Be a sheepdog!

I've always wanted some low-key way for permit holders to identify each others. And I'm a big fan of David Grossman's "On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs" essay.

So when I found these, I ordered four dozen, announced them on the local TwinCitiesCarry.com forum (http://www.TwinCitiesCarry.com/forum/"), and they sold out in a day!

Would you be interested in buying one or more of these? If there's sufficient demand, I'll make a big order and start selling.

One proviso: I'd really, really like these to be worn by card-carrying, gun-carrying permit holders.

I figure they would cost $2 each, plus USPS shipping per order as follows:
1-4 pins: $1.25
5-8: $1.50
9-13: $1.75
14-17: $2.00
18-19: $2.25
20+: Free shipping

Let me know what you think by voting in the public poll above. Voting isn't a commitment, of course, just a straw poll to gauge interest.

Thanks!

Andrew


Have you read Dave Grossman's ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS (http://www.twincitiescarry.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5167)?

Wish you had a secret handshake with other permit holders?

Need to add some jewelry to your wardrobe? :)

http://www.mngun.com/post/sheepdog.jpg
Pin, with a quarter to show scale

http://www.mngun.com/post/sheepdog2.jpg
Close up

I would like to see this nadge sized down to a Quarter, people would out of curiousity get close to read it. I would also feel like a schmuck wearing something that big.

Grossman's an idiot. I suppose the pins are neat if you're a fan of dogs. As some sort of badge, they're a really bad idea. And a badge like that COULD come back to bite you in court if someone finds out you were wearing it as a way of saying you're a big tough protector of "the sheep."

WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' BADGES!

You left out "None" as a choice.

I prefer "shepherd." How'bout a shepherd's crook pin?

Well honestly if I could CCW I would not want to advertise it ever not even to other CCW'ers. Just my opinion. However for the pin it is to large you want something smaller.

Can you make one that will fit in a CCW badge, like this?

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=59493

I can't imagine why one would want a way to be identified by others as carrying unless one was desperately in need of validation from strangers.

Cosmoline just wondering why you say Colonel Grossman is an idiot?

None for me, thanks... I don't carry a gun for the betterment or protection of sheep.

Besides... wolves have to eat too. :evil:


J.C.

The sheep dog is a great great idea , loyal, friendly, and fearless. Mine has taken on a 1500 lb cow moose ( much to my chagrin ) . And he likes to fish .

I'm very careful what I wear that shows gun-related themes. I like the concept of the pin, but I wouldn't wear it. When I was in the military, I wore my marksmanship badges proudly (except for the one year in the Corps that I shot Sharpshooter. :p ) I was always embarrassed by that one. But, I got expert the next year, so it wasn't all bad.

As a LEO, I don't advocate the issuance or wearing of marksmanship badges for my PD. Our officers don't wear those pins. It can set the wrong tone when something happens and you're in court for that civil trail.

So, I follow through on that and try not to wear too many indicators of my chosen life style- i.e. firearms. Defense attorneys are a smart breed of bird- they can turn anything against you. My personal belief is to fly under the radar as much as possible. But, I do wear my "Federal- Heavy Hitter" ball cap. Most people don't even realize what it stands for.

BTW- I have attended three Grossman lectures. He says a lot of the right things. I'll admit he presents a simplistic concept, but he voices a lot of good things. His LEO series are very good. His books, put in the right frame, have some very valid thoughts. My 2 cents.

How about a pin that says something like...

"To hell with the sheepdogs!! To arms Sheep!! To arms!!"

:p

If the sheep had good sense, they'd attack the shepherds, since the shepherds "hire" the sheepdogs for the sole purpose of keeping the wolves from doing to the sheep what the shepherd is also planning to do to 'em... And the wolves, seeing that, would probably seek easier prey.


Sorry, but when it comes down to it, it really doesn't matter who's dinner you end up as; shepherd or wolf.

Me, I'm just not gonna be on the menu at all, for anybody.

J.C.

Nope, not for me, thanks.

Cosmoline just wondering why you say Colonel Grossman is an idiot?

I don't want to get the thread sidetracked too much. There are dozens of other threads on his so-called "science" of "killology." It's a bunch of garbage, based on slush from SLA Marshall and his ilk--most of which has been debunked by real scientists since then. Grossman's notion that human beings need his special training to kill is a bunch of hogwash. Any one of us can kill. I know a meek little Korean guy who put six rounds into a teenager who was trying to mug him. I know of a pastor out in the valley who shot two men in his church with a .44. We shoot tens of thousands of each other every year. We don't kill more because of the legal and ethical consequences involved. But each one of us is a killer ape. How the devil does that idiot Grossman think we survived so long with such thin skin in a universe of tooth and claw? Why do 1,000 lb. brown bears run away from me in terror?

Just as his assertion that we are "sheep" "sheepdog" or "wolf" is a bunch of hogwash. The cop on the beat is not a "sheepdog" protecting me from "wolves." We are all just citizens of the same republic, all human men. He's not a different "breed" from me.

Well said, Cosmo, although I wouldn't care to try and chase off a 1000lb bear.
Intrinsically, we're all killers - just takes the right circumstances.
Having said that, I don't see a need for some of y'all to be harshin' on Andy - he asked a fair and simple question. No need to tee off on the boy.

Biker

I wish they would chase me. I keep buying a tag every year, and it's like they know I have it. The most I've ever seen of a brown bear in the woods is his big fuzzy behind running off at top speed.

I'm not trying to flame anyone, but I think the point against this whole badges nonsense needs to be made strong and clear. It really is a bad idea, and it really could cause you problems if you shoot someone in fuzzy circumstances. Besides, concealed means concealed.

I agree. Concealed means concealed.
However, no need to down a man asking a simple, innocent question.

I still don't want to be on the same mountain with a 1000 lb hungry bear.
Luck to you.

Biker

Besides, concealed means concealed.

Agree.

Personal Responsibility means get your own damn training to arm yourself with knowledge, and in the use of said knowledge.

Keep this knowledge Concealed , including keeping your damn mouth shut, how you dress and how you carry out your activities of daily living (ADLs)

IF...IF any tools are used in conjunction with this Knowledge and Training, such as hands, feet, sticks, knives, firearms...keep these concealed as well.


I suggest one of you girls decide who is going to get raped first while the other dials 911.

Exactly what I told told 2 anti-gunners scared to walk to their vehicles after a Theartre performance when they wanted myself and others to walk them out.

They pleaded, begged and finally got Theartre Security to walk them out and breaking rules in doing so.
One anti-gunner gal chose to become Pro Gun, and get educated, and CCW.

Screw 'em, less anti-gunners alive, less to mess with Politics, and less I and others have mess with in Preserving Freedom.

Let Evil have all 'em them anti-gunners I say...

Other CCW folks?

Hell I am going to run as fast as I can the other direction if I see a CCW Badge or any other ID method!

In fact I have left such a situation just recently when Wanna Be Chest Thumpers showed up with CCW badges!!

I agree with the others that said it. I'm responsible for my own protection, just like every individual is. I don't expect anyone to be my sheepdog, and I sure don't want to be anyone else's.

Not to say I wouldn't help someone out if they were stuck in a bad situation, that's just being a human being, but I sure don't see it is my responsibility because I carry a gun to protect myself. Folks want protection, they need to get it for themselves.

Personally, I'd rather wear a peace sign or a dove.

Well said Cosmoline. Well said Steve.

I agree that concealed means concealed , and I would love to give a bunch of pins to GFWs. This pin has the potential of becoming a a major sporting event.

And I like the pin.

I'd buy one but it'd clash with my CCW badge, which I pin prominently on my 550 tac vest. :D

Put me down for 0

I'll take 4.

I don't know I feel like in the fight for ccw I do a fair share of "concealed carry holders just want to protect themselves, they're not trying to play police" but when we start having ccw holders saying they're protecting others that argument becomes a little tougher. I can't say I'm a big fan of the "sheepdog" thing.

Hmmm, my choice wasn't in the poll, so I guess that I can't vote.

"To hell with the sheepdogs!! To arms Sheep!! To arms!!"

+1 :D

I also agree with what Cosmoline said about Grossman....the Army must be so embarrassed...

I agree it's foolhardy to advertise that you are carrying.

Jorg, That's a badge I would pay for; it's hillarious!

Sorry, I just don't feel comfortable with the whole idea.

Bad idea. Using Grossman's ideology, even worse. I've read "On Combat" and "On Killing", and while there's some useful stuff there, he falls well to the wrong side of the fence when it comes to actually holding people responsible for their actions. The sheepdog idea implies different "classes" of people, and the idea that "some are more equal than others." No thanks.

One armed sheep here that don't need a pin. :scrutiny:

For some reason, the Sam Sheepdog and Ralph Wolf cartoons come to mind.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e3/Sam_and_Ralph_choke.png

First of all, Like Cosmo and others I think it's a very bad idea.

Second of all, and perhaps more importantly, I think if I wore that people would think I was.. I don't know, into dog shows or something. And I REALLY can't have that !

I agree that people might think I was into dog shows.


I am not.

Back to the drawing board.

Andrew, I guess I can understand the thought behind the pin. It would be a way for us all to know who our buddies are in a crowd. But, I think it's unwise.

It wouldn't be long before the antis found out what they meant. All you need is for some hysterical, Bradyite-Moron-Million-Mom-Maddmother to start ranting on you, when she sees you wearing your pin at the mall. Then, some of your neighbors will start forbidding their kids to play with your kids. I actually have an idiot-anti neighbor (who doesn't know I have guns), who told me he wouldn't let his kids play at the house of anyone who owned a gun(s). As we all know, guns have majical properties, and go off by themselves, indescriminately killing hundreds of children every week. It just seems like asking for trouble.

Of course, I live in NJ, so it might not be as bad where you live. Still, I don't think it's wise to advertise.

Golly -- that was not the reaction I expected.

Hell I am going to run as fast as I can the other direction if I see a CCW Badge or any other ID method!

In fact I have left such a situation just recently when Wanna Be Chest Thumpers showed up with CCW badges!!
A doggy pin isn't a "badge," any more than a THR hat or shirt. Do you run when you see a THR hat?

(In fact, I tried to get a THR pin off the ground, but nothing ever came of it: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=41638#post1781867 )


The dog is, I think, a very low-key recognition sign. I'm not worried that "word is going to get out."

If you don't like the sheepdog idea, I completely understand and respect that. Don't order one. :)

If you don't like the sheepdog idea, I completely understand and respect that. Don't order one. :)

Okay. :)

Seriously, it strikes me as coming a little too close to advertising something that, by definition, isn't supposed to be advertised. YM obviously Vs, and that's fine.

My own misgivings are also related to my lack of enthusiasm for Grossman's analogy in general. Unless I'm misinterpreting him wildly, his "sheepdogs" are sworn military and police, full stop. I've never cared for that view, with its implied (and deeply authoritarian) assumption that each of us is either a soldier/cop, a criminal, or an essentially mindless herd animal.

I can't find the citation now, so take this with the appropriate dose of salt, but as far as I know Col. Grossman isn't all that keen on civilian firearms ownership in general.

On the other hand, I'd be just fine with, say, a THR ballcap. In fact, I'd buy at least two.

Can I get one with a beagle?

I am not a Wolf--I don't prey on the helpless
I am not a sheep--I think,act, and reason for myself
I am not a sheepdog--I have NO obligation to defend those who will not defend themselves.
So what am I in your little scheme?
And while you're at it I just want to be left the hell alone.

Jefferson

'Concealed means concealed' and 'advertising that you're carrying' - really, not so much in this case. No one outside of some Internet commandos is going to have the faintest clue what that little pin means.

Worse than bragging that you're carrying, it's ego masturbation. You're one of the few, the elite, the, uh, dudes who took an eight-hour class and passed a frighteningly easy shooting test. Oooh-rah or whatever, I guess.

The notion that gun owners - or concealed carrier - are some breed above and apart from the average person is just insultingly stupid to everyone involved, 'sheep' or 'sheepdog.'

this is my every day hat and I will buy one for it and be damned who knows I carry

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y117/TnRebel/?action=view&current=IM000580.jpg

I agree with those who stress that CHL holders are not off duty LEOs, and should not try to act as such. I almost have the feeling that some are looking for an excuse to draw their guns, and be a hero.

It would be pretty easy for a prosecutor or lawyer to paint you as one who was looking for trouble if you make the point that you are a sheepdog. You have no duty, and in many instances should not try, to protect others. Of course the circumstances greatly influence the decision to intervene. In some cases you would not really know who the BG is. Also you are responsible if your intervention results in others getting shot.

I also do not condone the sheepdog concept. Just be who and what you are, and don't try to be a hero. Do what seems proper under the circumstance. Personally I think the sheepdog thinking is somewhat pompous, and makes one want to be the knight in shining armor, and superior to those you see as sheep.

Regards,
Jerry

Linky no worky.

No thanks.

Is just today, or is everyone on this board getting grouchy? Absolutely ridiculous.

Personally I think the sheepdog thinking is somewhat pompous, and makes one want to be the knight in shining armor, and superior to those you see as sheep.

You don't have to agree with Grossman, but you might want to read before passing judgment.

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

...

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking.

When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers.

In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers -- athletes, business people and parents -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

Here's the whole thing:

http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/onsheepwolvesandsheepdogs.html

JerryM wrote:
I agree with those who stress that CHL holders are not off duty LEOs, and should not try to act as such. I almost have the feeling that some are looking for an excuse to draw their guns, and be a hero.

Well said!

--

I respectfully disagree with Mr. Grossman.
I am not a sheep dog, and do not want to be called one.

My take is, there are Responsible Persons, Ladies, Men, young, old, whole of health and physically limited.

These persons may be Veterans, Active Duty in the Military. They may be retired LEO, or Active LEO.
They may be single ladies, single moms, the widow.
The young man with a birth defect that has to use power assist chairs, or the elderly widower using a cane.

Housewives, Single Professional Ladies, Nurses, Rad Techs, Secretaries, Whores, Preacher's Wives, Teachers, and any and all job descriptions.

Men, from Nurses, to Doctors to plumbers, to...


There is code these people live, it comes from deep within them.
NOTHING on the exterior can change the deep within.

A fireman does not need a badge, or uniform to run TO the fire...
LEO does not need a uniform, badge, gun to run TOWARD gunfire...
Military person does not need rank, uniform, a "job description" ,... be they active, retired, on vacation to run toward Evil.

There is a look in the eye, that runs from the depth of their very being.
A set of jaw, a very slight nod of the head that comes from this depth as well.

Titles don't mean spit to me.

One either has it, or they don't.

Not all "events" are solved by a gun.

One does know another is a housewife that knows CPR and steps up to the plate, until she says she does.
One does not know that lady in jeans and T shirt is Doctor until she ID's herself.
One does not know that guy in cowboy boots and khaki britches is a Marine, now a Firefighter visiting from out of town, until he ID's himself, and he steps up to the plate.

That guy in jeans, tennis shoes, retired Army, now a LEO, with a cute grandkid, his daughter, his wife, and son around a table in a restaurant from out of town, are to meet another, they have never met.
The eyes meet, the jaw sets, a slight nod, and these two KNOW they are of like kind, and a seat is offered.

I was not wearing a CCW badge, and Jeff was not wearing a uniform, or any kind of badge when we met.
WE Knew!!

Ditto with Preacherman, and too many others I have met on this board.

FWIW, Too many folks I have met on this board , one did not know they were CCW-ing, and we don't know what guns were being carried, how many, or how many reloads - if any.
Honest? We don't care what gun, what ammo, or how many rounds.

Heck, if in a setting where a gun is not allowed, so what? It ain't the gun, it is the mindset. Something will work, if need be.

Heck "we" look like a bunch at a family re-union, old school chums, co-workers on a business meeting, heck I being a guy, look like a uncle, brother, or "sorta old to with a girl that young".

Dead Serious when I say I have left the area when folks with CCW Badges showed up...
When Wannabe's showed up talking and carrying themselves as they do.

I have said "no thank" you to learning to shoot, learning to shoot a shotgun, going hunting, and even just being invited to get a cup of coffee to these folks.

WE have sat down at a restaurant, and about to order , and a CCW Badge and buds enter.
I have grabbed a 3 year old and "we are leaving" and we packed up and went elsewhere to eat.

WE have stayed when we knew the gang-bangers were packing, that entered while in the midst of eating.
Eyes meet, and there is an "understanding" and the gang- bangers left.

If we just absolutely have to have an animal assigned to us as CCW'ers, I want.... a porcupine.

That's right, something prickly, that has no interest in sheep or wolves, and just doesn't want to be fu... uh... bothered. :D

I've done my bit wearing a badge, and I have no need or desire to ever do it again. The rest of the world can either get it's collective head out of it's backside, or suffer the consequences. It's all the same to me.
One way or the other, I'll take no further part in screwing up Natural Selection or Prof. Darwin's plans/rules.

And no, Lew, I'm not "getting" grouchy... Been that way for quite a long time now. :p:evil::D



J.C.

Jamie C.,
Great Post!


I always liked the Honey Badger, then again I read Ruark.

Porcupine works...

Granted I often wore a bandanna with the Gadsden Flag back in the day...

I'm glad to read that this whole concept is not favored by other folks on this board.

Its creepy.

I don't want any of those pins.

I walk my two Shelties almost every evening so no thanks, I don't need a pin.:D

Sorry, it a real dumb idea. Rates right up there with a CCW badge. Hey, if someone can buck on it? Essex

I'm guessing the guy who came up with that pin has never been in a situation where death by another's hand was a real possibility.

I had no idea I was such a creepy, dumb poseur cop wannabe.

I guess I should go back and tell all of my carry students and the more than 50 carry instructors that I've certified what a jerk I am.

If you can't tell the difference between a carry badge (and yes, Virginia, I do make a point of advising against those in my carry classes) and a little doggy pin, I guess I can't help you.

It looks like 19 people would like to order at least 75 pins. If you are not among them, that's fine. But the insults and innuendo are certainly not taking the High Road.

I had no idea I was such a creepy, dumb poseur cop wannabe.
*snip*
But the insults and innuendo are certainly not taking the High Road.
Perhaps I've missed it, but I didn't notice anyone insulting you, just criticizing the idea and I think that is quite acceptable. Remember that when we fight to get concealed carry rights one of the big things the anti's always bring up is someone who wants to be a vigilante or play police officer. That very well may not be your goal, but when you're talking about being the sheepdog protecting the flock it sure sends that message and it makes our fight for ccw in places like IL and WI harder.

Besides, concealed means concealed

that summs up my opinion on the matter.

As a member of TwinCitiesCarry.com, I think the impetus here is to be able for us to identify each other at our local get togethers without blatantly advertising that we are carrying. Many of us on that forum know of each other through the forum, but many of us have never actually met each other. Most of us on that forum are much against the CCW badges, many are even against open carry, even though it's legal in MN with a Permit to Carry. It's kind of like, "I'm one of the good guys" type deal and makes it easy for us to identify each other as part of "the group" without actually coming out and saying so in a crowded restaurant/meeting place, etc.

I had no idea I was such a creepy, dumb poseur cop wannabe.

Andrew, don't take the comments here personally. No one has said anything concerning you, only the "sheepdog" concept it's self. ( Which didn't originate with you. )

I understand if you're upset that the thread has turned into a conversation/commentary on the subject, rather than simply answering "Who wants one?", but that's how things tend to go when you ask a question on a particular subject. *shrug*

Oh, and if you'll notice, I've not spoke much on other people, concerning "being a sheepdog", only about myself, and how I feel about it.

Anyway, I think that if you're taking offense at the comments here, you're doing just that; TAKING offense. 'Cause I've not seen any intentionally offered toward you personally.

Oh, and by the way... If you come across a nice, quarter-sized porcupine pin, give me a PM... I wouldn't mind having one. Not to announce my CCW status, mind you, only my attitude/demeanor. ;)



J.C

I had no idea I was such a creepy, dumb poseur cop wannabe.


You think YOU'RE the skunk at the picnic, try advocating CCW for out-of-jurisdiction and retired LEO's and watch 'em go into apoplexy! :rolleyes::evil::evil::evil:

Concealed means concealed.

Or you could just get a belt buckle like one of these:

http://www.buckleshop.com/31413_small.jpghttp://www.buckleshop.com/31410_small.jpghttp://www.buckleshop.com/cj1066e_small.jpg

http://www.buckleshop.com/guns_police_and_2nd_amendment_belt_buckles.htm

The belt buckle that doesn't just announce that you have horrible style, it literally assaults everyone in the room with it.

Got any Roadrunner pins?
BEEP BEEP!

Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! I just open carry.

I have to be honest with you - the whole "sheepdog, sheep, wolf" thing seems pretty puerile and somplistic to me.

I have a complex set of responsibilites to my family security, spiritual, moral, financial, etc. Each responsibility is associated with a different risk level. I have to balance those risks and respoonsibilites as best I can.

For example, in a pure sheepdog mentality, I should probably carry at work, regardless of the the company policy. In fact, I adhere to the company policy ("no guns on company property") due to my financial responsibilities to my family. I have to balance the security risk of not having a gun at work and needing one versus the risk of having one at work and getting fired. There is no way to decrease both the security ("

You shouldn't be a sheep dog, that's not what a CCW is for. Cops are the sheepdogs, who look after the herd and direct it according to the rancher's command (that's the Gov).

Instead you should view yourself as a sheep with .357 teeth, and a mind of your own ;)

I have to be honest with you - the whole "sheepdog, sheep, wolf" thing seems pretty puerile and somplistic to me.

Yep. I'm all for low-key ways to promote firearms, but I'm leery of approaches with too much machismo. If I'm ever in court explaining a defensive use of firearms, the last thing I want is to find myself explaining what I really meant by calling myself a "sheepdog"...

--Len.

My reply was truncated - here's the whole reply:

I have to be honest with you - the whole "sheepdog, sheep, wolf" thing seems pretty puerile and simplistic to me.

I have a complex set of responsibilities to my family security, spiritual, moral, financial, etc. Each responsibility is associated with a different risk level. I have to balance those risks and responsibilities as best I can.

For example, in a pure sheepdog mentality, I should probably carry at work, regardless of the the company policy. In fact, I adhere to the company policy ("no guns on company property") due to my financial responsibilities to my family. I have to balance the security risk of not having a gun at work and needing one versus the risk of having one at work and getting fired. There is no way to decrease both the security ("sheepdog") and financial ("employment").


For me, that means that I make a set of complex decisions (some of them wrong :) ). The simple "sheep, sheepdog, wolf" thinking doesn't come close to capturing that complexity.

To be honest, even if we work with the analogy, the button is pretty lame. Putting that button on due to your (self-qualified) weapon expertise is like saying "I'm a sheepdog because I can bite really good!"

Go to a sheepdog trial sometime. Watch the sheepdog, then tell me that you can put on that button without insulting sheepdogs. :)

Sheepdogs provide security for the herd through an astonishingly complex set of behaviors. The "biting fast and accurately" is only one of those skills.

To follow the analogy, we do have trained sheepdogs - they carry badges and /or wear uniforms - than G-d for them. Are they perfect? No. Are they a heck of a lot better at guarding the herd than you are? Almost certainly. If you want better herd security, recruit more of them, and pay them better.

That button strikes me as a wrongful death attorney's dream. How long will it take him to demonstrate the difference between you and a trained sheepdog?

Mike

Nothing new to say here.

If you don't like the idea you don't have to buy one. Remember that we all agreed to keep the discussions on The High Road civil and to adddress the argument and not attack the individual.