[kerank]

Looking to get into shotgunning, and I confess to being overwhelmed by all the information out there. I need to buy a shotgun, and would like to get a "nice" one without breaking the bank too much (I could go up to $1300 if justified, but would like to keep it within $700 - $1000).

I have a bunch of questions... on fit? Dominant left-eye, right-handed shooting, and more. But I thought I would start with a simpler question...

What gauge? Should a grown man choose a 20 ga. over a 12 ga., or is that only for children? I plan on using it for clays (skeet, sporting clays, etc..) and maybe dove, quail. What will I NOT be able to do with a 20 ga.?

[Tjellema]

For what you stated, a 20 will work just fine. I kill lots of pheasent in SD with a 20. Good luck.

[benatilstate]

Other than a few hunting tasks (long shots at ducks and turkey hunting), a 20ga is just as capable as a 12ga. A clay target cant tell the difference.

Having said that, I would recommend a 12ga over a 20ga for a beginner since every extra 1/4oz of shot increases your chances of a hit. Clay shooting is way more fun when you can actually hit something.

Most shotgunners start with a 12ga, and work their way down.

[Milkmaster]

if you are at least a mid-sized man then go with the 12. The uses you describe will not require high loaded shells plus you get a little more shot out in that pattern with the 12. That being said, there is no reason not to get a 20 if that is what you like. A box of shells for either costs the same at some place like Wal-mart. 16 gauge used to be a good compromise, but the popularity of the 16 has waned in recent years. I don't shoot 16 any more simply because of the ammo $$$ difference and availability. 12 & 20's seem to be the rulers of the market now. The money you are talking about spending will actually get you both if you don't choose the top models. Whatever you get have fun!

[115grfmj]

Is a great gauge, and very popular. 12's do goose hunting better, large game better, general waterfowl better, turkey better, SD they can deliver more payload on target.

That being said the 20ga is no slouch, the 12 is just more versatile. The 20 is certainly lighter kicking but I wouldn't hestitate to get one.

[Dave McCracken]

12 gauge advantages include a wider spectrum of ammo choices and oft cheaper ammo. With the new 7/8 oz loads getting more common, one can duplicate 20 gauge performance if not the lighter weight of many 20s.

Either will work for what you want. Get the one that feels best...

[jmr40]

I'm not a big fan of the 20, there are plenty of light loads in 12 gauge that duplicate 20 gauge recoil. There are also plenty of light weight 12 gauge shotguns on the market today.

[RNB65]

What can a 12 ga. do that a 20 ga. can not?

Break 40+ yd, 90 degree crossers (aka, full deflection shots)! :)

[redneck2]

I suspect the shot string is shorter with a 12 because the shot column for a given load is shorter.

Ammo for a 12 is as cheap as it gets. Maximum variety.

If you need to, you can throw more pellets with a 12.

[sm]

I suggest getting a copy of
Shotgunning: The Art & Science - Bob Brister

Then meet some folks, shoot various guns, and learn to use a pattern board.
All this will assist in making informed choice of what shotgun, what gauge for you.

[New_geezer]

Should a grown man choose a 20 ga. over a 12 ga., or is that only for children?


I can't imagine what you've ever read here to even think to ask that question. No firearm is a toy and 'only for children'. In my view, children are better suited for certain firearms, not the other way around.

That said, a 12 ga is probably the best choice for a new shooter. For the money you're considering a nice Wingmaster 870 seems like a good versatile choice. As for your other concerns, there's lots of talk in the forums but you might be best served vising a range and getting some instruction. I think the more direct hands-on approach would do you good.

[Jorg]

12 gauge advantages include a wider spectrum of ammo choices and oft cheaper ammo.

I would say that is probably the number one advantage if you really want to shoot a lot.

[toivo]

I have both, and I like both. For the "one gun" scenario you might be better off with a a 12, if only for the availability of a wide variety of ammo.

If you go with a pump, you'll have no problem staying in your price range: Mossberg, Remington, Browning, Benelli, etc. If you go with a semi-auto, I suggest Remington (1100, 11-87) for your lower range and Beretta (390, 3901, 391) for your upper. These are guns with a proven track record and wide availability of parts, service, etc. (This is personal opinion only, and I'm sure fans of other guns have a good case to make.)

I don't know much about eye dominance issues. Try the search function to see if there are other threads about this, either here or at Shotgunworld.com (http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/).

[hexidismal]

12 gauge advantages include a wider spectrum of ammo choices and oft cheaper ammo.
+1
I agree, that would have been my #1 answer as well. For the purposes you describe, I'm sure a 20g would suit you just fine. If on the other hand one is discussing a shotgun for defensive purposes, the 12g wins hands down specifically due to loads available.

[ArmedBear]

A 12 Gauge can shoot a better pattern with larger pellets at a higher velocity, but can also shoot #9 skeet loads very well. It generally swings smoothly, but doesn't point as quickly as a 20.

A 20 Gauge is generally a quicker-pointing gun, plenty of payload for dove and quail, and easier to hunt fast-moving birds with than a 12.

For dove and quail, a 20 is probably a better choice. For skeet, it'll work as well as anything. None of these requires bigger than #7.5 shot. A lighter, quicker gun is an advantage, generally, especially if you jump quail. In the field, a lighter gun feels a lot better after an hour or so.

Sporting Clays is dominated by 12 Gauge, particularly if there are longer shots. A longer, heavier, smooth-swinging gun is an advantage, generally. Trap is completely dominated by 12 Gauge, and long, heavy guns. In the field, though, carrying a long, heavy gun around gets tedious. Field 12's are lighter, but not like most 20's. You wouldnt want them to be.

Shotguns are like golf clubs. Your choice has more to do with swing characteristics than gauge, unless you NEED to shoot large diameter pellets, and need to get enough pattern density (waterfowl, turkey, and distant pheasant loads, for example).

20 is not a kid's gun; it's a great upland gun. 12 Gauge shotguns are incredibly versatile, and they're generally heavier. Different purposes.

If in doubt, a 12 will do whatever you want. Eventually, you'll get a 20, also.

[foghornl]

My 1/50th of $1....

12-Ga has a much wider selection of 'factory-off-the-shelf' ammo than any other shotgun....from the extra-light target loads to the super-duper shoulder-tweaking waterfowl & turkey shells. Widest selection of buckshot & slugs, too. 12-Ga is loaded from #4Buck through 000Buck, I have only seen #3 Buck in 20-Ga.

That being said, 20-Ga guns are quite versatile, too; usually a bit lighter in weight and faster to point than a 12-Ga of the same type/brand. Good for most small game and birds. I have seen deer taken w/20-Ga slugs, too, with no appreciable difference in performance, based on good shooting....it doesn't matter if you only 'wing' a deer with a 20-Ga or a 40MM canon, same result if the hunter doesn't do his part, game is lost, only to suffer a miserable end.

I started shotgunning with a Savage/Stevens 94B in 16-Ga (single-shot), then I got my hooks on a Rem "Sportsman" 20-Ga. After we had to start using 'unleaded' shot for waterfowl, I stepped up to the Maverick 88 12-ga.

Other than waterfowl-n-turkey, can't really think of too many things that a 20-Ga can't do.

[JiminCA]

Shot selection in either 12 or 20 is a non-issue for me. I can get Win AA's (clay games), promo loads, cheap practice loads, and good hunting loads for both. Pretty much in any shot size I want. And they cost less than I could reload them for.

The one shotgun in my safe that has killed more birds than any other is a 20. I hunt a lot of quail, and the 6 lb 20 is about perfect. In fact I often use a 28 with no apparent difference. Just bought a lightweight 20 that I think will be even more pleasurable in the field.

My 20's are O/U's and sxs's. My 12's are semiauto waterfowl guns.

Sooner or later you'll have both, assuming you enjoy shotguns.

[Seancass]

a 12 gauge can blow a man through a wall in a defence cituation. I've never seen a 20 do that!

A 12 will make it easier to hit the target, yes, theortically. more shot= more chances. but i bet everybody here learned on something OTHER than a 12. you can learn to be a better shot shooting a smaller load. many here started on 410's and are good shots because of that.

[ArmedBear]

a 12 gauge can blow a man through a wall in a defence cituation. I've never seen a 20 do that!

Ever seen a 12 do that? I haven't.

[berettashotgun]

A TIN can blow him thru TWO walls
and an ATE can get him all the way to the street
Neither is half as bad-A as my glock(:barf:) NINE:neener:

[berettashotgun]

Really think a 20 is as useful as a 12ga.
I started using a 28ga for dove last year and liked it, but the 391 20ga never gets used- I almost always end up grabbing my O/U 12ga Beretta. I have a 20ga O/U and NEVER have hunted with it. Been in its case for the better part of 5 years - only coming out for its semi monthly cleaning.

[45auto]

For clay targets, the 12 gauge does everything a 20 does...only better.

Better pattern with the same amount of shot, less shot "string" than a 20 and generally better weight/ balance than a 20. Remember, heavier guns are better for clay targets generally speaking.

Buy a 20 if you want a smaller "framed" gun, lighter weight, etc. Otherwise, IMHO, there's no functional reason for a 20 in the clay target sports. It "hangs on" probably because of Skeet, which still has 20 gauge events.

[CZ.22]

kill grizzly

[Mannix]

What can a 12 ga. do that a 20 ga. can not?

Make a bigger hole :evil:.

[tube_ee]

Shoot over 1 oz of shot well.

The old rules still make a lot of sense. 7/8 = 20, 1 = 16, 1 1/8-1 1/4 = 12, 1 1/2 and up, 10. You can stuff more shot in the same bore by making the shells longer, but something's gotta give. Patterns usually suffer. 3" 20s are infamous for this. If 7/8 oz isn't enough lead for you, and sometimes it isn't, get a bigger gun. Me, I actually prefer a 16 to a 12 or a 20 for upland use, and I'd probably skip the 20 and go to a 28 for a smaller bore, since I already have a 12 and a 16.

Me likey the 16 bore, although the 12 rules for flexibility. If you can only own one shotgun, get a 12.

--Shannon

[MCgunner]

I'm not a big fan of the 20, there are plenty of light loads in 12 gauge that duplicate 20 gauge recoil.

It might defy logic, but I find 20 really is lighter on the shoulder even if both shells are packin' 7/8 ounces. I don't really know why, but I will buy no more 12s in light guns. I have a pair of 12s and an old side by side 12 and my gas gun is sweet, the only way to go in a 12 gauge once you get old and tired of getting pounded by 3" heavy waterfowl loads. I might get a Spartan 453 in the future, don't know. I have a Mossberg for goose hunting and general waterfowl and my Winchester 1400. I really don't need another shotgun. I'll be using my light side by side 20 a LOT on doves, though. I like that thing, and it'll be an awesome quick pointing gun on quail or other upland stuff. I've even got some 3" steel for it to take it on some early duck hunts this season just for grins. Yeah, the 12 is a better all around and better waterfowl gun and since I shoot mostly waterfowl, I'm flush with 12 gauge guns. But, I was missing having a 20 in the safe, so I got one. I like it a lot and it fills a niche for me that needed filling. I could have gotten the same gun in 12, but my shoulder appreciates the 20.

Quote:
a 12 gauge can blow a man through a wall in a defence cituation. I've never seen a 20 do that!

Ever seen a 12 do that? I haven't.

Yeah, in the movie "Open Range", Duval blows a guy off his feet with a blast from a 12. ROFLMAO! I hollered BS at the TV on that one and the wife thought me weird, but it is BS. I mean, they had the guy lifted right off his feet and he flew into a wall of a building and this after the blast had blow a hole in the wall Duval was shooting through. ROFL They sorta miffed that one, but that's Hollywood. If you go believing everything you see in a movie, you will be one screwed up individual.

By the way, is that a "defense citation" or is that a "defense situation"? LOL It can be "defence" if you live in Britain I suppose. Hmm, guess I'm going to have to find a couple of volunteers and see if my 20 can "blow him" off his feet. Shoot one with the 12 and one with the 20. I've never actually seen a man shot with either. Well, I did see a kid peppered with number six from about 30 yards with a 12, result of a Dick Cheney style hunting accident, but it didn't blow him off his feet any quicker than Cheney's 28 blew that lawyer off his. I remember a dude who walked into the emergency room of the hospital I worked at as a kid, holding his guts in with his hands. He'd been shot point blank in the stomach with a 12 gauge and drove himself to the hospital where they patched him up. He survived. Don't know what condition the wall was in that was behind him, though.

[WinchesterAA]

I love my buddies pistolgrip 20gauge. It ways very very little, holds 6+1, and no recoil whatsoever.

[The Deer Hunter]

Make bigger holes:neener:

[Frog48]

Either one will do you fine.

[19-3Ben]

I heard that a 12 ga. once beat up a 20 ga. and stole his lunch money. But that was just a rumor.:)

[CoolPapaCatDJ]

I think a 20ga is just fine for what you want it for. All a 12ga will do is put more shot on a target at a farther range. Had a Mossberg 500 20ga, was a neat gun. Have a Mossberg Maverick Mdl 88 12 ga now. Both are great guns!

[PJR]

It might defy logic, but I find 20 really is lighter on the shoulder even if both shells are packin' 7/8 ounces.
It probably is due to velocity. Most 7/8s ounce 12 gauge loads are a little faster stepping than the 20 gauge.

[another okie]

For the uses you describe, an over and under 20 gauge would be hard to beat. Academy Sports sells a nice-looking turkish over and under for about 400, if I recall correctly. A friend of mine has one and it shoots nice. For lighter recoil, a Remington 1100 in 20 gauge is very nice.

Fit is very important in a shotgun. You will not be able to shoot accurately if the gun is too long or too short, so it is worthwhile to buy from a store with a staff that understands fit, or else take the gun to a good gunsmith for modification.

If later you want to hunt ducks or geese or use buckshot for deer or home invaders, a 12 would be nice to have, too.

[wolf_from_wv]

A 12 gauge can shoot all kinds of weird and impractical loads that they don't even make for the 20 gauge.

There seems to be more 12 gauge boxes of ammunition setting on store shelves than any other gauge.

There have been reports with the 12 gauge 3.5" mag-numb with hot loads involving detached retinas...

A 12 gauge can put more shot in the air than a 20 gauge.

[Frog48]

There have been reports with the 12 gauge 3.5" mag-numb with hot loads involving detached retinas...

I cant comment on that... But I do know that I use 3.5" shells when duck hunting, and after a couple mornings I have a nasty bruised shoulder.

[wolf_from_wv]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=magnum+shotguns+detached+retinas&btnG=Google+Search

(they don't have the market cornered on detached retinas...)

[byf43]

seancass wrote:
A 12 will make it easier to hit the target, yes, theortically. more shot= more chances. but i bet everybody here learned on something OTHER than a 12. you can learn to be a better shot shooting a smaller load. many here started on 410's and are good shots because of that.



I think you just lost the bet.

I learned on an OLD Stevens 12 ga. single shot that my Dad acquired on a trade.
(For the record, Dad got the worse end of the deal. He traded off an Arisaka 7.7mm, and the guy gave Dad the scattergun and $20.00. The Arisaka had the 'Mum' and the rear sight wings. It was in good shape.)
Dad still has that old Stevens. It was and still is a piece of junk, IMO.

It kicked like a Tennessee Mule!!!!

Oh, and what will a 12 ga do that a 20 ga can't?
Throw a 2 oz load of shot downrange from one shell and kick while doin' it!

[wolf_from_wv]

My first three shots from a shotgun were on a 12 gauge Charles Daly Special Field semi-auto. If I had used those 3 shots as a guide, I'd probably have never picked up a 12 gauge again. 870 recoil felt better.

[MCgunner]

For the uses you describe, an over and under 20 gauge would be hard to beat. Academy Sports sells a nice-looking Turkish over and under for about 400, if I recall correctly. A friend of mine has one and it shoots nice. For lighter recoil, a Remington 1100 in 20 gauge is very nice.

Can never remember the name of that thing, but yeah, I had the hots for that Turkish built gun at Academy for a while. I found a gun that fits some of my needs better, though, in 20 gauge, a Remington Spartan side-by-side. It has 20 inch barrels and I can take it down and store it in my GoldWing's saddle bags, which is not necessarily a requirement to hunting, but it was for me. :D It shoots a nice, tight pattern at 40 yards with Winchester super X ammo for birds and I've even bought some 3" steel for it to try during teal/duck season, though my 12s are my waterfowl guns. I mainly wanted the gun to dove hunt with and if I get a chance to do some upland game and perhaps to do our country doubles shoots with. I really wanted a 20 in my collection, too, and now I have it. I wouldn't want a 12 gauge in a gun that light, OUCH! A bonus to the gun, too, with the open chokes in it (cyl/IC), it does bedside duty with Remington #3 buck loads. Actually, this gun is reasonably accurate at 50 yards with slugs and they don't hurt out of a 20. My old light weight 12 gauge side-by-side Spanish built Sarasqueta HURTS with slugs. I'm talkin' 12 O'Clock high after the shot! That's the hardest kickin' load in a shotgun I've ever fired and it isn't pleasant and doesn't make for quick follow ups either. That Sarasqueta don't weigh, but about 6 and a half pounds. My 20 is under 6.

I got the Spartan for $300+tax, 100 less than the Turkish gun, which was a bonus, too, but I really wanted a stack barrel. But, the need for the short barrels really sealed the deal. That Turkish gun has one thing I'd like, selective ejectors. The Spartan just has extractors. BUT, I much prefer the double triggers on the Spartan to the single selective trigger on that Turkish gun. I think I'd rather have the double triggers than the selective ejectors if I have to make the choice between the two.