Criminals in Home Invasion Identify themselves as Local Police !


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DigitalWarrior
June 15, 2007, 10:30 AM
It is the second to last sentence that irritates me most.

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Gunman+apologizes+to+couple+after+invading+the+wrong+apartment&articleId=a5483864-8ac4-43dd-b9fb-5a8950922c3f

Gunman apologizes to couple after invading the wrong apartment

By PAT GROSSMITH
New Hampshire Union Leader Staff
Thursday, Jun. 14, 2007

MANCHESTER – A gunman, who with two other men last night forced his way into a couple's West Side apartment, later apologized to them when he realized it was the wrong residence.

"There's no question this couple was not the target," said Sgt. Maureen Tessier, community information officer.

The home invasion happened at 6:50 p.m.Wednesday at an address at Village Circle Way in Countryside Village, an apartment complex on the city's West Side.

The couple's two young daughters, ages 2 and 7, were also in the apartment when the men forced their way inside.

Police are not releasing the exact address or the couple's names given "the circumstances," said Tessier.

Authorities said the 36-year-old man answered a knock on the door and three men rushed inside.

One of them pointed a gun at his head and demanded to know the location of a certain individual who police did not identify.

The resident grabbed the intruder's gun arm and pulled it down. One of the other intruders quickly moved in and repeatedly punched him in the head and then shoved him into his living room.

His 29-year-old wife, who was in the living room, then became the focus of the gunman. Pointing the gun at her head, he again demanded to know where a certain individual could be found.

The couple told them they did not know the individual and no one by that name lived there. The men then searched the apartment.

Tessier said the police report does not say where the children were in the apartment or if they witnessed the gun being pointed at their parents' heads.

After the search, the gunman offered his apology and the trio left empty-handed through the front door.

The gunman is described as a short, black man, 30 years of age, wearing a gray sweater and white and red ball cap.

He had a glove on his right hand and spoke as if he had something caught in his throat. Tessier said the man would start to speak, then stop, and then start to speak again.

The second man is described as a 24-year-old black man, wearing a black hoodie and black jeans. The third intruder is a Hispanic man with braided hair wearing dark-colored pants and shirt.

In March, another couple was victimized by two men -- one armed with a gun, the other a flashlight -- who forced their way into their Park View Hills apartment at 377 Huse Road.

The intruders, like those in last night's incident, had the wrong residence but still robbed the man of his wallet and a gold chain around his neck. The robbers claimed to be Manchester police officers in that incident.

Anyone with information concerning the home invasion is asked to call Manchester police at 668-8711.

So what the hell do I do when someone starts banging on my door saying that they are an officer of the law. I do not want to shoot a good guy, but I do not want to be shot by a bad guy either.

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robert garner
June 15, 2007, 10:41 AM
If they are kicking in your door, they are not police, or this is not America,

Sindawe
June 15, 2007, 10:50 AM
As I've said before on these forums, door-kickers will be considered hostile boarders and dealt with as such no matter who they claim to be.

Elza
June 15, 2007, 11:04 AM
Lets see….. You shoot the intruders. If they are not LEO’s all is OK. If they are LEO’s you die in a hail of return fire or end up with a needle in your arm.

You do not shoot the intruders. If they are not LEO’s you get robbed and quite possibly dead. If they are LEO’s you don’t get robbed but may or may not end up dead.

Don’t we have a hell of a choice????!!!!

jselvy
June 15, 2007, 11:09 AM
I can't tell the difference between the Law and the Criminals anymore.

Jefferson

Elza
June 15, 2007, 11:36 AM
jselvy: I can't tell the difference between the Law and the Criminals anymore.Ain't that the truth!

AF_INT1N0
June 15, 2007, 11:43 AM
I can't tell the difference between the Law and the Criminals anymore.

That's because at 3am when someone is kicking down your door, there is no difference.

DogBonz
June 15, 2007, 11:59 AM
Think about it. We all have it in our minds that if we hear “POLICE” to not fire… Or at least hesitate. What if criminals start wearing (not that they haven’t in the past) uniforms or those vests with the “POLICE” billboard on them. The only thing that you can do is lock/ barricade your self in a room and call 911 to verify if they are cops or not.

Think about it. If you don’t shoot, or hesitate, and they are not LEO’s you are in for a bad day, or dead. If they are LEO’s (serving a warrant at the wrong address) and you do shoot you will probably be killed, in not your life as you know it will be over anyway. Look at how hard it can be for someone who justifiably kills some scumbag who broke into their home and tried to do harm to them of their family. Now think about if that dead person was not some scumbag, but a cop who had the wrong address and was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Justified or not, you are in the legal fight of your life and will probably spend every dime that you have in the process. It would not be pretty.

LawBot5000
June 15, 2007, 01:11 PM
If they don't have the courtesy to knock, I won't have the courtesy to warn them of incoming fire.

ArmedBear
June 15, 2007, 01:16 PM
Think about it. We all have it in our minds that if we hear “POLICE” to not fire… Or at least hesitate. What if criminals start wearing (not that they haven’t in the past) uniforms or those vests with the “POLICE” billboard on them. The only thing that you can do is lock/ barricade your self in a room and call 911 to verify if they are cops or not.

Actually, it seems that you're pretty safe: if they actually SAY "Police", they're burglars.

If they just bust down your door, it's probably really the cops, who got a no-knock warrant for the wrong address, based an anonymous tip from a convicted felon, who said that someone who once played poker with your neighbor's ex-girlfriend was smoking a joint when he saw her last Saturday at the Hell's Angels clubhouse.:p

TallPine
June 15, 2007, 05:37 PM
We don't open the door to anyone that we don't know. Sometimes I will step out a door on the opposite side of the house and come around the corner to see who it is and what they want. A couple times I have had to apologize to folks that we didn't recognize at first, but they have understood. The last time we had the shades pulled most of the way down over the patio door because of the morning sun, and all we could see was jeans and shoes.

If it is a local sheriff's deputy (or the sheriff himself), it will be obvious by their vehicles and uniforms. Though they would have no reason to come here unless I had called them.

Fletchette
June 15, 2007, 06:43 PM
Just because they have a badge does not mean they cannot be a criminal. Police officers do not have "extra" rights, they have extra powers and must use them correctly to enforce the law. If they use them incorrectly, they are criminals, regardless of the fact that they have a badge.

Example: if a bonafide cop tries to rape a woman (and yes, this does happen) is he not a criminal merely because he has a badge? Nope, he is a criminal. Self defense is warranted. If the police officer dies becasue the woman defends herself, she is not guilty of any crime.

Jeff White
June 15, 2007, 07:01 PM
I love all the heros on the internet who are so technically and tactically proficient that they can awaken from a sound sleep, arm themselves and and actually get into a gunfight with a SWAT team who has planned the action in advance, brought the proper tools to quickly breach the doors, have brought long guns and level IV body armor to the fight and have trained to get in fast and secure any residents.

Let's face it, unless the SWAT team is totally inept, your first conscious thoughts are going to be wondering why it's so bright in your bedroom as you're blinking in the 6 or 9 volt light attached to an M4 or MP5......

If you don't engage in criminal activity or associate with those who do, your chances of being the victim of a mistaken police raid are somewhat less then your chances of being struck by a meteorite.

Going for a weapon or even something that could be mistaken for a weapon in those circumstances guarantees you will be shot many times and most likely killed.

Your only hope of having enough time to react is to fortify your home to the point where it's not easily entered by standard methods which could include explosives.

SWAT teams train for all kinds of different scenarios. Thinking that you're going to face the choice of grabbing a gun and fighting and maybe shooting a police officer is just some internet fantasy. Grab for a gun and you will be shot, most likely before you can ever point it at an officer.

This goes the same for any crew of home invaders who actually train. They are going to hit you when you are deep in rem sleep and it will be over with before you shake the cobwebs out of your head.

You guys would be better advised to look at motion detectors, alarms, steel doors, lexan windows in steel frames and other physical security measures to defend yourself from either threat. The idea that you're going to be seated in your living room watching TV or sleeping in your bed when the door comes down and you're going to react in time to shoot someone is crazy.

Leave the fantasy about shooting it out with home invaders to novelists and script writers and spend your time thinking of things that will actually give you time to react and decide if you're the victim of a mistaken police raid or a home invasion robbery.

Jeff

pacodelahoya
June 15, 2007, 07:51 PM
I love all the heros on the internet who are so technically and tactically proficient that they can awaken from a sound sleep, arm themselves and and actually get into a gunfight with a SWAT team


Jeff White, Why the citizen bashing???


That knife cuts both ways don't it???


That old lady in Atlanta got a shot off didn't she??
That guy in New jersey killed one of cops when they kicked in his door right??


Don't think a badge and TRAINING makes you invincible.

You'd(third person not personal) never make it past my attack chihuahuas without alerting me.




Did you swear to uphold the Constitution when you joined the police??

Do you believe that no knock warrants violate the constitution??
Do you believe that shall not be infringed means that "sensible guns laws" are ok?

Do you enforce/endorse the above type of activities?


I'd really like to know exactly where you stand.

Just because someone says that they are going to shoot at a person breaking into thier home, all of a sudden they are internet commandos. Another question Mr. White. What would you do if someone kicked in your door at zero dark thirty? Play twenty questions?

nemoaz
June 15, 2007, 07:54 PM
I love all the heros on the internet who are so technically and tactically proficient that they can awaken from a sound sleep, arm themselves and and actually get into a gunfight with a SWAT team who has planned the action in advance, brought the proper tools to quickly breach the doors, have brought long guns and level IV body armor to the fight and have trained to get in fast and secure any residents.

All you have to do is read Guns and Ammo for two years and send a small donation to Pon Raul. Then, you are a true gun rag commando....

Lew
June 15, 2007, 08:43 PM
Okay, so I've got a motion detectors and a reinforced doors. I'm awake from the lights. And I hear the door being bashed in. After five hits with the ram it finally caves. By this time, I'm up holding a weapon. What do I do, Jeff? (trying not to be too snarky here, bro. ;))

Cheers.

Jeff White
June 15, 2007, 08:49 PM
pacodelahoya,
Jeff White, Why the citizen bashing???

I'm not citizen bashing. I'm just trying to bring a little reality to this thread. You might note that I said this: This goes the same for any crew of home invaders who actually train. They are going to hit you when you are deep in rem sleep and it will be over with before you shake the cobwebs out of your head.. The idea that you can instantly awaken from a sound sleep or jump up from condition white while you are relaxing in your living room and put up a credible resistance to a group of trained, armed men determined to enter and seize you is quite ridiculous. It is in fact suicidal. Your only defense is to have good enough physical security to delay the entry long enough for you to respond. You're living a dangerous fantasy if you think that because you own a gun you're doing everything you can to defend yourself. The entire time I was in the Army Infantry we did things like guard mount and stand to because even if you are sleeping with your boots on, your LBE draped around your arm and your weapon in your hand, you still can't roll out and fight effectively without some warning.

If you want to engage in a fantasy about grabbing up your gun and gunning down home invaders, go right ahead. Just remember, it's a fantasy and don't expect the rest of the world to believe it.

Don't think a badge and TRAINING makes you invincible.

Nope that's why I plan for things to go wrong. And in this game you can do everything right and still die.

That old lady in Atlanta got a shot off didn't she??
That guy in New jersey killed one of cops when they kicked in his door right??

See my statement above....as Paul Howe says, "They may be booger eaters, but they are booger eaters with guns." I guess getting off a shot or actually killing one of your attackers is your idea of success. Personally I'd rather survive the encounter if possible.

You'd(third person not personal) never make it past my attack chihuahuas without alerting me.

Professionals have plans to deal with dogs. This includes cops and criminals.

Did you swear to uphold the Constitution when you joined the police??

Yes

Do you believe that no knock warrants violate the constitution??

No and neither does the USSC. You see, I am not a Supreme Court Justice, and as a matter of fact, neither are you unless you are really one hiding behind a screen name. The way our system works is that You and I don't decide what's constitutional and whats not. The courts do. And those court decisions have the rule of law behind them. Unless you think that there is no longer any redress through the courts, the legislative process or the ballot box, then you must work within the same constitution that you say you so respect to change those things you don't think are constitutional. Your only other option is to start the revolution. Which will it be, work within the constitution process through the courts the legislature and the polls, or take on the government? That my friend is essentially where you are.

Do you believe that shall not be infringed means that "sensible guns laws" are ok?

No and I work through the system the founding fathers put in place to change them. Don't you?

Do you enforce/endorse the above type of activities?

What activities? No knock raids? Never been on one. Never even heard of a judge around here authorizing one. Contrary to internet myth, no knock warrants in most of the US are very hard to get.

Just because someone says that they are going to shoot at a person breaking into thier home, all of a sudden they are internet commandos.

Ever been in a fight? I mean a real fight, not shoving and pushing in the schoolyard. Ever taken down a target by force? If you had any experience you'd know that sleeping with a weapon next to you isn't defending yourself, that you need to plan to delay your attackers long enough for you to get out of condition white and prepare to repel boarders.

Another question Mr. White. What would you do if someone kicked in your door at zero dark thirty?

I have a layered defensive plan that I'm not going into on an open forum as I post under my own name. Think of things like hardened glass, steel doors, long screws into double doorjambs.

Play twenty questions?

Don't have time, got to change into my uniform and go subjugate the serfs where I work :rolleyes:;)

Lew said,
Okay, so I've got a motion detectors and a reinforced doors. I'm awake from the lights. And I hear the door being bashed in. After five hits with the ram it finally caves. By this time, I'm up holding a weapon. What do I do, Jeff? (trying not to be too snarky here, bro. ;))

Call the police. They will certainly tell you if it's the police breaking down your door. BTW if your doors look hardened they may choose another entry like a window. I keep telling you guys these things are planned.

Jeff

Elza
June 15, 2007, 09:11 PM
Jeff White: I love all the heros on the internet who are so technically and tactically proficient that they can awaken from a sound sleep, arm themselves and and actually get into a gunfight with a SWAT team who has planned the action in advance, brought the proper tools to quickly breach the doors, have brought long guns and level IV body armor to the fight and have trained to get in fast and secure any residents. Sort of like the way we feel about smart-assed cops telling us “how it is” because of their “I have a badge so I’ll do anything I want” attitudes?
Jeff White: Let's face it, unless the SWAT team is totally inept, your first conscious thoughts are going to be wondering why it's so bright in your bedroom as you're blinking in the 6 or 9 volt light attached to an M4 or MP5...... You are welcome to try my place anytime you want. I’ll be happy to IM my address to you.
Jeff White: If you don't engage in criminal activity or associate with those who do, your chances of being the victim of a mistaken police raid are somewhat less then your chances of being struck by a meteorite. I do not engage in illegal activities. The cops don’t like competition.
Jeff White: Going for a weapon or even something that could be mistaken for a weapon in those circumstances guarantees you will be shot many times and most likely killed. Isn’t that what cops do best?
Jeff White: Your only hope of having enough time to react is to fortify your home to the point where it's not easily entered by standard methods which could include explosives. You forgot your APC’s, tanks, and black helicopters.
Jeff White: SWAT teams train for all kinds of different scenarios. Thinking that you're going to face the choice of grabbing a gun and fighting and maybe shooting a police officer is just some internet fantasy. Grab for a gun and you will be shot, most likely before you can ever point it at an officer. You are the worst one on this board to criticize anyone that talks of shooting an intruder. Yet, here you are telling us about how you or your badge toting buddies will kill people. Pot? Kettle?
Jeff White: This goes the same for any crew of home invaders who actually train. They are going to hit you when you are deep in rem sleep and it will be over with before you shake the cobwebs out of your head. You need to go (back) to school. REM sleep is cyclic. Are they/you going to stand there and watch my eyes to determine that I am in REM mode before you start shooting?
Jeff White: Leave the fantasy about shooting it out with home invaders to novelists and script writers and spend your time thinking of things that will actually give you time to react and decide if you're the <B>victim of a mistaken police raid</B> or a home invasion robbery.But you compared this to being struck by a meteorite. It just doesn’t happen. Besides, we’re just going to get killed anyway, right?

budney
June 15, 2007, 09:22 PM
If you don't engage in criminal activity or associate with those who do, your chances of being the victim of a mistaken police raid are somewhat less then your chances of being struck by a meteorite.

True. But that's cold comfort to the ones it happens to--several every year.


You guys would be better advised to look at motion detectors, alarms, steel doors, lexan windows in steel frames and other physical security measures to defend yourself from either threat. The idea that you're going to be seated in your living room watching TV or sleeping in your bed when the door comes down and you're going to react in time to shoot someone is crazy.

+10

Still researching that for my own home. Hard to do cost-effectively: with seven doors and about 30 windows, hardening could easily cost as much as the house. The cheapest place to start seems to be door jamb armor (http://gifthat.com/jumpto?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.djarmor.com%2FProducts). Then there's the bulletproof window film (http://gifthat.com/jumpto?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.securityprousa.com%2Fsasefi.html) or go whole hog with bulletproof windows and doors (http://www.usbulletproofing.com/). Naturally, the locks would have to be Schlage Primus (http://everestprimus.schlage.com/index.asp).

The goal would be to make a SWAT team take a half hour to get in, assuming they're carrying shotguns loaded with rock-salt and battering rams. Hopefully that will result in adequate warning, and enough time to call the police station.

Ironically, if they ever conduct a commando-raid on my house and take me out, it'll be because all my hardening measures aroused their suspicion.

--Len.

Geno
June 15, 2007, 09:26 PM
:rolleyes:

First mistake: He was not armed 24/7.
Second mistake: He went to the door without his hand on the gun, or a gun-in-hand (later preferred).
Third mistake: He opened the door. Ever heard shout through the door?!
Fourth mistake: He didn't bulldose them all right back out the door to allow his wife to lock the door and call the police.

Save me the "...he lived didn't he..." retorts. As a husband/father, he had a responsibility; he failed it. Option 4 is stupid, but he put himself there by not carrying. I will never trust a BG to decide if my family will live or die.

Elza
June 15, 2007, 09:28 PM
Excuse me for going off-topic for a moment but anyone interested might try:
http://search.homesecuritystore.com/
for their home security products. I can't say that they have the best prices but they are the best I've found.

Nil
June 15, 2007, 10:01 PM
Leave the fantasy about shooting it out with home invaders to novelists and script writers and spend your time thinking of things that will actually give you time to react and decide if you're the victim of a mistaken police raid or a home invasion robbery.

Two words and an internet link: Cory Maye http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cory_Maye

obxned
June 15, 2007, 10:13 PM
Cops at the wrong address or BG's posing as cops?? Is there really any difference?

pacodelahoya
June 15, 2007, 11:25 PM
Jeff White said,

Unless you think that there is no longer any redress through the courts, the legislative process or the ballot box, then you must work within the same constitution that you say you so respect to change those things you don't think are constitutional. Your only other option is to start the revolution. Which will it be, work within the constitution process through the courts the legislature and the polls, or take on the government? That my friend is essentially where you are.




Somedays it would indeed appear so.

If you think that gun laws are unconstitutional, then I would hope you don't enforce them.
I guess getting off a shot or actually killing one of your attackers is your idea of success. Personally I'd rather survive the encounter if possible.


No, I'll just hide in my bedroom and call 911.;)


As for whether or not I have ever shot anyone, no I have'nt, nor do I want to.
As for being in fights? Dude, I was a CO for six years, everyone I dealt with was a criminal!! Broke up knife fights, broke up regular fights, fought inmates at the hospital by myself, your point is???

pacodelahoya
June 16, 2007, 12:09 AM
And for the record, I don't think I'm Billy badasterics. I'm a 44 year old guy who is just past his prime. I'm starting to get arthritis and I hurt like hell most days.

I was a landscape foreman for several years after I got out of corrections, so I am in very good shape compared to most men my age.

That has nothing to do with anything though.

I treat people just as they treat me, I am not beligerant nor am I submissive.

But... If you treat me, like it seems a lot of people in positions of authority like to treat people, then I will give them the same attitude right back, I will not roll over and show my belly just cause they have the authoritay!!

And if you are honest with yourself Jeff White, you'll admit that there are a lot of police with that very attitude. You know, the "I'm a cop and your a civilian, how dare you question my judgement, I've been trained".

You don't need to reply to this, I have a fair idea of where you are coming from, and I know that I have always made myself perfectly clear.

Just didn't want you to think that I go around looking for trouble(as I've been accused by other posters, seems like they project) or have a chip on my shoulder, I don't, even though it might seem like it. I just don't like double standards. And that is not an attack on you, I don't know you, but it does appear as if a lot of LEOs expect and receive preferential treatment from their fellow LEOs.


And armed citizens, are, part of the checks and balances built into the government.:)

nobody_special
June 16, 2007, 12:26 AM
If you don't engage in criminal activity or associate with those who do, your chances of being the victim of a mistaken police raid are somewhat less then your chances of being struck by a meteorite.

That's obviously and demonstrably false. Deaths from being struck by a meteor are virtually unheard-of. (And I'm aware of the odds argument, I'm an astronomer with a side-interest in near-earth orbit asteroids.) Mistaken no-knock police raids are uncommon but you do hear about one occuring every few weeks.

They are going to hit you when you are deep in rem sleep and it will be over with before you shake the cobwebs out of your head.

Not only is Elza correct in that REM sleep is cyclic, but further you're assuming that everyone follows a normal sleep pattern; Some people (such as myself) do not, and it may not be easy for an outside observer to determine that -- even with thermal infrared.

Furthermore, you're again demonstrably wrong that residents would be unable to respond with force, as there have been several news stories of police being shot in self-defense by citizens due to a no-knock warrant being served at the wrong address. Even a 90-year-old grandmother managed it.

I keep telling you guys these things are planned.

If they were really all that well planned, don't you think they'd double-check the address?

LawBot5000
June 16, 2007, 12:37 AM
Cliff notes of Jeff's posts:

1) fortify the entrances to your house. Get a burglar bar or whatever the proper name for them is. It's basically a strong steel bar- one end goes into a steel fitting on the door, the other end goes into a steel fitting in the concrete floor. When you try to force the door, the bar flexes but doesn't give. You can body slam it or battering ram it for 20-30 minutes before it (maybe) shakes loose. I've tried and they very hard to defeat, even with all other locks unlocked. I'm surprised that fewer people have them.

2) fortify the interior of your house. Strong lockable interior doors.

3) sleep with a loaded rifle next to your bed.

4) aim for the face, armpit and crotch, whichever happens to be exposed

budney
June 16, 2007, 12:48 AM
Nobody, your last post and Jeff's were both basically right.

1) Wrong-door raids are rare. If they were common, the people would be outraged enough to put a stop to it. Not as rare as meteor strikes, but a few dozen, a few hundred--even a few thousand people are "rare" enough that most people aren't going to worry and, for practical purposes, don't need to worry much.

2) Busting down the wrong door is evidence of poor planning, and mistakes at Waco, Ruby Ridge and other botched raids are notorious. Nevertheless, these guys are trained, equipped, wide awake, pumped up on adrenaline and caffeine, and you're in bed dreaming about chicks. In relative terms, the invaders' advantage is huge.

3) As LawBot summed up, slowing down the invaders is your best hope. If they make it into your bedroom before you reach for your gun, you're pretty much a goner. If you hear them hammering away on your reinforced door, setting off your alarms, you have time to strap on the body armor and Peltors and grab your rifle.

--Len

LawBot5000
June 16, 2007, 12:53 AM
For starters:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door_security

This is really sad, I can't find that security bar that my parents use in their apartment. Dunno if it is still made. That thing is like fort knox. Really beefy door with a really springy cylindrical bar about 4-5 feet long that slots into the floor and into the lock side of the door.

DKSuddeth
June 16, 2007, 01:05 AM
already mentioned

Elza
June 16, 2007, 01:24 AM
nobody_special: Not only is Elza correct in that REM sleep is cyclic, but further you're assuming that everyone follows a normal sleep pattern; Some people (such as myself) do not, and it may not be easy for an outside observer to determine that -- even with thermal infrared.An excellent point, nobody. I, myself, have very erratic sleep patterns. There is no telling whether I am awake or asleep or what sleep stage I might be in.

LawBot5000
June 16, 2007, 01:28 AM
I personally don't think it is asking too much for the police to:
-not serve warrants at 2 in the morning. Unless it is an emergency, you know this is an inappropriate time. This is common sense and common courtesy to your neighbors.
-not serve no-knock warrants ever. The whole point of giving you guys badges and uniforms is so that we can tell you aren't bad guys. When you start forcing doors and dressing like ninjas, it is hard to tell that you are good guys. And no, saying "police!" isn't good enough.

It is that simple. If you have a search warrant, search during the day. If you have an arrest warrant, arrest during the day. If you need to get into someone's house, knock first. These are rules so basic that any civilized person can follow them.

precisionshootist
June 16, 2007, 04:27 AM
This thread gave me a chuckle !

I keep telling you guys these things are planned.

My first thought: So well planned they often get the wrong address.

My second thought: Custer had a plan.

My third thought: ATF had a plan when they went up against the Branch Davidians.

Professionals have plans to deal with dogs. This includes cops and criminals.

Those that believe they have a plan to deal with dogs have'nt breached a door in front of 3 Fila Brasileiro's.

Jeff White
June 16, 2007, 04:33 AM
I'm really sorry to have burst anyone's fantasy about taking out a whole SWAT team or a crew of professional home invaders. I guess I spoilt it with a dose of reality before you got to the point where you were standing ankle deep in brass with the bodies of your slain foes stacked like cordwood in front of you and the girls from the Hooters down the street were huddled behind you begging you to father their children because you you just rid the city of: a) a corrupt group of rogue police officers who were running amok kicking little kittens out of their way, running little old ladies onto the curb with their speeding squad cars, shaking down the Girl Scouts for protection money during cookie season and other nefarious deeds too numerous to name here...or

b) a gang of professional criminals staright out of a Quentin Tarantino movie who were terrorizing the town by doing home invasion robberies, taunting the hapless families by raping their pets in front of them and eating all of the chocolate chip cookies in the cabinet and spilling milk all over the kitchen.

On a more serious note, these threads get pretty old. The same group of people get online and express all their frustrations with the political system and the criminal justice system by puffing out their chest and declaring for everyone with web access to see that they intend to slay the police or criminal home invaders. The problem with that is, real life doesn't work that way. It may make you all feel better, but if you were ever unfortunate enough to be in the position to do just what you say you're going to do, you are most likely going to die for your trouble.

You may grab up your gun and even get a shot or two off, you may even hit one of the home invaders. But the rest of them, be they the evil rogue SWAT team or a gang of professional criminals are going to kill you. And if it's not a rogue SWAT team and it really is a gang of professional criminals, there is a good chance they are going to kill everyone else in the house too. After all, they've already killed you, leaving witnesses might not be the best idea.

So if you are serious about how to handle a situation like that, as unlikely as it will be, it's probably smarter to talk about physical security measures and ways to communicate with the authorities.

Heck, that might even be a productive discussion. Probably not as satisfying to some of you as thumping your chest and telling everyone how you're going to kill to protect your honor, but someone who surfed in here looking for real information might learn something.

I might remind you that in most of the examples you gave of people who got a shot off at the cops to prove to me that your solution was the right one, the shooter is now deceased.

If you think that no knock raids should be banned, then I suggest you contact your elected representative and get a law passed banning them. If you think that all search warrants should be served in daylight hours, then you should get a law passed to that effect. Puffing you chest out on the internet and making noises about how you're going to go down fighting doesn't impress anyone. In fact it makes the entire gun culture look like a bunch of immature people who shouldn't have access to guns.

There is a system in place for you to change the things you don't like. It's slow, cumbersome and frustrating.

All the macho posturing on the internet is going to get you is the opposite of what you want. You might be surprised how copies of threads like this might end up in documentation to justify the puchase of more equipment to militarize the police. I bet none of you ever thought about that. You aren't scaring the authorities into believing they better back off or there will be a bloodbath. The authorities are positive they will win the bloodbath because they know that the majority of the American people aren't part of the gun culture. Yes, the majority may own guns, but those guns aren't as important to them as they are to us. Scare them enough about what the gun culture is capable of and there won't be a gun culture any longer, they will happily legislate us out of existance.

You're not among friends at the gunshow when you post things here. It's the same as putting on the news crawler of your favorite cable news network.

I'm done with this one now, you can all go back to venting your emotions by talking about killing cops.......

Jeff

DKSuddeth
June 16, 2007, 04:52 AM
Jeff, I got alot of respect for you, but this

Puffing you chest out on the internet and making noises about how you're going to go down fighting doesn't impress anyone. In fact it makes the entire gun culture look like a bunch of immature people who shouldn't have access to guns.

makes you sound like Henry Waxman.

Jeff White
June 16, 2007, 05:43 AM
DK,
It was meant to sound that way. The day will come when the likes of Henry Waxman, Diane Feinstein, Dick Durbin, Chuck Schumer or Carolyn McCarthy will read from these threads into the Congressional Record during the debate on some restrictive legislation. The news media will gladly broadcast the CSPAN coverage and Mr. and Mrs. America for who a gun is the dusty old thing that belonged to grandad and is sitting unused in the corner of the old wardrobe in the basement will decide we really are dangerous.

The chances that any legislator will look at them and think, "My God, we're really upsetting the public we need to back off before they start the revolution! is just about nil.

Jeff

DKSuddeth
June 16, 2007, 05:46 AM
The chances that any legislator will look at them and think, "My God, we're really upsetting the public we need to back off before they start the revolution! is just about nil.
and so it was in 1774, and maybe that's the best news of all.

Jeff White
June 16, 2007, 06:02 AM
In 1774 approximately 1/3 of the colonists were willing to take up arms. You will never see that happen in this country without a trigger like a major economic collapse. We're lucky to get a third of the eligible citizens of this nation to vote, do you think you're going to get them to take up arms?

We're fighting the next American revolution now. It's called the culture war. We're all in it. And if we don't fight smart, we're going to be marginalized out of existence. Coming off like spoiled children who aren't getting their way isn't a smart way to fight. Sounding like spoiled children who have guns and can hurt people is in my opinion downright counterproductive.

The internet can be a great tool. But don't think that our own words can't be used against us. They already have been.

We will never convert antis here, not in the numbers we need to, because too many of them are true believers, but if we continue to reinforce the stereotypes they use to portray us in the media, the antis will sway enough of the public into their camp to make the second amendment a quaint anachronism.

I personally want to die knowing my grandchildren are enjoying my guns.

Just something for people to think about before they start posting about killing cops and going out in a blaze of glory.

Jeff

Jeff

ubermensch
June 16, 2007, 06:09 AM
I sleep with ear plugs in and a fan going next to my head, and I am a very deep sleeper who is totally confused for the first few minutes after waking up. Home invaders and/or SWAT teams would be all over me before I knew anything was going on. Even if I did wake up I would be too freaked out to do anything, and they would probably see me holding a pistol and then promptly unload on me.

Sad but true.


It seems to me that both problems (armed gangs and SWAT raids) could be largely ameliorated by ending the "War on Drugs"--by legalizing some drugs you completely undercut the gangs and then the paramilitary police have no reason to raid anyone.

Whatever bandit problem is left could be solved by requiring the head of each household to have and be trained in the use of home defense gun, and advertising this fact. Maybe we could give people a big tax cut for attending safety classes and practicing each year. Deputize everyone.

Always err on the side of liberty.

DeltaGunner
June 16, 2007, 06:40 AM
Mr. white is quite right.............
If you never been involved in a surprise attack, in the light of day or night, your pretty much living in a fantasy of winning either way.
Right now there are 8 men squads, silently walking the streets of Bagdad, performing no knock entries..... this practice goes on night after night.
They are pretty darn successful. The U.S. body count for 5 years is pretty low.
Most succumb to chicken sh*t road side bombs.
I've seen the surprise attacks first hand. All who have gun in hand don't survive.
This forum is pretty ridiculous and should be shut down.
There exists a number of key board rangers that need to enlist and try the real world.
Gripe about this guys, and remember if your ever in the neighbor hood you can K.M.A.

DKSuddeth
June 16, 2007, 07:32 AM
so we should all stfu and be good little subjects. we're not capable of, nor should we attempt to be, self defensive. we don't need to worry about protecting our homes, that's what the police are for.

gbtw

Hardware
June 16, 2007, 08:38 AM
Taking things back closer to the High Road...

Nightime intruders to my home will be presumed hostile until proven otherwise. Likewise any formation of redcoats marching into my town.

'Nuff said.

209
June 16, 2007, 08:49 AM
New to the forum. I have lurked here for a long time, and this thread prompted me to register.

I've worked with SWAT folks.... I'm a LEO. They're very good at what they do. (Well, okay... sometimes they read the address wrong :uhoh: ) I’ve been on the receiving end of SWAT raids during training. I’ve got to say, even though I knew what was going to happen, it’s an overwhelming experience if done right. Most SWAT raids do go right. SWAT train- they train hard and they train the same tactics many times so it's almost second nature to them. A lot of them are very good at what they do. I doubt there are that many hours spent by non-SWAT folks training how to prevent such a raid.

I figure, if a police tac team ever mistakenly hits my home, and I'm there asleep, I won't even make it to my gun before they're standing in my bedroom.... unless they're noisy enough when they're setting it up and I wake up wondering what all of the vehicle movement is as I live in a very rural area and changes in the natural pattern seem to wake me. But, even if I woke up and had the time to throw on my vest, grab my guns and be waiting for them, I'm going to be losing the fight. The best I could hope for would be a stand-off. But, if they're in the house and I shoot, it's extremely likely I die. Given the bullets that would be flying, it's also likely my wife and kids, if I had any, would be exposed to a lot of lead. They may die, because most houses up this way don't exactly have interior walls that stop bullets too well.

I've had the police show up at my house three times during what I'd call a "normal" response. All mistakes- they were looking for the neighbor’s house behind mine; we share a common driveway. We don't have a town PD and the state police are our police presense and most of the troopers that work my area don't get a good overview of the area since they respond to a large area emcompassing 10 or more towns. They may not go to any one area in any of those towns more than once a year- if ever. Mistakes happen!

Two of those times, I woke up before they came to the door and I was ready and alert. But, one time, they managed to knock on my front door before I even knew they were there. I suspect if any of those three occasions were SWAT raids, I’d have been sound asleep until I heard the ram hit the door. The chances of me mounting a credible defense would be nil. Since I carry a handgun almost constantly, I have one fairly readily available. My long guns are in a safe. I’d probably not get to one of those in the short time I had.

Like most [smart] LEOs, I “war game” various scenarios on a regular basis which is something I started doing during my military years. It’s a good way to formulate a plan and the repetition helps develop a mind-set. I have yet to come up with a great plan for dealing with a home invasion. There are too many variables. I’m not saying anyone shouldn’t attempt to plan their actions in a home invasion, since there are things you should plan for, but it's hard to cover all of the facets that are involved.

But given my experiences, I’d have to say you’re way behind the power curve if you think you’re ready to repel all boarders when it comes to stopping a police tac team.

Art Eatman
June 16, 2007, 09:05 AM
DK, it's not a matter of shutting up. Jeff's offering some realism about the real world and The Way It Is.

There may well be that occasional person who can waken and instantaneously make shoot/no-shoot decisions, but they're as common as Jeff's meteorites. :) Unless you sleep with your weapon in your hand--and that's no guarantee, think "Tueller Drill" and consider time and reaction time.

Unless your residence is hardened and unless you have an alarm system, the idea that you offer any defensive threat to halfway-competent home invaders is indeed Keyboard Kommando-itis.

Anybody here remember the millionaire in California whose home was raided due to phony info to the law, a lie about him being a marijuana smuggler? He'd happened to wake up, get a drink of water, and heard noises. He got his handgun and was prepared to resist whoever came into his house.

He got shot and killed.

The only security is gonna take a lot of work by a lot of people:

1. Lobby Congress to end the War on Drugs as we now have it.

2. Lobby local governments to end the use of SWAT teams on break-doors entry for arrests.

3. Don't watch TV shows which glorify SWAT and thereby give Bad Guys ideas.

Outside of the political process, I see no way to accomplish anything useful.

Art

Geno
June 16, 2007, 09:39 AM
I said it before, and i will say it again.

If you do not like your local police department's service, fire them! We just did exactly that. We gave them 2 weeks notice as required by the previous contract and sent them packing. Why? Simple, they collectively, have been the laziest, most unethical excuse for wanna-be-cops that the local people have ever seen.

Lest some decide to "flame" me as anti-cop, I will save you the time. The city Board voted unanimously, based on extensive community feedback. I was not a sole discontented citizen, or even just a handful. Furthermore, they had fair notice.

At a certain time, you have to say "Enough"! We said enough to the county police and fired them! We have hired our own city police department. Furthermore, we will have a Police Oversight Board that is to serve to "remind the police that they work for the people!"

Oh, and since we're talking about TV shows, what is the name of the TV program that had the rouge cop who beats the urine and feces out of people, even murders people? Seriously, I don't recall because I refuse to ever watch it again. It GLORIFIES not only police abuse, it glorifies even police murder! What the Hades is THAT doing on TV?! Get rid of crooked-cop-show while you're out getting rid of the shows that encourage perps.

So you see, Art is right! Take your political stand! We did!

Edited to add: I just may seek a seat on that oversight board.

Doc2005

budney
June 16, 2007, 10:37 AM
DK, far as I can tell Jeff is opposing your tactics, not your principles.

Big talk about shooting cops (1) encourages them to militarize further, (2) reduces the effectiveness of our message to undecideds, (3) can be used by gun-grabbers to further their agenda, (4) is basically fantasy, and (5) if put into practice, will surely get you killed.

Self-defense is one thing; taking on the entire US armed forces is quite another. Armed insurrection is a last resort. As Jeff says, the political process is the first resort. I've mostly given up on politics, but I'm hardly ready for American Revolution II yet.

--Len.

cracked butt
June 16, 2007, 10:54 AM
I wonder how many of the armchair comandos who are doubting Mr White's stance spend as many hours in hard training repelling boarders as the SWAT team spends in hard training to do the opposite?:scrutiny:


"Authorities said the 36-year-old man answered a knock on the door and three men rushed inside."

"The gunman is described as a short, black man, 30 years of age, wearing a gray sweater and white and red ball cap."

"The second man is described as a 24-year-old black man, wearing a black hoodie and black jeans. The third intruder is a Hispanic man with braided hair wearing dark-colored pants and shirt."

The way I read this is the man more than likely opened the door to a group that could on the surface appear to be gangbangers. Bad strategy and bad tactics on the part of the residence all around.
I'm apparantly missing the part that other people are reading where there were men wearing police uniforms or who showed Police ID or who used a battering ram or even flashbangs to enter the residence.:scrutiny:

Chris Rhines
June 16, 2007, 11:04 AM
Unless your residence is hardened and unless you have an alarm system,... That should be in big flashing letters. Hardening your residence is the first thing you should be thinking about if you're worried about home invasions/dynamic entries (and I differ with Jeff here, in that I think these are reasonable things to be worried about.)

- Chris

TallPine
June 16, 2007, 11:06 AM
I thought the original post was about people knocking on your door and then forcing their way in ...????????????????

:rolleyes:


If they were really all that well planned, don't you think they'd double-check the address?
Now that was really good! OW! :D


Oh yeah ... and I'm still trying to figure out how a dozen guys are going to get up my steep narrow stairs all at the same time without making a lot of noise ??????

craig
June 16, 2007, 11:29 AM
jeff white.. your posts come across as a little elitist to me. maybe that's just me.

i hear "swat trains hard, fights hard and really plan ahead" so you civilians stand no chance.

well, if we ever have a natural disaster down here, please stay home. i don't want another new orleans down here, though those officers did look real macho beating that old lady down.

Elza
June 16, 2007, 12:11 PM
Do I think I would take out a SWAT team? No. I never suggested such a thing. (Well, actually I could. However it is highly impractical and far more illegal. If the cops didn’t get me the state certainly would.) I’ve only said that cops acting in such a manner are basically thugs hiding behind their badges and SWAT entries are proof of this. (If the LEO’s don’t like my opinion T.S. I couldn’t care less.) It puts us serfs in a position of not knowing which group of criminals is at the door. As such, I would tend to shoot at any intruder. Would this get me killed by the SWAT thugs? Not much doubt. I stay away from the world of fantasy. If you wish to try to shift the spotlight away by placing me in your ‘fantasy world’ then knock yourself out.

On the other hand, the LEO’s are quick to defend their brother cops regardless of what they do. Stomping the family cat in front of the children, slapping a pregnant woman around, all of the “brave acts” perpetrated by cops in the name of “law and order”.

Before slamming the folks here about their thoughts and concerns perhaps you should spend some time looking at the reasons for these concerns. But, that would require a hard look at the actions of LEO’s. We can’t have that! It ‘might’ put the LEO community in a bad light.

I’ll end with one question. The following statement was made:Professionals have plans to deal with dogs. This includes cops and criminals.My dogs will have me wide awake before you get to the house much less in it. They sleep inside. Just how, pray tell, are you going to ‘deal’ with my dogs? Shoot through the walls with a Ma Duce on your APC?

pacodelahoya
June 16, 2007, 02:28 PM
Deltagunner said

If you never been involved in a surprise attack, in the light of day or night, your pretty much living in a fantasy of winning either way.


Who said anything about winning, I just want some trigger time too!:rolleyes:

There exists a number of key board rangers that need to enlist and try the real world.


Too old now, did 8 years many moons ago, can I still play?:D

you can K.M.A.

A very well thought out and articulated post, let me guess, you are leo also?;)

Elza
June 16, 2007, 03:05 PM
DeltaGunner: This forum is pretty ridiculous and should be shut down. Why? Just because there are those that disagreed with you?
DeltaGunner: There exists a number of key board rangers that need to enlist and try the real world. Sorry but I, too, am over the hill. Viet Nam vet. I’m just a bit senior to be running around in the jungle (or sand dunes as the case may be.)
DeltaGunner: Gripe about this guys, and remember if your ever in the neighbor hood you can K.M.A. I think that pacodelahoya said it all regarding this one.

Sindawe
June 16, 2007, 03:08 PM
This forum is pretty ridiculous and should be shut down.If you don't like the forum, you don't have to participate or even read the threads you find "ridiculous".

Elza's comments sum up my views in a much more verbose fashion that I usually use. If door kickers are criminal bad guys, I may succeed in driving them off. Thats a win for me. If door kickers are LEO buffoons at the wrong address, I'll 'prolly not survive the encounter. But just taking one of said buffoons with me counts as an even score in my book.

We are all dead men & women in the end. The only question is how we go out. I choose to go down fighting, rather than groveling on the floor.

As I've said in the past. If LEOs think they have good cause to search my home. Be civil, knock and present the warrant and we can fight the issue out in a court of law. Act like thugs and you'll be treated like thugs.

thexrayboy
June 16, 2007, 09:06 PM
Per Jeff White

If you don't engage in criminal activity or associate with those who do, your chances of being the victim of a mistaken police raid are somewhat less then your chances of being struck by a meteorite.



Per the NYPD civilian complaint board....in 2006 in NYC there was more than 15 raids on homes that were mistaken addresses. Per the Cato research group since the late 1980s more than 40 people have died in raids by police on the wrong home and more than a thousand identified instances of police raiding the wrong home have been identified on a national scale.

Since 1990 no verifiable instance of a person being struck by a meteorite has occurred. There is one noted instance in 1954 of a person being struck by a meteor that had ricocheted off of something and one unverified claim in 2004 in England of a person being struck. To date no verified actual direct hits have been recorded.

The chances of an honest citizen being the victim of a mistaken police search is small....but it is vastly larger now than it was 20 years ago. In two more decades it may become a virtual certainty. A discussion of how to deal with this unlikely but ever increasing probability is not fantasy. However realistic preparations should be more along the lines of dull boring and expensive unseen preparation, not Ramboesque fantasy about winning a shootout with a gang of armed invaders at O dark thirty.

Having said that the evidence is clear. Raids by LEO on innocents is an increasing possibility in the JBT driven mindset currently ruling government. Citizens can and have successfully defended themselves against such illegal activity. However we should be taking a page from the Vegas odds makers and stacking the deck in our favor. That would mean making your domecile
much harder to gain entry into without giving evidence of that preparation to those surveilling it from the outside while planning a midnite visit.

cpileri
June 16, 2007, 11:09 PM
I know a number of very decent guys who are "LEO's". What I wonder is if they dont think much about the chances of and consequences of a wrong-address-dynamic-entry? Sort of like some bad doctors don't think a small percentages of wrong-site-surgeries is a big deal? (pls dont start on that topic in this thread!)

But here's my thinking: maybe its an indoctrination kind of thing. Consider how everyone refers to themselves- as a "Law Enforcement Officer". That term is bothersome precisely because it describes their self-image.

Consider the fellow who is employed as a 'Peace Officer': he exists to keep the peace. Peace is a noble cause, and is what most of us want deep down inside. he uses his skills and his badge to keep the peace and that is why the Peace Officer earns the respect of his community.

Then consider the fellow who defines his job as 'Police': he keeps an eye on things, watches out for law-breakers. In essence, he keeps order. Order is pretty peaceful, so the gradual focus away from peace and toward 'policing' was tolerated by the populace and accepted by the well-intentioned folks applying for the job.

OK, so now we have the guys who describe themselves as Law Enforcement Officers: a very important line is crossed here. Now, the officers exist to enforce the law however it is written. It makes no stipulation as to wether or not the law is just, or right, or erodes personal freedoms, or has the potential to damage the innocent, or gives special privileges to the LEO's; they just enforce it. I say it is a dangerous mindset to describe yourself using this term. it is the equivalent of saying, "the law allows me to raid the home of the innocent a certain percentage of the time and if I kill the innocent i was acting in the line of duty according to policy and therefore i will do it."
"I was just enforcing the law"
'i was just doing my job."
"I was just following orders."
Dangerous.

What's left?
Well, i am sure a new less-evil-sounding term for Jack Booted Thug, or "Sicilian Heavy", or "some Muscle", or something new and creative to describe a guy who is paid by the gov't to deliberately be brutal to the citizens- legally- will be invented when and if that time comes.
This next line is moving more toward 'pre-emptive violence': beat up, maybe but rarely kill, a few citizens for nothing much other than to keep the rest in line.

What's next?
The only things left are after the above are governemnt paid assassins/hit-men, death squads, etc. Just begin an outright campaign of terror against the citizenry to keep them wherever you want them- and too afraid to even say anything about it. Remember, everything Hitler did was LEGAL.

Just my thoughts, though I think about my role in it everyday.
C-

Elza
June 16, 2007, 11:29 PM
cpileri: The only things left are after the above are government paid assassins/hit-men, death squads, etc. Just begin an outright campaign of terror against the citizenry to keep them wherever you want them- and too afraid to even say anything about it. Remember, everything Hitler did was LEGAL.

A most interesting and enlightening dissertation. And close enough to home to make it rather scary.

Just remember one of the primary reasons Hitler was able to accomplish this: he first disarmed the citizens!

ETCss Phil McCrackin
June 16, 2007, 11:34 PM
To start with, I figure that if an unexpected, (and ultimately unjust) raid takes place, you have to assume that it's bad guys, (since you know better than most the legality of your lifestyle) and therefore, engage them (with an extra large helping of luck!) like criminals. If they're cops in the wrong and they, or you, or both die in the process then it is the epitome of a senseless tragedy.

However, I must part with my internet brethren as far as believing in the usefulness of the "no-knock" SWAT warrant. This is based on:

A. The fact that "no-knocks" are pretty hard to get and require a fair amount of justification in most areas.

B. As ugly as they are, the fact is, they save lives. Both the lives of the officers and the criminals being arrested. Those of you who hate the idea of SWAT and the "no-knock", what would you have John law do? Roll up to the home of a known violent offender, or the door of a meth lab with a black and white and a smile... "Hello Mr. Cracka Killa, I'm Officer John Q. Law of the Nowhere Police Dept. Would you please come outside so I can arrest you? Please?"

Do "no-knocks" and SWAT teams get overused by departments trying to justify their budgets? Yes. Is it a crying shame that there is a need for them at all? Yes. Are they an unholy symbol of the apocalypse and a tool of the GS-13 devil? I would say, not so much...:o

thekomet
June 17, 2007, 12:47 AM
I do not understand the vitriol that Jeff used in his replies. My sense of the intent of the other posters is that all things being equal, a person or persons breaking into your home should be considered to have criminal intent until proven otherwise, especially siince the the police do not seem to make these mistakes very often. I certainly appreciate how the police put their lives on the line to protect us, and I have several friends who are police officers.

To my way of thinking there are some important questions unanswered:

1. Is it reasonable to assume someone breaking down your door is a bad guy, all things being equal? It seems time is of the essence here and a call to the police could mean the difference between my family and I surviving.

2. Since the police seem to rarely make mistakes in serving no-knock warrents, is it more likely that this scenario will involve bad guys than good guys?

3. Specifically fo Jeff or his supporters, is there ever a time where the average civilian could defend his home against an invader with training/planning? That the odds are stacked against you is not a reason give up when the stakes are so high.

My purpose for posting this is to learn, not antagonize. Over the past several months I have read these forums regularly and have been impressed by the thoughtfulness and civility in the great majority of the posts.

larry_minn
June 17, 2007, 02:31 AM
Doc2005 are you in MN? There was a small town not that terribly far from me that did a similar thing. Warned the Police Cheif/indians and then "released" them. Lock/stock and barrel. I never had any (real) trouble with them but met enough people who did. The older folks didn't dare drive in town due to harassment. :( :( I got to know one of the Officers (slightly) and mentioned it to him. Basicly I suggested that there were a lot of people that had parents in town who wouldn't be happy about their parents being treated that way.
IMO all one can assume (if you try to obey the law) is anyone attacking you is a threat. Use the advantages you have to increase your chance of survival. Motion sensors/alarms/ dogs/ solid doors/deadbolts/interior doors/locked/stairs/etc.

DeltaGunner
June 17, 2007, 05:07 AM
May Be:
1.leo
2. 8 Year Special Op's Usmc Vet
3. Undercover Atf Or Congressional Spy, Collecting In-fo On What Kind Of Whack Jobs Will Provide Gun Owner Mind Set To Support The Next Weapons Ban......
You Choose

DKSuddeth
June 17, 2007, 07:40 AM
let there be no misunderstanding...

In the event of either a criminal home invasion or a SWAT raid on my home, I don't expect to be the last man standing in pile of ejected brass with buckets of blood and blue paint on my face. I fully expect that in either incident, I will end up dead, but I seriously hope to take at least one, and hopefully more, with me.

The reasoning behind this is that the LEO organizations will not change anything at all no matter the cost, unless they end up killing a few more elderly black ladies because it's apparent nobody gives a damn about white families or kids of any color. It's also very apparent that the courts have no interest in holding LEO agencies or the city governments accountable for any actions or results in wrong raids or deaths resulting from them. Even the highly vaunted USSC has completely and utterly disjoined itself from any responsibility it had to the people and has gone to great lengths to support government actions whether right or wrong. The politicians will only give lip service insofar as it will get the heat off of their backs but I've not seen any but the rarest LOCAL (read that as pop. centers less than 10,000) actions to hold LEO agencies accountable, which only result in firings because the courts have already set precedent on no accountability, legally or financially.

Hundreds more will die, either by the hands of criminals pretending to be police, or by the police themselves, nothing will change unless it's made too dangerous for them to risk it. JMHO anyway.

DigitalWarrior
June 17, 2007, 09:43 AM
Oh for Goodness sake people.

I am not interesting in contributing to actions that result in the death of my family.

I want to find out what the heck I should do if I hear a bump in the night quickly followed by a crack and the door coming in.
http://www.a-human-right.com/twoways_s.jpg

I do nothing illegal, but I do run a tor server. This might be mistaken for illegal activity by some agencies. I also have a bunch of computer equipment and give to a lot of charities, so someone might also mistake me for a rich guy too.

It sounds to me (and Law Enforcement Officers especially, please correct me if I am wrong), no matter what is said (police, we gonna getchu sukka, etc.) , if I have time to react, it is probably not a team of police. If I awake to find myself wondering what all of these people with guns are doing in my bedroom, then they are probably cops.

So I should try to react and kill the intruders and if I can manage an effective defense, they are probably bad guys. If I haven't pulled the rifle off the wall and they knock me down and are kneeling on my spine, then they are the good guys.

Do I get it?

DW

--Edited to add:
Yes I do plan on upgrading my home security system and replacing my interior bedroom door with an exterior door and doing the frames in metal.

robert garner
June 17, 2007, 09:50 AM
I am proud of my fellow THR members who have kept this thread informative,civil and sane.

I am non-plussed with the recurring theme of 'resistance is futile' you will die!
Thermopolae! Warsaw Ghetto! Can you not see that ? Those that were there most certainly did!


Obviously I would interpose for Wife and Family. Not so apparent is why I would
do the same for the police, in whom I haven't invested thirty years of my life. Its called a social contract,epitomized by the Constitution, He has sworn an Oath to protect it, given a Shield,and takes the pay of the Govt (people),for myself it is merely a Duty,to deliver to the next generation that which the previous has left us.
Merely a Duty, were it NOT for this Duty, perhaps I could embrace the 'resistance is Futile" mindset,I could sell my weapons,invest in a garbage can full of reefer, grow my hair and relax, I would only have to P my belly once , Somehow though; all those people, from Concord to Baghdad, demand more from me.
robert

Travis McGee
June 17, 2007, 10:09 AM
http://matthewbracken.web.aplus.net/bookcover.jpg

The debate on this thread is very much the theme of my first novel: what to do about an out of control SWAT team mentality run amuck? There are several no-knock SWAT raids in the book, and in only one does the home owner basically wipe out the entry team, and that is only because he has been tipped off in advance by a LE insider, and is waiting in ambush. He has several improvised explosive charges prepared, and even so, he doesn't survive the encounter.

coyote_jr
June 17, 2007, 10:15 AM
What a Low Road convo

pacodelahoya
June 17, 2007, 12:34 PM
What a Low Road convo

I agree, it's bad indeed when you have to contemplate whether or not to shoot someone kicking in your door at 4:30 in the morning because you don't know if they are criminals or government agents that have forsaken thier oath to uphold the Constitution..:(

jselvy
June 17, 2007, 12:49 PM
Jeff White,

Do you consider living in a bad neighborhood to be engaging in criminal activity.
Because if that's the case then your assessment is absolutely factual as the Police rarely raid good neighborhoods. If not then your argument is specious.

Jefferson

DigitalWarrior
June 17, 2007, 01:53 PM
Gentlemen, I do not think this is a low road conversation (though I do believe that some people have taken it there). I guess my big problem is that it might have been better suited for strategies and tactics.

The problem I saw was that criminals identified themselves as police. So now when someone identifies themselves as police, what is the best course of action. It seems to me that I just have to put my trust in God and hope for the best.

DW

cracked butt
June 17, 2007, 02:26 PM
The problem I saw was that criminals identified themselves as police. So now when someone identifies themselves as police, what is the best course of action.

Part of it is just using common sense.
- If the people at the door identify themselves as police, they are in uniform, and a cruiser is visible in the street, Occams Razor says they are police.
- If the people identifying themselves as police have hooded sweatshirts on, jungle pants that they have to keep one hand on to hold up, and a 1965 chevy with 24 in rims on it is parked in front of your house, don't open the damn door.
-If you have any questions whatsoever, don't open the door.


I still don't know how this thread degenerated into being about shooting police officers over no-knock warrants. The original article clearly said "the man answered the door," I don't know what that means in other parts of the country, but in every case that I've heard the words "answer the door" it means the person opened the door a crack and said "hello" or even placed a foot outside the door.

I have a friend who "answered the door" once for someone asking for his room mate. It turned out that 4 of the knockers friends were hiding in the hallway of the apartment building and rushed the door as soon as it was unlatched. My friend got roughed up a bit and they perps took whatever they could get their hands on in a minutes time.

brerrabbit
June 17, 2007, 02:28 PM
I agree

Considering many of the posts have the gist of " If you aint doing nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about".

Since I am not doing anything wrong, I would consider anyone busting into my home in the middle of the night after getting past my dogs not to be LEO whether or not they scream it as they are busting down the door, nor how they are dressed.

After all, if an LEO wants to serve a warrant for anything he will come in the daylight, identify himself, provide the warrant for perusal etc after which I will be the most polite courteous person that man will see that day.

RangerHAAF
June 17, 2007, 03:03 PM
I consider my home my castle and any intruders who who enter it unbidden will be fired upon. There are no mitigating or exigent circumstances to consider. An intruder who crosses my home threshold is there to do me or my family harm.

As for warrants, if the criminal subject is important enough the cops will follow proper procedure and get one. Otherwise you're going to get more citizen/cop shootouts like what happened in Atlanta; which as a result of drug warrant requests by the APD have gone down to zero and two cops are going to jail and one is awaiting trial, not to mention the multimillion dollar lawsuit that the city will be paying out.

thexrayboy
June 17, 2007, 05:29 PM
Gentlemen, I do not think this is a low road conversation (though I do believe that some people have taken it there). I guess my big problem is that it might have been better suited for strategies and tactics.


Feel free to discuss this topic in strategies n tactics. Threads about this topic get locked in that area as soon as the resident mod sees them. Contrary to some this issue is not fantasy, it is a real possibility that has evolved from a rare and random fluke into a regular occurence. If the trend continues it won't be many years before everyone is either a victim of a mistaken raid or knows someone who was. The relevant question should be twofold. How do I avoid being victimized by this trend and how do we as a society reverse this trend and return our country to one where LEO is accountable to the citizens. We need to find a way to transform police services back into the realm of public service, not a militarized reincarnation of the Gestapo or SS storming through doors terrorizing all in their path.

jr81452
June 17, 2007, 05:35 PM
i don't really want to get into this conversation but some of the posts got me to thinking about the anti gun congress critters using the pages of these forums to further their cause. so i did some searching on the net and found that if you type "shoot LEO's" into yahoo search, a page on THR comes up as #4 on the list. just something to keep in mind as you type out these hypothetical responses.

tepin
June 17, 2007, 09:07 PM
My alarm is always armed. Glass is 24 hour, doors are 24 hour (mostly) and motion armed when I am in bed or not home. I walk the house, eat dinner and watch TV with my .38+P in my lap. The .40 and .45 are in the bedroom for night-time use.

1. You are eating popcorn while watching TV: Cops dont raid homes wearing hoodies and t-shirts that say, "word-up" and I certainly dont know any cops with gold caps on their front teeth. Given that, shoot if the folks entering your home do not look like the police

2. Its 4AM and your alarm sounds: Most likely, if the people that kicked your door in and are yelling "police" AND they continue to the back of the home with the alarm sounding, it might in fact be the police. I am guessing that if it wasnt the police, the intruders would be making a fast exit as the alarm system is now calling for help.

I dont know about the rest of you but when I wake up in the AM, I have a hard time walking for the first 20-50 seconds so if some pros invaded my home and I had no notice, I am thinking I would be screwed.

my $0.02

pax
June 17, 2007, 09:59 PM
Jeff ~

You know, I'm always a little surprised you get so angry at these threads.

Your point is -- as always -- that ordinary people don't have snowball's chance in Hades of successfully fighting back against a SWAT team on a no-knock.

You add, as always, that mistaken no-knocks are "as rare as a meteor strike" in the first place. (A tiny bit of hyperbole! Exactly one person in known history has ever been struck by a meteorite, and that wasn't even a serious injury.)

But these events are extremely, extremely rare, you say. And there's no chance of anyone fighting back successfully anyway.

So why in the world would it bother you that some people hate the idea of these things so very much that they would fight back if they could, and vow that if a mistaken-address no-knock ever happens to them, they want to take somebody to Hades with them? Why even worry about it, if it's such a fantasy?

I'll tell you why: it's because mistaken no-knocks are not rare enough.

That's why it bothers you. You're afraid someone -- an otherwise law-abiding person, who therefore really has no reason to expect the SWAT team to visit -- will fight back, and kill a good man when he does.

Not rare enough, apparently.

And that should give you something to think about.

pax

pacodelahoya
June 17, 2007, 10:00 PM
Pax,
thank you.

Elza
June 17, 2007, 11:16 PM
pax, you summed it up better that the rest of us combined.

thexrayboy
June 17, 2007, 11:16 PM
Well said Pax.

Art Eatman
June 18, 2007, 12:42 AM
Trouble is, "no knock" has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. Even "SWAT team" is at best peripheral.

The subject is armed invasion of a home, but with the resident having "answered a knock on the door", which I assume means he opened the door to see who had knocked. There was a mention of an earlier home invasion where the invaders had claimed to be police. Both invasions were admittedly at wrong addresses, although that has no real bearing on any discussion of "What to do?"

Aside from what I posted earlier, I'd add that it would be wise to plan ahead: Have some sort of "spy window" so the resident could visually identify anybody standing in front of the door.

Art

Elza
June 18, 2007, 01:05 AM
Art brings up a good point: know who is there without them knowing that you know. If you are paranoid (like me) an infrared video camera can be mounted on the porch roof. You can get one from Radio Shack for under $100 and it even has an intercom built into it. They work quite well. (Ask me how I know. :D ) If you don’t want to go video, a simple door intercom is cheap and very easy to install. When you are done just tell them to get lost. Their only option (be it cop or criminal) is to walk away or kick the door in. By the time this happens you can be well prepared to meet the situation should they choose the latter option.

Jeff White
June 18, 2007, 02:47 AM
pax,
Your point is -- as always -- that ordinary people don't have snowball's chance in Hades of successfully fighting back against a SWAT team on a no-knock.

People don't stand the proverbial snowball's chance in Hades of successfully fighting back against a knock and announce either. This isn't some hypothetical situation to me. I have done this. I have taught other officers how to do this.

Let me explain how you will have to exist (yes I mean exist not live) in order to have a fighting chance. Every evening your family comes home. The first person to arrive home stops in a covered a concealed position away from the house and observes the house for 15 - 30 minutes to make sure no one has entered the house and is waiting in ambush. After the first person to arrive observes the neighborhood and is sure that there is nothing amiss, no vehicles or people who seem out of place, that person moves to the house and checks the perimeter, he/she checks the telltale devices left in all the doors and windows to be sure none of them have been breached. Then he/she enters the house. Once in the door secures it and moves to a covered and concealed position where he/she listens to the background noise in the house, if there are no unexplainable noises, he/she makes a quick sweep through the house making sure no one is there. Now he/she moves back to a covered and concealed position where he/she can over watch the rest of the family returning from their daily activities. The family member securing the house signals the rest of the family that it's safe to approach. As the next family member approaches home, he/she stops in a covered and concealed position before they get to the house and gives the family member in the house the prearranged far recognition signal. Once the far recognition signal is acknowledged, the family member approaches the house and stops at the door. The daily password and countersign is exchanged and if the family member requesting entry doesn't give the prearranged duress signal he/she is permitted to enter. Once the family member enters, he/she moves to his/her assigned defensive position and waits. The process is repeated until the entire family is home. Once everyone is home, armed and in their assigned defensive position, the family conducts stand to for an hour, in case someone was waiting for them all to arrive before they attacked. After an hour if activity in the neighborhood remains normal, security is dropped to one person watching and the rest of the family goes about their normal evening routine, preparing dinner, homework, reading, TV......When dinner is prepared, the family moves to their defensive positions taking their dinner with them and eat while watching. You have a couple choices when it comes to bed time. Everyone but the person on watch can sleep in one room, with the clothes they intend to fight in on and their weapons and ammunition by their side, touching, so that shaking one person awake will wake the rest, or at their defensive positions maybe tied together with a pull cord so that the person on watch can rouse everyone and have them ready. One hour before EENT (Earliest Evening Nautical Twilight) until one hour after all family members need to be in their defensive positions looking over the sights of their weapons because the enemy may assume that you are vulnerable then getting ready for bed. At bed time you have to divide the number of hours until 90 minutes before BMNT (Before Morning Nautical Twilight) by the number of family members old enough to stand watch. make your sleep plan, put the first watch on duty and everyone else sleeps. Of course you'll be awakened for things like a squad car showing up at the neighbors house to take a report, or an unidentified car parking down the street. Everyone will have to be alert and ready to fight in case it's the start of the raid. 90 minutes before BMNT everyone awakened, one at a time they use the bathroom, wipe the sleep from their eyes and get into their defensive position. By one hour before BMNT the entire family is awake, in their defensive position and ready to fight. They stay there until one hour after BMNT, the sun will be well up and you'll be able to get a good view of your surroundings. If everything appears normal, you can drop to minimal security as everyone prepares for their day. Breakfast is taken in your defensive positions (don't want to be caught unprepared while eating) the day's password and countersign and near and far recognition signals are passed out, the entire family covers the first person to leave the house and he/she conducts a quick recon of the neighborhood. Once the all clear is given the family departs for work, school, shopping... one at a time.

Following that plan or a similar one pretty much insures you won't be taken by surprise when the local boys in blue misread the address on the warrant and who knows, you may even kill more then one of the jack booted thugs before you die in a hail of gunfire. But just think, a thrilling existence until that day comes ( I say existence, because those of us who have existed that way for real sure didn't consider it living) and you'll undoubted be heroes and lauded all over the internet, from Stormfront to THR.....Of course, you'll be dead and probably other members of your family will be too, but hey, it's a small price to pay to make a statement :uhoh: :rolleyes:

You add, as always, that mistaken no-knocks are "as rare as a meteor strike" in the first place. (A tiny bit of hyperbole! Exactly one person in known history has ever been struck by a meteorite, and that wasn't even a serious injury.)

If ONE member of THR can prove they were the victim of a mistaken address no knock, I'll take back the part about the meteorite. I contend that it's never happened to a member here, which makes it rarer then the meteorite strike.

So why in the world would it bother you that some people hate the idea of these things so very much that they would fight back if they could, and vow that if a mistaken-address no-knock ever happens to them, they want to take somebody to Hades with them? Why even worry about it, if it's such a fantasy?

Because this fantasy, posted on a forum that calls itself The High Road, and has as it's mission to promote the responsible use of firearms makes law abiding gun owners look like Walter Mitty at best and anti government revolutionaries at worst. This is kind of drivel I would expect to read at Stormfront. The posters in these threads who hide behind screen names and vent their frustrations with the system have no freaking idea what kind of damage they do to RKBA. Someone point out one instance where an armed citizen drove the SWAT team off and won the fight.

I'll tell you why: it's because mistaken no-knocks are not rare enough.

How many no knock warrants are served in this country? Do you have any idea? Let me tell you the majority of search warrants served in this country are served by uniformed officers and detectives knocking on a door, presenting the warrant and doing their job without ever drawing a weapon. Those warrants that are served by tactical units are served that way because that is the safest way to do it. Safest for everyone. When you can come up with some numbers to compare your examples with against the total numbers of warrants served then we can discuss if they are rare enough. Like it or not, the police departments are staffed by human beings and human beings are fallible. Why don't we compare the number of mistaken no knocks against another thing that human beings participate in that can have serious consequences and get some real numbers. Or are you afraid to. The ball is in your court.

And are you really naive enough to think that encouraging people to think starting a gunfight in that situation is good idea is going to make the police stop serving search warrants? What do you hope to accomplish by giving advice on the internet that will get people killed. I'd like to remind you that this isn't some hypothetical exercise. People actually die in gunfights. And unlike the movies, you don't get up when the scene is over. You are dead, never to see your children or grandchildren again. And for what? To have them say what a patriot you were on the internet? Is it worth that? If you start shooting in a police raid, wrong address or not, someone WILL shoot you. It's just that freaking simple. So the question is, is it better to get a lawyer and file a 1983 action in federal court or is the proper response to go out in a hail of gunfire? That is exactly what you are advocating when you allow these threads to run.

That's why it bothers you. You're afraid someone -- an otherwise law-abiding person, who therefore really has no reason to expect the SWAT team to visit -- will fight back, and kill a good man when he does.

No it bothers me because two good men will die, the officer and the innocent citizen who decided to fight back. If you think I want to kill an innocent person you're very wrong.

THAT should give you something to think about. If you have to suffer the indignity of a mistaken police raid, you will have recourse in the courts. Damages will be paid, you will probably be a very wealthy person because federal law allows you to recover attorney fees. Is death preferable to indignity?

Jeff

pax
June 18, 2007, 03:28 AM
Art,

The problem is that we can't keep SWAT/police entries out of home invasion threads, because people are understandably worried about mistaken-identity shootings in these situations. I've got more than one friend with a badge, and I don't want to shoot them. I also hope they don't want to shoot me (though with my argumentative streak, one never knows about that :uhoh: ).

When we ask the questions about how to avoid doing that or having it done to us, the answer is real simple: "Don't do criminal stuff." Okay, I can manage that much at least!

Now, can the cops keep up their end of that bargain, and stay out of the homes of non-criminals? Nope, they can't. They're human, and "humans make mistakes."

And that brings us to Jeff's post.

Jeff ~

I'm not advocating anybody fight the SWAT team. I am pointing out that the choices all suck. And the reason the choices suck is because the cops have done a frighteningly good job of emulating criminal behavior in home-invasion robberies.

Nobody in his right mind wants to murder a police officer or be murdered by one ... but also, nobody in their right mind wants to react so hesitantly to a genuine criminal invasion that they and their family are left utterly at the mercy of the merciless. The reward for compliant behavior in criminal home invasions is often that they get to watch their family tortured and killed in front of them by the intruders.

Alarms, good door locks, and a decently intelligent door design that lets you see who is on your front porch are all good things. But I believe that, in addition to deterrence, one of the purposes of hardening your home is to buy you time so you can greet an intruder with the prescribed level of force if they keep coming right through those defenses.

No good person wants to kill a cop or be killed by one. But we keep hearing these stories because the criminals and the cops are doing a frighteningly good job of imitating each other's tactics these days. You cannot trust a shouted "Police!!" anymore, if indeed you ever could. And in a moment of high stress, disoriented and terrified, it might be a little difficult to tell who the players are.

So here's the math as I see it:


It's a cop, and you go for a gun: you die by a quick bullet.
It's a criminal, and you go for a gun: you win and live, or you die by a bullet.
It's a cop, and you don't go for a gun: you live and maybe get a potful of money from the civil suit.
It's a criminal, and you don't go for a gun: you die by slow torture and your family suffers and dies with you.


Not a lot of fun choices there.

If it were possible, I'd certainly prefer to live and collect that pot of gold. But (given my very, very, very low risk of a police raid), I am not sure that I am willing to gamble even a tall stack of coins against the possibility of death by torture for me and my entire family. If I'm going to die, I'd rather die by a quick bullet than by slow torture.

The choices all suck, that's what I'm saying.

I don't think it's particularly responsible to defend police behavior that causes ordinary citizens to confuse cops with criminals during high-stress situations. Because that confusion is why the choices here all suck.

pax

GuyWithQuestions
June 18, 2007, 05:33 AM
I think that the chances of overcoming a SWAT team are next to 100% unlikely, and why would anyone even want to overcome one who mistakes your house anyway when you'd just die in the gunfight when you could just sue for a lot of money? SWAT teams train well and don't have to learn their techniques so much through trial and error that experienced criminals have had to go through, so they won't have as much room for mistakes. But what about the chances of overcoming criminals who pretend to be police but obviously aren't? Some may be impossible to overcome while some may not be. I was reading that even in car jackings, a high percentage of them are not successful. Most of the ones that are not successful are because the robber wasn't armed with a gun but rather some other deadly weapon or nothing. Even with the ones that have guns, not all of them are successful. Even in home invasions, some people are successful at stopping the attack, and is it worth it if you would die anyway? What about that one boy who stabbed that home intruder because he believed it was necessary to stop or prevent the unlawful use of force against his family? Although some criminals are as good as SWAT teams, are all of them really that proficient. It takes trial and error to become a very skilled violent criminal, not already having your techniques available to be trained on like in SWAT training. If someone really is a criminal, do you have anything to lose by fighting back if it looks like you're about to die?

helpless
June 18, 2007, 05:46 AM
Now think about if that dead person was not some scumbag, but a cop who had the wrong address and was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Justified or not, you are in the legal fight of your life and will probably spend every dime that you have in the process. It would not be pretty.
3am you knock and I will come answer the door. Kick it open and you are a scumbag, LE or not.

This is the United States of AMERICA. Kicking in doors of innocent citizens is not acceptable.

coyote_jr
June 18, 2007, 05:53 AM
This thread is still going?

GuyWithQuestions
June 18, 2007, 05:56 AM
Part of it is just using common sense.
- If the people at the door identify themselves as police, they are in uniform, and a cruiser is visible in the street, Occams Razor says they are police.
- If the people identifying themselves as police have hooded sweatshirts on, jungle pants that they have to keep one hand on to hold up, and a 1965 chevy with 24 in rims on it is parked in front of your house, don't open the damn door.

That's what I'm afraid of. What if some people with hooded sweat shirts and baggy pants come to your door claiming to be undercover cops and pull out badges that look real, but you get a weird feeling? Remembering all of those news stories you've read about LEO impersonators, you respond, "How do I know that you're not serial killers. I'm going to call 911 just to verify. I'm sure that you're good guys, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Stay right here while I call 911." Then one of them says, "We knocked politely and if you don't let us in the law says that we can blow your door down. You will be arrested for resisting arrest and will spend time in jail!" So now what do you do? The clothing doesn't match law enforcement attire, by any means, hooded sweat shirts and baggy pants. They show you ID badges and say that you'll spend time in jail for resisting. You don't want to get in trouble, but don't want to be a victim. I've not heard of many news stories where police invade the wrong home, but have heard more news about LE impersonators. If you truly do find yourself in this exact situation, what do you do at this point from a non-fantasy viewpoint? Reading about the only survivor of Ted Bundy and some other serial killers incidents, this scenario doesn't seem that far fetched. I'm just really curious what you should do at this point?


You guys would be better advised to look at motion detectors, alarms, steel doors, lexan windows in steel frames and other physical security measures to defend yourself from either threat. The idea that you're going to be seated in your living room watching TV or sleeping in your bed when the door comes down and you're going to react in time to shoot someone is crazy.
So what if the criminal's intent isn't to break in and take you by surprise in the middle of the night, but to con you? I've heard that a lot of violent criminals try to position/isolate/weaken their victim's defenses some how before they attack, because they want the fight to be as easy for themselves as possible. So what if you have all of this fortress stuff and someone knocks on the door claiming to be an undercover officer, as a con technique to get around all of this?

GuyWithQuestions
June 18, 2007, 06:00 AM
Anybody here remember the millionaire in California whose home was raided due to phony info to the law, a lie about him being a marijuana smuggler? He'd happened to wake up, get a drink of water, and heard noises. He got his handgun and was prepared to resist whoever came into his house.

He got shot and killed.


Some people feel worried and helpless. If you hear breaking in during the middle of the night and have a gun, do you just leave it in your bedroom just in case it's the police, because you don't want them to see you with it and shoot you? Many people hear about how incidents like this happen and don't know what strategy they should use and feel helpless.

GuyWithQuestions
June 18, 2007, 06:04 AM
You'd(third person not personal) never make it past my attack chihuahuas without alerting me.



Don't SWAT members have high and thick boots and other equipment that protect themselves from those types of attacks?

pacodelahoya
June 18, 2007, 06:53 AM
At least one person found the humor.:D

Don't SWAT members have high and thick boots and other equipment that protect themselves from those types of attacks?

I'm afraid you underestimate their sneakiness!!:evil:

OAKTOWN
June 18, 2007, 11:57 AM
Yep, never happens...

http://www.durangoherald.com/asp-bin/article_generation.asp?article_type=news&article_path=/news/07/news070615_1.htm

Frankly, I'm more concerned about cops breaking into my house than the local thugs. These screw ups force citizens defending their homes into kill or be killed situations. Does anyone for a minute believe that if you armed and meet the "dyanamic entry team" coming up your stairs they aren't going to execute you on the spot? Before you have a chance to drop your weapon they'll light you up like the Fourth of July.

Of course you could fight back, people have gotten lucky before. The difference is this however; the cops break into you house and kill you, they say, "Ooops, sorry we were too incompetent to read the house numbers here's $X00,000, now go away little people." If you succeed in defending yourself from the goons that broke into your house and tried to kill you, "You're an evil dangerous person, how dare you not just lay down and die. We're sending you to prision forever."

The only thing that will stop this is action at the ballot box. We need to demand to be treated as citizens, not subjects.

mbt2001
June 18, 2007, 11:59 AM
Seriously though, if cops kick in my door and I respond, thinking they are criminals and die in the process then:

1.) I don't want to continue living in this world anyway
2.) Good life insurance and Christian Living give me hope that things will work out for my family and me, although the life insurance won't be much help to me because I am now dead....
3.) Governments only understand DEAD BODIES. That is it. When you rack up enough stiffs on one side or the other that is when things change.

AF_INT1N0
June 18, 2007, 12:14 PM
Attack chihuahuas? lol

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
You'd(third person not personal) never make it past my attack chihuahuas without alerting me.


Don't SWAT members have high and thick boots and other equipment that protect themselves from those types of attacks?

Not if they are Chihuahuas WITH FRIGGEN LASER BEAMS!!!!!! [/doctor evil voice]

Sindawe
June 18, 2007, 12:25 PM
From OAKTOWN's link:

Drug raid nabs wrong woman
Officers try to arrest 77-year-old; intended target was next door

June 15, 2007
By Shane Benjamin | Herald Staff Writer

Law-enforcement officers raided the wrong house and forced a 77-year-old La Plata County woman on oxygen to the ground last week in search of methamphetamine.

The house on the right is Herrick’s home. The one to the left is the trailer that was supposed to be raided.

The raid occurred about 11 a.m. June 8, as Virginia Herrick was settling in to watch "The Price is Right." She heard a rustling outside her mobile home in Durango West I and looked out to see several men with gas masks and bulletproof vests, she said.

Herrick went to the back door to have a look.

"I thought there was a gas leak or something," she said.

But before reaching the door, La Plata County Sheriff's deputies shouted "search warrant, search warrant" and barged in with guns drawn, she said. They ordered Herrick to the ground and began searching the home.

"They didn't give me a chance to ask for a search warrant or see a search warrant or anything," she said in a phone interview Thursday. "I'm not about to argue with those big old guys, especially when they've got guns and those big old sledgehammers."

La Plata County Sheriff Duke Schirard and Southwest Drug Task Force Director Lt. Rick Brown confirmed Herrick's story.

Some deputies stayed with Herrick as others searched the house. They entered every bedroom and overturned a mattress in her son's room.

Deputies asked Herrick if she knew a certain man, and she said no. Then they asked what address they were at, and she told them 74 Hidden Lane.

Deputies intended to raid 82 Hidden Lane - the house next door.

While Herrick was on the ground, deputies began placing handcuffs on her. They cuffed one wrist and were preparing to cuff the other.

"I had gotten really angry, and I was shaking from the whole incident," she said.

Once deputies realized their mistake, they tried to help Herrick stand up and help her clean up the mess they created.

"I'm kind of a little stiff getting up," she said.

But Herrick wanted the deputies out.

"Not too much later, the sheriff came up and apologized, and apologized and apologized," she said.

Schirard and Brown provided context for how the mistake occurred, and said that they ultimately busted the correct house and captured $51,520 worth of meth.

For one month, the Southwest Drug Task Force had been investigating drug activity at 82 Hidden Lane, and investigators made several undercover meth purchases from a man who lived at the house. Brown declined to release the man's name, citing an ongoing investigation.

On June 8, the task force decided to end the undercover operation and arrest the man. Rather than arrest him inside his home, investigators set up a drug deal to lure him outside.

As the suspect drove toward the meeting location at the entrance of Durango West I, a deputy attempted to pull him over as if it were a routine traffic stop.

But the suspect hit the gas and led deputies on a 57-second chase through the Durango West neighborhood. The chase covered four-tenths of a mile with speeds reaching 45 mph. While driving, the suspect threw bags of meth out of the car and erased phone numbers from his cell phone, Brown said.

The suspect eventually crashed into a power box and was arrested without incident.

While task-force members were detaining him, other law-enforcement-officials were ordered to execute a search warrant at 82 Hidden Lane.

After raiding the wrong house, deputies regrouped and decided to enter the correct house. That raid was successful: Two people were arrested and 7.2 ounces of meth was seized, Brown said.

In all, the task force seized a total of 2.3 pounds of meth during the investigation, he said. That includes the meth investigators bought while undercover and the meth the suspect threw from his car during the chase, Brown said. The street value for 1 ounce of meth is $1,400.

"They were slinging a lot of dope in this community," Brown said. "We took a lot of meth off the streets."

Raiding the wrong house was a mistake, but it's one the task force has been learning from, Brown said. The mistake could have compromised the investigation and deputy safety. Had the true suspects learned of the raid, they could have disposed of the narcotics and armed themselves in anticipation of a raid.

Agencies involved in the raid included the task force and the La Plata County Sheriff's Office SWAT team.

Herrick's home and the one next door had similar qualities, Brown said, and it didn't help that deputies were entering through the back.

In the future, Brown said agents familiar with a particular raid will physically point deputies to the home, and pictures of the home will be distributed to those involved.

Herrick's son, David Herrick, said investigators surveilled the neighbor's house before the raid, and it was extremely unprofessional to enter the wrong house.

"There is a big difference between 74 and 82," he said, referring to the house numbers.

What's more, Herrick doesn't understand why his 77-year-old mother was handcuffed.

"Why they thought it was necessary to handcuff her and put her on the floor I don't know," he said. "And then they had to ask her what the address was."

Brown said it is common practice to make all occupants lie on the ground handcuffed in case gunfire erupts.

"It's just safe for everybody if they're controlled on the ground," he said.

David Herrick said he has contacted lawyers about a possible lawsuit.

"It's pretty upsetting that they do that to a 77-year-old," he said. "A little common sense, I think, would have helped out on the problem a lot."

Virginia Herrick said she is glad her meth-dealing neighbors are gone, but also said: "I'm still angry at the whole situation. For them to raid the wrong trailer was not very smart."

Apparently the people La Plata County hires for law enforcement are either blind or idiots (possibly both).

"Herrick's home and the one next door had similar qualities, Brown said, and it didn't help that deputies were entering through the back. " The ONLY similarity between the two residences is the they are both manufactured homes. Mrs. Herrick's home looks to be a late model double wide, while the target looks to be a much older single wide.

Caption from link of image below: "The house on the right is Herrick’s home. The one to the left is the trailer that was supposed to be raided."

McCall911
June 18, 2007, 12:54 PM
Caption from link of image below: "The house on the right is Herrick’s home. The one to the left is the trailer that was supposed to be raided."

Well, the one on the right looks more comfortable and it's easier to get to.
:rolleyes:

"Not too much later, the sheriff came up and apologized, and apologized and apologized," she said.

But I hope that doesn't stop her from suing, suing, suing.

budney
June 18, 2007, 02:44 PM
How many no knock warrants are served in this country? Do you have any idea?

On the order of 40,000 per year. That's an unacceptably high margin of error.

--Len.

Art Eatman
June 18, 2007, 03:58 PM
budney, I'm afraid that to have any credibility, you're going to have to provide some good links. 110 "No Knock" entries per day?

Art

Elza
June 18, 2007, 04:04 PM
How many no knock warrants are served in this country? Do you have any idea? Good question. For some reason the statistics are hard to come by. I've tried with very little success. Anyone care to venture a guess why?

ArmedBear
June 18, 2007, 04:18 PM
CATO Institute map of "Botched Paramilitary Police Raids"

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

This includes more than no-knocks warrants, but it is some real data for those who want to see some.

Paper on same, for sale (Executive Summary on line at this link): http://www.catostore.org/index.asp?fa=ProductDetails&method=cats&scid=15&pid=1441318

wjustinen
June 18, 2007, 04:32 PM
there is never a legitimate reason for an LEO home invasion. The fact that they occur is proof positive that we do not live in free nations.

Plenty of talk about how we change that. Plenty of reason to wonder if it is possible. In our neck of the woods, it appears that these home invasions are a manifestation of the poorly trained LEO looking for an advantage. That lack of training also shows up clearly when the six or sixteen year old with a water pistol is shot.

But, this is starting to sound like I'm slamming LEOs. Far from it.

budney
June 18, 2007, 04:38 PM
budney, I'm afraid that to have any credibility, you're going to have to provide some good links. 110 "No Knock" entries per day?

Sure. This reference also comes from the Cato Institute: Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476). The full report is a PDF. It cites the 40,000-per-year figure from Dr. Peter Kraska (http://www.justice.eku.edu/facultyStaff/details.asp?userEmail=peter.kraska@eku.edu), “Researching the Police-Military Blur: Lessons Learned,” Police Forum 14, no. 3 (2005).

The same Kraska remarked in a BBC interview (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4803570.stm), "I get several calls a month from people asking about local incidents - wrong address raids, excessive use of force, wrongful shootings - this stuff is happening all the time."

--Len.

McCall911
June 18, 2007, 04:41 PM
But, this is starting to sound like I'm slamming LEOs. Far from it.

I didn't think you were. And good point about LEO home invasions/scary losses of freedom. I agree 1000 percent.

And I wasn't slamming LEOs either, BTW. Some of my best friends are or were LEOs. But sometimes LEOs make really embarrassing, boneheaded mistakes.

Art Eatman
June 18, 2007, 04:59 PM
Okay, stipulating the survey and conclusions are accurate: It's a 21-year record, averaging seven wrong addresses, nationwide, per year. Also, averaging two deaths per year, nationwide, of innocent people.

While I'd agree that one of either is Bad News, it seems to me that for 40,000 events per year, the screw-up rate is extremely small. One wrong address in 6,000 raids? One dead innocent per 20,000 raids?

I don't see how you can have 40,000 arrests of any sort without something bad happening.

Not that I approve of the WOD or no-knock...

Art

jselvy
June 18, 2007, 05:11 PM
One wrong address in 6,000 raids? One dead innocent per 20,000 raids?
Art,
Wouldn't that be one too many of each. If it were your Mother/daughter/sister shot and killed in that one in 20,000, would it still be acceptable?
I say that any innocent death is too many innocent deaths.

Jefferson

Art Eatman
June 18, 2007, 05:16 PM
jselvy, I don't think you need to repeat what I already said...

I guess my point is that I'm amazed that the Bad Things are as few as have occurred.

But the only solution is legislative.

Art

jselvy
June 18, 2007, 05:21 PM
Citing habits from writing college papers. I have a bad habit of over-quoting.

Jefferson

Elza
June 18, 2007, 05:30 PM
Thank you good sir! I've been on that site before as I recognized the opening page but I couldn't remember where it was. Google type searches bring up so much junk I sometimes lack the patience to wade through it.

LawBot5000
June 18, 2007, 05:31 PM
I think that insurance company records would be a more reliable indicator than police self-reporting.

Also, I dont agree with Jeff's absurd claim that you need special signals and people taking turns watching 24/7.

All you need is enough mechanical obstructions to delay the intruders, enough sirens to wake the neighborhood and enough rifle to negate all cover. And those are just the anti-burglar provisions! I guess I anticipate really well armored burglars.

I think my legal instincts are good enough that I could avoid doing anything I wouldn't be able to justify before a judge or jury.

That being said, I think that the police accidentally raiding in this neighborhood are pretty slim. I mean, police live in this neighborhood, think of the risk! My personal experience is that the police are generally pretty careful. It would take a rare combination of sloppiness and trigger-happiness to make cops get the wrong address, then foolishly decide to kick in the door and then compound it by not identifying themselves and/or shooting the inhabitants. Do that in a house where people can afford lawyers (or happen to be lawyers) and it can land your entire department in hot water. Actually, far less than that can get you in a lot of trouble. A police agency has to be overcome by a pretty serious cancer of corruption and incompetence before these things start happening.

SkiLune
June 18, 2007, 05:48 PM
I hate these threads, and I hate no knock raids (see Cato Institute study -- An epidemic of isolated incidents).

Much as I dislike the FACT that the average citizen doesn't have much of a chance against a mistaken paramilitary raid (sad that we even have to think about this in the land of the free and the home of the brave), I still prefer having some sort of a defensive plan in the event of a home invasion against a group of thugs.

Would Jeff or Pax or Art critique this plan and tell me if it is realistic, or there should be more?

In event of a night intruder.

I have several portable motion detectors, and alarms on doors and windows at strategic entry points. My bedroom is up a long flight of open stairs, and I have a good strategic place of cover at the top just inside my bedroom door. I have a few other defensive measures in place to buy time, but I don't want to place them online.

In the event I get awakened (yeah, I know, any mistaken Swat raids and the first thing I'd see is blinding white light....), my plan is to:

1. Grab my bedside gun (Glock 22 with insight laser tac light), and if time allows...
2. Quietly take up defensive position atop stairs. Again, if time allows...
3. Call 911, inform them of intruder, don't hang up and place down phone
4. Announce, loudly, that I am armed and police have been summoned. Leave now.

I don't care about any material possesions, for which I have insurance and thats just stuff.

Does that sound reasonable? Are there other measures I should take? Any reasonable input is welcome. Thanx.

Jeff White
June 18, 2007, 05:59 PM
Also, I dont agree with Jeff's absurd claim that you need special signals and people taking turns watching 24/7.

It's not absurd at all. Mechanical devices can fail or be neutralized or otherwise defeated. Of course the person you have on watch could fall asleep....nothing is 100%. If those measures aren't necessary why are they SOP in combat?

SkiLune,
That sounds like a reasonable plan. I'd suggest that you keep a cell phone next to your land line in case the phone line has been cut.

Jeff

budney
June 18, 2007, 06:06 PM
While I'd agree that one of either is Bad News, it seems to me that for 40,000 events per year, the screw-up rate is extremely small. One wrong address in 6,000 raids? One dead innocent per 20,000 raids?

I can't confirm or deny the error rate--but even with an error rate of 0%, that many commando raids on citizens is an obscenity. ANY commando-style raids is an obscenity, unless we're dealing with a volatile hostage situation or a mass murder in progress.


It's not absurd at all. Mechanical devices can fail or be neutralized or otherwise defeated. Of course the person you have on watch could fall asleep....nothing is 100%. If those measures aren't necessary why are they SOP in combat?

Absolutely. Nevertheless, partial measures are much better than no measures. Alarms, lights, hardening, etc., will greatly reduce the chances that casual invaders get in, and are among the measures least likely to directly result in a SWAT team gunning you down (unless, I suppose, the extra work breaking your door really pisses someone off).

Armed resistance against a SWAT team is pointless unless you really do plan to die in a blaze of glory: supposing you actually defeat the entire team, they'll simply surround your house with tanks. If you escape into the woods, you'll become the target of a nation-wide manhunt. If you don't make it to Mexico fast, you'll end up strapped to a gurney for sure.

BUT, slowing them down is helpful. It gives you time to wake up, at worst, and to call the police, at best. And if they penetrate reasonably solid defenses, then they're either cops or the A-Team. At least you'll be awake enough to realize that, and lay down with your hands on your head (and start the video cameras rolling, if you're smart!).

--Len.

nobody_special
June 18, 2007, 06:27 PM
If ONE member of THR can prove they were the victim of a mistaken address no knock, I'll take back the part about the meteorite. I contend that it's never happened to a member here, which makes it rarer then the meteorite strike.

No, it doesn't, and you know it. So I'm going to have to question the motive behind your arguments here, Mr. White.

Meteor strikes are virtually unheard of throughout the world in all of history. What's the membership of THR? Not a comparable sample by any stretch of the imagination, I'd say. Further, consider the stats that budney posted; 40,000 a year is a lot. Even if that's inaccurate by a factor of 10, it's still a lot.

Pax is right. And further, in the stories I've read, the citizen victims of no-knock raids often report that the police did not announce... and it doesn't really matter if they say "Police! Search warrant!", anyway, if the resident only wakes up afterward when the door is bashed in.

If someone invades my home in the middle of the night, I'm going to arm myself; I'd be foolish not to. And if it happens to be the police on a mistaken raid, I'm going to die.

This shouldn't happen in America.

It's interesting that the number of deaths in botched no-knock raids is so low. This topic is particularly relevant here on THR though, because this is a firearms community, and gun owners are probably more likely to be killed in the event of a mistaken police raid.

The Amigo
June 18, 2007, 06:33 PM
Any person who points a gun to any uniformed and properly identified LEO in my books is a fool and nothing but a fool, whether in his house in the sea or in the air... Want to get shot real fast for free try it..

But that's not the case here my advise is if someone knocks at your door claiming there police ask for ID (under the door) and call the Police department to verify prior to opening your door.

If some one kicks your door in with no way for u to identify then self defense is in order.

If someone kicks your door in full body armor, helmet and mp5 yelling police and you want to play crazy commando its hard to sue the police when you are dead but then again its your life not mine :D

Titan6
June 18, 2007, 06:53 PM
Jeff- Not trying to stoke any flames here but I was the victim of a mistaken address warrant. In all fairness though it really was not that bad.

I was out in my shed on the fourth of July getting some garden tools out about four years ago and I looked out and saw a county car sitting in the drive (I lived in a different state at the time). I came out of the shed to see what he wanted and the officer said "Mr. Brown! Mr. Brown". He had his hand on his pistol, still holstered standing about 25 yards away.

I said "I am not Mr. Brown, he does not live here he lives XXXXX". I turned to walk off up into my garden.

He said "Stop! Stop! Mr. Brown" I turned back around and looked at him he looked at his papers (which had a picture of the guy on the top) and then back at me and back at the picture about three times, all while being quite tense. It looked like he was going to draw on me.

I said "Look at the height weight and you might notice that I am about ten inches taller and 100 pounds heavier". This caused him to relax a little but he still was not so convinced so I fished out some ID and showed it to him. Once this was done he still seemed a little miffed but I explained to him how he gotten our houses mixed up.

He said they often serve warrants on holidays because the person is normally home when the otherwise might not be. The guy was a neighbor who had moved away and was wanted for several charges of fraud and missing court and a few other non-violent crimes so there was no SWAT.

So yeah mix-ups happen a bit. I would say 99% of the time they do not end up in a shoot out with the police or with police abusing people for no reason. But that still happens also.

I suppose if I had kept going to my garden instead of waxing compliant then things could have gotten ugly. I did not feel any need to comply with the officer's orders as he had come on to my property and was ordering me around without cause. I also had the benefit of knowing what was going on (I knew that guy was in legal trouble and the police were looking for him) and no one was breaking down my door at 0300 either.

The police don't seem to understand that if you break down someone's door in the middle of the night people are just as likely to fight back if they know that they have done nothing wrong. I wonder if there is any training for this? I seriously doubt it.

Edit: You said you wanted proof. Of course I have no proof.

Elza
June 18, 2007, 07:28 PM
Hardening your home is absolutly the first step. It’s not all that difficult to do nor is it terribly expensive. If you are not handy with things electronic, get a friend and some steaks for the BBQ.

Anyone coming into my home is in for some rude surprises. I’m a professional electronics technician with a very active imagination. :evil: There will be no further details along this line. Just make sure that anything you dream up doesn’t involve booby traps! They will hang your butt for this!!

One thing I will talk about since knowing about it will make no difference. If you have a two storey house there is a way to buy some time. Fabricate a heavy grate made of steel bars to lay over the stairwell opening. Paint it flat black so it is virtually invisible from below. Hinge and counterbalance so it can easily be lifted. I case of an emergency just give it a yank and let it go to the upright position on its own. If the alarm trips it electrically locks down. Now you have your alarm system going off and the grate is securely locked into place. Can this be breached? Certainly. Anything can be. But, it will take time to figure it out and get things into place to do so. This will give you more than enough time to wake up and get yourself together. Plus, it would be an absolute hoot to see the first SOB come blasting up the stairs, split his skull open (or ring his bell if wearing a helmet), the roll a$$-over-tin cup back down the stairs. This alone will give them pause to figure out what happened.

Every place is different and will require a different approach. If this isn’t your cup of tea, talk to your friends. (Who knows? You might know someone like me.) Or, get some professional input. You will be surprised at what you can do and how little it costs.

jselvy
June 18, 2007, 07:36 PM
Elza,
That's a portcullis. State of the 11th century art for castle defense. Who says that old solutions don't work. I love it. Could that be rigged to drop by a push button of some sort? For when you open the door for the wrong people?

Jefferson

Jeff White
June 18, 2007, 07:50 PM
No, it doesn't, and you know it. So I'm going to have to question the motive behind your arguments here, Mr. White.

My motives are quite simple. And very nefarious ;) My motives in trying to keep these threads from degenerating into 100+ posts of which 40% of the posts are members trying to one up each other talking about shooting anyone, police or not who breaks into their house. In an earlier thread on this subject a member even posted how he slept with his FAL by his bed so that he had the means at hand to penetrate body armor.

That motive is to keep the more vocal part of the membership from venting their frustrations with the system in a venue where their posts will be here as long as the server is up. Why, you ask should I want to do that?

It's quite simple, I want my grandkids to enjoy my guns long after I'm gone. And for the most part, the online firearms community is it's own worst enemy. You can go through the posts on any large firearms forum and find plenty of evidence that we are just as the antis like to portray us in the cartoons on the editorial page.

We think we are the majority in this country, the great silent majority. But the truth is, we aren't. Sure the statistics show that there are guns in more American households then not. But what the statistics don't show is that in most of those households, the gun is on the top shelf of a closet and it's lucky if the owner could tell you where it was without thinking about it for a minute. It's those people who are going to decide the future of RKBA in this country. The Brady's and the rest of their ilk have been pretty much marginalized. But they are still there.

The online firearms community is going a long way towards marginalizing themselves. What do you think the person who never really thought about guns before thinks when they inherit grandpa's or dad's gun and surfs around the web looking for info thinks when they surf onto a forum and starts reading some of the stuff that is posted here (and it's much worse in a lot of places)?

Do you think the discourse that goes on in this kind of thread wants to make them become one of us, or do you think they might think, "I don't want to be on the range with some of those people, they're crazy." What about supporting reasonable restrictions when it comes to new gun laws. Do you think they will see how unreasonable they really are after we've showed them we really are like the fat unshaven guy in BDU pants with the KKK t-shirt that was on the editorial page?

We are in a culture war. The urbanization or our society and the lack of places to shoot and the increase in other interests are all working against us. Why do we want to work against ourselves. A public online forum is not the place to post the same things you say to your buddies at the gun shop on Saturday morning.

We damage our cause every time we do that. People who aren't members of the gun culture read what's posted here. And like it or not, those people, not us, not the Bradys are going to decide the future of RKBA in this country.

The truth about home invasions:

Home invasions of the type our membership are worried about are so rare as they are almost non-existent. People just don't bust into other peoples homes for the purpose of robbery, not without knowing there is something worth paying the high price for. If you are wealthy enough and keep enough valuables in your home that you are at risk of that type of home invasion robbery, then you are likely to be hit by a professional criminal crew and you'll have about the same odds of successfully defending yourself as you would against the SWAT team.

Criminal home invasions fall into these categories:

Criminals ripping off other criminals...usually drugs and/or the cash that goes with them. Don't live that lifestyle and the chances of being a victim of that crime are zero.

Bad blood between the occupants and the home invaders....This is the most common type of home invasion. It occurs when someone feels they have been slighted and that the solution is to bust in and kick the offender's rear end. The bad guys usually are shocked to find out what kind of prison time they are looking at over a stunt like that.

The victim has something of great value in the house that it's worth the risk to break in and take by force. This scenario makes a great screenplay. But in reality it doesn't often happen. In fact, in 22 years working in the a rural county that has one of the highest per capita crime rates in Illinois, I can think of one time that it happened. There was a man who ran a vending machine business. He kept large amounts of cash overnight in home. I don't know why he didn't use the night depository, but anyway one night two people burst through his door while he and his wife were watching TV, he jumped up out of his chair and was slugged for his trouble. He and his wife were tied to chairs with duct tape and the home invaders escaped with a large amount of cash. The crime was never solved. We had a pretty good idea it was a nephew, but we have never developed enough evidence to make a charge.

Here is the reality. If you aren't involved in a criminal lifestyle or having serious family problems with people prone to violence your chances of someone breaking down your door while you are home to do you harm are almost nil. If you don't deal drugs, or allow people who do deal drugs to live with you, the chance of someone claiming to be the police to keep you from shooting them as they break into your house are also practically zero.

Despite the gun culture myths that are perpetuated on the internet, we live in a pretty safe society. Don't hang with people who have of criminal lifestyle or live on the edge of one yourself, or frequent the places those people do and the chances of being the victim of a violent crime drop considerably. Most violent crime is criminal on criminal. Normal everyday people are more likely to be victims of property crime, burglary or theft. In a large percentage of those crimes, they are victims because they refused to accept the fact that there are bad people in the world. So they leave valuable yard equipment outside in the yard overnight, don't lock their homes, garages, sheds and vehicles.

I'm not suggesting that everyone put their home defense gun in the safe every night and lock the it up, what I'm suggesting is that we spend way too much bandwidth discussing gunfights that are nothing but pure fantasy.

Now to get onto the issue of mistaken raids. Art ran the numbers. What other dangerous activity under human control has that low of an error rate? I agree that one is too many. But what is the solution? I sense that a lot of members here would just as soon disband the police and let everyone fend for him or herself. This is a no-win situation. Enforce the law and you're a jackbooted thug subjugating the population. Turn a blind eye to the law and you're a corrupt incompetent. If you want this situation to change, I suggest you change the law. If you think that someone in the government reads these threads and says; "Boys, we better back off, the gun owners are getting riled up." You're wrong. If anything these threads are pointed at as justification for more equipment and training.

If it were up to me I'd legalize drugs, all of them. That would solve the problem as 99% of the search warrants served are part of the failed war on drugs. But it's not up to me and I don't see any groundswell of public support for that idea.

I know it pisses some of you off that I am so direct. That's the way I am, don't take it personal. This isn't a theoretical issue for me like it is for most of you. I have no desire to see anyone die, either an officer or an innocent citizen. That's why I say, fix up your home so you'll have enough warning to call the authorities and find out what's going on. Grab up a gun and it's a police raid, and you will almost surely die. That's not meant to upset anyone, it's just the way it is. And leave the brave talk about rolling out of bed and shooting people at the gun shop. It makes all of us look bad, not like the responsible gun owners we are.

Jeff

Elza
June 18, 2007, 07:54 PM
jselvy: That's a portcullis. State of the 11th century art for castle defense.Bingo!! I do so love the History Channel.

jselvy: Could that be rigged to drop by a push button of some sort? For when you open the door for the wrong people?
You could but I would not recommend it. If something failed, as anything can do, it could come down on you or your family and could well be fatal. If it was a cop they would have you in prison if you weren’t ‘accidentally’ shot first. Mine is locked in the up right position and must be released and manually lowered into position. This prevents any accidents.

I actually toyed with the idea of mounting it horizontally (laying it between the floor joists) and closing it using shotgun blanks. I nixed the idea because of the possibility of an accident.

Kentak
June 18, 2007, 08:15 PM
Elza,

Better yet, replace the stairway with an escalator so that the entry breach alarm starts the thing going down--fast. The intruders will be exhausted after a few minutes of running up the stairs and go home.

K

TallPine
June 18, 2007, 08:32 PM
Just make sure that anything you dream up doesn’t involve booby traps!
Does that mean I need to remove the five gallon bucket of chocolate syrup hanging above my front door ...?

Wheeler44
June 18, 2007, 09:04 PM
We think we are the majority in this country, the great silent majority. But the truth is, we aren't. Sure the statistics show that there are guns in more American households then not. But what the statistics don't show is that in most of those households, the gun is on the top shelf of a closet and it's lucky if the owner could tell you where it was without thinking about it for a minute. Jeff, you ask for proof and stats let's see yours. How many hunting licences, concealed carry permits, range trips ,hunter safety classes? How many gun purchases, firearm classes, tactical classes each year? How many fathers and mothers teaching their offspring the four rules? How many Eagle scouts with their rifle badges? ( do they even do that any more?) CCI/ Speer can't get enough employees to make ammunition in their Idaho plant without offering internships to college students. How many cowboy action , milsurp enthusiasts? How many.... well you get my drift.
I can tell you how many gun owning Americans killed by wrong address, late night police raids is too many. ONE.
I can tell you how many late night, wrong address police raids happened within 20 miles of my house this weekend. ONE.
I can tell you how many young fathers believing that they were defending their homes died during that raid. ONE.

Jeff ,you often say that most LEOs are just regular folk hoping to make it home after their shift. I would like to believe you, but I have met too many muscle flexing, power trippin' cops to believe you. When the local SWAT/CERT teams show up in an urban setting in full woodland camo wearing face paint it does nothing to ease the Us against them tension. Face paint indeed. If they knew they were acting honorably they wouldn't need to disguise themselves.

Jeff, the big question here is what have you done to change the system? Have you used your position as a LEO to try to change the law? Have you talked with your superiors about any over zealous ofiicers on your force? Or are there no bad cops where you work? Have you explained to your superiors that late night no knock raids can be dangerous to law abiding citizens?

I don't wantyou to take this too personal, but you are the guy who plays devils advocate for the LEO side on this forum, so you are the guy that draws the heat from the other side on this forum.

It would be great if we could all live in peace and harmony, but I don't see that happening in the near future.

So until then, Fathers will answer doors broken down in the middle of the night with guns in their hands. And I don't think glory is what they are thinkin about when they are standing at the top of the stairs in their underwear.

Jeff White
June 18, 2007, 09:46 PM
Jeff, you ask for proof and stats let's see yours. How many hunting licences, concealed carry permits, range trips ,hunter safety classes? How many gun purchases, firearm classes, tactical classes each year? How many fathers and mothers teaching their offspring the four rules? How many Eagle scouts with their rifle badges? ( do they even do that any more?) CCI/ Speer can't get enough employees to make ammunition in their Idaho plant without offering internships to college students. How many cowboy action , milsurp enthusiasts? How many.... well you get my drift.

I'll find some numbers in the next few days, but I can guarantee you that it will be a tiny percentage of the 300 + million people in the US.

I can tell you how many late night, wrong address police raids happened within 20 miles of my house this weekend. ONE.
I can tell you how many young fathers believing that they were defending their homes died during that raid. ONE.

You got some details? Surely there is at least a news article somewhere. In fact I'd be shocked if there wasn't already a thread here about that. Maybe there is, point me to it.

Jeff ,you often say that most LEOs are just regular folk hoping to make it home after their shift. I would like to believe you, but I have met too many muscle flexing, power trippin' cops to believe you. When the local SWAT/CERT teams show up in an urban setting in full woodland camo wearing face paint it does nothing to ease the Us against them tension. Face paint indeed. If they knew they were acting honorably they wouldn't need to disguise themselves.

I've never seen anyone but a sniper wear face paint, but then I don't know what goes on everywhere. In the Army we never wore face paint to disguise ourselves, but to camouflage ourselves.

Jeff, the big question here is what have you done to change the system? Have you used your position as a LEO to try to change the law?

Go over to TFL and do a search on my posts there. You will find a couple long threads where I have advocated ending the WOD. As for acting in my capacity as a police officer to lobby on any law, it is illegal. There are laws that restrict what public employees can do in that respect. I have lobbied my representatives plenty as a private citizen.

Have you talked with your superiors about any over zealous ofiicers on your force?

Not on my present department, we haven't had that problem. I did promise to resign if they hired a bad officer from another department because I wouldn't be associated with him.

Have you explained to your superiors that late night no knock raids can be dangerous to law abiding citizens?

We don't do no knock raids. I am not aware of any judge that has ever authorized one. There are a lot of factors that go into when a search warrant is served. 99% of the warrants we serve are served in broad daylight or the early evening hours by uniformed officers who knock on the door, present the warrant and then enter. The other 1% are served when there is a great likelihood that there will be resistance or there is a good chance that evidence will be destroyed. Those are usually served at the time of day when the occupants of the house are least likely to be alert and ready to resist or destroy evidence. The only time in 22 years in this county I can ever remember anyone being shot was during an attempt to arrest an armed, barricaded suspect who refused to come out. After hours of negotiation and tear gas was introduced, the SRT went in to get him and he fired on them from the bathroom. This was in the early evening hours.

Since the advent of SWAT teams there have been fewer injuries and deaths of everyone, officers, suspects and innocent citizens then before.

So until then, Fathers will answer doors broken down in the middle of the night with guns in their hands. And I don't think glory is what they are thinkin about when they are standing at the top of the stairs in their underwear.

Glory is what they are thinkin about when they post on internet forums though.

Jeff

The Amigo
June 18, 2007, 09:59 PM
When will the cop bashing ever stop? do dahhh do dahhhhhh:rolleyes:

BullfrogKen
June 18, 2007, 10:19 PM
I've gotta wonder here . . .


Has ANYONE here ever lived through a housefire? Cops and criminals aren't the ONLY guys who might bust down the door to your home.


I suggest we start another thread about killing firefighters and helpful neighbors.

Someone can pipe in about how they'll never have a fire at their house . . . another can discuss how firefighters cause more damage to the house fighting the fire than the fires themselves (which insurance companies have found is often the case) . . . Jeff can suggest how the answer is smoke detectors and a fire monitoring system to give one time . . . We can then all call Jeff a statist, muscle flexing wannabe hero for suggesting only he can save us from a fire . . .


Of all the reasons we might find ourselves faced with a "home invasion", someone saving our family from a fire is the most likely. So, what is everyone's plan for dealing with the fireman crashing through the door?

Sindawe
June 18, 2007, 10:29 PM
BullfrogKen, the problem with your premise is that firemen usually arrive on scene with all lights flashing and sirens wailing. Conditions that home invading criminals and cops doing a "dynamic entry" usually don't want around.

So a home fire is gonna draw all kinds of attention and wake up the neighborhood. Including those who's house is on fire.

Wheeler44
June 18, 2007, 10:35 PM
Jeff, here is a link to the updated story. http://www.columbian.com/news/localNews/06182007news155206.cfm
I'm not sure how to access the archived story. I'll update you as soon as I can. The question is what can a fellow do?. If he is a law abiding guy and the door comes down in the middle of the night he has to assume it is bad guys.

BullfrogKen
June 18, 2007, 10:37 PM
Sindawe said: So a home fire is gonna draw all kinds of attention and wake up the neighborhood. Including those who's house is on fire.

It is huh? After the fire's out, sure it will.

If fire were something that got a homeowners attention so easily, we'd have a hell of a lot fewer deaths and injuries from those who in fact did sleep through it.


Most communities have volunteer fire departments. Those guys will sometimes get the call and respond right to the dwelling if they're close enough. They'll arrive before the firetrucks. When my parent's house caught on fire, a neighbor passing by acted long before any fire department got there.

Elza
June 18, 2007, 10:48 PM
You know Ken, my father was a city firefighter. Let me enlighten you on a few things.

Firemen don’t tear down doors with a battering ram. They have tools that will pop just about any door open. If it takes them an extra second or two and they make a lot of noise doing it, it doesn’t matter. They don’t depend upon the element of surprise. If they do use a ram it is because the normal tools have failed.

They wear bright, reflective turnout gear, not ninja PJ’s or camos.

They run and stomp all the way to the house. They don’t sneak up to it.

They arrive in front of the house in a great big red (sometimes yellow or white) truck. They do not park out of sight and slither toward the house.

They arrive with sirens and red lights. In my town they used Class Q Federal sirens with a claimed range of 7 miles.

Firemen don’t kill the occupants they rescue them.

Is it just me or is there a difference here?

littledoc
June 18, 2007, 11:32 PM
Any person who points a gun to any uniformed and properly identified LEO in my books is a fool and nothing but a fool, whether in his house in the sea or in the air... Want to get shot real fast for free try it..

But that's not the case here my advise is if someone knocks at your door claiming there police ask for ID (under the door) and call the Police department to verify prior to opening your door.

If some one kicks your door in with no way for u to identify then self defense is in order.

If someone kicks your door in full body armor, helmet and mp5 yelling police and you want to play crazy commando its hard to sue the police when you are dead but then again its your life not mine

Very succinct and to the point, I think this sums up the whole thing rather nicely.

Alphazulu6
June 18, 2007, 11:39 PM
WOW. Good info. This police ID fraud is getting worse and worse. Only way to tell is to call the Law Enforcement Office in your are and verify their credentials. So sad.

Elza
June 18, 2007, 11:46 PM
Alphazulu6: WOW. Good info. This police ID fraud is getting worse and worse. Criminals are adaptive creatures. Like the old saying goes, "just because they're dumb don't think that they're stupid.

Telperion
June 19, 2007, 01:09 AM
Since the advent of SWAT teams there have been fewer injuries and deaths of everyone, officers, suspects and innocent citizens then before.

My turn to ask for evidence. Care to cite a study that shows this? There was a thread a while back where somebody asked for published evidence that SWAT raids were safer for the house occupants, and nothing ever came of it.

Jeff White
June 19, 2007, 01:59 AM
Wheeler44 you said;
I can tell you how many late night, wrong address police raids happened within 20 miles of my house this weekend. ONE.

And then I asked you for a link and the story wasn't exactly how you described it. From the news article:

Detectives were serving a search warrant, looking for Erik James Paulsen, 38, shortly after midnight at 3010 N.E. 162nd Ave.

I read the article twice and I can't find the part about the police being at the wrong address. Is this what you are taking to mean they were at the wrong address:

Paulsen was living in a camper on the property.

So what we have here are some some guys running a marijuana production facility;
A search of the home revealed evidence of a marijuana grow operation, including plants, lights, paraphernalia and a $2,500 in cash.

Who were already targeted for a home invasion robbery by some other criminal types.

The incident started when Vancouver police were contacted by members of the Portland police gang task force. They had information that Paulsen was being targeted for a home invasion robbery. Members of the Career Criminal Apprehension Team, the Neighborhood Response Team and the SWAT team waited for word that the potential burglars were under arrest before arriving at the home. The Portland police believed Paulsen was being targeted because he had drugs, guns and cash in his home.

I can tell you how many young fathers believing that they were defending their homes died during that raid. ONE.

Who did he think he was defending his home from?

The Vancouver authorities responded to the home shortly after midnight Saturday morning. They approached in a “stick formation” creating a line of officers. Lobdell was positioned near a window to the right of the front door.

Another officer pounded on the door and called out, “Police with a search warrant, we demand entry,” Chief Cook said. The officer then repeated the demand. The announcement was so loud, the officers standing by the back of the house could hear clearly.

So he grabbed up his gun and disengaged the safety:

The weapon Makarowsky had was a .40-caliber handgun, fully loaded with the safety off, “meaning it was ready to fire,” Cook said.

Looked out the window and saw:

Cook noted that Makarowsky was not asleep, but was talking on the phone, shortly before the shooting. The porch lights and indoor lights were on, Cook said. The officers were also clearly identifiable by their clothing. A sample was on display at the press conference: a black, long-sleeved T-shirt with the word “POLICE” in white letters down the arms. The officers were also wearing ballistic vests with their badges.

“He had a clear view of the officers,” Cook said.

So he wasn't rubbing the sleep from his eyes, and he had a clear view of the officers, who didn't break into the house and startle him.

Of course if it suits our purpose and furthers our agenda we can believe the victim's family:

http://www.columbian.com/news/localNews/06182007news155214.cfm

“Sean is not the kind of person who could ever shoot a person with a gun,” Oliver said. “He was smarter than that.”

Of course in February she didn't quite feel that way:

In February, Oliver had requested a restraining order from Clark County, saying the two had broken up after he threw her down a set of stairs and that Makarowsky was an unpredictable drug addict who kept a shotgun, two pistols and multiple knives at his house and had threatened to kill her.

Funny how just a few months ago he was an unpredictable drug addict who kept a shotgun, two pistols and multiple knives and threatened to kill her.

Oliver and Makarowsky, both 24, had broken up last fall and the two had not spoken for several months.

Isn't it funny how a death will make a person think only the best of the deceased. I wonder how she felt about him before he died?

In the domestic violence complaint Oliver filed in February, she said she believed Makarowsky would continue stalking and threatening her until their daughter became an adult. She was hiding from him, she said at the time.

So this guy was bad enough the mother of his child was in hiding from him, but it's absolutely impossible to think he might have actually brandished the weapon at the officers?

Ok.

You know, I'm perfectly ready to admit that there have been mistakes made in the past. But I'm having a real hard time believing that this case is a flargant abuse of police power.

Jeff

ETCss Phil McCrackin
June 19, 2007, 02:02 AM
Ya know, it never ceases to amaze me how many guys are roaming the web with anti-cop rhetoric so vicious that it would seem right at home coming from a villain on a Dirty Harry movie. Are there arrogant, jerk cops out there? Sure. Those are the guys who will hand out endless hassles because they are, in fact, a "punk with a badge and a gun". But, by that same token, how many citizens out there are needlessly confrontational and suffer from the "how DARE you ask if I have been drinking!!??" syndrome. (at 0300 Saturday night 3 blocks from a bar surrounded by the smell of booze...)

So.. I believe that:

1. You (not me, or him, or anyone else) gotta do what you gotta do to protect what you cherish. If that means that you shoot an UC narcotics officer assisting in a mistaken warrant serve, then thats the epitome of the word tragedy. But since a criminal home invasion is probably more likely than the aforementioned cops-in-error, a "frosty" offense is the definitely the more appropriate non-hindsight defense.

2. Most of the short or no notice entries used by law enforcement, are both an unfortunate symptom of modern lawlessness, and an important lifesaving tool. Everyone thinks that if SWAT comes rolling into your house at 0330 then someone's gonna die, but in fact, you gotta TRY to get shot by professional officers. Thats why the training is so difficult.

Anyway, I feel a certain gloom when I read from those who so rabidly decry law enforcement that they seem hateful. I've got cops in the family and, as soon as my 20 in Uncle Sams Canoe Club is up, I hope to join their ranks in my hometown. I know that the cops I have met are brave, good people, and none of them deserve the venom so frequently spat at them. On the other hand, however, I have never been wronged by LEO's and I also think that a bit of "hey, what the heck?" is an important element of society.

I honestly tried to keep this on-topic, so excuse the brief departure.:o

Don Gwinn
June 19, 2007, 02:16 AM
. . . . and with that, I think we've said all that's going to get said on the actual topic, here. Truth be told, this was a cop-bashing thread a long time ago, which then transmogrified into a cops vs. citizens thread. THR was never intended to be an arena for battles between police and the citizens they serve.

If you think of something that hasn't been said in this thread--twice--please send a PM.

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