C&R question


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eastwood44mag
June 14, 2007, 11:42 PM
OK, so the rule of thumb is 50 years, but there are always exceptions to the rule. Here's my question:

If a firearm is at least 50 years old, and in original-issued condition, under what terms would it NOT be eligible as a C&R? I know that modifications can screw things up, but if there have been no changes, is there anything that can disqualify it?

Thanks.

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Neo-Luddite
June 15, 2007, 12:20 AM
The only sure thing is to get a ruling from ATF and have it added to the list.
What CAN disqualify it is whatever the ATF decides can disqualify it. I know that's not the hard and fast answer you want--but my understanding is that the C/R list is not hard and fast. As a result, we get seemingly odd things added (Yugo SKS with a grenade launcher, night sights, and flash hider has been a recent one). There isn't a 'point' system or anything like that that I'm aware of.

Car Knocker
June 15, 2007, 12:22 AM
Auto or select-fire that has never been on the registry.

eastwood44mag
June 15, 2007, 12:29 AM
Looking at semi-auto or manual-cycling guns, only. I'm not a stamp collector (yet)

jrfoxx
June 15, 2007, 01:56 AM
Auto or select-fire that has never been on the registry
also, short-bareled shotguns and rifles, I beleive.Otherwise, if its on the ATF's list, OR is 50 or more years old and hasn't been modified in certain ways, it's a C&R.

Gordon Fink
June 15, 2007, 03:23 AM
I believe the restrictions on modification apply only to curios, but the BATFE has made exceptions (e.g., Yugoslavian m1959/66 in California). Any firearm over 50 years old is a relic, regardless of condition.

~G. Fink

tulsamal
June 15, 2007, 10:31 AM
Any firearm over 50 years old is a relic, regardless of condition.

Wrong.

Any significant modification changes its status. So if you buy a 60 year old bolt action rifle and then replace the stock and shorten the barrel, it isn't C&R any more!

Can't help it. I didn't make the rules.

The basic idea is that it was a collectible rifle before. "Original condition." Now you have just turned it into a deer rifle and it is regulated like any other modern bolt action.

Gregg

Rumble
June 15, 2007, 10:36 AM
Gregg: out of curiosity, do you know what would a C&R FFL do with a gun that they bought as C&R, but then say, replaced the stock and shortened the barrel on?

I don't have the inclination or skill to do significant modifications to my guns, but assuming I did, would I need to log the rifle out of my bound book, to myself? This is a scenario I never really thought of (not being a tinkerer).

tulsamal
June 15, 2007, 10:37 AM
Auto or select-fire that has never been on the registry.

C&R stuff seems to confuse people. That's wrong as well. There is a LOT of C&R full auto stuff.

Read Section IV at the top and then scroll down to the full list toward the bottom. Whole lot of machine guns. You still have to do the transfer paperwork but C&R status can make things easier at the end.

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/relics/index.htm

Gregg

tulsamal
June 15, 2007, 10:40 AM
Gregg: out of curiosity, do you know what would a C&R FFL do with a gun that they bought as C&R, but then say, replaced the stock and shortened the barrel on?

The way I understand it, there is no reason to log the rifle out of your bound book. You bought it as C&R and you haven't sold it. You keep it on your book but you can no longer sell it as a C&R firearm. So don't make a bunch of modifications to an old bolt action and then sell it as a C&R firearm and ship it across state lines. If you want to sell it you will have to go FTF in state or transfer it out of state using an FFL just like a modern gun.

Gregg

Rumble
June 15, 2007, 10:43 AM
Makes sense. Thanks!

tulsamal
June 15, 2007, 10:44 AM
I'm going to put in a link here. This is a sticky thread from the FAL Files. It includes a lot of embedded links that should answer any questions anybody has. Plus gives you ways to download the forms and what to use for a bound book, etc.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33083

Gregg

ilbob
June 15, 2007, 10:51 AM
Auto or select-fire that has never been on the registry.That is not so. FA firearms can be C&R. They still are FA firearms and you still have to go through the same rigmarole, you can just have it shipped to you direct without going through a dealer.

here is an example from their list.

Section IV – NFA firearms classified as curios or relics, still subject to the provisions of 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, the National Firearms Act, and 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44, the Gun Control Act of 1968.

Browning, Automatic Rifle M1918A2, S/N 00229, mfd. Group Industries


ANY firearm over 50 years of age has been decreed by law as having C&R status. However, the BATF has also decided that it does indeed have to be substantially unmodified. I am not sure what modifications they allow and which are not allowed.

But they also by declaration have determined many modified firearms of that vintage also meet the requirements, and many that are far less then 50 years old.

They have an incomplete list on their web site. Sometimes they decide a single firearm with a specific SN is C+R.

EOD Guy
June 15, 2007, 12:52 PM
Senior Member
I believe the restrictions on modification apply only to curios, but the BATFE has made exceptions (e.g., Yugoslavian m1959/66 in California). Any firearm over 50 years old is a relic, regardless of condition.

~G. Fink

I don't believe there is any such thing as a "curio" in either the law or the regulation. The same thing applies to the term "relic." The only references are to "curios or relics."

Gordon Fink
June 15, 2007, 01:55 PM
Curios are the listed firearms, which are sometimes less than 50 years old. Relics are firearms over 50 years old. If a firearm has not been listed, how can one determine if it has or has not been modified without doing a mountain of research?

Being 50+ years old is the default definition. I see sporterized military rifles and even bare receivers transferred as C&R firearms all the time.

~G. Fink

eastwood44mag
June 15, 2007, 03:02 PM
So, can anyone explain this to me:

If you can find a Romanian Tokarev that's over 50 years old and hasn't been modified, why is it not C&R eligible?

Lone_Gunman
June 15, 2007, 03:02 PM
Some modifications to a C&R gun are OK and it will still be considered a C&R by the ATF. The problem is that it is not real well defined what constitutes enough of a change to make the ATF reconsider.

tulsamal
June 15, 2007, 03:09 PM
I see sporterized military rifles and even bare receivers transferred as C&R firearms all the time.

I've seen the same thing. I've seen places selling Garand and 1903 receivers and saying they were C&R.

They were still wrong!

I always avoid those because I would really hate to put something in my book and have to look at it for years knowing full well I was in the wrong!

Gregg

tulsamal
June 15, 2007, 03:11 PM
If you can find a Romanian Tokarev that's over 50 years old and hasn't been modified, why is it not C&R eligible?

The Toks I've seen like that have had a small hole drilled behind the trigger guard for a sliding safety. No longer original; no longer C&R. Places like SOG would love to be able to sell them as C&R but even they know the rules better than that.

Only ones without the safety are C&R. If you remove the safety, you still have the drilled hole and that still seems to be "enough" of a modification.

I would like to have one myself but the safeties are worthless. Worse than worthless. If I could find one without the hole for a good price, I might buy it.

Gregg

Gordon Fink
June 15, 2007, 05:02 PM
Tulsamal, a quick review of the BATFE site produced this.

4590, “Factoring Criteria for Weapons”. Surplus military firearms classified as curios or relics must be in their original military configuration to qualify for importation.

I see that this is a restriction on importation. Is the limitation specified anywhere else?

~G. Fink

Steelcore
June 15, 2007, 05:34 PM
If it is 50 yrs old it is C&R.Modications don't change the classifications of C&R.Kind of a moot point because most gundealers don't know about the 50 yr. rule and won't sell to you on your C&R.Which is why I didn't renew mine when it expired.If you live in a border area,its good for legalizing private sales across state lines.

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