kbarrett: Those are the "adhesion" actions I was making reference to.

The statutes specify them as actions that may be indicative of surrendering citizenship, but it's not quite as automatic as that. Like I said, the courts generally hold that it must be your explicit intention to give up your citizenship, and the only reliable way to do it is to formally renounce in front of a consular official.

It's sort of like getting kicked out of the Catholic Church: you have to document yourself teaching heresy, knowing it to be heresy, with malice aforesight before they'll take you off the rolls. As a result, most people don't bother, as it's a pain in the buttocks to videotape oneself preaching Sabellianism on a streetcorner just so you can mail it to the pope.

You are correct to indicate caution if any of these things are a possibility, however, as the law is a little unpredictable here. Lawyers are needed.

ArJuna
June 14, 2007, 04:57 PM
I was in a similar situation and about 12 years ago I claimed my dual citizenship between the USA and France. I did this due to a job opportunity I had in the UK. The French passport, which is also a European Union passport allowed me to work there without any other hurdles.

Anyway, as far as rights, I have all the rights of BOTH with no negative impact from either. I have since purchased dozens of guns, including handguns, machine guns, and suppressors. I think it slowed me up one time when I bought a rifle in PA and the state police delayed on approval.

Go for it, it may even help you when the New World Order decides to impose martial law in the USA.

Tim James
June 14, 2007, 06:30 PM
I imagine it would raise red flags for a security clearance, but may still be okay for approved countries.

Evil Monkey
June 14, 2007, 06:38 PM
I have dual citizenship. US and Canadian.

My family and I travel to Canada ALL THE TIME, to visit my grandparents. Never had any trouble going in and out through the boarders.

If you want multiple citizenships and there's nothing legally that says you can't do that, then go for it.

TallPine
June 14, 2007, 07:52 PM
I have duel citizenship. US and Canadian

Are we at war with Canada ???? :D

Evil Monkey
June 14, 2007, 08:38 PM
It's fixed.

Duel and Dual are words that I just don't use very often. I don't even remember using them since the start of 2007. :)

MikeH
June 14, 2007, 08:44 PM
Ways that a naturalized US citizen can lose citizenship:
http://www.newcitizen.us/losing.html

Autolycus
June 14, 2007, 08:47 PM
Where are all the posts talking about how we should end the anchor baby laws and all that?

Frog48
June 14, 2007, 08:52 PM
Ways that a naturalized US citizen can lose citizenship:
http://www.newcitizen.us/losing.html

He said he's a natural-born US citizen, not naturalized, so some of those circumstances would not apply to him.

JerryM
June 14, 2007, 09:05 PM
It is my view that there should not be dual citizenships.
A person should have allegiance to only one country.

Jerry

xd9fan
June 14, 2007, 09:08 PM
U.S. and Swiss
that would be....sweeet

Sistema1927
June 14, 2007, 10:28 PM
It is my view that there should not be dual citizenships.
A person should have allegiance to only one country.

Some of us didn't have a choice. I received both of my temporal citizenships at birth. Of course, my highest allegiance is to a kingdom not of this world.

cloudcroft
June 14, 2007, 10:45 PM
There's no such thing as dual citizenship, just as there is no such thing as a hypenated American. You can't be loyal to two different countries, can't have two masters. Choose one or the other.

If someone is confused about where his/her loyalty lies, he/she should be deported. People coming here and becoming American citizens need to forget about WTH they came from...it doesn't matter where they came from, they're supposed to Americans now. If not, they should go back. If it was so great THERE, why be HERE?

It's that simple...always has been.

Besides the pathetic illegal Mexican immigration issue and the change those people will have on this country, this "dual citizenship" and "hyphenated American" crap is one big reason America is losing its identity.

Flame away...I won't be arguing with anyone here, I just want this posted as a dissenting view and for the record.

-- John D.

P.S. You DO have a choice: Give one of the citizenships up. Renounce it.

But I agree that my FIRST loyalty is ALSO to a higher kingdom...AND a higher law. But down here in this temporal world, I am an American living in America...where I came from is unimportant.

Mannix
June 14, 2007, 10:46 PM
It depends, since your parents are from there, it might not be a problem. The only problem that will arise is if the Czech Republic citizenship process requires to renounce your US citizenship.

Many countries require you to do so(like Switzerland) unless you meet certain criteria. Marrying a citizen, being the child of a citizen(though sometimes you also have to be a minor), are exceptions, though there may be others(Those are just the two I remember reading about).

I would suggest getting in contact with the Czech embassy if you want more information concerning possible renunciation.

Though we are not in conflict with the Czech Republic at this time, and it's unlikely we will in the foreseeable future, I would suggest you really consider your reasoning. Being a citizen comes with certain responsibilities, and they should not be taken lightly.

fallingblock
June 14, 2007, 10:47 PM
U.S., New Zealand and Australia.

When I bought my SP 101 last October, the NICS people asked how long I'd lived in each country. I don't know if that was relevant to the approval or just curiosity on their part - but the sale went through with no problems.:)

The answer seems to be that since the U.S. doesn't officially recognize multiple nationalities, just affirm that you are a U.S. citizen on the 4473 form.

One possible problem since interlinking of anti-terror programs between nations is the use of one's local passport to depart for a destination where one also holds a passport. Airline staff may refuse the use of you local passport on a 'return' ticket. This actually happened to me at the QANTAS desk in L.A. last year. It took a while to get sorted out but was due to poor/inadequate training of the QANTAS staff.

Prince Yamato
June 14, 2007, 10:53 PM
When I was living in Canada, I was looking into dual-citizenship. Here's how I was told it works according to INS.

I can have citizenship in both countries, but in the US, they only recognize the US citizenship. IE, if there was a draft in the US, I couldn't say, "but I'm a Canadian too". Likewise, if there was a draft in Canada, and I remained in the US and Canada said, "he's one of ours," the US would say, "Umm, no, he's ours" and I wouldn't get extradited (well, at least in an ideal world).

Incidentally, the only reason I looked into dual citizenship was for employment purposes. I'd never consider it again... unless Stephen Harper would throw in a free Prohibited Class liscence and ATC :evil:

Autolycus
June 14, 2007, 11:13 PM
Cloudcroft: What identity is America losing? Could you elaborate?

I think all one should have to do to become a citizen is swear allegiance to this country. Nothing else. That is what the founding fathers intended and wrote into law.

Johannes_Paulsen
June 15, 2007, 07:02 AM
But I agree that my FIRST loyalty is ALSO to a higher kingdom...AND a higher law. But down here in this temporal world, I am an American living in America...where I came from is unimportant.

Hey -- love it or leave it, commie!

geekWithA.45
June 15, 2007, 09:21 AM
Some folks are merging the two distinct meanings of the word citizenship.

One is a technical noun, having to do with the rules/laws/definitions of a soveriegn nation. The reality is, East BeacoupChipMunkistan could enact legislation claiming that people born in Massachussetts in February are its citizens, but its impact would be zero on such folk, unless they were actually IN East BeacoupChipMunkistan.

The other is an active verb of the heart, having to do with the allegiance to a nation/laws/people/ideals.

Sistema1927
June 15, 2007, 09:44 AM
cloudcroft, (one of my favorite places BTW)

Sorry to get your panties in a twist, but I don't see how my carrying both US and Canadian passports is somehow causing this country to lose its "identity".

I am not a Canadian-American nor an American-Canadian. No hyphenation here.

I am a citizen of the United States of America, and also a subject of the Queen of England as a Canadian.

On my father's side I am 11th generation, with my progenitor arriving at the Massachusetts Bay Colony from England on the Lyon's Whelp in 1629. On my mother's side I am 1st generation, with my mother arriving in New York City on the Queen Mary in 1950.

When I was born in Newfoundland, Canada my mother was still a British subject, and my father was a US serviceman. As a result, I gained dual citizenship at birth (if my mother had not been a subject of the crown I would not have). I lived in England for a total of 5 years before ending up in your fair city when my Dad was assigned to the Vietnamese language school at Biggs Field.

I have never had any problems with "allegiance", and carry a retired ID card from the US Army. I see no reason why you would be upset that I can travel to various places in the world without visa hassles using my Canadian passport, or how that is somehow causing an "identity problem" here at home. (I have never had any problem with my identity.)

Yet, as I stated earlier, all the kingdoms of this world (including my beloved USA, the greatest nation on earth) are temporal, and my highest allegiance is to the Prince of Peace who rules over all of the kingdoms of men.

SWMAN
June 15, 2007, 11:51 AM
imagine it would raise red flags for a security clearance, but may still be okay for approved countries.

Dual citizens are not granted DoD security clearances.

striker3
June 15, 2007, 12:42 PM
Dual citizens are not granted DoD security clearances.

Not true. While you must be a US Citizen to hold a DoD clearance, I have never seen someone denied for being a dual citizen. Even with naturalized citizens, I have never personally seen someone required to renounce their original citizenship to recieve a clearance, and I have known a few who hold clearances.

MrPeter
June 15, 2007, 02:36 PM
I would suggest getting in contact with the Czech embassy if you want more information concerning possible renunciation.

Though we are not in conflict with the Czech Republic at this time, and it's unlikely we will in the foreseeable future, I would suggest you really consider your reasoning. Being a citizen comes with certain responsibilities, and they should not be taken lightly.


Mannix, thank you for your constructive comments. I am in contact with the Czech Embassy and will certainly continue to thoroughly contemplate the implications of dual citizenship.

On the note of possible conflict between the USA and the EU or the Czech Republic, not only do I doubt that this will happen in my lifetime (and I most certainly could be very wrong), but, to the poster who questions my allegiance to this country I say this: Just like the current conflict in Iraq I am not going to blindly follow the country I am living in into conflict because my government believes that a war is a worthy cause. I will not have anything to do with a country that requires its citizens to serve in the military, so that I may have the choice to give my life for what I believe in or not. I do not hold an Iraqi citizenship and yet I still do not agree with the war that is going on there and I never have. If America claims to be built on questioning the government and valuing the freedom of the people in this great country, then I believe my opinion is the most patriotic and American than it could be.
If there WAS a conflict between the EU and the US, I can assure you that whether I held the passport of either country or not, my allegance would be held with the side that was in the moral right. Some have described this as having allegance with a "higher kingdom". Not being religious I don't use that terminology, but that does not mean that I have a sense of morals, or I don't know the difference between right and wrong, and it certainly does not make me any less AMERICAN.
[/rant]

Sorry about that, I know it was a little off topic.

I have already made the decision based on other factors to apply for my dual citizenship. I was just unsure about whether or not I would be denied my 2A with all of the "homeland security" !%#@ that's going on lately. I'm very glad to hear that it will not come into question.

I may have to start a new thread for this, but does anyone know where I can find international gun control laws? I need to find out if I can carry in Czech Rep.

avmech
June 15, 2007, 03:51 PM
you should lose no US rights as a dual citizen

SalTx
June 16, 2007, 01:39 AM
Dual citizenship? The answer is to give up the U.S. and return to your beloved country which gives you all you desire and leave us Americans to our lonely selves.

Prince Yamato
June 16, 2007, 05:13 PM
When I was born in Newfoundland,

You're a Newfie!

And now you and I share a joke with the ~5 other Canadians on THR.

It's ok though, I used to wonder why Canadians would get mad when I said how much I loved Toronto...

the Prince of Peace who rules over all of the kingdoms of men.

I hear Saudi Arabia doesn't recognize his passport... though I bet if he got a Canadian one, they would. Or maybe just a Tim Horton's patch on his cloak. :)

jselvy
June 16, 2007, 05:52 PM
DON'T knock Tim Horton's
It is the quickest way to start a war with Possum Lodge.

Jefferson

Prince Yamato
June 16, 2007, 06:49 PM
I don't think Harold or Red have an ATC, so I'm not too worried ;)

jselvy
June 16, 2007, 06:58 PM
with enough duct tape anything is possible :)

Jefferson

Glenn Kelley
June 16, 2007, 07:42 PM
Sistema1927,
If you are a subject of the Queen of England it is because your mother was British.Elisebeth 2 is the Queen of Canada separate from her status in England.In other words if she lost her position in England she would not automatically lose it here...or Australia or New Zealand.

Sistema1927
June 16, 2007, 10:45 PM
Glenn,

I didn't quite understand your post. According to the sources that I have seen, even though the various citizenship acts have changed the "subject/citizenship" status several times over the years, nationals of countries of which Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is Head of State may still be referred to as "Her Majesty's subjects".

My Canadian passport says (in both English and French):

The Minister of Foreign Affairs of Canada requests, in the name of her Majesty the Queen, all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary.

Interestingly enough, US passports state (in English, French, and Spanish):

The Secretary of State of the United States of America hereby requests all whom it may concern to permit the citizen/national of the United States named herein to pass without delay or hindrance and in case of need to give all lawful aid and protection.

I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time), but as a Canadian citizen I am a subject of Her Majesty the Queen even if I had not obtained my Canadian citizenship by virtue of my my mother's status at the time of my birth.

Growing up with British grandparents, having lived in England, and with my mother still exercising a definite Essex accent, I have to admit that I still have a love for mother England, and even tune in to the Queen's speech on Christmas Day.

Glenn Kelley
June 17, 2007, 03:28 PM
1927,
You and I are subjects of the Queen because she is the Head of State of Canada.
In your original post you referred to her as the Queen of England.Her situation as the Queen of England has nothing to do with your being Canadian.
I understand your fondness for the land of your mothers birth it's natural.I hope you don't mind that I feel the need to point out that my country is an independent nation.

Cannonball888
June 17, 2007, 04:57 PM
I have single citizenship but dual personalities.


What he^ said.

Sistema1927
June 17, 2007, 08:40 PM
Glenn,

I fully understand your point now.

However, what do you think the odds are that she will still be the Head of State of Canada when she is no longer the Queen of England?

jefnvk
June 18, 2007, 02:43 AM
My family and I travel to Canada ALL THE TIME, to visit my grandparents. Never had any trouble going in and out through the boarders.


Well, I'm no dual citizen, but I've never had a problem getting into Canada with anything more than a smile and well, a smile. Border patrol let me through without even looking at a drivers license.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but to you dual citizens, do y'all get taxed twice?

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