Question on +P+ ammo

[leadcounsel]

Can my modern CZ, Glock, Springfield handguns safely function on +P+ or +P ammo?

What is it about this ammo designator that makes it more potent?

[FerFAL]

Yes, all those guns can take +P ( plus pressure) ammo. +P+ is not SAAMI regulated, so it’s kind of “ use at your own discretion”, best thing to do is to stick to quality brands with +P+ ammo.
You shouldn’t worry about a modern, quality made handgun blowing up because of +P ammo, its’ just that your gun will wear out faster if you use these hot loads on regular basis.

FerFAL

[GRIZ22]

+P+ is not SAAMI regulated, so it’s kind of “ use at your own discretion”

This is correct no industry standard for +P+. Before you decide +P or +P+ is for you look at some of the ballistics tables. I'm not a big fan of +P or +P+ in semi autos. You really don't gain a lot, 100-150 fps or so, in a round that's already travelling 1100-1200 fps (for 9mm). I saw the CCI/Speer chart and the penetration and expansion of their +P and +P+ wasn't a heck of a lot more (if any) than standard pressure ammo.

[Tomcat47]

I have always had the opinion, If I want to carry a .38 special I will buy .38 special ammo. If I want a .357 magnum I will buy a .357 magnum and .357 ammo...I will not keep my .38 and in a futile attempt to make it a .357 buy +P ammo.

I have never been fond of the +P variants. As stated above wear & tear are increased and in some guns it is forbidden. I have seen older .38 Rossi and the like with a messed up cylinder due to +P ammo when the firearm came with instructions....do not use +P ammo! Rugers, Smiths, Colts and the like will take them...but why? I even seen a Jennings .22 bust a slide using CCI Stingers, which in reality is a +P .22

I would stay away from them.

[Lone_Gunman]

I am not sure that I would conclude that +P is bad based on experience with junky guns like Rossi and Jennings.

[FerFAL]

Not on regular basis, but I don’t see anything wrong in keeping +P or +P+ for self defense if it works reliably in your gun. Let’s just say it, recoil isn’t that different, and the muzzle flash blinding you… try shooting it in the dark yourself and make up your own mind, if its as blinding as some say. I shot my 357 SIG in the dark, which is a respectable flamethrower and I wasn’t blinded, not at all.

FerFAL

[alucard0822]

often times, especially in 9mm and 45acp the +P+ designation denotes ammo for use in sub machine guns. It is true most of the time there is a saami spec for +p, and +p+ is a spec somewhere in excess of that, but for use in machine guns where 124gr 9mm may reach 1400 fps, the powder loading and if present the hollow point cavity is optimised to this velocity/barell length, sometimes it will be marked 9mm +P** or 9mm C, This is not always the case, as the 147gr win rangers +p+ are just an above spec loading,

[Tomcat47]

I agree LoneGunman.... I would not come to that conclusion either. I still see no real purpose for loading ammo hot for the small arms situation. That was my point.

There is only one firearm to my knowedge that lets you load ammo HOT! or allows a compressed charge and that is a single shot Thompson Contender.

And you would not need to worry about wear and tear there. Quality top name firearms will no doubt take the +P charge. My Ruger Security Six has seen many .38 +P, but it is also a .357 Magnum. My Taurus 85 has seen the same, but I merely do not like them. what you gain is ballistically insignificant!

[HankB]

The maximum average pressure for 9mm P is 35,000 PSI, per SAAMI. For "+P" loads, it's 38,500 PSI.

There is no industry standard for "+P+" ammo, but some 9mm Parabellum ammo loaded by the major manufacturers has a warning sticker on the box indicating the ammo was loaded to 40,000 C.U.P.

There's no exact formula to convert from C.U.P. to P.S.I., but I would guess that 40,000 C.U.P. is probably in the neighborhood of 42,000 - 44,000 P.S.I.

[dairycreek]

If the purpose of using +P (or +P+) ammo is to achieve increased velocity then, by all means, beware:what: I have done a lot of personal research using 9mm +P stuff and the increased velocity may or may not happen!

Also, there is a lot of stuff in the net about this as well. It seems as if that the increased velocity may occur in one gun but not another. However, the increased pressure takes place in every gun along with the increased wear that goes along with increased pressure.

So, to be sure, one should check out the effect (increased velocity) of using +P stuff in your gun of choice. You may not be getting what you have paid for.

[Checkman]

The 9mm 124 grain NATO FMJ load is at the +P+ level. It's hot stuff. My research states that the NATO load is rated at 42,000 psia (pounds per square inch, absolute). The Federal +P+ 115 grain JHP 9BP-LE averages a maximum pressure of 40,000 psia and the industry or SAAMi standard is 37,4000 psia. If anyone knows how to convert the psia to the copper units of pressure or cup please do so. I'm curious myself.

The NATO load has paper ballistics of 1,300 fps at the muzzle and the Federal +P+ 115 grain also has a muzzle velocity of 1,300 fps. It used to have a velocity of approximately 1,260, but Federal upped it in the nineties.

The Illinois State Police is credited with providing the momentum for the development of the +P+ load. The Illinois State Police was the first major police agency in the USA to go with a 9mm semi-auto pistol when it selected the S&W Model 39 in 1966. ISP initially issued the 124 grain FMJ load and the results were less then impressive. SO began the development of a hotter load over the 1970's and into the 80's. Federal and Winchester were the two developers of the hotter 9mm load. They basically had a contest.

Most of this information is from the Winter 1990 issue of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement. The article is titled Illinois State Police +P+ and was written by Ed Sanow. Yes that Ed Sanow.

I also got some of this info from Frank Barnes Cartridges of the World 10th Edition. Also see Federal's http://www.LE.ATK.com for further info.

I carry the Glock 19 and my department issues me the Federal load. I haven't had to use it on anybody (thank goodness). It does have more recoil then the standard 9mm load, but I've used it several times on reduced lighting shoots and I can't tell a difference between it's flash and the standard stuff. And I've compared them. The recoil is a little sharper in the GLock then in my Browning Hi-Power, but I don't think it's going to beat up my 19. I believe the 40 is much harder on handguns.

[Jim March]

+P+ in the 38Spl in particular can be big trouble. A lot of it is really re-labeled 357, or close enough as to make little difference.

In the 45LC plain ol' "+P" is trouble unless your gun is full-on 44Magnum-class.

In the rest, +P is general no problem and +P+ is a crapshoot.

[Blakenzy]

I think that the whole +P or +P+ argument just shows how inefective handguns in general really are. I mean, the desire to constantly up the performance of a round is indicative of a deeper problem: that round just doesn't cut it, or at least it is not "optimal". You don't have the same issues with long guns intended for defence. I haven't seen +P marked rifle ammo or 12Ga shells on the shelf. That should give an important message: No matter what you do to your handgun, it is sub-par. Don't let that fact surprise you during a serious event.

[Checkman]

Handguns are a tradeoff. You get a (relatively) concealable weapon that is useful at close range, but you give up power and the greater accuracy of a rifle or shotgun. This is nothing new. Nevertheless the constant tweaking of handgun ammo has lead to more powerful rounds like the 357 mag and the 40 S&W. Handguns are more potent now then they used to be thanks to the tweaking.

[McCall911]

For me: 9mm +P okay, 9mm +P+ not okay due to the excessive pressure.

If I wanted the dubious comfort of a bit extra velocity, I'd switch to a .357 Sig, which would probably edge out the 9mm +P+.

[bpisler]

If i can shoot them well and the pistol and
or revolver can handle the +P's that what's
what i'll use.

[leadcounsel]

Well, in all fairness, longgun ammo is CONSTANTLY tweeked to improve performance as well.

[Tomcat47]

Ahh! but Long guns and the like, Ruger No.1's and Thompson Center Contenders, Encores, and other single shot rifles can handle higher pressures with ease. Even the trusty Marlin .30-.30 can handle some pretty hot stuff, however the reason for that to be BAD is tubular magazine detonation, (shell to shell) thus NO pointed bullets. However the accelerator version of ammo had special hardened primers to allow it. and it left the muzzle at 3500 fps and then accelerated.

Its not really apples to apples when considering rifle ammo. T/C put out there on reloading data for their produts and almost all of the loads were compressed charges.

[Checkman]

True very true. Today's 30-30 is a far cry from the round that was introduced in the 1890's for example. God bless Buffalo Bore ammo and all the ammo (rifle and handgun) that it has "tweaked".

[Jim Keenan]

The original reason for +P+ in .38 Special was purely political. It was/is loaded to near .357 Magnum specs and is marked to be used only in revolvers made for .357. But many civil rights groups protested the use of the "over-powered" .357 Magnum by police.

So the .38 Special +P+ gives the same result except that the police public relations guy can say, "The friendly River City police would never use the over-powered, evil, monstrous .357 Magnum; we use the same old .38 Special that has been in service since 1935, blah, blah..."

Jim

[Checkman]

Okay one more reply and I'm out of here. My dad's department issued the +P+ 38 in the seventies. They carried the Model 28 and switched to the Model 65 in 78. I have a couple hundred rounds of the stuff. Winchester 110 grain semi-jacketd hollow point. It's a decently accurate round and the chrono shows it darn near equal to the 110 grain .357 magnum load.

You absolutely do not want to shoot this particular load in a 38 revolver. :what:

[roscoe]

it left the muzzle at 3500 fps and then accelerated
Er - what?

[Tomcat47]

Hi Roscoe...

havent heard of accelerator ammo? You can still get it also. It was intended to be a varmint round for a .30-.30 lever gun. It uses a .30-.30 casing with a .223 bullit in a .30 caliber teflon sabot ( kinda like a muzzle loader ) I believe my memory serves me well, they put it out in .30-.30 ,.30-06, .308

As it left the muzzle it dropped teflon sabot and the .223 accelerated due to ballistic coefficient of the smaller bullet.

I shot these a LOT in my 336, they perform very well. I used it for coyotes,
groundhogs, and other varmints. I took a groundhog at about 225 yards.
I also did take a whitetail with it at about 110 yards. It dropped like a rock due to a well placed neck shot, but I do not recomend it for whitetail.

Remington still list it on there website. www.remington.com
type accelerator in search box. itonly lists for .30-.30 and .30-06 now in a core lokt 55 grain

they are cool! and have specia hard primers for the tube magazine thing

[obxned]

Standard pressure ammo is manufactured to be safe in older guns. Most of our popular pistol cartridges have been around for nearly 100 years, and so have some of the guns that shoot them. New guns made of modern steel can stand a lot more pressure than the first guns made for these cartridges.

Most of the guns made today are approved for this ammo by the makers. If you want a bit more 'modern' load for your gun, then get the +P. While I do not shoot +P as much as WWB or similar, some of my favorite field and SD loads are +P.

[Bezoar]

Thats raises a question though that we are all supposed to think about when buying a gun to begin with:
IS the firearms chambering sufficient for what we plan to do with it?

It seems you decided regular ammunition in your current calibers is not sufficient for what you want. So why not get a gun with a more powerful chambering?
Say if 45acp is not good enough, why not go get a 357 or a 44 special and so on?
And for Ruger fans who load 45 colt to 454 pressure, why not just sell your ruger and get a Taurus in 454 and have all the power you want?

[Sunray]

"...denotes ammo for use in sub machine guns..." No it doesn't. There's no such thing as special NATO subgun ammo. At least not in the CF. The same NATO spec IVI 9mm was used in both the pistol and the SMG. It's no hotter than any factory ammo.
"...that makes it more potent..." Plus P ammo works at higher pressures than regular ammo. It's really just factory ammo that is loaded hotter.
"...they perform very well..." You're lucky. Most rifles won't shoot it worth beans. The accuracy is dismal when compared to a like bullet out of a .223, et al.

[Bezoar]

Sunray, I have read and seen photos of older soviet block made 9mm semi auto pistols that suffered exploded chambers, barrels, and slides when using , get this,

9mm ammunition made for a submachinegun to higher pressure then 9mm is supposed to have.

[copaup]

Actually, the accelerator ammo doesn't accelerate after dropping the sabot. It runs at a higher velocity solely because the undersized projectile is very light for the cartridge that fires it. Same principle is used by the APFSDS rounds fired by tank guns (except that the Accelerators lack fin stabilization and are nowhere near as undersized as the penetrator rounds). The sabot is just there to hold the undersized bullet in the case and to engage the rifling in the barrel. I shot some out of a 30-06 once, and they were neat, but the accuracy was ok at best.

Back on topic, with the exception of 38 special and possibly 9mm I see little use for +p and no use for +p+. 38 special is a very low pressure cartridge to begin with and has plenty of excess case capacity. In modern guns there is plenty of leeway to safely increase the pressure and thus velocity and get the bullets up into the velocity range where they will penetrate and expand adequately. With rounds like the 45acp the bullets are already designed to perform at the lower velocities produced, and the added velocity, which is fairly insignificant, is traded for increased recoil and wear on the gun. Other cartridges, such as the 40 sw are already running pretty hot as is and don't have a lot of leeway to play around with.

You need enough velocity to get into the performance window of the bullet you are firing. More is not always better, and paradoxically, excess velocity may in fact hinder penetration by causing expansion that is excessive or too rapid.

[Iron bottom]

I have some NATO and some Hirtenberger sub ammo. The NATO is hotter than run of the mill ammo. The Hirtenberger is really stepping along. I shoot it in a Sig 226 ST. No sign of damage. If I remember correctly, the foreign 9mm ammo is marked with a circle. If half the circle is blacked in, it is handgun ammo. If the whole circle is blacked in, it is sub gun ammo. I've seen both kinds, so be careful with foreign ammo. There is no mistaking that Hirtenberger sub gun ammo when the trigger is pulled.

[islandphish]

The manual in my USP45f says that the gun is rated for +p+ yet each time I mention this people remind me that +p+ doesn't really exist since there is no SAAMI spec. My take is that they must have designed the gun to work reliably with pressures comfortably exceeding listed +p pressures thus giving them the confidence to label it +p+ approved.

As to buying enough gun so +p doesn't feel necessary...it depends. I would guess the reliability of specific cases needs to be taken into account especially when considering semi-autos. Or, why move to a longer or fatter case when you can raise pressure on a shorter action or smaller diameter case with similar results?

[jaholder1971]

There's a few things we forget about 9mm +P that need to be addressed.

Europe's been using 9mm Luger for military and police use for almost 105 years now. We've only been using it since the 70's. Europe doesn't have the product liability issues with firearms and ammunition as we do because of 2 reasons: They have neither civilian gun ownership nor a litigious society. Since basically only the cops and military have handguns and folks don't or cannot sue on demand they can set different standards on their ammunition and firearms.

European standard velocity 9mm would be considered +P+ to the American market. NATO spec 9mm (a.k.a US military M882) pushes a 124 grain bullet at 1250-1300 fps. Literally hundreds of thousands of European Berettas, Hi Powers, Lugers, Glocks, Sigs and H&K pistols have been regularly fed with this ammo for literally a century yet once these pistols and ammo cross the Atlantic they become dangerous to fire with anything hotter than 1000fps!

The U.S. ammunition companies are notorious for downloading every loading for "safety", a.k.a CYA. If your handgun is well made by a reliable manufacturer I wouldn't hesitate putting any 9mm +P+ through it, especially any steel framed European made pistol or Glock.

[Dr.Rob]

Do what you will... but shooting +p+ will wear your recoil springs faster, and there are some guns I won't fire it in.

And FYI, MANY mfg's idea of "+p" is not universal. And increased pressure does NOT always mean increased velocity. You really have to check it on a Chronograph yourself.

See this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=153864&highlight=chrono

Shoot the fastest, heaviest bullet you can shoot accurately & practice with it. An extra 500 rds downrange training is probably worth more than an extra 50ft/lbs on a chart.

[Sundles]

The notion that +P or even +P+ ammo will wear out your pistol sooner is false in most cases--heres why. Provided you dont plink with thousands of rounds of +P or +P+, your gun will never notice the difference. Buy your +P or +P+ ammo, shoot it enough to know where it hits and to know that your gun feeds it. Then simply carry the stuff for defensive use and maybe shoot it a little evey now and then for familiararity. No problem for your pistola.

Most folks cant afford to plink with the stuff any way.

jayholder1971 is exactly correct about Euorpean 9mm ammo versus American 9mm ammo.

[jaholder1971]

Dr.Rob said:Do what you will... but shooting +p+ will wear your recoil springs faster, and there are some guns I won't fire it in.

Recoil springs need to be replaced regularly whether you shoot +P, +P+ or light target loads. A spring's got only so many compression/decompression cycles in it before it breaks and usually cares not how fast it's done.

I wouldn't shoot +P+ in any alloy frame.

[nemoaz]

The 9mm 124 grain NATO FMJ load is at the +P+ level. It's hot stuff. My research states that the NATO load is rated at 42,000 psia (pounds per square inch, absolute). The Federal +P+ 115 grain JHP 9BP-LE averages a maximum pressure of 40,000 psia and the industry or SAAMi standard is 37,4000 psia. If anyone knows how to convert the psia to the copper units of pressure or cup please do so. I'm curious myself.

The NATO load has paper ballistics of 1,300 fps at the muzzle and the Federal +P+ 115 grain also has a muzzle velocity of 1,300 fps. It used to have a velocity of approximately 1,260, but Federal upped it in the nineties.

+1. Especially all Euro pistols are designed for NATO spec ammo. I don't know whly American ammo is so slow.

In a .45, I'd carry +P also. No reason to carry that stuff loaded to 1903 specs when modern powder can increase the velocity and effectiveness. Actually, that big (mostly empty) .45 ACP case coud be loaded to very hot specs and near magnum performance.

[Checkman]

Yes but would you shoot it in a polymer frame? I do though only occassionally. Too expensive even in 9mm. Well this thread has taken off hasn't it.

[Sundles]

There is only one reason that American ammo is loaded so light and that reason is....drum roll....LAWYERS!!!

It has little to do with the durability of the arms involved.

The truth shall set you free.

[jaholder1971]

Yes but would you shoot it in a polymer frame? I do though only occassionally. Too expensive even in 9mm. Well this thread has taken off hasn't it.

Glocks were designed in Austria around this ammo. Any reputable manufacturer who's using polymer frames should be able to handle it.

[Dr.Rob]

I did say faster, wear, as that's been my experience, see below:

Examples of +p being too hot: ProLoad .45ACP +p 200 gr jfp DENTED the end of my guide rod in a full sized Colt 1991A1. I'd shot other ammo, including handloads I thought were 'warm', but when the ammo messes up your gun, it's too hot. That spring wasn't worn out, nor was it a lightweight 'plinking' spring.

9mm is notorious for high pressure loads. See RCBS and Speer reloading manuals for reference, but since various mfg's of brass have slight variences INSIDE the case, even a half grain of powder can make a dramatic increase in pressure. It's tricky to 'hot rod' 9mm for this reason, and most reloading manuals recommend using ONE brand of brass to work up high end loads. I'm not saying +p+ is all hype... I am saying, particularly in 9mm, there is a finer line between +p+ and blown primers and cracked cases, compared to other cartridges.

And +p has been marketed in rifles... see Hornady's "Light Magnum" line.

[jaholder1971]

Dr.Rob,

A good friend's 1911 did the exact same thing using Remington 185 +P golden Sabers. After we replaced the guide rod we replaced the #16 spring with a #20 and added a Shokbuff. Fixed the problem.

You're correct about reloading to +P and +P+. Ammo manufacturers have strain guages and are able to test their lots of ammo for pressure. Most reloaders don't. I'll stick to the manuals and load sane myself and buy factory for hotter stuff.

[Cannonball888]

Springfield Armory does not recommend +P ammo in alloy frame 1911s.

[jaysouth]

You should shoot ammo over a chrony before making any pronouncements. For the record, GI M-882 ball (nato spec) goes 1170 fps out of my Glock 19 and Sig 226. This does NOT approach high pressure velocities. I don't know where the BS got started about NATO spec ammo being high pressure.

If you can afford to shoot enought +P+ ammo to wear out your gun, you can easily spring for four or five new guns.

I am waiting for someone to post definitive results of a scientifically valid test involving +P ammo and its effect on modern firearms. It ain't happened yet, and until such time as its done, we will have to suffer a lot of unfounded drivel.

As ususal, do your own research, follow the numbers and forget about internet BS traveling at the speed of light.

[fireflyfather]

Tomkat: The reason for using +p .38 special (in a quality gun) is that the factory loads these days are so wimpy compared with original spec ammo, that you almost have to go +p (or buffalo bore, or both) to get the same punch. Even factory +p is pretty thin these days.

[jaholder1971]

NATO spec 9mm is high pressure as it's based on Europe's CIP standard 9mm pressure max of of 39,200 psi versus SAAMI's 38,500 psi for 9mm+P.

The Army's data sheets show M882 having a standard velocity of 1265fps and max pressure of 26,250 psi. The problem is they show a 112 grain bullet used,
NATO spec is 124. You drive a 124 grain bullet from an M9 at 1265fps and you're well outside the 36,250 psi envelope and into CIP standards now.

[jaysouth]

jaholder


Have you fired M-882? Over a chronograph? What length barrel does the "army data sheet" entertain?

The WCC 00 and WCC 02 that I had felt the same as Winchester White box ball but a little cleaner. Again, the 'army data sheet' notwithstanding, I could not get 1200 fps out of a Glock 19 or Sig 226. Who else has fired these over a chrony?

This thread begs the question. How many rounds will a commonly encountered handgun shoot before being 'shot out'. To my knowledge, no one has ever done any research except for chuck Taylor anecdotes. Certainly no scientifically valid study has ever been done.

Until such time, discussions such as the one above are internet BS. Shoot what you like within the limits of your wallet and wrists and elbows. If +P+ ammo has a deleterious effect on a particular gun, I don't think most posters or shooters could afford enough hot ammo to put appreciable wear on their piece.

[Geno]

This whole +P and +P+ makes me chuckle. I can't figure out if the ammunition companies, in conjunction with the retailers who sell it, are being a bunch of cheap "pups" by selling "dumbed-down" rounds, or if they are being paranoid in the litigious AmeriKan society.

But, when I log into sites such as MidwayUSA.com, and try to purchase legitimate .38 Super ammunition, and can locate only .38 Neutered, I have to ponder what the Hades is going on?

The .38 Super rounds that they sell are listed on their website (Win, Rem, etc), as having average velocity of (1,225) only about 40ish FPS faster than the run-of-the-mill 9MMs (1,180). However, when I consult my reloading manuals, they have the .38 Super burning the pages at 1,594 FPS with the very same 124 to 130 grain rounds. What gives? Cheap, paranoid or both?

If I wanted a neutered 9MM I would have bought a .380 ACP, 9 Luger, not a .38 Super. For my part, I refuse to pay the absurd +P and +P+ prices and still remain nearly 200 FPS UNDER the listed safe pressures in my reloading manuals. I will reload.

I honestly don't know if I should say, “Rant off”, or ”Rip-off!”!

[Dr.Rob]

.38 super is downloaded because stupid people would load it in a .38ACP or say Astra 9mm Largo and blow up their guns. The same reason US made 8mm Mauser is lukewarm, there are old Mausers that will chamber the ammo but it's NOT safe to shoot it.

Original spec .357 mag and 38/44 Heavy Duty loads were pretty awe inspiring. Some poorly made .38's will chamber a .357 cartridge. People did just that. They blew up their guns doing so.

People are stupid. You can't legislate that out of existance.

MANY mfgs now rate their guns +p or not. It's up to you to read your owners manual.

[ccmdfd]

So SAAMI is only applicable to US loadings if I'm reading this thread right?

Thanks
cc