M16 question


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ar10
June 17, 2007, 05:48 PM
Person I know just got back from his 2nd tour in Iraq and will probably be going for another. He's a squad leader and runs a lot Humvee patrols and has been in a lot of building to building fights. He and I were talking about how much I loved the M1 and absolutely hated the M14 then M16.
Here's what he said:
The M16 is pretty worthless in the Humvee they need to cut about 8" off the barrel. When the Humvee is loaded the M16's usually hanging out the windows and it's time consuming to aquire the target from the vehicle.

One of the most common problems he has is the having to rack it after 9 or 10 rounds particularly when they're in a pretty hot zone. What most of the squads are doing now is getting the fastest loader of the Remmington 12ga to clear the house enterances, then using the M8 (handgun I think) for the guys going in afterward.

That being said, I told him in my day we generally dumped the M14/16 and used AK47's.

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kcmarine
June 17, 2007, 06:13 PM
Yeah... the M16A2 would be a bit long in there... I'm surprised he isn't using an M4. For that kind of work, you don't think that the extra barrel length would be that useful. I mean, you're shooting in a house and across the street.

Surprises me the military isn't issuing M4s to our soldiers.

And the AK would be the better weapon in that situation...

Onmilo
June 17, 2007, 06:27 PM
I disagree.
The M4 is being issued enmasse to Army and Air Force combat troops.
Marines still use M16A4 full size rifles and they aren't complaining.

Newer vehicles are ready to be deployed when and if the Congress will quit screwing around with the war budget and the HumVee is a glorified Jeep, nothing more.
Trying to get the rifle out of the vehicle is only half the problem, getting a 6'3" Marine or Trooper out is even more difficult.

mister_wilburn
June 17, 2007, 06:32 PM
A few things dont add up about your statements:

--"When the Humvee is loaded the M16's usually hanging out the windows and it's time consuming to aquire the target from the vehicle."

What kind of hmmv's are they driving over there? All the ones I saw had up-armour on them, and nothing rolled out the wire without it, period.
You wouldn't have a m-16 hanging out of the window, the windows stay shut. I might be wrong, if so, im sorry.

Second: he said he liked the m-1's, but not the m-14s or 16's? When did he use an M-1 in combat? I know they have 16's 4's 14's shotguns, m-9 beretta 9mm's, and an assortment depending on who you work for. but an m-1?? Sounds strange. Again, if im uninformed, i apoligize, just a few questions.

RockyMtnTactical
June 17, 2007, 06:48 PM
When vehicles or close quarters are involved, M4's are much better. I prefer it in general...

Quiet
June 17, 2007, 06:48 PM
I'm also suprised that they were still using the M-16 and not M-4A1.

Second: he said he liked the m-1's, but not the m-14s or 16's? When did he use an M-1 in combat? I know they have 16's 4's 14's shotguns, m-9 beretta 9mm's, and an assortment depending on who you work for. but an m-1?? Sounds strange. Again, if im uninformed, i apoligize, just a few questions.
The OP said he, not his buddy that just got back from the sandbox, liked the M-1 and didn't like the M-14/M-16.

He and I were talking about how much I loved the M1 and absolutely hated the M14 then M16.

tinroad37e
June 17, 2007, 07:16 PM
Different units have different standard of procedures (SOP) when it comes to windows being up or down. The smart units leave their windows up!

High Planes Drifter
June 17, 2007, 07:25 PM
He and I were talking about how much I loved the M1 and absolutely hated the M14 then M16.

What are your reasons for hating the M14 and the M16 (Im especially curious about the M14, scince its an updated M1). ?

mister_wilburn
June 17, 2007, 07:52 PM
I see, i didn't read careful enough. thanks for clearing that one up.

Dgindlesperger
June 17, 2007, 07:59 PM
I;m just wondering why if the Army is issueing any M16's with a 10.5 inch barrel. A SBR would seam to be the way to go in close quarters. A shot gun is fun, but I really don't think it is the best choice.

Jeremy2171
June 18, 2007, 06:21 AM
If the truck is uparmored the windows stay shut ......period.

M4A1 are only spec ops issue, M4s go to those who need them...unless you are in the airforce and they all (mostly) have them. Marines have A4s in wide issue with some M4s spread loaded around.

HorseSoldier
June 18, 2007, 10:44 AM
The M16 is pretty worthless in the Humvee they need to cut about 8" off the barrel. When the Humvee is loaded the M16's usually hanging out the windows and it's time consuming to aquire the target from the vehicle.


Vehicle operations are one of the big driving forces behind the popularity of SBR-length uppers and the HK 416 (most seem to go with the 12" barrel) in SOF units.

What most of the squads are doing now is getting the fastest loader of the Remmington 12ga to clear the house enterances, then using the M8 (handgun I think) for the guys going in afterward.


Is he in the Marines, by some chance. I'd take an M4 over a handgun for CQC all day long, but if I was saddled with a 20" barrel, I might have a different opinion.

M4s go to those who need them...unless you are in the airforce and they all (mostly) have them.

USAF seems to have some pretty crazy quilt kind of weapons. Last time I worked with Air Force guys the one "M4" they had that I got my hands on was built on an M16 (pre-A1) lower receiver, with a crazy mix of -A1 and -A2/M4 components. That was a CONUS unit, and the issue weapon for members of a helicopter crew, so maybe it's less mix-masterish over in the desert.

ar10
June 18, 2007, 10:49 AM
Wish I could answer all the questions, I can't. I just met Matt (don't know his last name) and talked with him for the first time the other day. We started talking because his dad is a VN army vet and so am I. He's in the Ohio National Guard and is getting ready to deploy again, (3rd tour) to Iraq. His first tour was the first invasion and followed the Marine Corp in cleanup operations.
As far as the hummers, I've never been in one, or even the private owner ones so I have no experience. If they are anything like the 6x6 we had I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
I do know that most of the NG units in Ohio are pretty poorly equipped and trained because the papers and news channels have reported it.

Regarding the M1/M14/M16's. I joined the corp in 1962 and trained with the M1. The transition period to M14 then M16. My personal opinion is pretty simple. The M1 always fired when you pulled the trigger, and I fired thousands of round thru the same weapon I was issued in boot camp, I also trained with the BAR. It jambed occasionally but only because the magazines were caked with crap. I cannot say the same for the M14 or M16. I also know the Russian built AK's, (not the Chinese) out preformed any of the M14's and 16's

DMK
June 18, 2007, 10:53 AM
It seems to me that the some of the problems are due to the type of operations they are doing there.

Folks using the M1, M14 and M16A1s, walked most of the time and if they did ride, it was in Duece & 1/2s, open top Jeeps, or helos. They didn't have to pack themselves into a cramped, confined vehicle like the Humvee.

Byron
June 18, 2007, 11:20 AM
XD, Welcome Home. I was a grunt in the 4th Inf Div in 68-69.When I got there the bugs were out of the 16. Mine worked well.
Byron D Co. 3/8th Inf,4th Inf Div

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