A new test for je223

[High Planes Drifter]

I have been discussing an idea with je223 for a gel-block test new test. I would like to see a side by side gel-block result comparison between common defensive calibers, using popular/common defensive loads. Here is a rough idea of what we have in mind:

.38 Special - 'FBI load' (158gr +P LHP)
9x19mm - 147gr JHP
.40S&W - 180gr JHP
.357mag- 125gr. jhp
.45- 230gr +p jhp
10mm- 175gr jhp
.357sig- 150gr jhp

What do you guys think; is this something anyone else would like to see? How about some ideas on ammunition to be used? Are there any calibers we should add? je223 could really use some donations for buying the materials needed for the tests; I got sticker shock when he told me how much those blocks cost to make. If you want to see this test happen, please chip in at his site:


www.brassfetcher.com

[MassMark]

Based on the recent .38 Special ammo poll, I'd like to see results for the Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P. It was the clear leader of the pack and I'd like to see how it stacks up...

[PotatoJudge]

I like the idea.

If you were to do two blocks, it would be nice to see one with lighter and one with heavier loads. Like 115 grn 9mm vs 125 grn 38 vs 185 45ACP, and another block with 147 9mm, 158 38spl, 230 45ACP and so on.

I'd think it would make for a useful comparison in deciding caliber/ammo combos.

[wally]

10mm 175gr JHP? 180 is "standard weight" also 150gr JHP for .357SIG seems unusual as 125gr is "standard" for it.

I'd like to see .45ACP .230gr JHP vs 230gr+P JHP. in a 3" barrel

--wally.

[High Planes Drifter]

I'd like to see .45ACP .230gr JHP vs 230gr+P JHP. in a 3" barrel

I was thinking more along the lines of a full size like a 1911 or Sig220. Of course, in the end, I guess its a matter of whatever je223 can get his hands on to do the test with.


10mm 175gr JHP? 180 is "standard weight" also 150gr JHP for .357SIG seems unusual as 125gr is "standard" for it.

Thanks for the advice, I dont have a .357Sig or 10mm, and was simply going by info I dug up here, and on other websites.

[MikePGS]

As for the .40 cal i'd like to see a 135 grain test. Also it would be nice to see doubletap tested, in case it hasn't already been done.

[JE223]

I second all of this. :)

The idea of such a test has always appealed to me - if for no other reason than to give people an idea of how one caliber stacks up to another. If it stops just one 'caliber war' thread, I would gladly do it.

What I would like to see with such a test would be to make a series of 'heavy' blocks and maybe some 'middle-weight' blocks. If someone really wants to see what a lightweight pistol bullet does in each caliber, that test can be done too.

Because of cost issues, I would like to cast the regular 6x6x16" deep blocks and cut them in half, or perhaps just using half of the mixture at a time, giving 3x6x16" blocks - this way the photos will come out clearer and more calibers can be tested on one blocks worth of gelatin powder.

Any thoughts on how the results should be presented?

[DBR]

JE223, if you do this please use the 4 layer denim barrier. It is a worst case test but I believe it is more realistic than bare gel for defensive use pistol bullets.

Why chose a load for limited penetration based on bare gel when it is likely to turn into hardball after clothing? Alternatively, why chose a bullet for its exceptional expansion when it doesn't expand much at all through clothing?

I appreciate your work JE223 and I'll kick in $ if the tests are done with the 4 layer denim barrier. Just an aside: for this type of test to be really valid you need several rounds of each load. Maybe 5 of each?

A lot of this work has been done by David Difabio (ammo lab). His site is no longer in operation but his work is available with his permission on "Warrior Talk Forums":

http://www.warriortalk.com/index.php?

Might be good to check there before you ask JE223 to repeat his tests and save JE223's time for the newer rounds.

[High Planes Drifter]

DBR - thanks for the link. I agree, if the load has already been tested there's certainly no reason to use a much needed gel block retesting it.

DBR- why 4 denim layers; isnt that a bit much?

[DBR]

4 layers of 14oz denim is the generally accepted standard for testing robustness of bullet expansion in 10% calibrated gel. Denim is particularly prone to clog hollow point bullets.

The denim is not supposed to represent any particular clothing combination. If a bullet performs properly after passing through the denim it is much more likely to work after passing through real clothing like canvas coats, down parkas, leather etc.

CCI, Federal, Winchester and Remington to name a few use this test as well as the FBI protocol for their LEO ammo lines. The denim test has lead to significant improvements in several ammo lines over the past few years. Using this test also allows JE223's work to be directly compared with previous tests.

[DBR]

One more point re 3x6x16 blocks: it is my understanding that if the gel block is too narrow it may expand excessively from the temporary cavity and give inaccurate bullet expansion results.

[Odd Job]

@ JE223

If you do the denim test I will be interested in 10 of those projectiles and a sample of the 4 layers of denim as a 'batch' for my collection. But it has to be the usual gel blocks, in terms of composition and thickness. It seems that DBR and I can both contribute to this one as we both want the same thing.

[High Planes Drifter]

One more point re 3x6x16 blocks: it is my understanding that if the gel block is too narrow it may expand excessively from the temporary cavity and give inaccurate bullet expansion results.

Are you saying you feel the 3x6x16 blocks would be too narrow?

[slow944]

+1 for what MikePGS said.

[DBR]

High Planes Drifter:

Yes, I think 3x6x16 is too thin. I also think JE223 will lose a lot of bullets out the sides. IIRC the FBI uses 10x10x24 blocks in a temperature controlled test room.

No one said gel testing done correctly is cheap or easy. To save on the gel and risk the validity of the results after all of the other effort is spent seems false economy to me.

[JE223]

@Odd Job - I would be happy to do all of that.

@DBR - I don't mind making blocks that big, but I would ask you to pay for the mold and the increased quantity of gelatin powder used to make an individual block.

[DBR]

JE223:

I'm not suggesting you make FBI sized blocks; only that if several of us are going to fund the kind of test that is being discussed we should do it right or not at all. Your 6x6 blocks seemed to be OK in your past tests. My doubts are about the 3x6 size. If others disagree with me everyone is free to vote with their willingness to support the effort.

It seems if this is going to go anywhere there needs to be a list of the ammo to be tested, the cost and the number of folks willing to support the effort. If the tests are agreed to then I think costs should be shared equally.

My concern about single shot tests is from following Ammo Labs tests. They involved 5 shot samples IIRC and there were a number of bullet designs that had several failures out of the sample. The consistency of performance is certainly important info for me.

[DBR]

At the risk of attracting the derision of some, there are many gel test results available on:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/

I think they can be viewed using the "search" function. I don't think you have to register to access them.

The tests are not all as rigorous as those done by JE223 but I have found them useful.

[MassMark]

JE223 - What are we talking about cost wise to run what you believe to be ideal tests? Your testing has been thus far impressive and informative. Perhaps we could consider this a "group buy on research" ?

[JE223]

Here is my idea as far as the number of blocks goes :

To avoid having another mold made up, I can use the regular pistol blocks. I figure that two calibers can be fit on each block, up to .357MAG. Under that 'oomph' level, two rounds from each caliber can be fit on the edges and one round on the center. If round A & B are shot into one block, it can be arranged like this :

A B
X
A B

With 'X' being either one of the two rounds that needed to either be reshot or was picked by consensus (on THR) as being a round where people wanted 3 data points. This way, there are two faces to the gelatin block that illustrate the difference between the two tested calibers. I'm thinking then about making a 'collage' of the blocks/calibers in order using Photoshop, etc.

The cost to make one such gelatin block (minus my time) is about 75 dollars.

[High Planes Drifter]

so we'll need, I'm guessing, 4 blocks?

[MassMark]

Well, if 38 Speer GDHP 135 +P is in the mix, I'd be glad to contribute to the cost. I have an interest in that round, as that's what I ,(and many others carry). I also own .40 S&W, .357 sig, 9mm and .45ACP - so the results would be interesting there as well.

JE223 - If you feel that multiple rounds into single blocks will adequately represent penetration, then it sounds fine to me....