Conversation in a Book Store


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ZeSpectre
June 17, 2007, 10:20 PM
The wife and I were in Barnes and Noble bookstore today and I remembered that I wanted to pick up a new copy of “More guns less crime”. Darned if I could find it so I went to the customer assistance counter where a young man of about 25 years of age asked if he could help me.

Me: “Hi, yes, I’m trying to find a book and I can’t seem to find the right section of the store.”
Him: “Sure, what’s the title?”
Me: “More guns Less crime” by John Lott
Him: “Hrmph, that’s a bit of an oxymoron isn’t it?”
Me: “Really? Why do you think so?”
Him: “Because guns cause crime.”
Me: “Guns cause crime…isn’t that like saying that cars cause drunk driving accidents or spoons cause people to be fat?”
Him: “Well they do.”
Me: “Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that you believe inanimate objects like cars or spoons cause problems and not the choices of the people who use them?”
Him: “Well guns …empower… people and that makes them do things they wouldn’t do otherwise.”
Me: “Man you watch too much TV. Guns don’t have some zen-voodoo mystic ability, they don’t “make” anyone do anything they aren’t already prone to doing. Bad guys do bad things, guns or no guns, and good guys don’t do bad things, guns or no guns.”
Him: “Well I don’t believe that, more guns never make a situation better.”
Me: “I tell you what, if you promise to give it a read I’ll buy TWO copies of the book and give one to you so you can read some studies on the topic.”
Him: “Nah, that’s okay.”
Me: “Well if you aren’t going to educate yourself on the topic then I guess this conversation is done. Would you please help me find the book now?”

He did, I bought my copy and left.

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Outlaws
June 17, 2007, 10:26 PM
There are only two types of guys that work in book stores..... One that is, and one that just doesn't know he is. I'll leave it to everyone to figure out what is is.

tepin
June 17, 2007, 10:31 PM
.......

Me: “Hi, yes, I’m trying to find a book and I can’t seem to find the right section of the store.”
Him: “Sure, what’s the title?”
Me: “More guns Less crime” by John Lott
Him: “Hrmph, that’s a bit of an oxymoron isn’t it?”
Me: “Why are you calling me a moron? I want to speat to the manager"

:D

freakazoid
June 17, 2007, 10:47 PM
Guns don’t have some zen-voodoo mystic ability,

lol, :)

There are only two types of guys that work in book stores..... One that is, and one that just doesn't know he is. I'll leave it to everyone to figure out what is is.

I would like to work at a bookstore, :(. Well, as long as I get some kind of discount, :)

Sage of Seattle
June 17, 2007, 11:04 PM
You: “Really? Why do you think so?”
Him: “Because guns cause crime.”
You: “Guns cause crime…isn’t that like saying that cars cause drunk driving accidents or spoons cause people to be fat?”
Him: “Well they do.”
You: “You'd better turn in your car then, right quick... you're just an accident waiting to happen! Good thing you warned me. There's no way I'd want to be on the same road as you because you might just go crazy and want to take me out with you.”
Him: “Well guns …empower… people and that makes them do things they wouldn’t do otherwise.”
You: “Like take responsibility for their own protection?”
Him: “Well I don’t believe that, more guns never make a situation better.”
You: "Tell that to the million plus people who successfully defended their lives and property last year, the vast majority never even firing a shot."

Yeah, I'm learning slowly but surely how to respond to these things, especially after my phone call with that attorney a few weeks back.

wacki
June 17, 2007, 11:14 PM
You handled it well. Although I would add a few things:

Me: “I tell you what, if you promise to give it a read I’ll buy TWO copies of the book and give one to you so you can read some studies on the topic.”
Him: “Nah, that’s okay.”
Me: “Well if you prefer to remain naive and refuse to educate yourself because you are afraid what the facts may show then there's no point in us discussing this more. Would you please help me find the book now?”

He did, I bought my copy and left.

I tend to be a little more blunt than most.

baz
June 17, 2007, 11:22 PM
I'm surprised they even had the book on the shelf. I'd have expected it to be a special order.

Finch
June 17, 2007, 11:26 PM
I worked at Borders for about 6 months. Never in my life have I ever been surrounded by more hippie liberal socialists in my life....and I've been to Berkley.

Crunker1337
June 17, 2007, 11:36 PM
Your last line made me LOL.

Nice try, but some people are beyond hope. Fight the battles that you can win.

speedball
June 18, 2007, 12:03 AM
They are all working on their phd in socioligy. Seriously, I used to date one that worked there.:)

Kali Endgame
June 18, 2007, 12:34 AM
2000 years ago, this guy would be residing in the gut of a large carnivore.

Him: “Well I don’t believe that, more clubs never make a situation better.”

.cheese.
June 18, 2007, 12:36 AM
I worked at Borders for about 6 months. Never in my life have I ever been surrounded by more hippie liberal socialists in my life....and I've been to Berkley.

Apparently you've never been to a national juggling convention.

ancient_philosophy
June 18, 2007, 12:44 AM
people like that are lemmings, theyre a stereotype, the "lay down and die" when danger comes.

give me his name and the bookshop location.

im in KY, but i was forced to live in San Francisco for a year, made me puke.... i battled every anti-gun loser there i could, i always won. ;)

The Lone Haranguer
June 18, 2007, 12:50 AM
Might it be worthwhile to have a chat with the manager? That clerk is there to serve customers, in your case finding the book you were looking for, not editorializing. Perhaps he would be more comfortable working somewhere else, since B&N carries a full line of gun magazines.

2TransAms
June 18, 2007, 12:56 AM
You handled it fine. You were only there to get the book anyway.

My cousin worked at Borders for a few months,and I think he's got the makings of a libertarian.

eric_t12
June 18, 2007, 01:23 AM
congrats, and yes, that last line was outstanding, good work.

Don Gwinn
June 18, 2007, 01:27 AM
Me: “Hi, yes, I’m trying to find a book and I can’t seem to find the right section of the store.”
Him: “Sure, what’s the title?”
Me: “More guns Less crime” by John Lott
Him: “Hrmph, that’s a bit of an oxymoron isn’t it?”
Me: "No, it's not. Shut up and fetch my book, Book Monkey."

bogie
June 18, 2007, 02:43 AM
Apparently you've never been to a national juggling convention.

Hmm... I'm guessing that you may have met my little brother... Degree in chemistry, and he's gone through life trying to join the circus, because he refuses to work for The Man.

Gwinch, the proper comeback...

"So, if you were holding a gun, you'd shoot someone?"

"Duh... Probably."

"Okay. You need some serious psychiatric counseling about your violence issues, and you really need to be kept away from guns and sharp objects. Could you call your manager so I can discuss the hazard you face to the store's customers?"

ProguninTN
June 18, 2007, 03:11 AM
:D:D:D

outerlimit
June 18, 2007, 03:37 AM
Barnes & Noble is where the local "moms against guns" or whatever Brady bunch goofballs meet up according to the website, though I've never seen them there.

stevelyn
June 18, 2007, 03:40 AM
Well if you're not going to educate yourself on the topic..........

Very polite way of calling him an idiot.:D:D

LAK Supply
June 18, 2007, 03:47 AM
Me: "No, it's not. Shut up and fetch my book, Book Monkey."

Aaaahahahahahahaha! ROFGLMAO!!!!

oneslowgun
June 18, 2007, 04:05 AM
"shut up and fetch my book, Book Monkey".... Dangit, I'm a grown man, and 40yr. olds aren't supposed to giggle like little girls. Worst part is, I just know that phrase is gonna randomly pop into my head over the next few days.

helpless
June 18, 2007, 04:14 AM
Book Monkey, I shot diet pepsi out of my nose.

theken206
June 18, 2007, 05:24 AM
watch mouth call me "ox-moron"

hoji
June 18, 2007, 08:07 AM
Me: "No, it's not. Shut up and fetch my book, Book Monkey."
__________________

There goes the coffee. I will of course be stealing that;)

jeepmor
June 18, 2007, 08:17 AM
I think I'm going to go down to Powell Books in downtown Portland and look for the book just so I can call a hippie a book monkey. Man, that's funny.

McCall911
June 18, 2007, 08:24 AM
Me: "No, it's not. Shut up and fetch my book, Book Monkey."

:D:D:D

No fair! The Mods get all the good lines!

;)

ZeSpectre
June 18, 2007, 08:32 AM
Well I don't remember the employee's name but the B&N was the one at reston town center (reston, VA) for anyone who wants to go there.

gego
June 18, 2007, 08:45 AM
I would say you handled yourself quite well in that little debate.

When people hold views as prejudices rather than well though out positions, they generally make themselves look like idiots, which is true in the case of that young bookseller. The facts are unimportant when it comes to prejudice.

McCall911
June 18, 2007, 09:06 AM
I would say you handled yourself quite well in that little debate.

+1!

Good for you, Ze!

SWMAN
June 18, 2007, 09:45 AM
Try Borders. A few months back I went to the customer service desk and asked the young lady there if they had John Lott's "Straight Shooting: Firearms, Economics and Public Policy". She looked it up and showed me the way. No political or social commentary from her. I guess the B&N clerk couldn't resist commenting on the title "More Guns, Less Crime".

Deanimator
June 18, 2007, 09:58 AM
Barnes & Noble is where the local "moms against guns" or whatever Brady bunch goofballs meet up according to the website, though I've never seen them there.

Until recently, Barnes & Noble was the only bookstore(s) here to reliably carry "Smallarms Review". Liberty Books just opened on the other side of I-90 from the office, and they carry it AND "Gunweek". You can tell that the people working there are hippies, if for no other reason, the Kucinichite bumper stickers on their cars. I always walk up to the cash register with "Gunweek", "Smallarms Review", "Combat Handguns", "Soldier of Fortune", etc., wearing my NRA cap with a "Bush '04" pin on one side and a pewter Glock pin on the other. You can tell they're kind of nervous. :D

The funny thing is that they still carry "Gunweek" since they've been open a few months, but they've dropped the "New York Review of Books"... :confused:

wacki
June 18, 2007, 10:48 AM
Ask him this question. What kills more children under 5 on accident each year? Buckets of water or guns? When he fails the question then say something like "well... ignorance is bliss isn't it?"

willbrink
June 18, 2007, 11:01 AM
Funny you should mention that experience. I shop at BnN all the time in one of the more liberal/anti gun states (MA) and the looks I get when I come up tp the register with Guns and ammo, or More guns less crime, or the big book of the 1911, etc, etc are always interesting. They always look down at the book/mag and look up at me like I have two heads and I may be the next VT shooter. Once in a while I get "are you a cop?" as if no human being other than an LEO could be interested in such a thing. :what:

Sounds like you handled it really well BTW.

mbt2001
June 18, 2007, 11:01 AM
Good job dude....

Most people are not going to "change their position" during a conversation. Anyone who thinks you can debate in win is an idiot. You got the kid thinking and provided some excellent remarks, those will work on him and eventually he will be forced to re-examine his thoughts.

Correia
June 18, 2007, 11:49 AM
There are only two types of guys that work in book stores..... One that is, and one that just doesn't know he is. I'll leave it to everyone to figure out what is is.

Wow. I worked in a bookstore for 5 years while I put myself through college. I've never really had anyone accuse me of "it" before.

Employees ran the gamut from ultra liberal to me and everything in between. Kind of like every other job out there.

Book Monkey... :D Don, I'm totally gonna steal that.

xd9fan
June 18, 2007, 12:10 PM
ZeSpectre you talk too much....either you believe what the cult is telling you or.......we ...will...take.....steps....to..to liberate your thinking on such matters.....please show me your RealID(papers please)




people read your history....Hilter was destroyed by free speech...:rolleyes:

jlbraun
June 18, 2007, 12:14 PM
There are only two types of guys that work in book stores..... One that is, and one that just doesn't know he is. I'll leave it to everyone to figure out what is is.

Low road. :mad:

ZeSpectre
June 18, 2007, 12:19 PM
xd9fan... Yessss Masssster! Igore will go to the basement and flog himself now <grin>.

No.2: “Are you going to run?”
No.6: “Like the blazes; first chance I get.”
No.2: “I meant, run for office?”
(The Prisoner)

Deanimator
June 18, 2007, 12:25 PM
Wow. I worked in a bookstore for 5 years while I put myself through college. I've never really had anyone accuse me of "it" before.
Back in the '80s, there used to be a B. Dalton in Middleburg Heights, OH. I worked up the street from it, so I frequently went there at lunch time.

When I first started going there, there was a pleasant middle-aged woman and a college kid running the store. The kid was like most kids his age, but relatively intelligent. They were usually very helpful ordering gun and computer books for me.

Over time, the regular employees started going away, to be replaced by guys who today might have their own show on Bravo.

A friend used to get the Barnes & Noble remainder catalogs in the mail. We had a running joke about one book that was ALWAYS in the catalog, "Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition". It seemed as though B&N had a LOT of copies of the book and NOT a lot of people who wanted to buy it.

One day I was in the B. Dalton looking at C programming books or something, and a guy came in to pick up a special order. It turned out to be... "Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition"! He and the guy behind the counter discussed it at GREAT length... :rolleyes:

JohnBT
June 18, 2007, 02:18 PM
"town center (reston, VA) "

Ah, lovely NoVA, although I suppose the 'burbs are the same everywhere. Now where did I see Reston in the news. Oh yeah, the Wash Post bobcat article the other day.


"Not everyone is amused.

Mary Beth Swicord wants the varmint to vamoose. "I think it's someone's responsibility. It's not our responsibility!" she complains at the school bus stop that serves as Longwood Grove's information hub, across the street from The Witness's house, where the bobcat was last seen carrying something furry and dead in its jaws. "It needs to be relocated to the mountains where it belongs. It's going to get hurt or hurt something. It does not belong in suburbia!""

Book monkeys, bobcats, pretty soon we can open a zoo.

tinygnat219
June 18, 2007, 02:25 PM
JohnBT,

I grew up in Reston. They already have their own zoo.
Reston also has farms. The main cash crop is hastily built townhouses. Thing is, you can only grow them once. :neener:

whited
June 18, 2007, 02:31 PM
Me: "No, it's not. Shut up and fetch my book, Book Monkey."

Funny!

There are only two types of guys that work in book stores..... One that is, and one that just doesn't know he is. I'll leave it to everyone to figure out what is is.

Avid readers ? Those who want employment ??

Am I getting close ???

Johannes_Paulsen
June 18, 2007, 02:34 PM
I think this requires a letter to Barnes & Noble corporate headquarters. Ask if they really would have been happy if this fellow had dissuaded you from buying a book from them.

It's been my view that B&N and Borders will carry whatever the people in the region want to buy. Out here in Pittsburgh, they both carry all manner of gun/rifle periodicals, books by Mas Ayoob, Chris Bird, books on hunting, handloading, etc.

As for John Lott...well, I have a mixed view of him. He certainly has done a lot to advance the cause of firearms ownership in the academy...on the other hand, well there's the whole "Mary Roush" story:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28771.html

It's a very silly story, and yet, if you demonstrably show even a small a lack of integrity, in my judgment, that seriously undercuts any work you do in the social sciences....

DogBonz
June 18, 2007, 02:39 PM
He's 25 and works at barns & noble.... Nuff said.

He probably lives in his parents basement...

S.P.E.C.T.R.E.
June 18, 2007, 02:50 PM
Amazon.com is your friend. Half the time B&N or Borders has to order the books I want anyway. So I just save myself the trip and order from Amazon. No hippies to deal with either.

DrewH
June 18, 2007, 02:55 PM
Ha! I go to that B&N all the time. Actually has a pretty decent gun magazine (the kind you read:) selection. Last time I rang up a Small Arms Review the clerk actually pointed me towards some firearms related coffee table book.

You handled it very well, cool to offer to buy it for him. As for writing a letter to B&N corporate HQs, you have to have to realize lots of people, the vast majority of which have devoted less than five minutes to actually thinking about it, automatically think "guns are bad". I would rather try to plant the seeds of doubt in people like that (as done by the orginal poster) than have some heavy handed edict come down from B&N HQs that gun owners are whining about being challenged.

As for the kind of people who work in bookstores-well I have worked in a couple in my life and found all kinds. Lots of kids, I guess-I did it when I was young. Yes, "book monkey" is funny but would be rude to actually say that to somebody just doing his job and engaging in conversation.

skinnyguy
June 18, 2007, 03:03 PM
Me: “Well if you aren’t going to educate yourself on the topic then I guess this conversation is done.

Instead of adding "Would you please help me find the book now?” I would have said, "and I'll be sure to mention in my letters to the manager and owner of this store why I went across town to B.Dalton."

AlabamaFamilyMan
June 18, 2007, 03:05 PM
oneslowgun: about those grudges, are you THIS good?


It was rumored she held grudges till they died of old age, then had them stuffed
and mounted.
-- David Weber, 'Field of Dishonor', Ch. 3 --

freakazoid
June 18, 2007, 03:05 PM
He probably lives in his parents basement...

There's nothing wrong with staying in your parents basement, <_< >_> It actually stays quite cool during the summer time, :D

DRZinn
June 18, 2007, 04:19 PM
Me: “Hi, yes, I’m trying to find a book and I can’t seem to find the right section of the store.”
Him: “Sure, what’s the title?”
Me: “More guns Less crime” by John Lott
Him: “Hrmph, that’s a bit of an oxymoron isn’t it?”
Me: “Really? Why don't you stop pontificating and get me my damn book?”

Young gun
June 18, 2007, 04:55 PM
I was recently a $200 borders gift certificate. On the trip to the local borders I bought:

1) Where the Buffalo Roam by Hunter S. Thompson
2) More Guns Less Crime by John Lott (I'm really enjoying it)
3) Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared M. Diamond
4) Leviathan By Thomas Hobbes
5) Candide by Voltaire
6) Justine by the Marquis de Sade (Pornographic but also philosophical treatise similar to Candide)
7) Assault Rifle by Maxim Popenker
8) The Great Book of Guns: An Illustrated History of Military, Sporting, and Antique Firearms by Chris McNab
9) Anarchism: From Theory to Practice by Daniel Guerin (I find Anarchism a fascinating philosophical concept)

the clerk sure gave me some funny looks, but they didn't want to say anything about my choices. I wonder why?:evil:

freakazoid
June 18, 2007, 06:28 PM
I find Anarchism a fascinating philosophical concept

It is fascinating isn't it, :D

captain54
June 18, 2007, 06:39 PM
ZeSpectre --
I totally agree with the clerk. Please PM me and I will give you my address to send me the free copy of the book that you were going to buy for him.:D:D:D

jselvy
June 18, 2007, 06:56 PM
I'd like a copy myself, as I can only afford textbooks these days. I'll say all the anti-gun things you want if that'd make you feel better.

Jefferson

1911austin
June 18, 2007, 07:02 PM
I stopped by a local barns and noble this weekend wearing a shirt that has an outline of a MP5 and reads “Happiness is a warm gun”. I would have gotten fewer strange looks if I had showed up nude playing some bag pipes.

ZeSpectre
June 18, 2007, 08:38 PM
I totally agree with the clerk. Please PM me and I will give you my address to send me the free copy of the book that you were going to buy for him.

Oh I should have seen that one coming.

rickomatic
June 18, 2007, 09:02 PM
Him: “Because guns cause crime.”

With an attitude like that, I guess that makes him a rapist.

Johannes_Paulsen
June 18, 2007, 09:29 PM
Younggun -- the Guerin book is a great primer on the subject. I was a little disappointed that he didn't discuss anarcho-capitalism at all, but it is a great intro to "left" anarchism.

Phaetos
June 18, 2007, 10:37 PM
I'll leave it to everyone to figure out what is is.

I see Mr. Clinton has decided to join our esteemed family here at THR. :D

Outlaws
June 18, 2007, 10:44 PM
3) Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared M. Diamond

Is that any good? I thought that was supposedly a socialist/communist type book?


I'd like a copy myself, as I can only afford textbooks these days.
There is this place called a library. You don't have to pay. Plus many have their inventory listed online so you don't even have to drive their to find out if they have it. ;)

Johannes_Paulsen
June 18, 2007, 11:07 PM
There is this place called a library. You don't have to pay. Plus many have their inventory listed online so you don't even have to drive their to find out if they have it.

Pshaw. You can never have too many guns OR books.

Rudy Kohn
June 18, 2007, 11:12 PM
I went to the local Borders (I'm in Austin) and found a neat little "Guns Recognition Guide" from Jane's... expected a funny look.

Instead, the cashier spent two minutes looking through it before ringing it up.

(Quotes are approximate.)
Him: "This is really cool."
Me: "Yeah. I found it up in the outdoors section. They have one for military aircraft too. They used to make simulations, too."
Him: "Huh."
(It was a little less one-sided, but was awhile ago, so I don't remember it perfectly.)

Didn't have a problem with "More Guns, Less Crime," either. Probably because I talked to the cashier for about three minutes about the Nero Wolfe books I was buying. Maybe they flagged me "safe" for buying a copy of the Federalist Papers? :rolleyes:

ZeSpectre
June 18, 2007, 11:17 PM
There is this place called a library. You don't have to pay. Plus many have their inventory listed online so you don't even have to drive their to find out if they have it.

yeah but the library gets upset when you make notes in the margins of the books ;)

LAK Supply
June 18, 2007, 11:19 PM
.....fetch my book book monkey.....


AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I'm still laughing about this today.




Phaetos - Wyoming for sure! Fewer people, BOOMING economy (median income there is something like $18k more than Montana), lower taxes, and NO CALIFORNIANS INVADING. I'm moving back there late this year/early next year.

MikePGS
June 18, 2007, 11:26 PM
) Where the Buffalo Roam by Hunter S. Thompson
2) More Guns Less Crime by John Lott (I'm really enjoying it)
3) Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared M. Diamond
4) Leviathan By Thomas Hobbes
5) Candide by Voltaire
6) Justine by the Marquis de Sade (Pornographic but also philosophical treatise similar to Candide)
7) Assault Rifle by Maxim Popenker
8) The Great Book of Guns: An Illustrated History of Military, Sporting, and Antique Firearms by Chris McNab
9) Anarchism: From Theory to Practice by Daniel Guerin (I find Anarchism a fascinating philosophical concept)
Nice selection. What your missing though, is some good Sci-Fi. Since you said your interested in Anarchism I highly suggest you run (don't walk) to the bookstore and pick up The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Robert Heinlein. Its about a future colony on the moon (a prison really) and a supercomputer that is used to overthrow the government.

avpro
June 19, 2007, 01:11 AM
Me: “Hi, yes, I’m trying to find a book and I can’t seem to find the right section of the store.”
Him: “Sure, what’s the title?”
Me: “More guns Less crime” by John Lott
Him: “Hrmph, that’s a bit of an oxymoron isn’t it?”
Me: "Well, if you have the answers to all of life's problems, why are you flying that cash register for six bucks an hour? Now why don't you help me find the book?"

Ohio Rifleman
June 19, 2007, 01:31 AM
Me: “Hi, yes, I’m trying to find a book and I can’t seem to find the right section of the store.”
Him: “Sure, what’s the title?”
Me: “More guns Less crime” by John Lott
Him: “Hrmph, that’s a bit of an oxymoron isn’t it?”
Me: "No, it's not. Shut up and fetch my book, Book Monkey."

That is about the funniest thing I have ever read on THR! :D

In all seriousness, you handled the situation well, and this guy can never be "converted." The only hope is to get the fence-sitters over to our side.

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